Netflix CEO Says Blocking Proxy Services Is Maturation of Internet TV (mobilesyrup.com) 191
An anonymous reader writes: During a recent round table discussion, Netflix CEO Reed Hastings commented on the company's controversial move to begin blocking the use of proxy VPN/DNS services. "We have the obligation to respect the content rights that we buy; it's just a simple fairness thing. Someone else has paid for the rights in Germany, so we should respect that, just as we would expect the same in return," he said. "The basic thing is if we license a movie here [the U.S.], and then another network licenses it in Germany, then we don't have the rights to display it in Germany. That's why we have to enforce those VPN rules, just like Amazon Prime Instant Video and others do as well. Think of it as the maturation of Internet TV."
Maturing = controlling? (Score:3, Insightful)
With any new technology, stuff is relatively free. People who make stuff are left alone to make it, and the stuff that is made is shared. Popular work is encouraged, and less popular work continues on a hobby basis. But then someone rich realises that they're not getting even richer by sticking their nose into this new technology. So they waltz in and say, "Hey, this is disrupting the lifestyle to which I have become accustomed - that lifestyle involving my collecting money from people without actually DOING any further work." And for a while people point and laugh and say, "Who is this old man, coming into our playground and wagging his finger and telling us what to do?"
But this old man has money. And money buys two things: it buys land, and it buys ears. You can buy a lot of the playground, sure, but you can't scare everyone off it, otherwise your playground was useless. So, you buy ears. You convince people who were playing happily that they should be ok with playing differently - in particular, playing in such a way that the old man gets a cut each time you play a game. It's your moral duty. Go on, pay the man.
And then the playground is mature.
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Apparently in your fantasy world the stuff which is made costs nothing to produce, the people who make that stuff don't need to pay any bills and there is no cost to distribute this stuff in any format.
Have you taken your meds today?
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Copyrights have existed far longer than 40 years ago. So, yes, people have been paid because of government-controlled monopolies for hundreds of years.
I don't mind them geolimiting, but... (Score:5, Informative)
But the simple fact is that. 15000 titles in the US, compared to around 3000 titles where I live, is not worth the price they are asking.
Lower the price so match the amount of content and it's fine. But paying the same as the US with 1/5th of the content. No.
This. (Score:3)
I saw a chart somewhere and basically there is 0 incentive to subscribe if you're not in North America unless you have a VPN to make it appear that you are.
Re:This. (Score:5, Informative)
"I saw a chart somewhere and basically there is 0 incentive to subscribe if you're not in North America unless you have a VPN to make it appear that you are."
It isn't about the volume, but rather the quality. The thing is, US Netflix has terrible documentaries and I like documentaries so even if I lived in the US, I would prefer the UK version. Documentaries on US Netflix are so frequently those dumb ones that go "Aliens!....pause for ads.....before the break, aliens!" and that is simply brain damaged. So no, being in North America isn't really the only reason to have Netflix.
Re: I don't mind them geolimiting, but... (Score:1)
I don't mind the geolimiting, it's the false positives that worry me.
I live in the UK and use a small business ISP. My IP address has been registered with RIPE as being in the UK for over a decade. It's the only IP address we have ever used on Netflix, and no other Netflix account has ever been used from here. My Netflix account is registered to a UK address, and paid for on a UK card.
Yet despite all that, Netflix decided that I couldn't stream anything from the UK catalogue because I was apparently using a
vpn use important when not at home... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Fairly sure you can use VPN. Just that you will still see just the stuff you see at home.
Nope. They started blocking Private Internet Access. My Netflix billing address was in the US and the VPN servers I used were in the US. They blocked PIA so I cancelled Netflix. Now I one-stop-shop at The Piratebay while maintaining some privacy from my ISP and the websites I visit.
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You can watch your Netflix content without the use of a VPN just fine.
Not when "you're not at home" means you're in another country.
When I'm in Europe for business trips, it would be great if I could catch up on my series on Netflix instead of watching boring shows on local TV in languages I don't understand.
But no, Netflix won't allow me to use the service I paid for.
Alternatively.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Alternatively.... (Score:4, Informative)
Sadly most of the media companies haven't become savvy enough to realize the internet is global and this silly crap of geolimiting things is last century. When most media is made outside the 'normal' methods we see today then I'm sure that will change.
Re:Alternatively.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly, most of these companies have realized that an Indian viewer will pay a fraction of what a US viewer will pay and that a European viewer will pay even more than the US viewer. That's why the rights are not licensed worldwide.
Re:Alternatively.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly, most of these companies have realized that an Indian viewer will pay a fraction of what a US viewer will pay and that a European viewer will pay even more than the US viewer. That's why the rights are not licensed worldwide.
The funny thing is that the European viewer, who's willing to pay the most, can only access a small portion of the available content. A possible solution could be that you can only sign up in the country where you live, and charge different rates based upon that, but still let you watch the entire collection.
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I personally have no issue with regions with lower incomes paying less for the same content. Heck I think scaled income based payment for services is probably the best way to handle most types of services in general. But then I'm fairly economically progressive.
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And thus aiding the move of jobs from from high cost of living countries to low cost of living countries. I have seen this in one industry and the fact that software was sold at low prices in India gave a huge advantage to the buyers of that software in comparison to buyers in the west.
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are you really comparing the cost of software as an advantage, and not the fact that the west has faster internet, more reliable power, clean water, less disease, much less poverty, better transport....etc, etc, etc?
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When the software costs (in the west) $1M per seat, yes.
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your western bias is showing..
last I heard South Korea and Japan have very good internet, etc.. and they aren't in the "west".
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There's no reason a business can't buy something in another country if it's cheaper. Why should I be barred from doing the same thing?
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And when you are not buying, but instead, you are licensing? And the license comes with geographic limitations?
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The problem is, while the internet is global, most media distribution systems are not. Netflix is probably the largest distributor now being in 200-odd countries. And that is the point- the media companies want to deal with single companies - if you want to di
Re: Alternatively.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I find it amusing that big business want to buy cheap labor from overseas on H1B visas, but crack the shits when consumers try to do the same thing with product and services.
That is not how the internet works (Score:5, Informative)
As for licensing deals: as a consumer, I don't need to know any of that; that's not my problem. And if different countries have different laws, that's fine - but it's not Netflix' job to enforce them.
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"Why does my geographical location determine whether or not I'm allowed to access the content I paid for?"
Because the powers that be want to enclose and DRM the internet. They know most people are stupid. Movie studies have seen what video game companies and apple has done for software and games. They want to seal the entire internet in encrypted drm laden bs. I expect to see videogames increasingly go always online and exe's and game files go fully encyrpted/sandboxed in the future. Similar things wil
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So you're saying I'll only buy indie games in the future?
Umm... ok, not THAT big a difference from now, to be honest...
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Why does my geographical location determine whether or not I'm allowed to access the content I paid for? If I buy a physical book or a DVD, am I not allowed to read or watch it if I travel to another country? Of course I am. Why is streaming video different?
As for licensing deals: as a consumer, I don't need to know any of that; that's not my problem. And if different countries have different laws, that's fine - but it's not Netflix' job to enforce them.
Old, scared execs that can't be taught new tricks. We're going to have to wait until they die.
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"Why does my geographical location determine whether or not I'm allowed to access the content I paid for"
And what happens when I'm away from home and need to stream content I legally subscribe to because it will 'expire' by the time I'm back home?
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Why does my geographical location determine whether or not I'm allowed to access the content I paid for? If I buy a physical book or a DVD, am I not allowed to read or watch it if I travel to another country? Of course I am. Why is streaming video different?
Actually DVD Region coding is a thing so unless you travel with your DVD player as well, yes, they can prevent you from watching it in a different country (or region as they define it, but you get the point).
As for it not being Netflix's job to enforce it, it really is. It is in their contracts with the content producers. You think Netflix cares where you watch from? It's more money for them. But they don't have any real choice in the matter. If the content producers say "Hey, fix this or we will stop p
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As for it not being Netflix's job to enforce it, it really is. It is in their contracts with the content producers.
But it's not in their interest to do a very good job. Just like nearly every DVD player manufacturer has leaked the secret passcode to make the player region free.
Change your licensing (Score:1)
The internet is global, so just buy the distribution globally and sell a global product, rather than just giving each country just enough as you can get away with!
US Netflix > Any other country Netflix.
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You really think Netflix has the option to buy globally? I sure as shit don't see the networks agreeing to that deal. Furthermore, even if the networks wanted to, they probably have some preexisting exclusive licensing deals that prevent them from giving global deals.
This is not a move Netflix is making by choice. They are making it to keep the non-original content.
other way around (Score:1)
One could say that, "as a matter of fairness" Netflix "has an obligation" to refuse to accept geographically-limited licenses. Anything less is disrespectful to the viewers. Think of it as the maturation of Internet TV.
In case you were under a delusion, (Score:3, Informative)
Netflix wants to remind you they are not your friend. They are not a non-profit citizen advocacy organization. They not interested in net neutrality because it is essential to a fair and open public communication infrastructure. They are a for-profit company, no different than Comcast or AT&T. Now that they have "matured", get ready for the same "shut up and pay your bill" treatment.
Fair? (Score:2)
I switched from commercial television channels to Netflix, but without access to th
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> How is that fair?
Real life is not the playground. Just like, "They did it first!" is not really a good excuse. Life is not fair.
I recently came across some NL company that offers hosting. They have 50 GB of free backup but only if you're local, everyone else has to pay. They check your IP address and spit you out to their .eu site when you try to sign up for it. I suppose you might say that's not fair. Odd that you threaten to pirate it? Is it that meaningful?
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Life is not fair.
Funny thing about that. We have the power to make it fair. We can create a buyers market with that power, where the consumer sets the rules. So, if no "legitimate" sellers offer what we want where and when we want it, then there is nothing wrong with circumventing them. If I pay for a Netflix subscription, and have to download a bootleg because they won't deliver where I am, I consider the download as paid for. Everybody still got their checks. Their bureaucracy be damned. And, we saved Ne
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Isn't it a bit binary to not see any possible middle ground between "Yeah, life isn't fair, live with it" and "we're establishing a realm of absolute fairness"? It's possible to work towards something without being able to absolutely define it, and reasonable to expect some sort of intermediate result between the current situation and utopia.
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Hmm... Binary or realistic?
What plans do you have to make it any better on more than just the tiniest of scales? 'Cause lots of use do things like release our stuff with open source licenses and, truth be told, it hasn't really changed the playing field except for in the area of software.
I'm not suggesting we give up (or they) but that they be realistic about their goals, avoid hyperbole, and actually do things that might make a difference if enough of us join in. How do we get this changed? I've got a few
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I somehow doubt you've the capacity to enforce such. Therein lies the problem. But, if you want to hope for the unlikely then I'm not gonna stop you. You can pretend it is otherwise but that's probably not healthy.
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Fair really is a matter of perspective. It also has many variables and extenuating circumstances. What you might see as fair might not be what they see as fair.
My suggestion is to just pirate it. Really. If they're not giving you fair access, in your view, pirate it. It's not like we're going to be able to force them - we have no solidarity, power, nor political ears.
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Maturity? No. Growth pains. (Score:2)
They're enough of a threat to TV networks they get harassed into fixing problems that aren't really theirs, if they deliver to a US-registered IP that should be the end of their responsibility. This is just a policy of appeasement while hopefully kicking them to the curb, it's a global market and you sell to the whole world. It's called globalization and you're only like 50 years behind the times.
Well if Netflix blocks my access (Score:3)
I'll just have to block Netflix from accessing my credit card.
Netflix is public, must protect profits (Score:5, Insightful)
Reed Hastings is trying to say that Netflix can only do business by playing by the rules that the TV networks and content producers write. Those groups want to maximize their profit, and so does Reed. If they refuse to do business with Netflix without geographically-limited licensing, Netflix can either say goodbye to customers or agree to do it.
As the head of a public company, Reed doesn't have a choice. I would at least hope that Netflix itself only licenses on a global basis and doesn't engage in geographic limitations.
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And yet they couldn't be bothered to get full global rights for some of their biggest shows like House of Cards and Orange is the New Black.
It sounds like they sold the streaming rights to shows they produce to others in regions they didn't offer service.
Now that makes perfect sense.
Then when they expanded their service, the preexisting contracts giving distribution rights to others were still in effect.
Its hard to be overly critical of this. It happens to companies all the time. I work for one right now that sold the distribution rights to product to dealer in another country. Then we expanded into that country a couple years later with anothe
Think of it as (Score:1)
Making the new model just like the old one so its easier to control. :(
Maturing Towards Thier Profit Margin (Score:2)
What bullshit!
Except that I paid for the right to watch it. (Score:4, Informative)
And I like to travel.
Your system of "intellectual property" is broken beyond repair.
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They will say that you paid for the right to watch it - from a very specific location, probably within the borders of the country you reside in. I have not read the terms of service but it's quite possible that they'd be right. If this is a problem for you then you *did* read the terms of service, right?
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If this is a problem for you then you *did* read the terms of service, right?
Don't be smug. The terms of services are written by experts in obfuscation, and nothing is gained by reading them anyway, as you have no power to renegotiate any of the terms, nor will you find another company with better deals on the same content.
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Can't you just run a VPN server on your home network? They wont be able to block that.
I installed an OpenVPN server on my cheapass OpenWRTd router and as long as the router is on (which it always is), I can connect to the internet via my home connection (which I do both on my laptop and phone when on a public WiFi network).
Granted, this may be problematic if your upstream is crappy, but otherwise it seems like a very simple solution for those based in the US.
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While some people have mentioned the "US-resident traveling abroad" scenario, that's not really the scenario that is driving this backlash. It's mostly non-US residents wanting to subscribe to the US version of Netflix.
As a side note, I've done what you described. I have 75/75mbps on Verizon FiOS. Unfortunately, I rarely actually get 75mbps upload in practice- presumably only to services co-located with Verizon, or direct peering arrangements. I'm lucky to sustain 10mbps when VPNing from the US. In Eur
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While some people have mentioned the "US-resident traveling abroad" scenario, that's not really the scenario that is driving this backlash.
I understand that, but given this sentence from the GP "And I like to travel", I was assuming GP was US-based and providing a possible solution for that specific case.
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If you connect through your home VPN, Netflix sees your home IP. They can't know whether the connection from that IP was initiated from within your own home or just via your own home. Unless they block your home IP, which they are obviously not doing:
"It’s believed that completely blocking the use of VPN/DNS services is impossible for Netflix, since service providers only need to switch to a new IP address or DNS range to bypass the lock."
Take some time to read through this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w [wikipedia.org]
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What is the it in this context, though?
Let's say you're a German who signed up for Netflix while you were traveling in the U.S. - because you wanted something better to watch in Hotels than the public channels and HBO - and are currently in France.
Is it...
A. "Netflix's catalog from the market in which I currently find myself"? You believe you're entitled to French content only.
B. "Netflix's catalog from the market from which I signed up"? You believe you're entitled to US
Maturation? (Score:2)
Just Pirate (Score:5, Informative)
Just Torrent the shows instead. It's cheaper, more convenient, and more reliable. Piracy: A truly global media delivery service.
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It's pretty low-cost, on average. Don't forget to mention that!
Starting to get sick of this shit (Score:2)
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Another case where going the illegal route gets you a better product.
The problem isn't proxy services (Score:2)
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Money Talks, Bullshit Watches Paint Dry. (Score:3)
Maturation? (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, you're working hard on making it as irrelevant as old school TV has become, and for the same reason?
*sigh*
Back to torrents, folks, 'til they get it.
People Travel (Score:2)
So, will Netflix pro-rate my monthly bill for time I spend on travel to foreign countries?
I'm kind of doubting it.
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Of course they will, just as soon as your landlord pro rates your rent, your cell phone pro rates your phone bill, and your gym pro rates your membership.
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Of course they will, just as soon as your landlord pro rates your rent, your cell phone pro rates your phone bill, and your gym pro rates your membership.
Good point, but there indeed some are counter-examples.
My car insurance company will pro-rate while I'm away. So will my internet (& TV) service.
My cell phone service. . . It's the opposite. I have to pay extra to add "International Roaming" so that people can call my US number in France, UK, and so on. Same for cell-phone data and texts. It's super-convenient, but boy does that one add up!
I was very excited when they became available here (Score:3)
I have immediately subscribed when they became available here in my European country. During the first month I have seen all programs from their very limited list that I am interested in.
Then I have canceled. There are lots of other programs in their worldwide catalog that I would like to see and that I am willing to pay for. See, I am not interested in most of contemporary movies or series. I was interested in documentaries. Sadly, those are not available here.
I am not going subscribe until there are enough programs for me to watch for at least a month.
In the meanwhile I got motivated to have a look at the cable selection I am subscribed to. I have made some changes and I am happy. I am not interested in paying for History Chanel and similar channels that used to have quality programming and that feature mainly reality shows nowadays.
split geoblocking and localization (Score:2)
Commenters should read the full article first (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, if they don't want to be in breach of contract Netflix are legally obligated to abide by the covenants of whatever agreement(s) they've entered into with content owners. He's merely saying this to appear to do what they expect his company to prevent, this in order to keep securing more licenses for their content; and further he adds that he's very aware of what customers want, only it's going to take time to reach a universal licensing model. Except for programs they fund themselves, one would assume.
I mean, who are we kidding here? Obviously, with them using around 37% of the entire Internet's bandwidth as of 2015 stats, one would think that Netflix is keenly aware that it's just a pointless exercise of whack-a-mole, but the balding pointy-headed head of the licensing department at 19thCenturyFax might not quite be as savvy with technology, and could actually believe that the VPNing can be stopped. (in reality, none of them are dumb enough to assume something so silly, but their point simply validates the low-hanging fruit theory to get maximal return for a small investment of time and resources.)
If people are serious about using VPNs, then they'll have to put in a bit of extra effort and spend a little more to get a reputable provider that will not fall victim to their pruning of the cheap or free VPN services. Again, nothing terribly earth-shattering here. One could therefore remark that it would seem reasonable to save the indignant tone for actually important things.
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Wait... Why can't VPNing be stopped? Sure, you're not going to be able to stop them all, but it seems quite feasible to block the vast majority of them.
First, for consumers to be able to find VPNs, they have to be publicly-available and advertised. What percentage of VPN services control 95% of market? A wild guess, but I would bet it isn't above 50, and very well might be below 10. Monitoring the top 100 services wouldn't require inordinate resources, in part because there's a wide range of companies in
Netflix is being idiotic about this (Score:4, Informative)
Unfortunately the end-user has NO rights (Score:2)
Because, heaven forbid I be a US citizen traveling abroad who simply wants to access the content he's paid for.
Fuck me and my selfish, unfair self.
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So if they define US territory as stopping at the outside surface of my home's exterior walls, fuck me.
Yeah, well it's goodbye then :( (Score:3)
We had a good run, but the things you have available in my country are not worth it. And it is not even the expensive shows I am interested in, it's documentaries etc. I would think those would be easier and cheaper to license globally.
For some reason, I don't even watch much TV anymore, haven't had cable in years. My Netflix usage has also been less and less the last year so it is not a huge loss.
Copyright exception for works not available. (Score:2)
Copyright was never meant to be used as a tool for censoring content, on the contrary, it was meant to promote the arts. So copyright should have an exception for works not made available. If the copyright holder decides to withdraw a work, then it would be automatically free for anyone else to copy and distribute. After all copyright is a monopoly, but if the holder decides to not peruse that monopoly then it should be open for anyone else who my want to publish it. Under said directive we would have:
1. Ol
Hastings misses a big point (Score:2)
Re:It should be illegal to geolimit (Score:5, Insightful)
There's nothing illegal about geoblockimg, but neither is ther anything illegal about our working around it. And if they try too hard at making geoblockimg stick, we will just torrent, and nobody gets paid.
Re:It should be illegal to geolimit (Score:5, Insightful)
i think the real maturation of internet tv is going to come when the exclusive content agreements stop. i thought music was on the way to getting this right, but...its not. you cant quite get everything on one music service, and video is way behind music in getting it right.
hell, i pay the NHL a few bucks a month for gamecenter live, but my local team is blacked out, and national games are blacked out. for the games i *CAN* watch, there are no commercials or half-time commentary or anything. its weird for a game to go to commercial, the tv to go silent, and the screen to say "we will be right back" and worse, theres NO option to pay a few more bucks a month to get my local games, or to get the national events, and i dont like commercials, but its a weird, weird way to watch anything on tv when there is a 2 minute or 15 minute silent intermission.
hell, id pay twice what what i do now to stream it so that i could watch what satellite/cable users can subscribe to, but thats not a thing. its bizarre.
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Yes, and I think the Internet is a fad. As soon as people tire of pr0n the Internet will go away.
Translation: Never going to happen.
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There are a few services within the music industry that have managed to negotiate almost global rights - iTunes and Spotify are almost there, for example. You'd think that this would make the industry as a whole loosen up a bit and open the floodgates for the rest, but for example 8tracks recently went US and Canada only in their bid to
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Evidently you never heard of the DMCA?
"Gee, officer, I'm running this VPN for security. Where in your log does it show that I accessed this NBC broadcast streamed rerun by circumventing anything?"
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Yes, there's a "trouble barrier" in a process like torrenting that the ordinary person does not feel like taking the effort to cross. But as content limits get more and more outrageous (why can I stream one ABC show the day after it airs, have to wait a week for some other show and can't see Show Number Three at all if I miss it?) the more ordinary people will take the trouble to cross that barrier. By the time this effect shows up in the network's viewer metrics, it will be too late.
Exactly (Score:2, Interesting)
There is no reason for geoblocking other than greed, and probably misguided, self-defeating greed at that.
There is no legitimate administrative logistics or whatever reason for restricting content access over the Internet to certain locations on Earth.
It is a totally artificial barrier, exactly akin to a highwayman stopping you on the road and demanding the contents of your pockets and your watch.
Don't you think in this day and age that if all people around the world were treated as having the same rights t
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Did you bother reading the article? Netflix has bought the rights to display certain content in the USA. Other companies have bought the rights for other locations. If Netflix wants to buy world-wide rights, they probably can, but they will pay a LOT more $$$ for it, and they will pass that cost along to you, the consumer.
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Except in most cases they haven't. The content creator just wants to keep the option open of selling a higher cost exclusive license in those territories in 6 months, a year, 2 years or some indeterminate time in the future. Because that is how things worked in the 1960's when programs were shipped around on physical tapes with a relatively hig
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Netflix isn't violating the terms of the license if they're streaming that content to an American IP address. .
Since you have access to Netflix's licensing agreements, perhaps you could post the relevant paragraphs?
Re:Exactly (Score:5, Insightful)
It is time for channel based content to go. Who cares what channel or network the content they want to watch is on or even from? They just want to watch say Big Bang Theory or Orange is the New Black or whatever. It no longer needs to be on at a "time" on a "channel". But the old way of distribution is still pretty well entrenched at least for a little while longer.
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There is no reason for geoblocking other than greed, and probably misguided, self-defeating greed at that.
With ad-supported services* it doesn't make any money at all for them to run a commercial for AT&T if they don't provide services in that country.
* Yes, I know, this doesn't include Netflix.
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They need business entities to purchase ad-space in that location. It's unlikely that Hulu's phone is ringing because a retailer in Argentina* desperately wants to run ads there.
* I pulled that country name out of my ass. Argentina may or may not be a huge source of revenue for Hulu, I don't authoritatively know.
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I wouldn't go that far, but I do think there needs to be a new distribution model. I don't know what it could be, but it should be designed with the Internet in mind.
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Illegal under the laws of what country? What enforcement mechanism would you suggest when one (or a hundred) sovereign nations tell you to go fuck yourself?
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