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Government Security Software United States Politics

West Virginia To Introduce Mobile Phone Voting For Midterm Elections (cnn.com) 215

West Virginians serving overseas will be the first in the country to cast federal election ballots using a smartphone app, a move designed to make voting in November's election easier for troops living abroad. But election integrity and computer security experts expressed alarm at the prospect of voting by phone, and one went so far as to call it "a horrific idea." CNN: The state's decision to pioneer mobile voting comes even as the United States grapples with Russian interference in its elections. A recent federal indictment outlined Russia's attempts to hack US voting infrastructure during the 2016 presidential race, and US intelligence agencies have warned of Russian attempts to interfere with the upcoming midterm election. Still, West Virginia Secretary of State Mac Warner and Voatz, the Boston company that developed the app, insist it is secure. Anyone using it must first register by taking a photo of their government-issued identification and a selfie-style video of their face, then upload them via the app. Voatz says its facial recognition software will ensure the photo and video show the same person. Once approved, voters can cast their ballot using the Voatz app.
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West Virginia To Introduce Mobile Phone Voting For Midterm Elections

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  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:06AM (#57085682)

    Now we don't even need to get influence from abroad, we can simply let them hack the devices and vote directly.

    Cut out the middle man, it's the capitalist way!

    • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:18AM (#57085770)

      and your boss can force you to vote there way in the office or your fired.

      • by greenwow ( 3635575 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:26AM (#57085846)

        Same with voting by mail here in Washington state. Twice my employer has asked for signed blank ballots.

        • by CanHasDIY ( 1672858 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:41AM (#57085976) Homepage Journal

          Seriously?

          Have you reported them to the authorities? Pretty sure such electoral subversion is a felony.

          • But is it illegal to let someone else tell you who to vote for?

            We had a meeting yesterday where our CEO went over who to vote for. I think most people just did what they were told. Our ballots are due today. I think most people just did what they were told to since, for example, who is going to do the research to pick from 30 different senate primary candidates? Thirty!

            • by Geoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @12:31PM (#57086432) Homepage

              But is it illegal to let someone else tell you who to vote for?

              No: what's illegal is coercion, or attempts to intimidate or threaten a voter to vote a particular way. https://www.law.cornell.edu/us... [cornell.edu]

              We had a meeting yesterday where our CEO went over who to vote for. I think most people just did what they were told. Our ballots are due today. I think most people just did what they were told to

              That might be a grey area; since the CEO presumably has hiring and firing authority over the workers, so you could see it as maybe edging toward coercion. I'd say that, given a secret ballot, it's not coercion, since they can't actually tell whether you vote as they suggest or not. But, of course, a non-secret ballot makes coercion a lot more practical.

              since, for example, who is going to do the research to pick from 30 different senate primary candidates? Thirty!

        • by XXongo ( 3986865 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @12:52PM (#57086612) Homepage

          Same with voting by mail here in Washington state. Twice my employer has asked for signed blank ballots.

          Wow, that is seriously illegal.

          Next time it happens, document it and put their ass in jail.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          An app could actually help you here. It could have a "duress mode" where it casts a fake ballot and records video with the camera, so when you boss is checking to make sure you voted the way they want it's also gathering evidence of their crime.

          Of course the real app won't have that, but certainly will be riddled with security flaws. Place your bets now, I'll put five bucks on using HTTP to submit votes.

      • vote there way in the office or your fired.

        their*, you're*

      • Horrible idea (Score:2, Interesting)

        by XXongo ( 3986865 )
        Oh, man, what a horribly stupid idea this is. They want voting on insecure systems to use insecure networks to tally votes onto insecure platforms, and all with no paper trail.

        Politicians in West Virginia have never heard of hax0rz? Or are they deliberately trying to make elections hackable?

        Everybody from West Virginia: write to WB Secretary of State Mac Warner, and tell him that this is stupid, stupid, stupid.

        • by Zumbs ( 1241138 )
          The lack of paper trail and the fact that the system can be hacked is bad in itself. But it also introduces another fundamental problem: Voting stops being a private affair. Someone could look over your shoulder and try to strong arm you into voting what ever they want.
          • There is an even bigger problem. Voting stops being an auditable affair. With pen and paper, anyone (eligible, ok, not just any bozo on the street) can demand a recount and it's actually possible to do one, and whoever should do it does not require any special knowledge or training. Ability to see where the X is and the ability to count is all that's required.

            Any kind of machine dependent voting introduces an element that makes auditing the process harder, to the point where it may be completely impossible

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by 1ucius ( 697592 )

        >and your boss can force you to vote there way in the office or your fired.

        It also enables pay-for-votes (the de facto limiting factor has been the inability to confirm someone voted a certain way)

        In big races, they already spend a few hundred dollars per voter in advertising. Direct payments would be a lot more effective.

        • And also a lot more sensible. Let's be honest here, voting has been reduced to a dog-and-pony show anyway, if people at least got a few bucks out of it it would still serve a meaningful purpose.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      It would remove many of the traditional voter fraud issues.
      Have to be a US citizen.
      Have to have real photo ID and a real face to connect to that ID.
      Address, age, birth date, place of birth, residence can then be discovered back into other state gov networks.
      A "hacked" ID would not match a person. A random person would not match any of the data on the ID with a photo.
      None of their other ID, face, tax, healthcare use, employment status, occupation, education, property tax, medical history, tax forms, an
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        And, as a bonus, it would let you trace an individual face to a specific vote! Wow! What a great idea.

        Oh, wait.

        • It's easy to track that a person voted while not tracking who they voted for.

          Proving that the person running the voting app is actually the american citizen they claim to be is more difficult. It's not that I don't think it can be done. I just don't trust that our political figures have enough technical knowledge to choose software that is secure.

          • I just don't trust that our political figures have enough technical knowledge to choose software that is secure.

            I don't trust our "political figures" to have enough technical knowledge about anything other than getting elected to do anything meaningful in office.

            Which is why we have various departments, bureaus, and offices in government filled with technically knowledgeable individuals, each with his own field of expertise, to advise the politicians about technical matters of which they (the pols) know l

          • by 1ucius ( 697592 )

            It's a bad idea for other reasons, but in fairness ... they probably will store the proof-of-identity info, so it's auditable. Or at least more auditable than traditional paper voter rolls.

      • It would remove many of the traditional voter fraud issues.

        Indeed, it would remove some minor flaws and things that don't actually happen, and replace them with major flaws and the possible of wholesale election theft.

        Have to be a US citizen.

        You have to be a U.S. citizen to register in the first place.

        Have to have real photo ID and a real face to connect to that ID.

        The belief that people vote under fake names has never been shown to have any basis in actual facts.

        Address, age, birth date, place of birth, residence can then be discovered back into other state gov networks.

        This is more easily done in the voter registration process, not in real-time during the voting.

        A "hacked" ID would not match a person. A random person would not match any of the data on the ID with a photo. None of their other ID, face, tax, healthcare use, employment status, occupation, education, property tax, medical history, tax forms, any criminal/court history would match for that given "hacked" ID in that state. A random face does not give an extra vote as they would have not history in that state. The same face cant vote many times under new fake names. Fake ID and shared ID, created ID for the election would be fictional/not fit with any other data sets in the state. That would have to fit with one real human face of the same age on the ID.

        All of these are better done during the voting registration process, not during the actual votin

        • by 1ucius ( 697592 )

          >The belief that people vote under fake names has never been shown to have any basis in actual facts.

          That's not really relevant to the issue at hand. The key is the appearance of impropriety, not whether or not it actually occurred.

        • All of these are better done during the voting registration process, not during the actual voting.

          There are lots of validation steps that need to be done during the registration process, not during the actual voting. 1. Are you a citizen? 2. Do you live in this voting district? 3. Are you registered to vote in any other district? 4. Are you over the age of X? 5. Are you a felon who is prohibited from voting? All things that need to be done during registration -- but even then can be faked.

          But then, none of that matters at all if you don't bother to tie the person trying to vote back to the specific reg

          • by jbengt ( 874751 )

            But then, none of that matters at all if you don't bother to tie the person trying to vote back to the specific registration, like with ID.

            But then, voting by phone, even with a face recognition app, does not securely solve that problem, and introduces many more problems, like the ability for the app to be subverted, the possibility of the server to be hacked, the lack of any paper trail to audit, etc.

      • I wonder how hard it would be to have a employee "sick day" app on the phones of every employee that checks for the voter app, and if it doesn't find it then it downloads the voter app and signes you up to vote. Getting a short selfie vid would be easy (company promotion vid?). A "Smart" employer could ensure 100% of his/her voters exerced their voter rights.
    • No kidding. Smartphones are so full of security holes to start with, and where's that statistic about how many smartphones may be part of a botnet right now and the owners of the phones don't even know it? Here's an idea how ths can go wrong: the source of the app itself gets hacked, and the app replaced with a hacked version or a look-alike version, that changes your vote(s) to whatever the hackers want. That'd be my first choice. My next choice would be malware that intercepts the communication from the l
      • Here's an idea how ths can go wrong: the source of the app itself gets hacked, and the app replaced with a hacked version or a look-alike version, that changes your vote(s) to whatever the hackers want.

        Who needs a hacked app . . . ?

        Facebook's current app will do just fine.

        See you in six years, President Zuckerberg . . .

        • *Adding this to the ever-growing list of reasons I don't want a smartphone*

          Really, smartphones are more and more a cancer every year, people would do well to dump them.
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Scroatzilla ( 672804 )

      Coupled with all of the illegal immigrant (plus corpse) votes for Dems, all legal US citizens can now just stay home. Super efficient.

      • The system works!

        And look at the bright side, at least you have voter participation that rivals that of communist Albania with its 105% voter turnout. Ain't that better than the palsy 50% that make it look like nobody gives a fuck about democracy anymore?

  • by spiritplumber ( 1944222 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:08AM (#57085692) Homepage
    wins.
  • by AHuxley ( 892839 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:14AM (#57085740) Journal
    Thats an interesting start.
    It allows any numbers and stats on the issued ID to get some deeper database work as the voters has given their data to the government.
    The unique faces shows the US citizen exists and that their face is connected to presented photo ID.

    This gets around the state trying to collected information about a voter. Trying to find out if they have voted many, many times in the same election.

    The state ID proves citizenship.
    That the ID has not been shared, is not fake.
    That a real US citizen exists once as a voter with that issued ID.
    • Couple of issues.
      1) state ID is not required. A federal ID can be used and that does not prove citizenship.
      2) It is a photo of the ID, pictures of actual id are available and a photo is easy to fake. Even the best of face recognition is bad, and my current federal ID don't look totally like me currently and they are only a few years old.
      3) I guess but with the bad face recognition that cannot be done.

      Luckly this was just more of that standard poor reporting we get from CNN. In reality the state is
      • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        Expect a lot of federal and state ID data validation and reconciliation as its a new system.
        Banking, tax, work records, use of any US unemployment insurance programs in the past. Health care used for "free"?
        Past expected state and federal privacy protections that allowed illegal migrants to keep their photo "ID" may not be as useful as once expected.
        Once voting with an ID that does not link back to any US database using the data listed on the presented ID?
        That fake ID is now linked to a new image of
  • by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:16AM (#57085754)

    Hacking aside.
    The biggest issue I see, is it takes the privacy out of voting.
    We should be able to vote without our pastor looking over our solders judging us, or a Union Rep who may decide that your department may be OK for a layoff so they can bring in other workers. A Boss who may just fire you on the spot...

    Voting our conscious without direct personal repercussion is one of our basic rights. And one of our few powers that we have to actually change those who lead us.

    So the question will be on voting day, how many Church Congregations, Union Meetings, will there be to show people how to use the app.

    • Where do you come up with this? A church isn't even allowed endorse a candidate, but you think they are going to force people to vote a certain way if they can vote via cell phone?
      • They are not allowed. However they happen to align all their positions on things to match a candidate.
        There are plenty of reports where people were punished from the church for voting wrong. For most areas, this isn't a big deal. But some communities are centered around the religion and really put the pressure to vote for the guy without actually saying so.
        (and some do, but the community is so tightly linked to the church they will not report it)

        • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          some communities are centered around the religion and really put the pressure to vote for the guy without actually saying so.

          Which is why we have a secret ballot. You still vote your conscience and tell your friends and family you voted for whoever meets with their approval.

          I think a better question is how in the world can you expect to belong to faith group and NOT be pressured to vote a certain way. Lets face it while no candidate in any given election might happen to be a model member of your group; its pretty unusual that one party platform or the other won't substantively better align or that one candidate wont come down

          • Which is why we have a secret ballot.

            Entirely correct except for the fact that you got the tense wrong. We *had* a secret ballot. With phonemail voting, you can't prevent outside parties from insisting that they see how you voted (yes, this is also a problem with absentee ballots, which is why they used to be strictly controlled; a precaution which is now almost completely worn away).

      • Where do you come up with this? A church isn't even allowed endorse a candidate...

        Was that restriction lifted last year? I know the current administration stated that they were going to do so, but I don't remember offhand if it has been formally changed yet.

    • Hacking aside.
      The biggest issue I see, is it takes the privacy out of voting.
      We should be able to vote without our pastor looking over our solders judging us, or a Union Rep who may decide that your department may be OK for a layoff so they can bring in other workers. A Boss who may just fire you on the spot...

      Voting our conscious without direct personal repercussion is one of our basic rights. And one of our few powers that we have to actually change those who lead us.

      So the question will be on voting day, how many Church Congregations, Union Meetings, will there be to show people how to use the app.

      This.

      Forget all the BS about voter impersonation, it's about as serious a problem as Big Foot.

      The real voter fraud is from absentee voting, I don't think the examples you mention happen much in practise, but certainly there's a lot of spouses who "help" each other fill out their absentee ballot.

      • Perhaps the situation could be improved by allowing people to invalidate their absentee ballot in some way. Fill out and mail the ballot your spouse forces you to, then show up on election day and ask that your previous vote be voided in favor of a new one. Since the absentee ballot is still in the envelope at that point it should be possible.

    • So the question will be on voting day, how many Church Congregations, Union Meetings, will there be to show people how to use the app.

      Zero, because it says right in the summary this is for military troops living abroad only.

  • What a great name for an application, good job marketing team. I don't think they could've come up with anything more cringeworthy if they tried. Maybe the kyddez will like the name though. *Returns to yelling at kydz to stay off my lawn.
  • by dkman ( 863999 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:26AM (#57085844)

    So now they should create an iOS, android, windows, blackberry, etc app so that you can vote? Or do they pick only the top 2 and screw everybody else?

    If they want to move that way then just do it via web site. But you need to have the verification in place to prove that I cast my vote.

    Does a drivers license even prove citizenship? My father in law has a drivers license but isn't a citizen.

    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Re 'Does a drivers license even prove citizenship?"
      Depends on the US state and who they allow to request and then give such a "drivers license" to.
      A 'lease agreement" with a landlord?
      "utility bills"?
      "photocopies"
      "nonprofit entity" attesting the applicant resides in the state?
      ie any random document for "residency" but not the ones that need US citizenship...

      The easy way to work that out is to then pass all that information back into state and federal networks. See if the data exits on the informa
  • And I suspect the country would move noticably to the left. Stuff like Medicare for all, tuition free college, ending the 8 wars we're in and legal pot all poll in the 60s and 70s but never seem to make it into law. The Dems have twice now won major elections by popular vote and lost due to how the votes are counted (losing the House is especially galling)
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Gavagai80 ( 1275204 )

      Medicare for all and ending the wars would both put huge industries and their lobbyists out of work, that's why they don't happen regardless of poll numbers. Truthfully it would cause a bit of economic chaos for a while if we stopped killing people / letting people die.

      • and look at _how_ those industries maintain their stranglehold on American politics it isn't with arguments and advertisements so much as voter suppression. It just bugs me that we talk about democracy all over the world and then stopping people from voting is a central plank of our political system...
  • by Archfeld ( 6757 ) <treboreel@live.com> on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:52AM (#57086086) Journal

    This won't end well. Based on the news stories of how well most facial recognition works on African Americans it will probably only allow one black person to vote and ID the rest as the same person.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/0... [nytimes.com]

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by PopeRatzo ( 965947 )

      This won't end well. Based on the news stories of how well most facial recognition works on African Americans it will probably only allow one black person to vote and ID the rest as the same person.

      For West Virginians, that's a feature, not a bug.

  • Absentee Ballots (Score:4, Interesting)

    by atrex ( 4811433 ) on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @12:25PM (#57086384)
    Exactly wth is wrong with the current absentee ballot system? Or are they trying to imply that the mail isn't routinely and reliably delivered/sent to and from military bases abroad?

    Heck, the only way to even remotely make this phone app accurate and secure is to _mail_ the service men and women a unique passkey to log their vote with. But even then, it's data in a database connected to the bloody internet, not to mention that they'd have only the word of the service provider that there votes were credited anonymously and not tied to their identity.
    • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      Exactly wth is wrong with the current absentee ballot system?

      It destroys the integrity of elections because it makes it super easy for people to fill out a ballot for you. Did granny fill out and mail that ballot or did her home health aide? How can we ever know?

      It leaves the door open for vote swapping because although it generally illegal to photo or show your ballot to other etc - people can still do it which allows for swaps, sales, and trades.

      I think absentee ballots are needed but we should do a few things - require it be post marked the DAY of the election!

      • by MobyDisk ( 75490 )

        Require it be post marked from a location not less than 20 miles from your otherwise assigned polling place or accompanied by a written statement on pain of purgery that you were physically unable to travel to the polling place (hospitalized, deployed as a member of the armed forces etc).

        Most absentee ballots are from people overseas on vacations, business, school, etc. Hardly anyone uses one within 20 miles from their polling place. FYI: Some states do require a written statement.

  • So, when Trump wins 231% of the district, we cannot recount.
  • by Jerry ( 6400 )

    Stalin is reported to have said that "It doesn't matter who votes. What matters is who COUNTS the votes".

    iPhones are in a walled garden run by Apple. Google controls Android phones. Will ballots cast for Conservatives be lost "by mistake" while traveling through their system?

    Apple and Google are even now massively censoring and/or blocking any political content on their platforms except that posted by the Extreme Left. When called out on it, the excuse is always a "mistake" but such mistakes are mad

  • So what's stopping the Sergeant from watching his enlisted cast their vote for the "right people"? What stops someone selling their vote and allowing the person paying to watch them vote?

    There are reasons we have voting booths.

    I realize mail-in absentee ballots have the same issues, but this is a step towards allowing or requiring everyone to vote this way.

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