The Students Who Feel They Have the Right To Cheat 438
ub3r n3u7r4l1st writes with this story of endemic cheating in Indian Universities and the students who see it as a right. "Students are often keen to exercise their rights but recently there has been an interesting twist - some in India are talking about their right to cheat in university exams. 'It is our democratic right!' a thin, addled-looking man named Pratap Singh once said to me as he stood, chai in hand, outside his university in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh. 'Cheating is our birthright.' Corruption in the university exam system is common in this part of India. The rich can bribe their way to examination success. There's even a whole subset of the youth population who are brokers between desperate students and avaricious administrators. Then there's another class of student altogether, who are so well known locally - so renowned for their political links - invigilators dare not touch them. I've heard that these local thugs sometimes leave daggers on their desk in the exam hall. It's a sign to invigilators: 'Leave me alone... or else.' So if those with money or political influence can cheat, poorer students ask, why shouldn't they?"
Be the Change You Wish to See in the World (Score:5, Interesting)
You must be the change you wish to see in the world.
I always thought it was bizarrely tautological. If you wish something to be different and you personally can make a choice for it under your control to be different, then you make the correct choice. For example, I don't throw a soda can out the window of my car while complaining about pollution on the highway. Other people obviously don't care but I control the drop in the bucket I'm responsible for and I make the ethical choice.
... I get a similar feeling about this article. I understand it is sometimes harder to play by ethical rules than legal rules when everyone around you is benefiting from misconduct but ... it seems this is yet another example of the caste system thriving in India. It's simply stupefying on the "My dad is Li Gang" level.
But as I got older, I actually found and still find people that think they should be forced to do it the right way even while complaining about the abuse. Case in point, a friend in the medical profession was actually complaining about tax dodges while setting up his own backdoor Roth IRA [personalcapital.com]. When I asked him about abusing the very rules he was decrying, he simply shrugged and said he doesn't make the rules he just follows them. He acknowledged it's shady as hell but pretty much felt like his hands were tied.
It was deeply troubling
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I keep hoping my Verizon stock will crater. They lead the oligarchy that controls the Internet. But until it does collapse, I'll continue to cash my dividends.
There's another tautology out there:
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."
Re:Be the Change You Wish to See in the World (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Be the Change You Wish to See in the World (Score:4, Insightful)
All along I thought this was a nice little anecdote. Now you're telling me it's nothing but a Christian copout for doing the right thing?
How about Jesus saying, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It's the same thing. If you think something should be a certain way, then it's up to you to follow your conscience. Not say, "Oh well, it can't be helped, might as well profit from these slaves."
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irrelivant, that is not a solution to the problem at hand.
>Would the slaves have been better off in Africa, dead of one savagery or another?
yes. the african notion of "slavery" was far better than ours, and far less perminant. they were far more likely to die in some savagery related to either Slavery in the US, or the transporation to the US than th
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Would the slaves have been better off in Africa, dead of one savagery or another?
Hmm, isn't freedom an American value? Would you be happier if the quality and safety of your life was improved at the expense of being much more strictly controlled by another entity?
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I think its kind of irrelevant to remark on the subject of the slave trade, "well, imagine all of the OTHER horrors that would have happened to them if we had not inflicted our brand of horror!"
If the african tribes would have enslaved or brutalized each other, that would be wrong in its own right; but as they did not have the opportunity we cannot blame them for said hypothetical savagery. What we can blame is those who did actually inflict a brand of savagery on them by tearing the families apart and sub
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I think at one point it was true in Africa as well, but the demand for slaves changed the dynamic completely. hairyfeet's attempt to place the blame on anyone but the people buying the slaves is silly, since the end-buyers were fundamental to the economics driving the entire system.
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Actually, "acquiring more" slaves from Africa became illegal in the U.S. in 1808 via the "Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves." That act was passed by both northern and southern congressman, not even two full decades after ratifcation of the Constitution. We started on the gentle path to the end of slavery more than three decades before the civil war.
Suppose, just for a moment, that the abolitionist movement of the 1850's had been led by pragmatists instead of idealists. Imagine an alternate history where
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"Imagine an alternate history where they demanded, not the immediate abolishment of slavery but a "born free" act where any child born in the U.S. was a free citizen regardless of parentage."
That sounds great for everyone, except the slaves.
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So instead of 3,950,000 slaves gradually reducing to 0 over the course of 60ish years, actual history saw 620,000 dead, entire cities in ruins, and a century of violent hatred that has left most slaves' great great grandchildren still living in poverty as a semi-permanent underclass. All of it overseen by an out of control federal government bloated and twisted beyond recognition.
That was SO much better because, you know, freedom.
The lost opportunities were staggering. We were planning to buy Cuba from Spai
Re:Be the Change You Wish to See in the World (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Be the Change You Wish to See in the World (Score:5, Insightful)
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As an educator, I feel I should comment: exams are absolutely unnecessary if you have self-motivated students who just want to learn the material. But neither is a classroom -- just hand them a book and some video lectures, and they'll figure it out. A good university's job is to educate students and certify that the students learned the material. You can't certify that they've learned the material without testing them, and you can't make sure that they learn the material without providing them with incenti
Re: Be the Change You Wish to See in the World (Score:4, Interesting)
I came across a site freelancers.com. Most of the projects on there are for university students cheating on their projects. Just another indicator India has fallen from the bright engineers of the 90's to the dim witted inept engineers that we see today.
Perhaps that, but also because those bright engineers of yesteryear got into it for the interest in the subject. Maybe they were also farsighted enough to see where the position could take them.
These days, tech is strongly, strongly pushed in India as it's seen as a great way to bring in foreign capital. It leads to too many engineers who can't actually hack it, like diploma mills in the US but on a much larger scale.
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The problem with this statement is when others gain a significant advantage for you doing the things you state, but you don't.
E.g.
"If you want the roads fixed then you pay for it, don't increase my taxes"
It is pretty rare for a volunteer tax system to work in all but the most dire of situations (e.g. war bonds).If an issue is a top importance for you, then yes, maybe you can go all the way and help, but for the rest of us, all we can do is cheap stuff like talk.
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I thought war bonds were not a tax, but an investment with an actual return. I probably get more value out of my tax contributions than I put in, but that's largely invisible to me.
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War bonds are an investment, but you could invest in more profitable areas. The war wasn't dire enough for a full volunteer tax, which might happen in a small community that is surviving some large scale disaster and would contribute whatever they can to help the community.
You might get more out of your tax contributions, but you don't get to choose which taxes you pay. Some of them probably don't help you at all.
Re:Be the Change You Wish to See in the World (Score:5, Insightful)
I like your comment, but I do want to point out a difference in magnitude about your example:
Case in point, a friend in the medical profession was actually complaining about tax dodges while setting up his own backdoor Roth IRA [personalcapital.com]. When I asked him about abusing the very rules he was decrying, he simply shrugged and said he doesn't make the rules he just follows them. He acknowledged it's shady as hell but pretty much felt like his hands were tied.
I will say that this example is an order of magnitude different from cheating on a school exam. In this case, the doctor is following the written laws. Of course, the laws are foolishly written in this case, and should probably be fixed, but few people believe that tax loopholes represent a "moral" quandary. (Update - another poster explained that backdoor Roth IRAs are explicitly allowed by the law, so it isn't a mistake apparently. Perhaps the name makes it sound worse than it really is.) Cheating however, is closer to lying. The cheater is lying about their knowledge and skills. That lie denies someone else their right to education, instead granting it to some lazy person who does not have the credentials.
Back to your medical professional, I would still go to a doctor who had a backdoor Roth IRA. But I would not want to go to a doctor who cheated their way through medical school! In America, we mostly accept the concept of "merit," but I'm not sure that all cultures do. It wasn't that long ago that India had castes, where birthright was more important than merit. Is it like racism in the US: publicly most everyone agrees it is wrong but there are still deep-seated biases?
I know very few people who turn down tax benefits because they disagree with that particular tax benefit.
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If you see your action as independent of or an example for everyone else's, then yes. Those that throw litter out the window aren't looking out and thinking "oh, there's room for one more can out there". But if you feel your good action is being used to counter the overall goal, then it's different. For example say you go to a restaurant and think the service was excellent and want to give a big tip, only to discover that the others are just limping in with the minimum to make the total a modest tip. Your g
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Not all examples of "playing the system" are as hypocritical as your doctor friend. Often playing the game more ethically instead of just by the rules can put you at severe disadvantages. In your anecdote the doctor is probably not at a disadvantage in his business if he didn't set up a backdoor Roth IRA, he probably would just have a $750k house instead of an $800k one. But not all situations are as clear cut.
I for instance hate how schools are funded in this country. Property taxes fund the schools, so sc
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I try to live by that creed myself, but in some things it simply isn't practical.
When I was in college one of the courses I took was Communications (electrical engineering communications, not like mass com or something. Cell phone systems and wifi and that kind of thing). The 70-odd year old professor was well known to use the same exam semester after semester after semester. Maybe he might change a number, but the problem was exactly the same. He also allowed crib sheets. So, everybody got a copy of the pr
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I think I'm with your friend on this one. Wishing to live in a better world does not obligate you to ignore that you actually live in this one.
If there were no rules against littering, then I probably still wouldn't, because that is such a minor action. But just because I think we should do away with, say, tax credits for children doesn't mean I don't take my child tax credits. I can think of many many such examples and I don't blame your friend for doing what was legal and in his financial interests -- I s
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. I understand it is sometimes harder to play by ethical rules than legal rules
This is a false dilemma. It really isnt. It takes conscious effort to cheat, it does not happen automatically.
I can blame my good upbringing that the thought of cheating is infathomable to me, but because of that I can note that it hasnt been something I've had to take conscious effort to avoid.
Yes, this means I have flunked classes before. Life moves on, and you learn from it. But lets not minimize cheating down to "well, its kind of hard to avoid" as if it were something that just lands on your life.
Ok... just turned two score, but... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Ok... just turned two score, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a name for the effect, which I can't recall, but we tend to project our current self into our past self's shoes. When someone in their 40s thinks about when they were a teenager, they remember it as if they had the experience and wisdom that they have in their 40s, not as they actually were in their teens. This is one of the main reasons older generations talk about how kids these days are dumber, etc... because they don't accurately remember how kids were in their day, just how they would have been if they had decades more life experience.
TL;DR: You were just as dumb as a kid as the "kids these day" are that you're complaining about... you're just too dumb to account for the decades in between.
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Are you kidding? I was a retarded child. I used to remember my early life with embarrassment; now I don't, but I do remember being stupid. There were definitely mistakes made I will not repeat--mistakes of large and small scale, constantly, every minute of every day. There were severe errors in thought and entirely poor actions. Some of the things I significantly hate about people are attributes I have once, often briefly, possessed; many of the symptoms of defective thought I see adults exemplify each
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Same here. I remember trying to get my first job in high school. I went for the interview and didn't have a resume or anything. I was accepted right away. All I needed to do was buy a couple hundred dollars worth of knives and then go door-to-door selling them. The guy who was jumping to hire me all but promised that I'd make tons of money. My parents refused to allow me to take the job and I remember at the time yelling about how unfair they were and how they didn't know anything. Now, I look back a
Re:Ok... just turned two score, but... (Score:5, Informative)
I think you might be searching for the term "nostalgia bias" otherwise known as rosy retrospection [wikipedia.org].
.
Nothing annoys a young person like an old person talking about the "good old days" especially when there exists objective historical records demonstrating that they were dumber, they had a lower quality of life, their technology was inferior, their brand of politics had horrendous consequences, etc..
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There's a name for the effect, which I can't recall, but we tend to project our current self into our past self's shoes. When someone in their 40s thinks about when they were a teenager, they remember it as if they had the experience and wisdom that they have in their 40s, not as they actually were in their teens. This is one of the main reasons older generations talk about how kids these days are dumber, etc... because they don't accurately remember how kids were in their day, just how they would have been if they had decades more life experience.
TL;DR: You were just as dumb as a kid as the "kids these day" are that you're complaining about... you're just too dumb to account for the decades in between.
Actually, I well remember how stupid I was as well as all my friends. I'd crap if I caught my kids doing 1/10th the stuff my friends and I used to do.
That said - I knew plenty of people who would cheat on tests given the chance, but I don't remember a single one who tried to justify it when caught. They knew they were wrong, they just didn't care.
Claiming that cheating is okay is worse than simply cheating.
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At two score and one, I look back at the kids I knew when I was a kid and realize that many of them were (and probably still are) idiots.
Today my only contact with kids is via the news. The news rarely reported on the smart kids back then too. It reported on the sycophants (spelling bee!) and the phenomenal idiots. As it still does.
So yeah, kids today are idiots. But when was that not the case? Your childhood?
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Not that they are stupid but they're attenrtion span is so short they have no clue what was happening yesterday. Information overload with at your finger tips consumption.
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I am at about the same but, for some reason I don't think they seem any more idiotic than we were at their age. Pretty sure that by my standards today I was a moron at their age.
Which is why the old saying goes, "age and treachery will always beat youth and exhuberance".
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I think the main difference is this:
In our day when we did a stupid thing, only a small group of people knew about it.
Today, when a kid does a stupid thing, a photo/video/post/etc can be shared with the world showing people all over the planet just how stupid this kid was.
Does everyone in the world care what stupid thing RANDOM_KID does? Of course not, but the fact that the Internet spreads this out there so widely can make what normally would have been a "your friends joke about it for a week" incident in
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I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?
Kids!
I've tried to raise him the best I could
Kids! Kids!
Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons!
And wh
Re:Ok... just turned two score, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Just hit my two score birthday, so perhaps its the age talking, but MAN are kids today idiots.
He's right though -- allowing everyone to cheat would fix the problem in no time. It would be amusing because then the previous batch of cheaters would be complaining that their degree is entirely worthless because of all the other cheaters, then there could be some discussion as to why one group should be allowed to cheat while another isn't, and then they can either get rid of grades entirely or try to stop the cheating.
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If you read the article, you'd see why they feel justified in cheating. The outrage shouldn't so much be that these students feel justified in cheating; but in the *extreme* and thorough corruption that their higher educational system has fostered.
It's much like professional cycling, cheating is so widespread and endemic, you literally have to be juicing to be able to compete.
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When I was a kid I knew the other kids were idiots, but then my teachers were idiots. You cant expect children to learn from idiots.
The fucking Gym teacher was teaching the "computer class" he had zero clue so it was all "independent study" until someone broke a computer, then we could not use the computers anymore.
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I tried to actually learn while in school. The teachers/professors gave me bad grades and said I wouldn't make it. Today I make twice as much as them.
Re:Ok... just turned two score, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Depends... I'm about the same age as the parent poster, and I know I've done some dumb things, although nothing that would constitute as autodarwination. No grunge tattoos, no Prince Alberts, no Skid Row-esque ear to nose piercings.
I don't really see the college student age range as dumber. Hell, they have far more info at their fingertips than when I was in college (I had to either use the man command, or actually go to the 1300 page binder that had all the stuff printed out near the room of VT-100 terminals.) The difference is income. Camaros, Buick Regals, and Mustangs got replaced by Civics... and now because of declining incomes, at best, people have low-end Mazda 3s, VW Jettas, Kias, or Hyndais -- cars that people would have sneered at five years ago.
Less income available, coupled with inflation makes people have to improvise. With the Trans-Pacific Partnership allowing for China to have even more control of the US, living standards only will get worse unless one owns a business or is lucky enough to have enough investments to not have to actively seek out work.
The high schoolers I encounter are not dumb either. Stuff that was done way back when (racing, donuts in the parking lot, moving a teacher's car to the football field) would cause a teen to wind up in jail with felony-hard charges, and where I live, there is no definite release date for juvis... they have to "earn" their release in the private prison system... or stay in until age 21. Just telling a teacher off, something that might get an afternoon of detention or maybe a day of ISS... will earn jail time, maybe even a felony. So, high school kids are pretty limited in their "rebellion" to what type of breed of cat pictures they can stick on their backpack in class. Music sucks, as pirates have caused record labels to collapse, and only corporate-made bands are promoed. Yes, one has more bands to find, but the days of having a radio station as something in common with others is long gone.
The kids have not gotten dumber... they just have a pretty crappy hand dealt to them. The wealth in the US has fled offshore, so have the meaningful jobs. Their kids will be the ones walking to school barefoot, in the snow, uphill both ways.
Re:Ok... just turned two score, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember going to high school in the early 80's...
Holy shit did we have it made.
I've been saying for years now that I'm glad I was a kid when I was. Kids today have it rough, and from a multitude of angles:
I'll tell you straight up, I have a lot of respect for Millennials, if for nothing else, all the crap they are faced with...
And the fact that as a whole they are optimistic in the face of it.
My generation(X) had bad attitudes right out of the gate...
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You make it sound like it was paradise in the 80s. It had it's suckiness, just like we do today.
1) There was constant threats of terrorism in the media in the 80s. Take a look at the "Libyans" in "Back to the Future".
2) Helicopter parents were definitely a thing in the 80s.
3) There were plenty of poor example adults in the 80s.
4) I'll 100% grant that entry level jobs are *much* harder to find now.
5) NSA and FBI watched us in the 80s. Ma Bell logged every call ever made. What was that you were saying on the
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record labels collapsed because they live in a time without a viable business model. Don't blame that on the fucking pirates.
As for only promoting pop bands, its what they've been moving to ever since the 1980s, slowly trying to weasel out real music, while leading vicious crackdowns on subculture.
That has more to do with the aftermath of the columbine shootings than it does piracy, where in the aftermath, arrest, harrassment, assault against,
Re:Ok... just turned two score, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
-said every 42 year old in history...
Worthless degrees (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why university degrees from India are about as valuable as a high school diploma in the U.S.
Re:Worthless degrees (Score:5, Informative)
I am from India. I know what I'm talking about. But for a few good schools like IIT, IIM, IISc, AIIMS, NITs etc rest of what passes for college education in India is nothing more than rote-memorization and regurgitation. Both the Physics Nobel laureates of Indian origin (Raman and Chandrasekhar) are alumna of the University of Madras. Today, that univ does not have a single math prof capable of correcting an answers in a Real Analysis examination. The syllabus specifically says, "Real Analysis, with theorems and proofs as stated in the book Real Analysis by Apostal". You deviate from the proof given in that book, the professors are incapable of checking whether it is right or wrong. It is a disgrace to call it a university.
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what passes for college education in India is nothing more than rote-memorization and regurgitation
That's about the same as a high school diploma in the U.S. K through 12 I really only encountered two teachers who both inspired me to think and rewarded me for it when I did. And I came up through school systems widely regarded as among the best in the country.
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1. One of my colleagues went to one of those teacher-parent conferences for his fifth grade child and asked when fractions would be taught. The teacher's response was they don't teach fractions because they're not used anymore. I think of that every time I take out a ruler or tape measure graduated in fraction of inches. My guess is that fifth grade teachers don't know enough to teach the manipulation of fractons.
2. Talked to a high school math teacher and he s
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I'm really interested in your perspective. In America you probably know that we are constantly saying negative things about how bad our schools are. But you are saying that they are actually worse -- much worse -- elsewhere? That... uh... nice to hear I guess?
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When I was in grad school, my research group had a round robin seminar each week, in which we'd take turns presenting conference papers that had just come out in our field (Computer Science). Given that we were all busy with other things, we mostly just skimmed through the list of recent publications, looked for interesting titles, read through a few abstracts (maybe some introductions too), and then picked a paper to present based on those facts alone.
I recall picking one that sounded extremely interesting
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
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Thus, in total value to the employer, an H-1B is worth more. Remember, workers are all interchangeable parts, like an assembly line. With 3 months, we can make anyone a programmer! [slashdot.org]
Worthless degrees (Score:2)
this is why university degrees from India are about as valuable as a high school diploma in the U.S.
Are these public universities? Because a private university would have a strong incentive to catch and remove cheaters so that the value of their degrees are not diminis
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"private university would have a strong incentive to catch and remove cheaters s"
yes, they would kick out people paying them lots of money to get in. There certainly is no incentive in a pure capitalist university to keep rich well paying people enrolled.
"confer meaningful degrees would obviously place graduates more ably and thus command higher tuition"
nope. That would imply that the university would also be honest.
Did you know that in America most private schools are worse at educating students than publi
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"Did you know that in America most private schools are worse at educating students than public schools?"
The only thing that saved my daughter was pulling her out of the utter shit public school system and putting her in a private school. She then started to actually receive the education she needed instead of the Public school barely teach system.
She went from a D student to A because she was no longer stuck having to learn at an 95IQ level that public school teaches at. we cant leav
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If everyone in government and industry cheats... (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't be surprised if students ask for the same thing.
Oh, was this about India? Silly me. I thought the story was about the USA.
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Sigh. True that. We cheat about cheating by pretending we don't cheat.
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The difference perhaps is that in America we are not proud of being cheaters, or at least not yet. If we had student rallies in front of the US capital building demanding the right to cheat they'd be laughed at from both high and low society. Yet this actually happened in India and the government backed down.
related (Score:2)
In other news, Indians felt it was their right to steal information obtained from their employer's outsourcing arrangements from US corporations. Also to operate telemarketing scams to the USA using cell phone numbers that were rotated weekly.
Re:related (Score:5, Insightful)
Quick let's hire more of them to replace US workers. I mean, with high ethical standards like they're expressing, what could possibly go wrong?
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Some days I just can't even (Score:2, Insightful)
So if those with money or political influence can cheat, poorer students ask, why shouldn't they?
Hey, if those with money or political influence can murder someone and get away with it, why shouldn't everyone be able to? It's their democratic right!
Seriously, is this even a QUESTION? The real problem is not that you CAN'T cheat, it's that others CAN.
This explains a lot (Score:2)
India... (Score:5, Interesting)
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You interviewed five thousand people? Are you sure you have that number right? Assuming you interviewed five people a day every single working day, it would take you four years to interview that many people. That's assuming no time off, no sickness, a steady supply of candidates, etc. I know a fair number of people in HR across a few organisations, and they don't manage to interview anywhere near that many peop
Old Saying. (Score:5, Insightful)
So if those with money or political influence can cheat, poorer students ask, why shouldn't they?"
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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You're adding your wrongs when you should have been multiplying them!
See? Now all is right with the world!
Re:Old Saying. (Score:5, Insightful)
But if you need a degree to get a job, and the rich are cheating their way into straight A's.
For all practical reason's, they are in a Hobson's Choice:
Choose to cheat, or don't get an education.
As usual, a simple statement 'Two wrong's don't make a right' completely ignores the problem, remove the person saying it's cognitive function from the conversation, and it completely wrong.
Exams are bullshit (Score:2)
By cheating on exams you're basically fooling yourself.
The point of education is to give you some stepping stone to each subject and something for you to go on when you need to research the subject further yourself.
Re:Exams are bullshit (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Exams are bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
Really? Let's say that you're taking the final exam for a course in Trig that consists in nothing but solving problems (and showing your work) that aren't in the text book. If all you've done is memorize the material but haven't learned how to use it, how are you going to pass the test?
Just cheating themselves (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, most people learn this little gem of wisdom too late in life. Cheating only harms the cheater. It may mildly harm those who employ these people, but it doesn't take long for others to see despite your piece of paper, you're just an idiot who knows nothing, when you cheat.
So I say, if that's what they want to do, let 'em. It'll bite them in the butt soon enough.
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Sadly, it probably means they will go on to cheat future employers.
Imagine, a work force of people who will lie and cheat because they feel entitled to.
WTF do you think they're going to do when they're working for a company? Because, they will talk their way into jobs, and they will be incompetent.
In this case, the cheaters can harm far more than just themselves.
In fact, if they're all cheating ... you pretty much have to assume that tons of employers end up with people who don't actually have the skills a
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A - It may be a lot of harm
"..you're just an idiot who knows nothing, when you cheat."
Irrelevant when you change jobs, like as a consultant.
A cheater hurts the entire industry.
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Just cheating themselves (Score:5, Insightful)
Cheating only harms the cheater...
There is one other group harmed, and quite seriously, by widespread cheating: those who have worked hard and honestly for the best diploma they can both achieve and afford, but see it devalued to worthlessness because too many holders of the same diploma are cheaters, and incompetent.
Cheated from (Score:2)
Don't worry. Your corporate/military/IP is safe. (Score:2)
I mean, with that culture, how could your chip design for the military satellite specification end up in the wrong hands?
Oh, sorry. My mistake. That was outsourced to China via three levels of third party vendors.
What goes around comes around... (Score:2)
These kids, and other kids around the world who cheat or otherwise beat the system are only damaging their own careers. University diplomas don't have the face value they used to -- it's what they do to you, how smart, capable and competent they make you that matters. If you're incapable then it doesn't matter if you have a diploma from MIT (or the Indian equivalent) you're not getting hired. Or fired unceremoniously soon after getting hired.
With online courseware growing at the rate it is, some day, exams
Re: (Score:3)
There are two kinds of accreditation. "Nationally accredited" is the bullshit minimum standard that the diploma mills meet. "Regionally accredited" has stricter requirements and is what good schools meet.
Thoughts (Score:2)
The cheaters? Easy to identify... (Score:2)
when I was in college it was all the Rich kids. Daddy was an executive so they dont have to work hard nor play by the rules. They also paid people to write their papaers, etc....
Betting it's still the same way. The rich kids that daddy is paying their way are still the cheating scum.
Remember (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep this article mind when hiring your next H-1Bs over your American counterparts which undergoes extensive liberal arts and ethics education.
Not really surprising (Score:2)
For years I’ve been hearing how India is posed to take off economically. No one talked about China being a powerhouse 30 years ago, then 20 years ago the litany became India was next and posed to pass China, you know, because of freedom and stuff. I still kept hearing this, but it just never seems to happen. Meanwhile lots of doom and gloom predictions about China that never seem to materialize.
Both are countries are corrupt, but in very different ways. China’s leaders are pushing their popu
In America (Score:4, Funny)
These Indian students should come to America. Over here we call it "freedom of speech" to cheat on things. Elections, mostly.
India baffles me. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's a big country, and I'm sure there has to be some variance between values among people when you have a billion to choose from.
But...
Color me racist. No, please do. I really, really am.
India is a country where unwanted children are dumped like trash into the streets, corruption is considered normal and the atmosphere of hyper-competitiveness seems to push everybody's brain into a crazed kind of fight or flight mode which hampers every other human circuit. I can't be around Indian culture without wanting to hide under furniture to escape the crazy.
Wait. Hold on. This just in: Not racist, per se. Because, interestingly, people who are only one generation removed from that seething land mass are entirely capable of developing into excellent, entirely likable people who aren't completely batshit insane. So it's not genetic vile stupidity. It's cultural vile stupidity. Probably a lot like the heavy crime areas in the U.S. -Pull babies out of those places and raise them in bullet-free zones where people treat each other with dignity and love, and I'm sure you'll get fine, undamaged people that way also.
So, really, I don't care what genetic material you start with, if you force people to endure pressure-cooker lives of massive over-population limited resources and shitty infrastructure, combined with the momentum of hundreds of sustained years of dog-eat-dog corruption, you're going to end up with nothing but vast yields of psychologically damaged people.
India is a problem I don't know how to solve without basically wiping it clean of humans and starting again.
Maybe just the cities.
Folks in the rural areas sound less insane from the traveler's reports I've heard.
Re: (Score:2)
They have the "ability" to cheat. Being "able" to do something does not make it a "right".
Re: (Score:3)
Exactly. There's a lot that people have the ability to do every day though they refrain from doing so. You could walk down the street and just decide to punch everyone in the nose. That's within your ability, but most people don't do this. (Mainly because they would get in trouble for doing so and/or would encounter someone who would punch back.) You also have the ability to walk down the street handing $1 bills to
Re: (Score:2)
Well, that's one way of looking at it.
But, if everyone else is cheating, at a certain point you have to assume you'd be a moron to do it honestly.
It would be nice if people did the honest thing. But if the goal it to make yourself look employable so you can talk your way into a job, that's what you do.
By the time everyone realizes everyone cheated, doesn't actually know anything, and are incapable of doing the job ... the damage is already done.
Years ago, our company had outsourced some of our development
Re:SNOB (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)