Native Hawaiian Panel Withdraws Support For World's Largest Telescope 286
sciencehabit writes: Trustees of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs (OHA) – a state agency established to advocate for native Hawaiins — voted Thursday to withdraw their support for construction of the Thirty-Meter Telescope (TMT) on the summit of the Mauna Kea volcano. The vote follows weeks of protests by Native Hawaiians who say the massive structure would desecrate one of their most holy places. The protests have shut down construction of the telescope, which would be the world's largest optical telescope if completed. The vote, which reverses a 2009 decision to endorse the project, strikes a powerful if symbolic blow against a project that, for many native Hawaiians, has come to symbolize more than a century of assaults against their land, culture and sovereignty.
More religious whackjobs (Score:4, Insightful)
More religious whackjobs blocking progress. If they own the land, or represent the majority in a democracy, so be it; otherwise a does of "separation of church and state" would be welcome here. No one should get a free pass on being a religious whackjob simply because they aren't a Christian whackjob.
Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Typically this is more about the gravy not being forthcoming to the local "leaders".
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That could be part of it. Anyone following the project knows that these protests have been going on for a while at low levels, but didn't really kick up until last month at about exactly the same time as when Canada chipped in $240 million. [www.cbc.ca]
There is another part though; the Hawaiian sovereignty issue. Of course, that's a bullshit line of reasoning in a lot of ways (as I discuss here [slashdot.org]). Is this a shakedown for money by activist leaders or way of inciting anger for their own political gains? Probably both,
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More religious whackjobs blocking progress.
I'm waiting to see if it's really religion-based or just another negotiating (shakedown) tactic. A few million here to promote native cultural issues, a few million there into the ÅOElelo HawaiÊi fund, another few million to the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, and suddenly the spirits agree with the telescope being built, and all is good. Such magic.
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Actually, they own the land.
Hawaii got annexed by the USA somewhere around 1900.
Actually as an american you should at least know the basics.
In other words they are a sovereign - not so sovereign anymore nation - that got conquered and anexed by the US aggressors. With all kinds of slavery, suppresion amd racial violence, similar versus the blacks or native americans.
If they would go to an i ternational court they would win any case supporting their secession.
In our times if a country tries to annex another
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Whoever has the bigger military owns the land (or gets to say who owns the land if they don't want it). That's the entirety of "international law". Land ownership is similar.
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More religious whackjobs blocking progress. If they own the land, or represent the majority in a democracy, so be it; otherwise a does of "separation of church and state" would be welcome here. No one should get a free pass on being a religious whackjob simply because they aren't a Christian whackjob.
Ah, but the only church that anybody wants to separate the state from is the Christian one.
No guilt for you (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No guilt for you (Score:5, Interesting)
As a haole[1] living in Hawai`i, I took the time to learn the history and some of the language.
You can't possibly study the events of 1893 and conclude that anything but a monstrous wrong was committed. (I'm writing a novel called "No keia la, no keia po" and to write it I had to read extensively about those days.)
I don't know how to right that wrong. The Hawaiian sovereignty movement has its own ideas, though I don't know how practical those ideas may be. But I do know that something really, really bad was done back then, and it shouldn't be set aside or forgotten.
[1] Today this generally means 'Caucasian' and is sometimes used in a derogatory manner, but in the Hawaiian language, it actually means 'foreigner' without judgmental overtones.
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1893 was 122 years ago. I sympathize with the actual natives living at the time, but they aren't alive anymore. Six "generations" later, I don't think anyone is entitled to reparations. There is an unspoken statute of limitations on this sort of thing. Not a single disgruntled Hawaiian today was born knowing anything other than living with the reality of the rule of the USA - same as any other citizen born in the USA. Why should their ancestry or DNA give them any privilege?
Did you know that my native
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Poi is, um, an acquired taste.
This whole discussion only serves to reinforce my feeling that there are no simple answers to complex issues.
But about the telescope--- I happened to be on the University of Hawai`i campus when one of the early protest demonstrations was starting up. I had to walk down Dole Street to get to where I was going and that meant traversing long lines of (very orderly and well-behaved) protesters.
Most of them were of course students. And listening to them a little, it seemed that quit
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Poi is, um, an acquired taste.
Throw some Thai curry on top of it, taro and coconut go great together. Or just mix it up into some kulolo. I really can't see the whole 'tastes like paste' thing, but that's just my opinion. It's just like any other staple foodstuff, the flavor is somewhat mild so as to complement that which it is served with. That's a feature, not a bug. Now, pa'i'ai, if that was served up more, I'll bet that'd be a much more popular way of serving taro. Pa'i'ai kicks ass.
They were there because the Hawaiian Studies faculty told their students to go.
And could you just imagine the outrage if a
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I have no idea what Pa'i'ai is, but I shall have to put it on my list of things to try next! :-)
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1) Pa`i`ai kind of literally means "slapped food" or "beaten food" which refers to the pounding process to make poi. Poi is pounded taro diluted with water. Pa`i`ai is not diluted. This is interesting, and they'll ship pa`i`ai to you.
http://www.guavarose.com/2013/... [guavarose.com]
2) Poi is great with the right foods. Mixed with lomi lomi salmon --- `ono! (delicious).
3) As to judging a protest by uninformed members, no, it doesn't invalidate it, but when a large percentage of the protesters are there because the profs tol
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I hear spam is much more popular than the poi there, but It could be a myth as I haven't seen any polling data to back it up - just anecdotal evidence. haha.
I have no issues with people protesting. I've had friends that got extra credit in their humanities studies for protesting, though so I find such uninformed student protests dubious.
I don't mean to imply that there is no sense of injustice with the US occupation of the island, but I see it as historical fact, not something we can turn back the clock o
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Actually, I've known about the "reservations" on Hawaii for decades. Interesting how you're an anonymous coward that presumes to know me and what I know.
The luau wasn't a hotel one... geez... I don't think the hotel had the space for it anyway. Never claimed to be an expert on Hawaii btw - but at least I've visited and taken an interest unlike most armchair pundits.
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Wow, that was a lot of hogwash. lol.
When you are born into a country, you must obey that country's laws. Welcome to the planet Earth. I didn't choose to have the legal drinking age set for me at 21 in SC... but it is... and it was when I was born. Not just myself, but EVERYONE's right to self-determination is removed when you live in a country with laws - you are restricted by those laws, right or wrong. The Hawaiians born today are Americans by birth - and if they're of Hawaiian ancestry, they have
I doubt... (Score:2)
Referring to leaders of 1800's or 2000's ? (Score:2)
Too often are people unaware that their wealth, their success, which they attribute to themselves, is actually the fruit of suppressing others, in the past and in the present. And then we don't care anymore.
Are you referring to the leaders and the wealthy of the 1800's (the Hawaiian Royalty who gained their position through conquest) or those of the 2000's (the US)? Because your point applies equally well to the current government and the previous government that some are thinking of as the good old days. You do realize that some of the Hawaiian holy sites are holy because that is where the conquerors from another island who declared themselves royal had massacred the locals who dared to not recognize them and
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While my statement may also hold for those wealthy leaders of 1800 (thanks for that piece of info, btw), I was referring to today. The people from 1800 are no longer alive and can no longer ponder on this. Judging from your comment, I don't expect you to do so either, and maybe it was poorly formulated. "flaming error" did a better job, and I regret he is not modded higher.
The point I wanted to make, is that one of the reasons why the western world is doing relatively well nowadays, is because we stole fr
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Well, you shouldn't feel guilty for things you didn't do. That's obvious.
What seems to be less obvious to you is that nor should you nonchalantly accept past crimes and with a wave of your hand dismiss the grievances of a wronged people.
"The war is over" is the biggest historical cop-out ever heard. As long as morality is equated to victory in war, there will be no peace.
So don't feel guilty about past generations' war crimes. Feel guilty about your own imperialist moralism.
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> Hawaiians voted overwhelmingly for statehood.
That would be false.
Out of a population of 600,000 only 140,000 voted for statehood.
And of that 140,000, tens of thousands were US military servicemen.
Also, the choice was limited between remaining a territory with just half-assed rights but all the obligations or become a full state and get full rights with essentially the same obligations. There was no option for sovereignty.
Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Hard to worry about what happened over a 100 years ago. Had the issue bothered a lot of people, Hawaii wouldn't have voted to join the U.S. in 1959 by 93%.
The "rightful owners" wouldn't stand a chance against whatever power chose to occupy the islands were they to secede from the union.
It's hard to see this as anything more than a routine "pay us off and we'll shut up" shakedown.
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It should be noted that the vote to join the USA was a popular vote by the Japanese citizens, the Chinese citizens, the Parsee citizens, the White citizens, and the Black citizens. The natives didn't have much say at all, since they are a teeny, tiny fraction of the population....
For those who are interested in such things, racial politics are...unusual
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And if the land was stolen from them in an admitted illegal coup? [wikipedia.org]
This, unfortunately, is not a rare occurrence.
However, the fact that they voted 94% for statehood in 1954 suggests that Hawaii's current state of affairs is quite nuanced.
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In the neighborhood were I grew up there was a row of houses that were built on a paper street that had yet to be built. All those houses were accessed via temporary easements running over lots on the adjacent street. But after selling all the houses on the paper street the developer disappeared and nobody wanted to pay for the actual building of the paper street. The people who lived on the paper street just used the theoretically temporary easements on a practically permanent basis.
Once a year the owners
Re: More religious whackjobs (Score:4, Funny)
Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:5, Insightful)
And who exactly should the land "revert to"? Are you going to base this on genetic tests? Should it go back to the first wave of polynesian settlers or the second wave? Maybe it should be purged of all humans and revert to its natural state? Or perhaps handed to the British? Or perhaps the Japanese, who would have conquered it?
Settlement and migration are normal parts of human societies. The land I was born in changed hands dozens of times over the past two thousand years. The idea that the people who first landed on some piece of land have special dibs and eternal rights to self-government is dumb in the extreme. Hawaii should be happy that it became part of the US.
On the other hand, on balance, I'm not sure the US is getting much out of it; so perhaps Hawaii should be kicked out of the union altogether. We'd sure save a lot of money in subsidies.
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On the other hand, on balance, I'm not sure the US is getting much out of it; so perhaps Hawaii should be kicked out of the union altogether. We'd sure save a lot of money in subsidies.
I live in Hawai`i (though not a native Hawaiian), and I'd like to know what those subsidies are that other states don't also get. The chart here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/bus... [theatlantic.com]
shows Hawai`i ranked 29th in the "givers and takers" calculation, in other words, right in the middle of the pack.
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I would suggest that Hawaii's strategic place in the Pacific has lead to a considerable influx of military money, military personnel and associated increase in the economy related to it
The Philippines, which had demanded that the US Navy abandon Subic Bay in the 90's, is welcoming the of the US Navy's return with open arms because of the boost to the economy
http://www.stripes.com/news/us... [stripes.com]
Sure, it is nice to harbor old-timey notions and traditions, but be careful that they do not have long term downsides
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I would suggest that Hawaii's strategic place in the Pacific has lead to a considerable influx of military money, military personnel and associated increase in the economy related to it
Absolutely correct, and as I understand it military is second only to tourism in importance in Hawai`i's economy. However, the "givers and takers" chart supposedly takes that into account, although I certainly admit military money is really important. Hawai`i's economy isn't terribly diversified.
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Just remember, all that "military money, military personnel and associated increase in the economy" also comes with a decrease in quality of life.
Just take a look at Fayettevlle, North Carolina. It's got all the wonderful benefits of having Fort Bragg, and yet it's one of the least desirable places to live in the entire Unit
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Yes, it has a lot to do with how the money is spent
At a purely surface level, Hawaii is largely Dem and North Carolina is largely Rep
It has a lot to do with quality of life, particularly for the people who live around military bases
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I suppose that opinion matters if you are talking to people in Manilla, Palawan or Subic Bay as to what they think the primary benefit is
Chinese encroachment is the primary reason, same with Vietnam, for local governments to welcome a US presence, but localized economic improvement is a benefit for the people who are local to wherever the US decides to drop anchor
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Political issues in Manilla had a lot to do with abandoning Subic Bay. Locals clashed with bused-in supporters because they did not want to lose the money from the base. Those issues have been largely overwhelmed by fear about China these days
The Philippines is a vast, diverse country that does not make an easy one-for-one comparison with Hawaii.
I believe that is is easier to compare the entirety of Hawaii to Subic Bay's local province of Zambales than it is to compare Hawaii to the entire Philippines
While
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Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:5, Informative)
Those are all good points, but the sovereignty activists don't care. Each of them envisions themselves the new king or queen; this is about petty attempts at grabbing power, nothing more. They really don't care if they are wrong about the telescope as long as it gives them something to rally around (Hawai'i resident here; I have actually heard this said by an anti-TMT activist).
They don't want the economic or educational benefits the telescope would bring; poor and uneducated are good for the leaders. They want racial discontent more than then want tolerance; perceptions of persecution are good for the leaders. You can point out to these activist leaders out that Hawaiian sovereignty is an inherently racist idea (it's no better than the scumbag white nationalist groups, not in my book; all race based nationalism is immoral bronze age bullshit). You can point out that everyone born in Hawai'i is an American citizen equal under the law. You can point out the economic problems that would occur the instant Hawai'i left the US, if that were to happen, and that life for their supporters would become much harder. They do not care, and they don't care if Hawai'i goes to shit, as long as they are the rulers of shit mountain.
That's what this is really about. They want people poor, uneducated, angry, and easy to manipulate for their own benefit. None of the benefits the TMT would provide to Hawai'i County's public education system (like the high school robotics program they fund) and economy? That's great to them. They sure as hell don't want other people educating kids. And they do want people to say stupid shit like 'Hawaiians are anti-science' because it creates an us vs them environment (DO NOT SAY 'Hawaiians are anti-science' as some people have; that's racist and not true. Hawaiian does not equal anti-TMT activist). So we are not talking about a benevolent group here. Keep in mind, every year people do off road racing and snow boarding and other things on Maunakea, and leave all sorts of garbage, and no one cares about that. The Mauna is only sacred in so far as a political point can be made, in other words, they don't really give two shits about mountain or the telescope or the supposed sacredness, only what they can gain from it. Or course, if they really cared, they wouldn't be doing shit like introducing invasive ants. [staradvertiser.com]
Additionally, I'd like to point out that if they were really all about ancient Hawaiian traditions, they would realize that there was nothing prohibiting building things on Maunakea and that ancient Hawaiians were active stargazers. There is nothing at all suggesting that this would be offensive. The protestors also seem to be ignoring the fact that their presence on the Mauna would, in contrast, be offense; only the ali'i and kahuna were allowed on the Mauna, not commoners like them (of course, in the modern State of Hawai'i, we are all equals and Maunakea is open to all; there are no castes of people). It's no different than the Christian groups that make up their religion as they go along and pick and choose what parts of the Bible they like in order to justify their current inane actions. It's just like a lot of stuff that seems anti-science on the outside; it's all about someone's power or wealth, you just have to find out who, and in this case it is the Hawaiian sovereignty movement.
Hope that clear up some of the situation here. And the thing is, all of their legal, cultural, economic, scientific, and environmental arguments are complete fabricated bullshit. So whenever the telescope is built (because there is literally no good reason to block it) they are just going to use it as more 'proof' that they are being repressed, and that no one listens to or cares about Hawaiian voices (not [bigislandvideonews.com]
Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:5, Informative)
I've been there too. What most people don't appreciate about Mauna Kea is its staggeringly large size. As a shield volcano made of lava that came out with the consistency of oatmeal, its spread exceeds its height far more than any other mountain. And since that height had to reach 19,000' just to break the ocean surface, at its present height above water this single peak is larger than the whole Rocky Mountain range.
What this means is that of all the world's high mountains, Mauna Kea is the easiest to access. On this gentle slope, a simple graded road is all it takes to get the largest assemblies up there. The smooth dome in an island location not in any storm belt makes for better weather, and more cloud-free nights, than anywhere else in the world. And it's roomy: the University of Hawaii administers an 11,000-acre nature preserve at the summit, with 52 acres in the middle dedicated to astronomy. Seen from above, everything we can put up there just disappears into the landscape.
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only the ali'i and kahuna were allowed on the Mauna, not commoners like them
When Isabella Bird wanted to go to the summit of Mauna Loa in the 1870s, the only major issue was that there were no warm clothes on the island of Hawaii because nobody went to the summit. They rounded up some warm clothes for her (scoured the islands for them) and she did a solo camping trip.
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Why should I believe what you say their motives are over what they say their motives are?
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You're not required to believe anything. He's presented an alternative viewpoint, which clearly has a specific perspective, but this is just a comments page and he has merely alerted you to that perspective. Even if he provided footnotes, which would be overkill, you'd still have a responsibility to fact check if you wanted to derive an informed opinion on the situation.
However, unless you're actually involved in the dispute, or plan to involve yourself, then you can just decide to believe him or not, and
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Just because the answers are complicated and messy does not mean the rights of the people should be abdicated. That's the seductive logic of authoritarianism.
Or nonexistent. Of course, I don't see a problem that needs fixing either.
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if the USA officially endorsed the philosophy that "might makes right" your ideas would have some standing. But we do not.
Have you seen our national seal? An eagle with arrows and olive branches. We dictate the terms of peace because we have the weapons to do so.
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Great Seal of the US - first used in 1782.
US becomes a world power - 1943, perhaps. An argument could be made for 1942 if you tried real hard. Before that? Requires a rather huge stretch....
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"Hawaiians" -- Meh (Score:2)
All this particular interest group is doing by going against good science is making is less likely they'll get what they want.
The world goes the way the most powerful choose it shall go. So it has ever been, and likely will continue to go for the foreseeable future. Going against the good things the powerful do is just one more very efficient way to get them to consider your desires irrelevant -- a really poor way of trying to get the powerful to use said power in your favor.
These people are not "natives",
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All this particular interest group is doing by going against good science is making is less likely they'll get what they want.
No. The demographic of this interest group is ridiculously powerful in Hawaii. See, e.g., Hawaiian Homelands. White people are in the minority, as are science types.
The Catholic Church managed to go against science without a problem for more than a millennium.
"Strawmen" -- Meh (Score:2)
Are you in the habit of erecting obvious strawmen, or was this particular bit of off-target re-interpretation just special for me?
Although it does apply to this group -- they're telling the government, "give us what we want, or we'll try to hose some good science" So perhaps your post wasn't a strawman after all. Perhaps you're just confused as to who the culprit is in this situation.
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Do these natives actually own the land? Legally, I would assume not, or they'd just shut down the project for trespassing.
So, property rights doesn't really come into play here. This is all about use of land which is NOT owned by the protesters. OHA did not change the legal basis for the telescope to continue to be built. It is still legal to build it, it is just on voluntary hiatus while the managers of the project try to work something out so everyone is happy.
Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:5, Interesting)
Just how far back into the past are you willing to go to start righting all the wrongs in the world? Every square foot of land on the planet has been invaded and occupied by an ever changing cast of characters with the most strategic pieces of land having had their borders drawn in blood more than once. And the blood letting is still ongoing right this minute in many places around the world. The entirety of human civilization has been built upon might equals right. Civilizations get built using violence and get torn down with violence and that pattern still holds true today and will most likely continue to hold true until the planet is just a big radioactive ball of lifeless dirt. So how about you go start righting some wrongs perpetrated by people who have been dead for a few hundred years but I'd advise you to build up a significant arsenal before starting on your noble quest. Or you could just be happy with the fact that a small number of US citizens exercised their rights to stop a construction project on land they would rather keep the way it is. It doesn't really matter why they were against the project but I have seen people do the exact same thing to keep a strip mall from being built on land near where they live just to keep the traffic down. No need of sacred burial grounds or state sovereignty issues to bolster their arguments.
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On the whole skin pigmentation has played a relatively minor role in the overall history of human warfare. War is the original equal opportunity endeavor. Human history is filled with examples of people who when lacking an external enemy turn on one another. Since humans started fighting over access to nicer caves there has not been 5 minutes where there has not been some type of warfare going on somewhere on the globe. Fighting and killing one another is the most predictable and constant human traits.
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"The reason why these whackjobs's opinions matter is the US is an invading and occupying colonial power"
And if the Sandwich Islands had remained in the British Empire, or had become part of China or Japan, would the status of Native claims have been handled differently? How would one say, "F*cking haole" in Chinese?
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For them to have remained in the British Empire, they would have had to have been part of it at some time in their history, which they weren't. Up to the time when they became a US territory they were an independent nation, and for most of that time, a monarchy. And, as it happens, the famous song Aloha 'Oe was written by Queen Liliuokalani, [wikipedia.org] the last Queen of Hawaii.
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The "Empire 101" overview of Hawaii-British relations is here:
http://www.britishempire.co.uk... [britishempire.co.uk]
After al, just look at the state flag.
For a much more detailed and personal view, I recommend "Captive Paradise" by James Haley.
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Those ideas are unconnected. The whackjobs' opinions still don't matter.
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Oh please. No human beings are the genuine natives
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In the grand scheme of things they were lucky to have had the USA and not some other power appropriate that land.
Exactly, otherwise there would have been several trade agreements containing Investor-state dispute settlements [wikipedia.org] and they'd have their native asses sued off (in front of a secretive tribunal, of course).
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Well, no, otherwise they would have been deliberately starved, exterminated, and the remaining population dispersed around the empire. They sure wouldn't have to worry about lawsuits.
Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Native Hawaiians had the misfortune of living on one of the most strategically important pieces of land on the planet.
How is that a "misfortune"? They are better off than anyone else in Polynesia, and have one of the highest standards of living in the world. If they want to stick to the old ways and try to eke out a living by trying to grow taro in volcanic ash, they can still do so. Yet for some strange reason, few choose to do that.
Re:More religious whackjobs (Score:4, Insightful)
How is that a "misfortune"? They are better off than anyone else in Polynesia, and have one of the highest standards of living in the world.
Don't make the mistake of confusing native hawaiians with all residents. Natives as a group have the lowest standard of living in the state.
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Like he said... "They are better off than anyone else in Polynesia, and have one of the highest standards of living in the world."
Just because it's a low standard by Hawaiian standards doesn't mean its a low standard with any reasonable perspective.
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And of course it's even a *better* deal for the USA. We get to govern the place, put our military on it, claim the adjacent territorial waters, tax the people who live there etc., in return for the symbolic pretense that we're doing it according to ethical and legal principles. That's the deal.
Occasionally the pretense of principle presents some minor restrictions on what we do, but in that very same grand scheme of things it's still a pretty sweet deal.
Re: More religious whackjobs (Score:2)
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When a nation turns its back against God, the church, and its citizens (abortion), it is all down hill from there.
I'm sure you're right. Which god again? I know I don't believe in 9999 of them, but I sometimes forget what the one is that I don't disbelieve. If these religious whackjobs are elected leaders, and represent the will of the majority, then that's that - doesn't matter why they believe. But if they're some vocal minority trying to use the state as a weapon of their religion, that's clearly not religious freedom, is it?
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It's the same reason why many of the oppose geothermal power, keeping Hawaii reliant on burning oil for most of its electricity. Also why there's opposition to even trying to redirect lava flows as most countries do when their people are threatened (with a number of successful redirects having been achieved).
Apparently Pele wants people to be ignorant of the cosmos, to destroy the climate, and to lose their dearest possessions without putting up a fight.
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So what part of "land owners or majority in a democracy" was unclear to you? People are free to believe in whatever invisible sky grandfather makes them happy, and do with their own land according to those beliefs. But trying to block construction on someone else's land, or on public land if you're not the majority, is the opposite of religious freedom - it's using the state as an instrument of religion.
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Are you being deliberately obtuse? No one has the right to compel these gentlemen to do anything, or take their land, just as they have no right to set the use of anyone else's land. If, however, this is public land (as seems likely), then the government gets to decide what to do with it.
I don't know what their beef is anyhow - build the damned thing on top of the volcano, and if the freaking volcano god doesn't like it, well, I'm sure He'll think of something.
Works both ways (Score:4, Interesting)
If that is acceptable, what about my claim that science is my religion, and the native Hawaiins are desecrating what I declare as holy land? Will they be forced to stop doing so too?
Probably not, which is why we shouldn't allow them to stop us for this reason just the same.
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What if France wanted to build an oceanic research station on the D-Day beaches where the Allies landed and died?
That strikes me as just fine.
Maybe it would be reasonable to ask them to add a small section as a memorial to those who fought and died to free France and perhaps those people could be honored by future research done in their name, since such a research station only exists built by the French because of it.
So sure, go ahead... dedicate the building to the allied soldiers, it would be a nice tribute.
What if Poland wanted to build a university on some of the land that is currently the preserved concentration camps?
What a great way to slap the face of the Nazi's by building our future on top of their evil. You could use i
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The issue is that all of those places are somewhere something else happened or is. The summit of Mauna Kea is a barren desert, with no relics and very little (if any) wildlife, for the same reason that makes it so attractive for astronomy (high altitude and very low humidity or rainfall). The natural and ancient sites (including a quarry, clearly mining was ok) are lower down and protected by reserves.
FlyHelicopters makes a good point, too ...
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Prefer support (Score:2)
I'd prefer having the support of local people. However, religious belief too often stands in the way of telescopic investigation of our universe. Perhaps there can be something done so they feel it is part of their culture after all.
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The TMT people do want the support of the community. They have gone far out of their way to do so, to invest in local education, to invest in cultural affairs, to be respectful of cultural and environmental concerns, ect. The protesters conveniently ignore how much they have done, and misinformation and rumors can be found all over social media.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Or the midgets [wikipedia.org] . I favour them personally.
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Tiki idols... (Score:3)
Peter Brady nods his head sagely....
Grievance Mongering (Score:2)
Blaming this on "religion" is a cop-out. They're waving their "religion" in your face because they know you will crawl on your belly over hot glass to avoid "offending" their "native" sensibilities.
Sounds like a good argument (Score:2)
They also point to management audits from the 1990s and 2000s that found the summit area was being mismanaged by the University of Hawaii and state government and say those issues should be resolved before any more telescopes are built.
That sounds like a pretty damned good argument to me, by itself. Is the summit area currently being mismanaged? Or were those audits merely cash grabs themselves? Surely someone knows more, given the backgrounds of readers of this site. Unless they've all been scared off by now between beta, auto-playing videos, and slashverdicements.
Is it too late to rename the Laniakea Supercluster (Score:2)
wikipedia states [wikipedia.org]
The name Laniakea means "immeasurable heaven" in Hawaiian, from lani for "heaven" and akea for "spacious" or "immeasurable". The name was suggested by Nawa'a Napoleon, an associate professor of Hawaiian language at Kapiolani Community College. The name honors Polynesian navigators who used heavenly knowledge to navigate the Pacific Ocean.[3][7]
And perhaps more importantly, the Nature letter [nature.com] and preprint [arxiv.org]
Build it in Chile (Score:2)
Extreme case. (Score:2)
Cut off all Spam to Hawaii (Score:3)
In one week the Hawaiians will be begging for the telescope to be built.
What Changed? (Score:2)
The mismanagement reports of the 1990s and 2000s existed when the OHA voted in favor of this project in 2009. The size and scope of the telescope hasn't changed since then.
What is different? Why was this acceptable to them in 2009 but not 2015?
Re: (Score:2)
Bribes have sort of an expiration date. It's hard to negotiate a new bribe too soon after getting the previous one. The OHA got their concessions in 2009, they feel they can score some more today.
Warmth? (Score:5, Informative)
Mehana Kihoi. ... âoeWhen you place your hands and your bare feet into the soil, you feel that warmth, you feel her heart."
Liar. Had you ever placed your hands and bare feet into the soil at 13,000 feet atop Mauna Kea you'd know that the only things you feel are hypothermia and hypoxia. It's friggin' cold up there, and the air is barely breathable.
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Cerro de Pasco [wikipedia.org]
14,210 ft elevation, pop 70,000, one of many populations this high up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3)
FAR ÃÂ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen
(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;
But hey, what does the FAA know about thin air and hypoxia.
Re: (Score:2)
It's typically in the 40's (Fahrenheit). It doesn't get above the 50s. Have you ever actually been to the top of Mauna Kea?
Most posts here are missing the point (Score:2)
Most posts here I see are talking about the merits of native title, what it means to be able to claim native title, and who is the native in the first place (Native Title is what land ownership is called in some countries). But really the core point is written write in the summary:
The vote, which reverses a 2009 decision to endorse the project
They endorsed the project and now have withdrawn their support after construction has started. Talk about screwing over a major project. Is there any recourse the project has to prevent them from pulling shit like that again? In c
Cancel *EVERYTHING* (Score:2)
Stop all federal funding for new construction projects in all of Hawaii. Cancel everything. Close all federally funded operations. Close Pearl Harbor and move the base back to the mainland. Cut all federal spending for Hawaii, including energy, roads, and education.
There, now Hawaii is protected.
NIMBYs suck farts off dead chickens in August (Score:2)
NIMBY's suck farts off dead chickens in August. And if you've ever smelt a rotting chicken in the August heat, you know how revolting that is.
The job of a NIMBY is to do whatever they can to obstruct progress. Whether they do it to "protect property values", "save the children", or "stand up for our (religious) rights", they all do the same thing in the end: Say "No" without providing any options.
Every nation in this world is full of conquered peoples. There are more "sacred places" than you can sha
There are two issues here that are being balanced (Score:2)
On the one hand you have an indigenous population that basically had their land stolen from them and their country coopted by the US.
Nothing new for the US only it happened a good deal later than usual. But most Americans believe we should be respectful of these people and do our level best to see that we do what we can to make the nastiness of whole situation more bearable. To that end, they were given exclusive control over one of the smaller Islands along with a lot of rights and subsidies etc. Does that
Re:Certainty (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure the comments here will take into account nuanced perspectives of Hawaiian native history and culture,
You mean the history culture of shaking down any deep pocket involved in a large construction project ?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
> Seriously, I know this whole campaign is a scam whipped up by the Greens.
You are a fucktard.
Every telescope built on that mountain has been protested. The problem has been that the people protesting are the weakest among us. It took the advent of wide-spread social media for their voices to be heard.
Re: (Score:2)
You're posting on the wrong site, buddy. You were looking for is http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/... [greenpeace.org]
IYou could run for office there. I think the post of He-who-waves-torch-at-bears-at-mouth-of-cave is open.