The High-Tech Jobs That Created India's Gilded Generation Are Disappearing (washingtonpost.com) 165
An anonymous reader shares a report: Information technology services account for 9.5 percent of the India's gross domestic product, according to the India Brand Equity Foundation (IBEF), but now, after decades of boom, the future of the industry seems precarious. Since May, workers' groups have reported unusually numerous layoffs. The Forum for IT Employees (FITE) estimates that 60,000 workers have lost their jobs in the past few months (syndicated source). "Employees are being rated as poor performers so companies can get rid of them," said FITE's Chennai coordinator, Vinod A.J. IT companies and some government officials say the numbers have been exaggerated, but industry experts say the country's digital wunderkinds have much to fear. "For the first time, companies are touching middle management," said Kris Lakshmikanth, chief of a recruitment firm called Head Hunters India. Bias against Indians abroad is also compounding workers' fears of layoffs and downsizing at home. President Trump has stoked anxiety among Indian techies, who make up the majority of applicants for the H-1B visa program for highly skilled foreign workers. Trump has talked about sharply restricting H-1Bs, and this year the number of applications dropped a staggering 16 percent as companies prepared for Trump's immigration cutbacks. Instead, Indian outsourcing companies such as Infosys started recruiting Americans, bowing to Trump's calls for "America First." On Monday, India's Prime Minister Modi will meet Trump to talk about trade, visas and climate issues.
Cloud (Score:3)
I see this everywhere - its the Cloud. Companies are not investing so much in maintaining their own IT systems now. They are using a bunch of features provided in the cloud. So mostly, there is no need for so many Indian IT firms. The few ones that are still running are just getting bigger because they are getting more business.
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Technical progress. We can do X with fewer people now. A few things can happen.
In one case, we can do more X. People buy more services that require X. This means we still need those people, and they output more. Car manufacturers move car features down through their models as they become cheaper, and the various income levels buy a model that fits their desire to spend. We're still using the labor, just for other things. This is a complex example of consumer buying power creating demand for a new p
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Companies don't choose to do anything of the sort. If you're building hard drives, you can sell 4TB drives when they're as cheap to produce as 2TB drives used to be--because people want to buy them. If you put out $100 4TB drives and people buy 2TB drives for $50 instead, well... then you're making 2TB drives.
This isn't a trickle-down economy. You don't go out, start a business, and push your success out to the masses by creating jobs and shoving products down peoples's throats. We have a demand econo
It's not only the cloud (Score:1)
Leeching is never a good way to survive, as the leeches have to find a host to attach to and leech
Instead of developing that own IT fields, like USA did, like Europe followed afterwards, like what happened in Singapore or Korea or Japan or even in China - those countries did all kinds of incubators helping creative youngsters to further develop their ideas into
Re:Cloud (Score:5, Insightful)
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So you think the reverse makes sense? Have you seen some of the code ops people put together (shudders)?
IMHO DevOps is where all IT/dev types should spend the first few years of their working lives. So they can appreciate the complexity of the 'other half's' jobs and make an informed decision about what they really want to do. Not so they can do the jobs at senior level.
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But they aren't building applications here, the "code" is just a syntax for configuration of ops systems. It's better to have someone with poor coding style than someone who doesn't know what that code SHOULD be doing on the underlying systems and how to manually validate that result for sound practices. Honestly, the whole concept is terrible. You use home grown scripts to fill holes and any sane ops
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Excel cowboys never build 'applications' either. Until the thing falls over on top of its creator and it ends up on some poor saps 'issue list'.
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If they could code, they would have higher paying jobs as coders.
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Around here Devops is kind of code for 'cheap clueless management'. Been my experience, but I was a kid and didn't know better.
Coders haven't really 'arrived' until they work for someone that sells code, one way or another. Until then, they are just overhead, like IT. Exceptions exist, where coders can be rainmakers, financial quants etc.
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Sys admin here who sometimes HAS to write code to get my work done in a timely fashion.
I am very proud of what I have written, but I know its probably all technically wrong. Im proud that my code has eased the workload on myself and my collegues greatly, but I am full well aware that its duck taped together with a wish and a prayer. I am also full well aware that there are probably better ways to do what I want.
I would be VERY happy for an actual programmer to sit down with me and show me what Ive done wrong, as long as they are willing to show me how to do it right as well. But if you roll up and act superior and snooty about the code I had to put together then youlll get the cold shoulder.
Agreed with this 100%, (as a sysadmin who also must code on occasion).
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You'll find very similar issues around sysadmins and installers written by devs. The sysadmins will get pissy because the dev tried do something stupid...automagically setup a database etc. Attitude matters.
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Actually you still need the system administrators as well.
Sure, but you need a lot fewer of them.
they aren't up to engineering stable production environments.
If you have a thousand developers, that may be true. The company I am currently consulting with has Git running on a VPS in "The Cloud" and about a dozen developers with laptops and external monitors. This is how much they spend on sysadmin salaries: $0.
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...problem with "devops" is that far too many people think developers handling ops is a sane choice...
Depends on the devs, depends on the ops. Just because someone has skills in one area does not disqualify them from being able to learn them in another. Check your people, check their attitudes, better to spin up a developer in admin skills with continuity in the organization instead of hiring a "certified high reliability sysop" from the outside and pitching out your existing staff.
Of course, if you run a revolving door shop in the first place, then, yeah, hire what you need and hope for the best. If yo
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You aren't simply going to adopt another h
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I'm a dev, have been for decades. Did some DevOps back in the Netmare 2 days, back when being an admin was a fucking bitch...
Anyhow: The worst thing you can hear from me is 'Anything is possible...' Because the second clause is '...but that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time, there has to be a better way!', but that clause is usually silent. People that have worked with me for a long time, know it's there.
Anything is possible, but you're a fool if sometimes you don't tell management that a b
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Actually you still need the system administrators as well. Developers might think they are competent to administer the systems and that is fine for dev but they aren't up to engineering stable production environments. The problem with "devops" is that far too many people think developers handling ops is a sane choice when proper use of these systems is for real ops engineers to employ some dev tools.
It's worse than that, actually. I have worked in the IT industry for too many decades, and for that entire time, programmers on the one side and system administrators on the the other have complained of the utter incompetence of each other - with a good deal of justification, I might add (I have worked on both sides, so I do have some background). Developers too often don't understand that programs have to be supportable: it must be easy and convenient for the support staff to troubleshoot and configure, be
Name and shame! (Score:3)
Anybody know any recruiters working for Tata/Infosys etc? Post 'em (Company name, city and recruiter name), so nobody else wastes their time.
Re:Name and shame! (Score:4, Informative)
E-Solutions Inc. and IDC Technologies spam me at least twice a day under different names for non-existent position all over the US.
H1B Highly Skilled (Score:5, Funny)
I can also create oxymorons.
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I liked the proposal (Trump's, I believe) to grant H-1Bs on the basis of who wants to pay most, so each application would come with a salary and we'd go through them in decreasing order and stop when we hit the limit. That would allow companies to bring in the sort of people H-1Bs are nominally for.
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So you'd bias the pool towards Silicon Valley participants who naturally have to pay more because it's an expensive place, over places like Seattle where it's not as expensive, so you'd pay less anyways? Or there
Victory! (Score:3)
So Trump's idea is working as intended. America for Americans!!!1*
* the last sentence is supposed to be sarcastic.
Re:Victory! (Score:5, Insightful)
So Trump's idea is working as intended. America for Americans!!!1*
* the last sentence is supposed to be sarcastic.
India works for their own citizens. China works for their own citizens. Germany works for their own citizens. France works for their own citizens.
Why is it such an evil thing for the US to work for their citizens?
Why must the US give all away no matter the circumstance or reason, sell out their own people, while others do the opposite and are applauded for it?
Re:Victory! (Score:4, Funny)
I said sarcastic, not evil or even bad. It's just that when you see these kinds of posts they're usually driven by lunatics.
I'm not a lunatic, just a moran.
Re:Victory! (Score:4, Insightful)
Why is it such an evil thing for the US to work for their citizens?
Those of us who oppose Trumpism don't believe he is "working for American citizens". We believe his policies are harming America.
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Of course he is.
I don't see the word "all" or even "most" in there.
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Americans have RIGHTS! Non-citizens DO NOT!
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
There is nothing in this sentence about "Americans". All people have the same rights to life, liberty, and happiness. I am proud to be an American because my country was founded on this principle.
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Google 'natural rights' and John Locke. Those are the principles this crazy country was based on. The idea that human beings have a thing called 'rights' that no one can give or take away but can only ignore or violate or respect. Read and ponder and realize that the US was a country founded by Libertarian nutjobs. Or at least that is how most Americans would see them. Maybe they'd even be considered terrierists. The country was founded by extremists but they don't run things anymore. If they were here they
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Americans have RIGHTS! Non-citizens DO NOT!
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
There is nothing in this sentence about "Americans". All people have the same rights to life, liberty, and happiness. I am proud to be an American because my country was founded on this principle.
Please forgive these ACs. Russians probably never had an American civics class in primary school.
Re: Victory! (Score:1)
The point of visas is to get high skilled workers INTO the country. It isn't to "help" another country. It's too increase your skilled labor pool.
That's why there is usually a salary requirement way above national mean.
One problem with that idea is that a person working for 60k in Peoria is going to be a higher skill level than a person working for 60k in Silicon Valley.
That last part can be easily solved, but bureaucrats have a hard time with mathy things.
keep the goddamned blue bastards at home! (Score:2)
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Of course, cultivating industry also has to b
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Why must the US give all away no matter the circumstance or reason
This being a bit anecdotal but US citizens seem to be a lot more adverse to price elevation than a lot of other countries I know of. Talk about raising the minimum wage and people flip out over the idea that their cheese in the grocery store might start costing $0.08 more. So employing an US worker means at some point cost will go up. Yes, there's an overall economic good being done, but for some reason people focus in on that cost going up part the most.
Or you sometimes get the person who understands al
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France works for their own citizens.
Considering the count of industrial jewels the french government allowed to be sold to foreign companies, this one is not obvious.
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It's not a zero-sum game. When super productive people come to the US they can increase job opportunities for those around them. Look at this list of nobel laureates from the US [wikipedia.org] many of them were not born in the US. You can't convince me that most of them they aren't making those around them better off than they otherwise would have been.
In the other extreme in the Mariel boat lift about 125,000 workers were added to Florida in a very short time. These folks wee not H-1Bs, they were citizens because of the
IT binge and purge (Score:2)
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Professional...not (starter/dead ender) jobs.
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seriously-- retail jobs used to be stable as a career tho not as a job at a particular place for over three decades.
But lately, they are being killed by online sales. We have 5 to 6 million people and three of our malls have died. The only two doing really well have luxury high rise condos built in to them and sell upscale goods.
The big box stores are increasingly empty.
That's a lot of jobs which no longer exist and those average folks don't have money to buy products as a result.
And that means the corpor
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It is an interesting point but our city is over 100 miles across. So now large areas of the city are not served by any mall which I think contradicts that theory (here at least).
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It feels like the whole economy is kind of transforming simultaneously faster than most of its participants can adapt to it.
Re:IT binge and purge (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not, not yet. It can, and it has--the Great Depression and the Industrial Revolution had pretty bad immediate effects--but for now, it's just economy.
Technical progress always means reducing labor required to accomplish an output. That means lay-offs, transitional unemployment, and so forth. People can get quite vocal about little things.
Think about it this way: 2-3 sports players die every year from a minor flaw in the human cardiovascular system. A college hockey player or a high school baseball player will take a puck or ball to the chest, and his heart will stop--permanently. Every heartbeat requires an ion channel reset; it takes 30mS, and a low-energy impact to the heart during this window puts the heart into permanent fibrillation. A heart rate of 120 means you're vulnerable to this for 60mS of every second.
Imagine if that made CNN and Fox News.
There would be a 10-year holy war about how we need to abolish all high school sports involving any sort of possible impact. Every few months, we'd re-kindle it by bringing a new face into the death-by-hockey-puck dialogue.
We do this with businesses. We lay off people constantly. The economy is growing, the number of jobs is increasing, and we point at the constant stream of thousands of lay-offs in the midst of millions of new jobs and loudly proclaim that our economy is dying. A lack of apoptosis is called cancer.
Mind you, we've got another recession coming up in a few months. We really will get a new unemployment spike then; that's going to happen. Different problem.
Instead of just accepting 2-3 deaths a year (Score:3)
Also, if instead of 2-3 deaths out of 6 billion it was 2-3 deaths on a 20 man team I think we'd do something. That's the kind of numbers the industrial revolution brought to the table, and the A.I Revolution looks to be doing the same.
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why not ask what could be done to prevent them?
Ok. Here's why: "It would cost more lives to do it than not."
Let's compare it to a cup. The kind anybody who has taken a puck to the nuts is happy to buy and wear. Let's also assume the heart problem is just as simple and cheap to prevent. (More likely not even possible.)
Here's my estimation:
Annual Cost per Player = $10 (get a new "heart cup" each season?)
Active Players per Year = 1,500,000 (globally, that would rather pay $10 than accept tiny risk of sudden death)
Annual Total Cost = $15M
Median Lifetime
Wow, that's horrifying (Score:2)
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That's not actually a nitpick (Score:2)
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Re:IT binge and purge (Score:5, Interesting)
"IT" is burger-flipper jobs. IT people rack servers, run cables, configure routers, and handle support tickets. They are your low-end, easily-replaced cogs.
You're looking at computer science and engineering people. Programmers, data analysts, computer engineers, the like. These people are highly-skilled, heavily-educated, and difficult to replace.
Someone on here once told me I should look into an online college instead of traditional Computer Science, because he has this really nice online college that was started by some governor. I took a look. They had Business Management and Information Technology, but no Computer Science. The guy couldn't understand the difference between CS and IT, and tried to explain that CS doesn't require math and that math is just fluff.
Re:IT binge and purge (Score:5, Insightful)
"IT" is burger-flipper jobs. IT people rack servers, run cables, configure routers, and handle support tickets. They are your low-end, easily-replaced cogs.
You're looking at computer science and engineering people. Programmers, data analysts, computer engineers, the like. These people are highly-skilled, heavily-educated, and difficult to replace.
There's a space in between where people need systems which take actual research and development. And those IT people are not low-end, or easily replaced. They aren't necessarily an engineer (although some of them are) but they are skilled and nontrivial to replace. When people try to replace them with cogs, bad things happen.
You can't replace a developer with an IT person, nor the other way around. Some people are both, that's cool whatever, but most people aren't.
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You're talking about Systems Engineers. People who say, "Your business needs what? A customer relations management system that integrates with your Active Directory domain and your PMIS?" and then sit down and solve out how to do it. They may not be able to put it all into practice; they might be able to describe software architecture, networking architecture, and other stuff that other highly-skilled and less-skilled components of your business can assemble together.
You can replace most lower-level I
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Except that those jobs aren't in the IT departments. Those are R&D jobs, just with an IT focus. When India talks about IT jobs, they mean the fungible workers 99.9% of the time.
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Except that those jobs aren't in the IT departments.
If you hire competent IT personnel, then yes, those jobs are in the IT departments. Infrastructure is IT's job.
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"IT" is burger-flipper jobs. IT people rack servers, run cables, configure routers, and handle support tickets. They are your low-end, easily-replaced cogs.
You're looking at computer science and engineering people. Programmers, data analysts, computer engineers, the like. These people are highly-skilled, heavily-educated, and difficult to replace.
Someone on here once told me I should look into an online college instead of traditional Computer Science, because he has this really nice online college that was started by some governor. I took a look. They had Business Management and Information Technology, but no Computer Science. The guy couldn't understand the difference between CS and IT, and tried to explain that CS doesn't require math and that math is just fluff.
IT is not just "burger flippers" as you put it. Yes, some jobs would fall into this category such as patching, basic configuration, handing tickets, etc. But there are higher level jobs such as network/wifi and systems/storage architects which requires quite a bit of knowledge and skill and are hard to replace.
It's interesting that you put programmers in the category of being hard to replace. A lot of IT stuff requires boots on the ground. Programming doesn't, which makes it much easier to replace with
Re:IT binge and purge (Score:5, Informative)
there are higher level jobs such as network/wifi
Network engineers.
systems/storage architects
Infrastructure engineers.
Here's the thing: when you get an IT degree, you don't get this knowledge. You get a 4 year Bachelor's of Applied Science in Information Technology from a $140,000 university, and you've learned something about routers, cables, servers, and some data center management. Those IT degrees are super-fluffed-up, and they don't include a whole hell of a lot of useful information. Most of it is "intro to...". For example, the local university here supplies a Bachelor's of Applied Science that includes intro to database design, intro to data communications and networks, software and hardware concepts, some math, some statistics (math), economics, and structured systems design. So you're looking at two database courses, two networking courses, a basic explanation of what a computer does, one course about complex system architecture, and then math and economics and technical writing. Or, in short, "I know what a computer is."
You can go to college for Network Engineering, and learn about how networks operate at every level, with a deep exploration of routing protocols, of switching technology, of networking architecture, the whole lot. You can get a four-year BAS in Database Design and Administration. You can get an IT or IS degree that makes sure you've taken a long look at the glossary of terms.
You can't pick up a Network Engineer, DBA, or Programmer by grabbing some high school kid who "liked computers" and training him for a couple months. For what's described as just "IT" and not an engineering-level job, you can pick a guy off the street and teach him how to plug the little wires in correctly.
We're constantly working toward that, more and more. You want comprehensive network security? Plan out your programmable switches, your IDS sensors, malware trackers and detonators, and so forth. Then, send your boots-on-the-ground to go plug all that shit in and give it the right IP address. One of these is a massive exercise in understanding complex architecture, identifying major trunks in your network, capacity planning for how you're getting all this information together and how much your new IDS can handle, and simple risk trade-offs on what you can and can't see within the limits of your budgets. The other is plugging things in.
Sure, you can outsource programming, or network design, or what have you; and you can outsource it to a highly-trained and experienced professional. You can hire a frigging Wendy's cashier to handle a temporary data entry clerk position, or to help rack some of these servers. More and more, we're seeing the ability to plug-and-play certain devices without heavy engineering, too; and some devices let the engineers design it once and then send it out to groups of devices, so you don't need 8 people configuring your 400 firewalls anymore because you have CISCO's management center or FortiManager or whatnot. Soon, the intermediary "I designed complex architecture and this Networking dude is configuring the switch" jobs are going to be cut down to "I designed complex architecture and configurations, and that intern racked the server; it's in my management center now, and I hit Apply."
"Soon" being "half a decade ago".
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Sure, you can outsource programming, or network design, or what have you; and you can outsource it to a highly-trained and experienced professional. You can hire a frigging Wendy's cashier to handle a temporary data entry clerk position, or to help rack some of these servers. More and more, we're seeing the ability to plug-and-play certain devices without heavy engineering, too; and some devices let the engineers design it once and then send it out to groups of devices, so you don't need 8 people configur
I'm looking at code monkeys (Score:2)
Quality of service (Score:5, Interesting)
Bias against Indians abroad is also compounding workers' fears of layoffs and downsizing at home.
Let's not pretend this bias isn't warranted. Outsourced indian tech support has a horrible reputation, and I'm taking into account the language barrier. It is almost universal that the best you can hope for from them is that they follow their scripts. Any deviation from the scripts and you can expect nothing but frustration and pain.
Outsourced Chinese tech support is notably better ( note; I didn't say good, only that it's better than indian tech support ). As a consultant and influencer, I make sure to steer my companies away from any company which outsources their tech support.
Let's not even discuss outsourced sysops. That shit is the stuff of nightmares.
Re:Quality of service (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's face it....MOST all stereotypes are based somewhat in observable fact....
They didn't just miraculously appear out of thin air...
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MOST all stereotypes are based somewhat in observable fact....
Correction, stereotypes are/were based somewhat on observable fact AT SOME POINT IN TIME
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From what I see...most of them can be pretty readily observed. People, as a whole don't change very readily over time.
Of course, that's not the "PC" thing to say (or think) , but you can see it every day in many groups of people.
Re:Quality of service (Score:5, Interesting)
I keep hearing this, but to be fair, most of the problem is with the way companies outsource. If someone in India is good at their job (and I have known some highly skilled Indians), they can move to wherever country they want meaning that if you want to hire someone skilled in India than you must pay them enough that they do not want to move.
If you you are opening shop in India for good reasons such as keeping 24 hour coverage, you end up paying more on wages but you get better people.
On the other hand, if you are opening shop in India to save money, you are getting all of the people who aren't skilled enough to move and aren't qualified to take the better jobs. That leaves the worst of the bunch to do your tasks and worse yet, if they are being used for call center type work, then you are getting them late at night their time when they won't be at their best.
Re:Quality of service (Score:5, Interesting)
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If someone in India is good at their job (and I have known some highly skilled Indians), they can move to wherever country they want meaning that if you want to hire someone skilled in India than you must pay them enough that they do not want to move.
I agree with this statement. I would only add that folks of this quality won't work for outsourcing firms, typically, or if they do it's transitory.
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In my experience, outsourced work involving knowledge or customer service interaction rates as follows...
#1 Philippines.
Speak Americanized English. Similar culture. Most able to improvise and most companies are willing to trust them with it. No attitude. Some issues with word choice, like "please wait a while" instead of a "moment" that can be frustrating, but nothing major. Do have typical Asian attitude towards bending the rules and can be frustrating about financial transactions.
#2 Hong Kong
Speak British
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Eastern Europe, particularly S Eastern Europe. No so much for phone banks, but for IT/dev roles. Of course they aren't near as cheap as India and YMMV.
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Ukraine has very good coders. Time zone isn't as hard compared to SE Asia. Willing to tell you when the requirements has issues instead of implementing the whole thing and letting it fail. Not nearly as cheap as India.
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Rude when customers don't understand them. Attitude issues when corrected. Inflated sense of importance. Tend to have tone issues with customers. Very willing to break rules. Hygiene is an issue.
Arrogant and filthy.
No Sympathy (Score:4, Interesting)
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It's not about race: when you hire somebody locally, you can evaluate them better. When you pay a firm 2 thousand miles a way to select staff, you have less control over quality, and they are tempted to cut corners to save a buck because that's human nature: less scrutiny, more corner cutting.
This is inevitable pullback, and a good sign (Score:4, Interesting)
From the summary:
Employees are being rated as poor performers so companies can get rid of them.
Here's the thing - as any developer who has worked with offshore teams knows, there are quite a lot of people that probably SHOULD be laid off for poor performance. What if it's not *just* so companies can get rid of them, but an actual ten to having qualified workers on staff instead of just any warm body?
The thing is IT was never going to save India other way - they have more substantial problems in other fields to address,, like a collapsing manufacturing sector.
Saw this coming.... (Score:5, Insightful)
No surprise; India hasn't raised it's game (Score:4, Interesting)
We seem to be in the third phase of Indian tech growth:
- Phase 1: Talented Indian engineers and programmers were recognized with opportunities in the US and other Western countries
- Phase 2: The inevitable over generalization that ALL Indian engineers and programmers are superior to Western engineers and programmers with the added benefit that they work for substantially less than their local counterparts
- Phase 3: Recognition by Western companies that they've been sold a bill of goods, the average Indian engineer and programmer is not superior to Western engineers and programmers and, due to the fact that they've been set up to fail because of incomplete specifications and non-existent training/onboarding, they have been hurt by indiscriminate hiring of Indian tech workers
Rather than reaping the profits through Phase 2 without concern for the future, the Indian government should have been upping its game in terms of the quality of the workers being made available to Western companies as well as establishing more stringent standards for workers along with better education for them. What has happened is that the initial good experiences has been overwhelmed by bad and hurtful experiences leading to companies eschewing Indian tech workers for "the next best thing".
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Reputation (Score:4, Insightful)
The reputation of the quality of service provided has finally saturated to the point that companies looking to save a buck on offshoring now think twice. I've seen too many companies with executive level decisions made by individuals with absolutely no understanding of the technology or quality of service - their decisions were only based on the cheap (up front) cost of the services. Enough companies have learned the hard way that the supposed cost savings don't pan out for several reasons, and that has become common knowledge in non-tech circles. Americans in general have experienced and been unhappy with support provided by individuals that speak very poor English, to the point that it now reflects poorly on whatever company is using such services as being second-rate in their support. The bubble is bursting and things will normalize, and that will definitely result in a sharp reduction in the amount of services demanded of India.
Good news? (Score:4, Interesting)
I smell bullshit... (Score:1)
"Employees are being rated as poor performers so companies can get rid of them"
How about the high demand for workers in the tech industry created an environment in which demand outstripped supply so just about anybody could get a job with little to no training... which of course led to an industry full of idiots with extremely poor customer service skills who lacked even the most basic skills needed to perform most IT related functions... so much so that without written step by step instructions they were i
Everybody loves a doomsday scenario (Score:2, Insightful)
Everybody loves a doomsday scenario and articles that are apocalyptic. Heck, politicians routinely use this strategy to win elections.
The reality is unsexy and mundane middle-ground. The Indian IT industry is not going to disappear overnight, nor is the US industry is not going collapse overnight because of China and India. Also, everyone loves the stereotype stories of Indian offshoring horror stories but again, the answer is a lot more complicated.
The unfortunate reality is that a lot of the headcount tha
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Nobody cares about that. They care about which type they get on their project.
On the actual work phase, not the proposal.
Not to worry (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not to worry (Score:4, Insightful)
India needs economic growth for its poor people. Building infrastructure is not a bad idea, but the economy for the common people is still largely hampered by over-regulation. IT has been a source of growth because it only needs some people showing up to an office. If you have to actually get land for a factory, get a loan for it, get the permits to make something, make something, and sell it for a profit despite the weird taxes between state borders, it is much harder.
India ranks #143 [heritage.org] on the Index of Economic Freedom, way behind China at 111. Moreover, India's direction is down in the Index, as opposed to China which is moving up.
[India's] Growth is not deeply rooted in policies that preserve economic freedom. Progress on market-oriented reforms has been uneven. The state maintains an extensive presence in many areas through public-sector enterprises. A restrictive and burdensome regulatory environment discourages the entrepreneurship that could provide broader private-sector growth.
Re: (Score:2)
The Economist said it best...
FEW countries would see a tax requiring some businesses to file over 1,000 returns a year as an improvement. But India might. A nationwide Goods and Services Tax (GST) is set to come into force on July 1st. It will replace such a tangle of national and local levies and duties that even the prospect of 37 annual filings (three a month plus an annual return) for each of India's 29 states in which a business operates is a relief by comparison.
So hey, Modi got something done!
That's not really going to help (Score:2)
Maybe the pendulum is swinging back? (Score:2)
I think this may be due in part to a few things:
- Companies being less susceptible to the sales pitches (i.e. "Our Indian developers are superior in every way to your native ones...and we work for 20% of the salary!") after either being burned once or twice, or playing golf with enough CIOs who've been burned
- Saturation -- as in, even if they're cheap, the body shops can't hire people indefinitely if the amount of work is going down
- Cloud -- less remote management of infrastructure that isn't automated to
Perhaps it's the 80/20 rule in play (Score:1)
So they've burned through the 80% of their possible market and now won't be able to sustain further growth.
There are only so many u.s. companies with large IT staff. Smaller companies are going to a hosted model.
And there are a lot of huge failures (Sysco) by indian IT companies which are well known so the remaining companies are less willing to bite. When some "bright young executive" proposes using indian resources the Board and upper management know it's not as good as it sounds.
They're losing out (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Live by lopsided trade, die by lopsided trade (Score:1)
If your job heavily depends on international politics and trade, expect instability.
Then again, most jobs do to various degrees. Career stability is so last century.
just to be a devi's advocate (Score:2)
Normal (Score:2)
'Gilded' ain't 'golden'.
Re: (Score:2)