There's Another Huge Right To Repair Fight Brewing In Massachusetts (thedrive.com) 117
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Drive: Whether or not you live in Massachusetts, you should be paying attention to a very important vote coming up in November's election. Not for president, or senator, or even city council -- no, Question 1 is a proposition that could dramatically strengthen or weaken the state's landmark right-to-repair law that previously forced automakers to make it easier for you to get your car fixed. Essentially, Massachusetts voters are deciding on whether or not to add "mechanical" vehicle telematics data -- realtime updates from a car's sundry sensors transmitted to an automaker's private servers -- to the list of things OEMs have to share with independent mechanics. Telematics data was purposefully excluded from the original 2013 law, but as cars have gotten more computerized over the last decade, that gap in coverage has grown more pronounced.
The full information about what is appearing on the ballot can be found here. Voting "Yes" to Question 1 would expand access to wirelessly transmitted mechanical data regarding vehicle maintenance and repair. But what makes this a big deal for those outside Massachusetts is that the amendment will require automakers who want to do business in the state to make that data accessible through a smartphone app for owners starting in 2022. Remember, it was the 2013 law's passage that forced automakers to adopt a nationwide right-to-repair standard. Could the same happen with open-access telematics data, which will only grow in importance as more cars add on driver-assist features? Pro-Question 1 organization Massachusetts Right to Repair argues the amendment would futureproof the law for consumers and independent repair shops beyond the state's borders. "Voting 'No' would make no change to governing access over wirelessly transmitted vehicle data, meaning automakers would be under no obligation to provide a standard that consumers could use to analyze diagnostic information other than what is currently provided through the vehicle's OBDII port," adds The Drive.
"[T]he Coalition for Safe and Secure Data has shelled out at least $25.8 million to oppose Question 1, reportedly receiving large seven-figure donations from General Motors, Toyota, Ford, Honda and Nissan. Go figure."
The full information about what is appearing on the ballot can be found here. Voting "Yes" to Question 1 would expand access to wirelessly transmitted mechanical data regarding vehicle maintenance and repair. But what makes this a big deal for those outside Massachusetts is that the amendment will require automakers who want to do business in the state to make that data accessible through a smartphone app for owners starting in 2022. Remember, it was the 2013 law's passage that forced automakers to adopt a nationwide right-to-repair standard. Could the same happen with open-access telematics data, which will only grow in importance as more cars add on driver-assist features? Pro-Question 1 organization Massachusetts Right to Repair argues the amendment would futureproof the law for consumers and independent repair shops beyond the state's borders. "Voting 'No' would make no change to governing access over wirelessly transmitted vehicle data, meaning automakers would be under no obligation to provide a standard that consumers could use to analyze diagnostic information other than what is currently provided through the vehicle's OBDII port," adds The Drive.
"[T]he Coalition for Safe and Secure Data has shelled out at least $25.8 million to oppose Question 1, reportedly receiving large seven-figure donations from General Motors, Toyota, Ford, Honda and Nissan. Go figure."
What's the actual data, though? (Score:4, Insightful)
What data is there to be accessed?
Not that it really matters, IMHO it should be available anyway regardless, but I'm more curious what data is being sent back to the manufacturer and if/how it differs from data available via the OBD port...
=Smidge=
Re:What's the actual data, though? (Score:4, Informative)
Probably a ton. A good example would be wheel speed sensors... using commercial readers, all I could find on a 2008 RAV4 was "Wheel speed sensor malfunction." Taking it to a tech who had access to Toyota's shop program, though, gave us the raw data stream for all four sensors in realtime as we drove it, so we could see exactly which sensor had gone bad. The same sensor a dealer had replaced only a year earlier...
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I didn't realize that new cars were transmitting data to the manufacturer, nor that they were able to wirelessly push stuff to your car.
I knew the Tesla did that, but not normal cars.
Is there not a simple way to get into your own car and disconnect/disable this transmitter?
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A lot of new cars offer telematics and have the hardware (cellular radios) to provide communication. I'm sure you've heard of OnStar?
As far as I know, only Tesla pushes updates to the car... everyone else requires a dealer visit. However, once the telematics hardware is installed it's not super difficult for the manufacturer to harvest data logs.
I suspect the only reason more manufacturers don't do over the air updates is partly because there's a risk of something going wrong in the process, and partly beca
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As far as I know, only Tesla pushes updates to the car... everyone else requires a dealer visit
My Chevy Bolt has a wifi client which can be used for upgrades, but I don't think they are ever pushed... you have to request them from the touchscreen.
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In the next release, having the transmitter disabled for more than 24 hours bricks the car.
There is no escape from the Internet Of Things.
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Is there not a simple way to get into your own car and disconnect/disable this transmitter?
Just wrap your car in a giant tinfoil hat.
Re:What's the actual data, though? (Score:4, Informative)
Is there not a simple way to get into your own car and disconnect/disable this transmitter?
Many / most wireless devices, including cell phones and cell network communication circuits, use dielectric (ceramic) resonators for antennas. They're very small and just look like a longish ceramic SMD (Surface Mount Device) capacitor.
Following is a fairly small .pdf showing some engineering and sizes, and I've seen them much much smaller- on the order of maybe 8 mm long by 3 mm wide.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.491.888&rep=rep1&type=pdf [psu.edu]
Here are some actual ones- there are many many other manufacturers:
https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/antenova-embedded/22257 [digikey.com]
So, you'll have to find that tiny thing and hope it doesn't have an accident. ;) (wink wink nudge nudge)
And then hope its inability to phone home to mommy doesn't disable your car.
Re:What's the actual data, though? (Score:4, Informative)
Other cars used to make that information available through the diagnostics port connected to the CAN bus, but when Mass and others required that they open up about the diagnostics port, they started moving things to wireless transmission to dodge the law on a technicality. They want you to pay for all this stuff but not benefit from it unless you pay them more through the authorized repair programs.
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My friends will love wireless access to your car (Score:2, Informative)
> IMHO it should be available anyway regardless
Hmm, maybe. Three of my friends hack cars for a living. They find the security vulnerabilities in cars, trucks, busses, etc. This law says that instead of plugging in to the standard ODB2 port, from now on they'll be able to park nearby and wirelessly connect to your car. They're going to love that.
For $10 you can buy an ODB2 to Bluetooth adapter. I have one. I plug it into my car's ODB2 port, then the data streams to my laptop over Bluetooth. When I'm d
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> This law says that instead of plugging in to the standard ODB2 port, from now on they'll be able to park nearby and wirelessly connect to your car. They're going to love that.
My take is this data is *already* being transmitted, so I don't think this is the issue. The issue is the manufacturer records it all and doesn't let you access it. In other words, it seems less about getting live data from the car at any given time, and more about accessing the data records that the manufacturer has been collecti
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Well if insurance companies are increasing their rates using collected data, then it's not "arbitrary" is it? Privacy concerns or not, seems the remedy for this concern is to not drive like a jackass who warrants charging more for insurance.
The flip side is, what if the data shows that I drive carefully and sensibly? Can I qualify for a discount on my insurance? I might opt-in for that...
=Smidge=
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My reading of the proposal, emphasizing the parts I feel are important, is that it mandates that the owner gets access to the information that is already wirelessly transmitted to the dealer.
Starting with model year 2022, the proposed law would require manufacturers of motor vehicles sold in Massachusetts to equip any such vehicles that use telematics systems –- systems that collect and wirelessly transmit mechanical data to a remote server –- with a standardized open access data platform. Owners of motor vehicles with telematics systems would get access to mechanical data through a mobile device application.
That's /. summary, not what the proposed law says (Score:2)
That's what the Slashdot summary says. Here's what the proposed law says:
--
âoeMechanical dataâ, any vehicle-specific data, including
telematics system data, generated, stored in or transmitted
by a motor vehicle used for or otherwise related to the
diagnosis, repair or maintenance of the vehicle.
--
Any data generated by the car. Yes including telematics as well (data that is sent to the manufacturer), but not only that - ALL data generated by the car, so everything that is available via the physical
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Question 1 on the ballot states:
Starting with model year 2022, the proposed law
would require manufacturers of motor vehicles
sold in Massachusetts to equip any such vehicles
that use telematics systems –- systems that
collect and wirelessly transmit mechanical data
to a remote server –- with a standardized open
access data platform.
***Note: quote taken directly from the linked PDF "Massachusetts INFORMATION FOR VOTERS"
It does not state that the vehicle has to have these wireless data systems just that if they do have them then the data has to be in a "standardized open
access data" format. Car manufacturers are already broadcasting data. If your friends really wanted to I'm sure they could intercept this data. Currently they may not be able to easily decipher the data but if they are already "hacking" ca
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Keep reading the same document (Score:2)
Keep reading down past the summary into the actual text of the law.
It says that if a vehicle sends any information (has telematics)
then
All information generated on the vehicle whether it's telematics or not, must be broadcast to a mobile app.
See the definition of "mechanical information" in the actual text of the proposed law. It's the law that matters, not the for and against arguments included in the voter guide.
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I don't see "broadcast" in the text of the law. It could be getting the data off a cloud server where it had already been collected, or... not positive but.. it could be a hardware "platform" like a bus reader. I'm not particularly fond of the requirement for a "mobile-based application" but that's not a deal killer IMO.
Such platform shall be capable of securely communicating all mechanical data emanating directly from the motor vehicle via direct data connecti onto the platform.Such platform shall be directly accessible by the owner of the vehicle through a mobile-based application and, upon the authorization of the vehicle owner, all mechanical data shall be directly accessible by an independent repair facility or a class1 dealer
So data goes to "platform", and then to "mobile-based application".
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> It could be getting the data off a cloud server
> So data goes to "platform", and then to "mobile-based application".
Which would require that all of the CAN bus data be on cloud server (or other platform). Unless you drive around with an Ethernet cable attached to your car, that means it has to be broadcast wirelessly.
Similar intent would be achieved more safely by either or both of these laws:
All data which is sent to the manufacturer (or their agent) shall be available to the vehicle owner via a we
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I think the auto makers are given flexibility to choose between these models. Again, the only "broadcasts" that would happen are already happening... communication of telemetry data. They could also elect not to collect such data wirelessly. They could send normal telemetry data during normal operaton and allow upload of a diagnostic dump to that server by request and then allow it to be retrieved. They could do half and half with both a bus reader and a website. The proposed law demands that if they c
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No, it just says that if it's generated, stored, or transmitted, it must be accessible via an app. It doesn't say that the app must be able to access the data wirelessly. Making it available via ODBII and supplying an ODB-to-USB(or lightning) cable would satisfy that requ
Re:My friends will love wireless access to your ca (Score:4, Insightful)
You are a bit confused about the order of operations. The wireless capability was installed partly for convenience and data skimming, but also because Right to Repair was specifically addressing hard ODB connections. The automakers are trying to do an end around by going wireless. The fact that they are promoting the insecurity of their systems as a reason to veto the Massachusetts RTR law update is particularly egregious. (strong parallels to the current Supreme Court flap, but that is another story)
The concept that hackers will be thwarted by voting this law update down is amusing at best.
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They're not mandating that anything at all be transmitted wirelessly, just that if it is, the owner has a right to access it.
One way to comply would be to rip out the transmitter(s) and put all of the data on the ODB2 port and document it.
Re:What's the actual data, though? (Score:4, Informative)
OBDII was set in stone back in the 90's. Back then car electronics were far simpler and more limited in what they could measure and store. It didn't take long before they were capable of surpassing the spec. It was pretty much immediate. Ever since there's been two tiers to reading a factory ecu. The mandated ODBII codes which are standardized between all manufacturers but very very limited and vague, and proprietary telematic and diagnostic data.
For anyone who has owned a Mercedes this side of 1997 they have probably heard of the STAR system which is MB's proprietary implementation. These machines are not sold to the public and only officially made available to dealers however independent mechanics sometimes manage to get their hands on them. They allow for much more indepth diagnostics and even allow reprogramming certain features. Every automaker has something like this. With time the issue has only gotten worse because now the cars will wirelessly report the data back to the OEM with a cell modem meaning there is no physical diagnostic computer for a mechanic to get their hands on. Its all reported to their servers and then sent to the dealer mechanics to review.
This new law would require opening up those proprietary extensions that have been locked up for 23 years and make that data available to everyone. Which is the way it should have always been.
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I bought one of the Chinese clones for the special Volvo code reader. It works with Volvo's own software and let you read all the little details from every system. That said I've seen a car with so many problems as that 1998 S80.
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The Chinese clone reader probably is the real thing, since Volvo is now Chinese. Kind of like how a handful of Chrysler vehicles went to using the DRB3 that you need to talk to the T1N Sprinter, because Chrysler was really German. Enjoy your Geely.
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While they are now, 1998 Volvo isn't Chinese. They were sold after that. I wouldn't buy a Geely one though.
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But Volvo is Chinese, and the reader you bought would still have to work with the pre-Chinese vehicles as well.
Though I think the situation's improved a lot - OBD scanners vary. The cheap $20 units you find the store do basically standard and well known codes. You can invest in brand specific $100-500 readers that are app based and basically deal with one or two brands.
Mechanics though often buy $5000+
Proper encryption will put and end to that (Score:2)
It goes wirelessly to the manufacturer. Using the manufacturer's public key. Nothing to reverse engineer.
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The thing is nearly every automotive company is copying as much as Tesla as possible. A Tesla Car is a Computer with a large case that can drive. (Much like how your smartphone, is a Camera and a small computer, with the ability to do phone call as an add on feature)
There are a low of low hanging fruit that Car Companies can copy off of Tesla, which includes over the air updates, as well being to collect data and transmit it back to the automaker.
The OBD port, will often just give the status of the compone
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Also, to know where and when you drive, so that they can target advertising to you.
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Apple (Score:1)
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There are big differences between a Smartphone and an Automobile.
* The number of moving parts. Every moving part is something that can fail.
* Extreme Conditions. Being kept in -20F - 120F temperature areas, ready to startup on a whim. Driving in all weather conditions... With an engine that works by making small explosions.
* Price even for someone who is tight on money loosing $1k to a lost or broken phone that cannot be fixed is often not enough to bankrupt them. While paying many thousands of dollars
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There are big differences between a Smartphone and an Automobile.
After I make you pop the hood of a Tesla (also known as what every future car looks like), I'll make you show me the difference.
Old-fashioned Ignorance, will get you fucking nowhere in the future.
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Well there may be some groceries in the hood of the Tesla. As it doesn't have an engine, but Electric Motors that are placed closer to the wheels, and take up less space in general, than a full engine.
That doesn't say you cannot or shouldn't be able to repair a Tesla. There is aspects of the technology that can make it more dangerous and difficult to fix it though. Risk of electrocution, is a big one. Also the motors are made to tight tolerances.
However this is a case that people don't know how to fix a
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I'm not buying the risk of electrocution thing considering that cars have had the risk of severe burns and dismemberment under the hood since forever. Not to mention crush injuries if you work on the underside.
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I'm not buying the risk of electrocution thing considering that cars have had the risk of severe burns and dismemberment under the hood since forever. Not to mention crush injuries if you work on the underside.
I'm not buying the risk of explosion thing. Just because this ICE car carries a tank full of gasoline doesn't mean it's any more dangerous than this lighter in my pocket.
Ah, nothing like arguing about the dangers of pop rocks vs. hand grenades...
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So would you characterize the risk of explosion as a reason people should be prevented from repairing their own car?
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Well there may be some groceries in the hood of the Tesla. As it doesn't have an engine, but Electric Motors that are placed closer to the wheels, and take up less space in general, than a full engine.
That doesn't say you cannot or shouldn't be able to repair a Tesla. There is aspects of the technology that can make it more dangerous and difficult to fix it though. Risk of electrocution, is a big one. Also the motors are made to tight tolerances. However this is a case that people don't know how to fix an electric car, vs what they know about ICE cars. With some experience and understanding you should be able to fix a Tesla as well. It will be different.
Grabbing a wiring schematic and meter instead of a 7/16" wrench? Different, doesn't even begin to describe it, especially for mechanics. You're asking a butcher to become a TV repairman.
There are some breakdowns of the Tesla on YouTube also some people who find scrapped Teslas (often from accidents collect parts and build themselves a new one)
In high school, a few seniors were tearing apart a 1970s Oldsmobile in shop class. They were able to completely rebuild it (with obviously some assistance from the educators, true).
As opposed to the 0.00001% of society who has the brainpower, tools, and capacity, to rebuild a Tesla safely.
Maintaining our cars is going to
What about privacy? (Score:3, Interesting)
Hypothetical example: Hiring a software engineer, HR wants to establish diligence. They write down your car's VIN number (it is displayed in the corner of windshield) and then run it through this database to check how often you change engine oil. They reason, if you neglect your own car you will also neglect your job.
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A code permanently tied to the secrecy your VIN number? This is a car manufacturer we're talking about here, not a maker of $1 luggage locks.
They can do things like print a scratch-to-reveal secret code in your car's manual. This can be alphanumeric or even a QR code that your mobile app directly reads. It will cost them all of $.35. A slightly more expansive version would display a series of time-limited one-time codes in your dash console, giving your mechanic temporary access to the same data.
The car man
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My guess is that auto manufacturers will allow mechanics to register online and then have access to VIN search to all data, including GPS data. Intentionally. Then once a scandal inevitably happens, they wil
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The photo studios owned the copyrights to your photos.
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Unless you make an agreement for them to not do so.
We can reject the terms and conditions and negotiate a new one if they don't suit us. We normally don't bother because it is a lot of work for both sides, and often means we will be paying more. However if it is important, then you should make sure you understand what you read and agree too.
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I told the photographer that his pictures were a "work for hire". If he wanted paid, I owned the copyright. If he didn't want paid, he could have the copyright.
Eventually, he agreed to take my picture, if I paid him. And I got the negatives.
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Well, I guess that depends on how it works.
Being able to enter a VIN into a database and pull out every error message, oil change, and maintnance report for the past X years is a much different situation than being able to use an App to see what error messages and vehicle data it is *currently* reporting. Is tracking the last oil change even a thing for most vehicles? I routinely do my own oil, and as far as I know there's no software/electrical component to my process. (I know that some vehicles have menus
on line don't want an forced data plan / maybe rom (Score:2)
on line don't want an forced data plan / maybe roaming fees say on page 154 it say if us car is used outside of usa for more then X time in an mouth you may be changed data roaming on diag data.
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A VIN wouldn't be a problem in the least), having access to it would be a good identifier but a worthless authenticator.
Currently, automotive industry uses VIN as both identifier and as part of authentication. When you buy car parts, pull service history or do a title search you only need VIN. This was historically fine, as the car didn't know much about you. Then manufacturers started locking in car parts to VIN, where pretty much any controller or processing unit (e.g. ECU) has to be "coded" to work with the car and they kept using VINs. There were a few scandals were rogue employees coded security keys to VINs that car th
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I agree, I'm definitely not a fan of the automotive industry's security practices. And if they take the easiest possible exit (ex. A website where inputing a VIN gives all data collected by the car over the course of its history), then I would expect that they run afoul of some sort of privacy laws, somewhere.
And the issue with self-driving cars I think is a separate issue. Giving mechanics access to car telemetry should never involve the car accepting external commands. I could see how mechanics giving suc
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Europe.
In the USA, you have the right to get shafted.
They'll make you give them access (Score:2)
When you go for a job, a standard question will be the security codes for your car so they can check the history.
You do not need to give to them, unless you want the job.
Most people will roll over, as normal. What's there to hide, and they want the job.
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Do they also write down your PIN number and use it at the ATM machine?
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or They reason, if you pay dealer rates for your car service you will also not look for the best deals / ideas (just go in line with the vendor) on things as part of your job.
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That is the tough way of dealing with that particular problem.
When I was consulting, I needed to drive all the time. The company I worked for paid me $500 a month towards car expenses. I was allowed to pocket the cash, however saying my car was broken wasn't an excuse to miss a job, and having a broken car could lead to corrective action or dismissal. (normally my bosses were cool if it was something like a flat tire, on the way, or something unexpected happening, but if it became a trend then they would
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run it through this database to check how often you change engine oil
I change my own oil. I've got some scare stories about the quicky-lube joints that would make your hair fall out.
Oh, I see you've heard them already.
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I am concerned about making remotely collected data available to just about anyone
The problem is not right to repair. The problem is the data collection and trying to connect everything to the Internet.
Whether you vote yes or no, the data collection will remain a problem, but if you vote yes, you'll at least KNOW what data they're collecting and that makes it easier to object to them spying on you in the first place. It'll at least make it easier for me to make a purchasing decision, so I know who the worst offenders are.
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My understanding that this is not about expanding what must be available to OBD tools, but rather mandate to provide third-party access to "data in the cloud".
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This is missing the point. This ballot measure isn't expecting to solve all the technical challenges or scope; it is simply stating that mechanics that the vehicle owner authorizes to access the data should have access to all the mechanical data that can be used to diagnose what is wrong with the car.
This is policy, or principle, if you prefer. The policy is the high level decision that car owners should be the one deciding who has access to their car's telemetry, and that it isn't just some eternal syphon
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What about Electric Vehicles?
I suspect that if they have your VIN, they'd know it was an EV and what its service requirements were.
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Which is what will happen.
Cars (Score:3)
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Are there any cars that are just cars these days?
Yes, anything made before 2005, but it can be as new as 2015 depending on make and model. New cars? Not so much.
Re:Cars (Score:4, Informative)
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Most of the body sheet sheet metal and doors (the hood being the only real exception to this)
The frame (these first two being no different, in that respect, than a unibody, when combined, constituting most of 'the car')
The trunk lid - surely someone could make a fiberglass/carbon fiber lid, but i've never seen one.
By now, I think I've seen non-OE replacements for just about every othe
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Every car made since ODBII logs things like panic stops or revving too high. The latter is especially useful on cars that can easily over rev like a turbo Porsche.
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Incorrect on multiple counts, logging panic stops and overrevs is a relatively recent feature, few cars made before 2010 or so would have this. Also I don't think there are any OBD2 cars that don't have a rev limiter - although, again, some more recent cars will log high rev events even below the limiter and use this to deny warranty claims (Even Lotus)! Also Turbo Porsches don't rev particularly quickly for a sports car. In fact, only a few very high-end sports cars and supercars have really fast-revving e
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Oh, some other recent supercars with very fast-revving engines would include the Apollo IE, GMD T.50, and Aston-Martin Valkyrie. Each of these engines cost 6 digits, and the Valkyrie's requires frequent rebuilds like an F1 engine.
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No you're wrong. I was seeing data about panic stops on my 1996 Integra. The Porsche 996 revs pretty fast once the turbo kicks in. See for yourself http://www.911virgin.com/porsc... [911virgin.com] The 996 which was sold from 1997 onwards.
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A weapon is a tool, and a tool is a weapon. (Score:2)
We have been stressing out on how the new tools can be used as a weapon, and defaulting to no we do not want such tools. Vs. Understanding how the can be used as a weapon and making sure there are open and proper safeguards to prevent them from being misused.
Laws on Data your car provides, cannot be used to reject a claim, or charge extra for it. However it can be used to help diagnose and fix a problem.
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Laws on Data your car provides, cannot be used to reject a claim,
It's a pre-existing condition. I demand it be covered under the ACA.
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We have car insurance. As well warranty information.
Also the pre-exisitng condition for the ACA isn't about rejecting a claim, but more from being able to buy health insurance.
Say a person with Cancer may be stuck at a job that under pays them, or treats them like crap. If they switch jobs they can get new insurance. Vs the Insurance Company saying you no longer have insurance, because you are considered too expensive.
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Not new ones, no.
Like sibling says you need a pre-OBD-II car for that.
If you can find one, I suggest a 1995 240SX Coupe, or an earlier 240SX fastback. 30MPG freeway, absolutely phenomenal handling (front mcpherson should be a weak point but isn't; rear is 5-way multilink) has the DOHC motor but with a simple OBD-I Hitachi PCM. CONSULT interface permits dicking around with timing and whatnot, it's just smart enough to be fiddled with. Decent safety, including a long bonnet.
But every car with OBD-II does a lo
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Re: The real head-scratcher in all of this (Score:2)
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So, RMS has been right all along (Score:5, Insightful)
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RMS has been pushing for Open Source vs Open Specifications. Running of the idea if you had access to the source code you can automatically know what the specification on what is provided. This isn't the case, as the Source Code can run differently on different platforms, or data coded in a way that is difficult to expect the outcome. Where a will documented Specification that explains everything is far more valuable.
RMS seems to right on identifying the problem, however the solutions he offers are usuall
Your Data, Your Right. (Score:2)
I would rather (Score:3)
They just mandate that all diagnostic data and ecu functions be transparent and accessible to owners instead of mandating a smartphone app. If you mandate the data be open then someone will make an app for people to use if they want. If you mandate an app then there are many ways for the auto makers to weasel it. They could simply make a really shitty app that isn't reliable or accurate enough to be useful. There's also the security concerns of wirelessly broadcasting diagnostics and telemetry.
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They just mandate that all diagnostic data and ecu functions be transparent and accessible to owners instead of mandating a smartphone app. If you mandate the data be open then someone will make an app for people to use if they want. If you mandate an app then there are many ways for the auto makers to weasel it. They could simply make a really shitty app that isn't reliable or accurate enough to be useful. There's also the security concerns of wirelessly broadcasting diagnostics and telemetry.
Or, they could just do the painfully predictable thing that Greed does, and charge several hundred dollars for that "mandatory" app, and make it shitty (read: consumer) enough that you're still forced to take the car to a stealership profit center, where all the "pros" and their 15HP wallet vacuums work.
Telematics (Score:2)
Telematics data was purposefully excluded from the original 2013 law, but as cars have gotten more computerized over the last decade, that gap in coverage has grown more pronounced.
Computers were *already* heavily computerized in 2013. When I was working on in-vehicle electronics in 2002, most cars we worked on had extensive in-vehicle control networks, to the point each door had it's own micro-controller sitting on CAN bus to control the rear-view mirror motor, windows and door locks. This was a big deal, as if you were testing a new radio and it didn't pass along messages properly, you'd get weird problems, like the motorized seats would stop working, or the left-hand turn signal wo
smartphone app = apple get's 30% of car price wait (Score:1)
smartphone app = apple get's 30% of car price wait that sounds like something they can use to shut this down (there in house techs can corp app store side load)
Lets see... (Score:1)
Why do politicians listen to lobbyists? (Score:2)
I get that these companies are 'donating' (that is, paying legalized bribes) to political campaigns, but at what point has lobby money come from a place of genuine interest in the public good? Why would you ever take this money, knowing full well that whatever thing is being asked of you would definitely make the lives of your constituents worse? No matter how righteous a company seems—oil companies, car companies, tech companies, they're all alike in this regard—they never, ever propose anythin
Available through cell phones? No. (Score:2)
Making the data available to cell phones? I am willing to bet that everyone will insist the data go through some sort of cloud, and that creates so many security risks and privacy-tracking risks. The data should be available if I, say, plug my USB key into the car and enter the car's password to download it, but I'm a bit leery of it being required to broadcast out. Maybe there's a path where "I plug my cell phone physically into the car and so I can get the data on my phone", but I don't want the remote ac
Re: (Score:2)
My telematics module is broken. My phone can't read it. What do?
Re: Available through cell phones? No. (Score:2)
Put the USB key in to download. Or plug in your laptop. Or any other device. Sending through the cloud is not the answer.
We need the Admin password (Score:2)
...of our car's router.
Re: (Score:2)
Smartphone only? (Score:2)
If this law only allows the driver to get this information via a piece of software on their phone, that excludes tens of millions of drivers. Like me.
The law should have been written to allow both physical and wireless access. After all, how difficult is it to plug in a usb cable to get this information to your real computer?
That we even have this nonsense of the manufacturer spying on you is a separate issue.
How about NO 'telematics'? (Score:2)
Think black box data transmitted to other parties (Score:2)
Imagine if your data was wirelessly transmitted to the manufacturer, and it included information about:
Your engine specs and operating conditions
Acceleration and deceleration values (including hard acceleration or hard braking)
Road speeds (and speed zones)
G-forces from hard cornering or braking, or during accidents.
Seat-belt and occupancy (seat weight) conditions
previous X minutes (or continuous/intermittent wireless traffic) showing any deviation from straight line driving or corrective measures (people wh
Re: (Score:2)
It's already available to all of the above parties (i.e., hackers and people who will pay for it). The only people it's not readily available to are independent repair shops and you.