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EU Earth Stats Politics

More People In Europe Are Dying Than Are Being Born (phys.org) 547

jones_supa writes: More people in Europe are dying than are being born, according to a new report co-authored by a Texas A&M University demographer. In contrast, births exceed deaths, by significant margins, in Texas and elsewhere in the United States, with few exceptions. The researchers find that in Europe, deaths exceeded births in most of the counties of Germany, Hungary, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, as well as in Sweden and the Baltic States. Further south, natural decrease is found occurring in the majority of the counties of Greece, Portugal and Italy. More births than deaths (natural increase) is widespread in Ireland, Cyprus, Iceland, Lichtenstein and Luxembourg. "Natural decrease is much more common in Europe than in the U.S because its population is older, fertility rates are lower and there are fewer women of child-bearing age," the researchers explain. "Natural decrease is a major policy concern because it drains the demographic resilience from a region diminishing its economic viability and competitiveness."
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More People In Europe Are Dying Than Are Being Born

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  • by known_coward_69 ( 4151743 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:11PM (#51303003)
    that's what the US is doing
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      and Germany.

      • by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:17PM (#51303037) Homepage Journal
        I think it means, if this trend keeps up, that EU culture, the Germans, the French, etc....will possibly start to disappear, being replaced with the Muslims that are pouring in, staying isolated and not melting into the EU cultures, and they are reproducing at a greater rate.

        I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen. If the Muslim populations get high enough, they can vote in the changes to the laws and the old world cultures will fade.

        • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:30PM (#51303153)

          and how long before the next Hitler comes to stop that?

          • 5 or 10 years. Give or take.

          • by Dunbal ( 464142 ) * on Thursday January 14, 2016 @06:00PM (#51303893)

            There will be no "next Hitler", just like there will be no "next Napoleon". Certainly Hitler was no Napoleon. Napoleon was a military genius but his famous military accomplishments (having lost very few battles despite at times tremendous odds against him) were far shorter lived than his achievement with re-writing and organizing law: the Napoleonic Code lives on today in many guises because it makes sense. Hitler was an appalling strategist, an amateur tactician at best (who got lucky a very few times), a ruthless and reckless politician who however managed to motivate a demotivated people through his obsession with national spirit and national identity - crucial for a broken people who had lost everything through a devastating war, revolt and punitive blockade and reparations.

            Of course there can always be someone worse than Hitler in the future. But the times are different and the solution will therefore be different.

        • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

          by Anonymous Coward

          I hear the Muslim men are all up for reproducing with the European women too, whether the women want to or not.

        • by Attila Dimedici ( 1036002 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:49PM (#51303333)

          I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen.

          Muslims seeking revenge against Europeans for the crusades is like Japanese seeking revenge against the U.S. for their defeat in WWII.

          • by Chris Mattern ( 191822 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @05:34PM (#51303685)

            One should note that Islam won the Crusades. In the end, all the crusader kingdoms were permanently evicted from the Middle East and its surrounds. In the final act, even Constantinople finally fell (remember that the rescue of the Byzantine Empire was the original motivation for the Crusades--the whole thing was ignited by the Byzantine disaster at Manzikert, after all.)

            • by XXongo ( 3986865 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @05:51PM (#51303825) Homepage

              (remember that the rescue of the Byzantine Empire was the original motivation for the Crusades--the whole thing was ignited by the Byzantine disaster at Manzikert, after all.)

              Uh, the crusaders didn't protect Constantinople-- they sacked it.

              It was richer, and less well defended, than the Islamic lands that they were nominally aimed at, and they wanted the loot. The crusaders were not the good guys in this portion of history.

              If you want to know, why did Constantinople fall to the Moslems? The answer is, it fell because it never really recovered from being sacked by the Fourth crusade.

              http://www.historytoday.com/jo... [historytoday.com]

              • Uh, the crusaders didn't protect Constantinople-- they sacked it.

                Well, I said it was the original motivation. I didn't say they were good at it. They did sort of lose focus there--particularly the Fourth Crusade, which, as you state, would be the one that sacked Constantinople.

          • I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen.

            Muslims seeking revenge against Europeans for the crusades is like Japanese seeking revenge against the U.S. for their defeat in WWII.

            How about Muslims seeking revenge against Europeans for colonization? I can tell you that is a very sharp thorn at the moment, at least in France.

        • by mikael ( 484 )

          It's strange how homes that were built over 150 years ago and were affordable to the young people of the time are no longer affordable to young people of the same age now.

        • by MikeRT ( 947531 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @05:03PM (#51303457)

          I guess this is how the long term "revenge" for the crusades will happen.

          Between the death of Mohammed and the time of the First Crusade, the following happened:

          1. The Caliphate invaded and destroyed the Persian Empire. [Much conversion by the sword of Zoroastrians]
          2. The Caliphate took control of over 50% of the Byzantine Empire. [Mass conversion by the sword of Christians]
          3. The Caliphate conquered the Iberian peninsula and attempted to conquer the Merovingian Empire in modern day France.
          4. All throughout that period and well into the Renaissance, Muslim pirates and raiders took huge numbers of slaves from Southern Europe and coastal territories as far as Iceland.

          So no, not revenge. Just a series of efforts by the Muslim world to expand rather violently.

          And after that period we have the annexation of much of Eastern Europe, Lepanto, Vienna, need I go on? Anyone who goes "oh noes, teh Crusades" about anyone other than the poor Orthodox Greeks is an ignoramus.

        • by Beck_Neard ( 3612467 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @05:24PM (#51303629)

          You think muslims around the world are all part of some grand conspiracy to 'take revenge' for the crusades? No, they're just people who see the much greater opportunities and wealth available in European countries compared to the shitholes they live in, and make the rational decision to move there for personal gain.

          As for the 'decline' of Europe, they may be decreasing in number, sure, but they are definitely increasing in wealth (positive economic growth) with the effect that wealth and power is becoming concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals. Raw population size is a poor measure of the well-being of a country, otherwise India and China would be the best places to live.

          • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 14, 2016 @08:28PM (#51304537)

            There are different kinds of immigrant Muslims. The well integrated, secular Muslims whose children or grand children might be as Muslim as the current European is Christian: more than half non believer, but happy to join the families to keep the tradition alive.

            Many Muslims however don't want to integrate. They want to live in Islamic states within the state, where shariah law overrules the states law. If something happens within their community, shariah law will solve it. Police has nothing to say in those area's. These area's where pretty small in the past, but with their 8 children on average and the fact that 50% of them choose a husband/wife from the ultra conservative homeland, means that for every 'radical' Muslim woman there are on average 12 new radical Muslims.

            This causes a lot of problems. Their are too many of them to contain them within their own 'state within the state' and they demand the local people to adjust their habits to their culture. My local school now only serves Halal food, and all local (white) politicians don't have a problem with this. This year the exams are even postponed because Muslim kids are in the middle or the Ramadan. This means that for many families there is no vacation this year. The majority of the middle class people go on summer holiday the week after graduation. This year graduation is postponed with 3 weeks and most workers can't postpone their free days with 3 weeks.

            In the local public pool it is no longer available for males 3 days a week. It's woman only. The woman are no longer allowed to where a normal swimming gear (bad suit / bikini), they should wear one that covers the entire body, legs and arms. This is because some imam interpreted this rule somewhere in the koran.

            Several examples of how the white people have to adjust to the Muslims. Everyone who criticizes these decisions is either a racist an islamophobe or a xenophobe.

            And these aren't people who moved to my country, these are third, fourth and even fifth generations of families who never wanted to integrate. They were all born in this country and always rejected all values that our country stands for.

            They also reject our hard fought for values of freedom, freedom of speech and democracy. They want to replace the current laws with Shariah laws, but since they are only with 12% today, they don't have the democratic majority. With the recent mass immigration their numbers will probably double within 10 years. The immigrants are mostly males and still have to bring their wife(s) and children once they get their citizenship. This means that within 20 years or so, their children will have voting power, and the Muslim parties might become the largest party in our country.

            When you look at the failure to integrate immigrants that started to come in the late 50's, and the failure to integrate their offspring who always use racism as an excuse, I don't believe that the new immigrant will ever integrate (with a few exceptions of course).

            Homophobia and sexism is back alive an kicking, and gay people can no longer walk around the streets like they did 10 years ago. Woman are afraid to walk alone to work or public transport. The police can't control the situation anymore and rich people use private security services to protect themselves. In just a few years political correctness has managed to create the society they feared: a police state, but this time without police but with private security firms on one side and shariah 'police' squads on the other side. The Shariah squad is making patrols in my village. A few weeks ago I was halted by them and they warned me about my running gear. Short pants are not allowed, they are no allowed to come above the knee... Now what can you do against such a squad? They are armed with sticks, police doesn't do anything, so I just stopped doing my daily run... Some people aren't even allowed to let their dogs out because that Shariah squad says Mohamed didn't like dogs, so nobody should let dogs out.

            My region is

        • by mjwx ( 966435 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @08:58PM (#51304643)

          I think it means, if this trend keeps up, that EU culture, the Germans, the French, etc....will possibly start to disappear, being replaced with the Muslims that are pouring in,

          Same Bollocks I've been hearing for ages. They said the same things when the Indians poured into Britain and Australia... Guess what, they've become part of our culture, same with various Asian cultures (Veit and Indo in Australia), Greek culture.

          In fact, Australia treated Greeks pretty badly when they first started coming over... But they still integrated and are now part of Australian history and culture.

          People like you have no clue. You've spouted the same nonsense for decades and every single time been proved wrong. You're less credible and more annoying that the "THEY TURK UR JERBS" crowd.

          • Australia didn't have a culture that defined us as clearly as many of the European ones. The differences in European countries is jarring. By comparison traveling from Australia to NZ to west Canada or northern USA doesn't seem very different.

          • by Cederic ( 9623 ) on Friday January 15, 2016 @03:59AM (#51305679) Journal

            The West Indians came to the UK. They were mistreated, but they engaged and they assimilated.

            The Indians came to the UK. They weren't treated well, they often retained their own culture but over time the barriers have dropped and they largely embraced British culture.

            The muslims came to the UK. They demand British culture change. They demand Sharia law. They mutilate their children. They use violence to pursue their archaic superstitious beliefs and try to impose them on others.

            Sorry but this is a different scenario. Some muslims are engaging, assimilating, embracing British values, finding a balance between their religion and the culture of their country.

            Too many aren't, and are showing no signs of wanting to.

        • by quenda ( 644621 )

          Muslims and other immigrants are just the highly-visible part of a bigger problem.
          Smart educated capable people are dying out, while less intelligent, uneducated and criminal classes are outbreeding them.
          The same is happening within both Muslim and white european societies, and globally.
          Also, the woman in the black hijab with 6 kids under 8 is a lot more visible than the 30yo muslim woman in the business dress who has not started a family yet.

        • by NicBenjamin ( 2124018 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @10:49PM (#51305005)

          That's a bit extreme.

          The thing is that all Europeans, Muslim Arab ethnics as well as native European humanists/Christians tend to have far fewer kids then their neighbors.

          And while cultural change is inevitable in an immigrant society, you generally don't get wholesale replacement. You get a new assimilated culture that takes most of it's traditions from the original, while gaining some from the new guys (ie: the US is still basically an English, Protestant country, despite the fact nobody admits to being ethnically English and we've borrowed Halloween/Christmas Trees/Italian food etc. from newcomers).

    • Well technically the EU kinda is but there are currently problems with some of it.

      Anyway, the US is so easy because English is the standard here and I would imagine that most people that speak more than one language includes English. I will say that EU immigration is somewhat more difficult only because I don't speak the native language in most countries and that will stop me from getting in most places except for the UK. A number of places I glanced at required it so I couldn't apply for those jobs. But I

    • Yes, the answer is most definitely to increase immigration, and in particular to be less selective about immigration.

      But the US really isn't inviting people in. It's almost as bad on immigration policy as Europe is.

      • by bondsbw ( 888959 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @05:17PM (#51303557)

        The more people you invite, particularly when it's a richer country inviting poorer people, the more funding is needed for social programs just to keep the status quo. The folks who pay into those programs don't care for them (paying more for no improvements), and recipients from those programs don't want to risk the programs being reduced to help compensate for the influx. Jobs rarely if ever increase by as much as 1:1 for every immigrant. The economy can't grow if the immigration program outpaces any gains.

        Frankly, the governments these people are fleeing from should be held to a higher standard. Poor people don't move just because they're poor, but because they're oppressed and/or have no opportunity. Oppression is a direct result of bad government. Lack of opportunity is typically a problem of poor economic or social decisions at the government level. (I say this not because I know the right answer, but just to point out that all this "blame" being placed on the country of asylum is really misdirected and should first be placed on the country the refugees are fleeing.)

        • This is generally not a concern for most countries. Usually people move to a new country in the hope of finding work. Social programs just help get them into the workforce faster.

          Sure, I suppose a sudden, large-scale influx could be a problem. But this usually just doesn't happen. And it would pay for itself many times over if the country would simply borrow the money for getting the new immigrants settled.

  • by goombah99 ( 560566 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:16PM (#51303031)

    Well off people don't reproduce as much. But as Idiocracy commented, the idiot crowd can just as well advance the gene pool. Whether we remain civilized or resort to all out tribal warfare, slavery, or feudalism, or leave the world in a choking pulluted, flooded, plague ridden morass with radioactive no-go zones humanity itself will persist. Our aspirations for a egalitarian intellectually absorbed transcendent society are less likely or stable than colonialist domination.

    In terms of reproductive habits, it seems like the fast breeders evnetually win unless the elite take a cruel approach.

    THat said, I think the progress of mankind has been one of elevation, peace, understanding and freedom. So clearly the cynical view is not supported by societal evolution and birth patterns to date.

    On the otherhand there's this years crop of angry republicans that are not very far removed from the president of idiocracy.

    • Life is indeed imitating art, i'm just waiting for that first hit season of "OW, MY BALLS!" to start anytime.
    • I don't get this argument: it is the "civilized" people who have left the world choking in pollution, flooded and plague ridden with radioactive zones. It isn't the stupid people.
      • I think the distinction is between aspiration and outcome. Sadly outcomes seem to defeat aspirations in every case. When we build great new inventions they become advantages of war not advantages for peace in most cases. Things like the internet or solar energy are the exceptions not the rule.

  • Those that constitute the majority now will surely fade out in a few decades. That's guaranteed.

    What makes it worse is that there isn't much that current governments can do about it, though the majority of the population doesn't look forward to being the minority.

    This confirms one thing: Times ahead will be interesting.

  • by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:24PM (#51303103)

    Don't worry!
    The entire population of Syria are already on their way to help.

    • They've already begun attempting to impregnate every woman they see as well. For the betterment of Germany of course!
      • by JustNiz ( 692889 )

        Well, see it from their angle, its probably the first time they've ever seen a woman that doesn't look like a small elephant trapped in a black tent.

  • by ickleberry ( 864871 ) <web@pineapple.vg> on Thursday January 14, 2016 @04:27PM (#51303133) Homepage
    There are more than enough Syrians being left in to cover up for the shortfall.

    We don't actually need more people in Europe though. Giving people a decent standard of living is all that matters, it's just the old-world financial system that demands a constant supply of new people to pay for the upkeep of the non-working population. Making sure these people have a decent quality of life is not as labour intensive as making sure they get a massive pension that they can spend on importing cheap electronics from China.
  • Actually, you need far less people today to produce more work than were needed 100 years ago. Many people are just plain useless for today's society. Less people is the opportunity to have less useless people, that is less angry dudes that don't have a clue of what to do with their life. Unemployment will eventually back down. Overall happiness will probably increase.

  • If there is a case for life extension this is it. Seems like such a waste for a person to live ~70 years, about 20 of which they are at their peak.
  • Did Netcraft confirm this?

  • by ffkom ( 3519199 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @05:11PM (#51303519)

    Just for the record, citing from recent news: "With 43 million people employed and fewer than 2 million unemployed, according to new data from the national statistics office, Germany’s active workforce is now more robust than it’s been for decades."

    Those who cry for more babies are mostly those who'd like to hire more cheaply.

  • population (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Smiddi ( 1241326 ) on Thursday January 14, 2016 @06:06PM (#51303927)
    Population growth and reduction (in this case) is NOT the issue. The issue is that economies have been created and will only work based on population (and subsequent sales) growth; this is why immigration is often "used" to keep a countries population growing. As soon as sales reduce the model falls over. A re-think of the way global economies operate is what is needed.

I bet the human brain is a kludge. -- Marvin Minsky