Scottish Independence Campaign Battles Over BBC Weather Forecast 286
00_NOP writes "The political battle over Scotland's independence ballot — to take place in September this year — has now moved on to how the BBC project the UK on their national weather forecast. The BBC use a projection based on the view of Britain from geostationary weather satellites and so there is naturally some foreshortening at the northern end of Britain (Scotland, in other words). But nationalist campaigners say this means Scottish viewers are constantly being shown a distorted image of their country which makes it look smaller and hence (in their view) less able to support independence. In response others have suggested that the nationalists are truly 'flat earthers.'"
Firrrst post the noo (Score:5, Funny)
Jings, crivens and helpmaboab!
Will there be a referendum about beta, d'ye ken?
Not the first time (Score:2)
This would not be the first time distorted maps have been used for a political purpose. There is no reason use the Mercator projection on world maps except to make the northern hemisphere countries look much larger than those in Africa and South America near the equator. (Hint: Africa is enormous but is often shown as smaller than North America)
Re:Not the first time (Score:5, Informative)
But if you have a map, which tries a compromise between angle preservation and area preservation, and which does not show North- and Southpole, you will always have the areas of the northern and southern regions displayed larger than they are compared to those near the Equator. This is a pure mathematical necessity and not limited to the Mercator projection. The only way to not have this distortion is not to have the Equator being horizontal on your map.
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Your post is only half correct.
To make it better you could explicitely mention: world map.
Ofc. there are plenty of distance true projections. Acimute projection comes to mind, or Gauss - Krueger coordinate systems.
The point is: those projections or coordinate systems only work (properly) on a local scale.
For those interested, GK coordinate systems are 3 degrees wide stripes (latitude) projected on a cylinder. That means the same location has different coordinates depending on which cylinder it is referenced
Re:Not the first time (Score:5, Informative)
The problem is that any projection of a map onto a flat surface is distorted. There are no un-distorted maps. A map contains serveral classes of important data on a map, and projections mainly affect distances, areas and angles. It is mathematically impossible to have a plane projection of the Earth's surface which correctly displays distances, but you can have a map that preserves angles and a map that preserves areas.
The BBC weathermap is not a true planar projection, though. It's a 3D projection rendered onto 2D, emulating the view of the UK from orbit. Neither ground-level angles, nor latitudinal distance, nor longitudinal distance, nor surface area are preserved. All distances and all areas are reduced. This is because the projection is seemingly taken from somewhere above France, so the south of England is close to the camera, and the north of Scotland is not only further away (hence smaller) but also reduced in height due to the curvature of the Earth included in the projection.
When this first came in (years ago now), the justification of this was that it is more "natural" to look at, and easier to understand... but only a handful of people have ever had the opportunity to see the UK from such an angle, so I can't see what's so natural about it. Furthermore, the BBC initially refused to allow any regional opt-out from the standard projection, so the Scottish weather was on a zoomed subsection of the map, which had practically zero north/south resolution compared to exaggerated east/west.
After a lot of complaints, the BBC tweaked the angles slightly, but the problem still remains. It is particularly irritating that the Gaelic weather forecasts, half of whose target audience are in the Highlands and Islands, is forced to use the same map, where their part of Scotland is so drastically shrunken that a single weather symbol blocks out over a hundred miles on the map.
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In this day and age, there is no excuse for the news media to not transform any satellite imagery so that the topical area is projected as if the satellites was at the areas zenith; and people, buy a globe.
Re:Not the first time (Score:4, Interesting)
While that's true for maps of large areas of the Earth, the distortions become near-zero for small swaths like the UK. All you need to do is pick a viewpoint directly overhead and at a sufficient distance, which is what the Scottish Independence group is advocating.
This whole thing probably stems from the geometry of geostationary weather satellites. To always generate the same viewpoint from orbit, the satellites have to be located over the equator at 35,786 km in altitude. That means countries further north in latitude are distorted in the weather photos. From the 1960s to 1990s, this was just the way it was. You couldn't do anything about it. So everyone who lived in extreme northern (or southern) latitudes had to live with distorted satellite weather photos of their country.
Starting around the mid 1990s, computers became fast enough to correct this distortion in photos in a reasonable amount of time. You could now generate undistorted weather maps of reasonably small countries like the UK. But over the previous 3 decades, people had gotten used to the distorted view from geostationary satellites. When you see a flat undistorted map of your country with weather on it, you think "Oh, that's just a graphic someone drew." When you see a distorted map of your country with weather on it, you think "Oh, that's satellite imagery."
People innately trust satellite imagery more. It's a picture, taken from space. No manipulation, no airburshing (photoshopping for those of you too young to know what airbrushing is), right? Of course not; you can manipulate satellite photos as easily as you can manipulate photos from your phone camera. But that's not people's instinctive reaction. It's a satellite picture, so that must be what the weather really looks like from space. I think that's what the BBC was trying to go for with their perspective-foreshortened view of the UK for their weather forecasts. It gives it a greater sense of authenticity.
Eventually, as people lose this pro-satellite viewpoint bias, the overhead viewpoint maps are going to become the norm. But for the time being, it's a quick and silent way to tell the viewer "this is satellite imagery" vs "this is radar or an animated graphic."
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You must be one of those Gall-Peters "lets make Africa look like a limp dong" map proponents.
Mercator was not made and is not used for political purposes. When it's used in publishing, it's because the square format of the projection fits nicely on a single vertical-formatted book page. If the publisher is opting for something across 2 pages, they'll typically use a reference map such as Robinson or Winkel-Tripel.
Mercator IS used in places like Google maps, because it's great for navigation.
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Most of your remarks apply equally to most of England. Maybe there should be a referendum on kicking out the south-east.
Re:Firrrst post the noo (Score:5, Insightful)
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The way the South East see it they're subsidising the rest of the UK so don't wish too hard for that referendum unless you know what both sides really have on the line. (Disclosure: Proud Manc living in the South East).
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Successive Tory governments have been absolutely ruthless of stripping Scotland of it's assets
As evidenced by the fact that they don't wear briefs.
Bert
Re:Firrrst post the noo (Score:5, Insightful)
Although probably economically beneficial to Scotland, most people want independence for moral reasons.
Oh, has the referendum happened? I thought it was due in September.
Or are we talking only about those (in Scotland) who so far have expressed a preference for independence. Although substantial, I don't believe this is (yet) a majority of those eligible to vote. And we won't know for certain until September.
As to "Successive Tory governments", from 1997 to 2010 we (the UK - I'm rUK) had a Labour government, with two Scottish Chancellors (Brown and Darling), a Scottish Prime Minister (Brown) and a Prime Minister, who if not Scottish, was educated at one of Scotland's top Public Schools (Blair, went to Fettes, in Edinburgh).
Re:Firrrst post the noo (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, I'm sure the rUK could vote in a Labour government on it's own. That was not the point I was trying to make. What I was pointing out was that the phrase "Successive Tory governments" seems to ignore the existence of the last Labour government (1997 to 2010), a government where much of the 'top brass' was Scottish.
(Talking of governments and parties, the McCrone report, although commissioned by a Conservative Government, was suppressed by the Labour Government under Harold Wilson!)
Finally, if Scotland does vote to become an independent country, then I shall wish it well, and hope for ongoing friendship between Scotland and the rUK. If Scotland votes to remain in the UK, then I hope we all continue to strive to make the UK work well for all its citizens.
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This Scotland vs. England stuff is placid. Let's have some real fun around here and talk China vs. Taiwan.
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Why would you have to get rid of the monarchy to have a federation? Australia and Canada are two examples of federations of equal states (provinces) under a monarchy. Not so sure of Australia but here in Canada both federal laws and provincial laws need royal consent to come into effect, usually signed by the Queens representative but the Queen herself can sign them into law.
Just like the Queen in Right of Canada is different from the Queen in Right of the UK, you could have the Queen of Scotland as differe
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anyway, the only people who want independence are the Scottish national party, and even they want everything to be just as it was before only with Alex Salmond declared King of Scotland.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. I am not a member of the SNP. I do not particularly like the SNP. I want Scottish independence. I do not want Scotland to be "just as it was before". I want some things to remain the same and some things to change.
Personally, I think its right that Scotland gets independence for moral reasons - all those Scottish MPs (who are either Labour ot SNP) get to vote on things that only matter in the rest of the UK, so you guys gets to tell us what to do without any for of reciprocity. - so getting rid of those useless MPs would actually be beneficial for the rest of the UK, morally.
It's not Scotland's fault that there is no devolution settlement for England. Personally, I have always thought it ridiculous that devolution is so asymmetrical, with different devolved powers in each of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and none whatsoever for England.
Re:Firrrst post the noo (Score:4, Interesting)
Devolution, perhaps, but the asymmetry could have been corrected by Scotland's MPs. Before devolution, English MPs abstained from voting on things that concern only Scotland, so why do Scottish MPs not abstain from things that only affect England (cf. West Lothian question)?
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The shareholders. Much as I hate to defend the bankers, I remember one of them said something along the lines of "if I hadn't done $ApparentlyProfitableButRiskyThing they'd have fired me and then my successor would have done it".
The same applies also to voters. Suspend disbelief for a moment and assume Gordon Brown had a rudimentary kno
Re:Firrrst post the noo (Score:5, Insightful)
More likely the (Spanish) EU commission president would look very unfavourably on Scottish membership, considering the boost that would give to the independence ambitions of Catalunya and the Basque country. And would it stop there? What about Sicily, Lombardy, Bavaria...? That's the thinking behind the reluctance to see the UK divided within the EU.
Bravemap (Score:5, Funny)
"Would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take OUR MERCATOR PROJECTION!"
Map projections (Score:2)
This is an interesting point actually. Different map projections really do affect the way countries (and especially big countries) look like on the map.
Whether this should have an impact on how the Scottish view their potential independence I don't know....
Re:Map projections (Score:4, Informative)
I picture it being like our hillbillies of the south,wanting to secede @ civil war
Most hillbillies did NOT want to secede. Mountainous regions did not have plantations, so had few slaves, and the people there saw little benefit in secession. The hillbillies of Virginia seceded from their state, and rejoined the Union as West Virgina. The hillbillies of the other states raised regiments to fight in the Union Army. The only state that didn't raise at least a regiment for the Union was South Carolina, which has few mountains.
Time and economy say its right to let Scotland and Ireland go.
It seems the opposite to me. Economics says stay in the UK, and the independence movement is most driven by emotion. Which is why I predict the independence vote will fail. People will follow their heart when answering pollsters, but are more hard headed when casting ballots.
England should let them go and concentrate their efforts instead, on making a beer thats worth a fuck.
Or they could do what Americans do: chill it down so cold that you can no longer taste how horrible it is.
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Wow, that was mostly bullshit, but I give you a +1 used car sales.
Incedentally lager, is the beer that needs low temperatures, because it tastes like diarreah once it warms, unlike a good ale.
I tend toward the artisans of Colorado brewries, Breckenridge brewries,New Belgium,and various others. Anheiser Busch, Coors and the other criminals will one day pay for not putting any beer in their beer.
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absolutely.. buy the T-Shirt [wychwood.co.uk]
Re:Map projections (Score:4, Interesting)
As someone in the rUK all I can do is sit back and accept whatever they decide. That said, I cannot help feeling that if the decision for independence will somehow be influenced on how Scotland looks in the BBC weather map, somewhere the plot has been lost!
As to beer, try Theakston's Old Peculier. Ace!
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We actually fought to get away from England, glad you dont have to. Cheers!
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America fought to stop being oppressed colonies of the English crown (stuff the facade of being a united kingdom). You raise a good point though. In hindsight we should have allied with Scotland, which was a fellow oppressed colony. A two front war would have been a good strategy. It would also have taken advantage of the Franco-Scottish Auld Alliance - which is still in effect. [manchester.ac.uk]
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Actually wealthy plantation slaveholders and their allies in the American colonies (Washington, Jefferson, even Franklin profited from slaves) broke away when it became obvious the British government was going to abolish slavery in the near future. I understand American history books take a different view but since they were written by the slaveholders, for the slaveholders that's not surprising.
Their constant harping on the British crown and George III as the Bad Guy because he wanted to abolish slavery is
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Other factors not often mentioned, Roman Catholics being allowed into government (Americans still hate the French) and the big one, King George recognizing the Native Americans as equal subjects and stopping the theft of land which is why so many land speculators were pro-independence and America went on to steal a huge amount of land as well as purchasing some.
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Roman Catholics [not?] being allowed into government
The US Constitution forbade any religious test for office from the outset. Catholics weren't allowed into Parliament until the Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829. Moreover the House of Lords, which didn't really lose its power until the 20th century, includes bishops of the CoE.
Err, the Quebec Act (1774) removed the Protestant Faith part of the Oath of Supremacy therefore allowing Roman Catholics to be involved in (colonial?) government. America didn't enact a bill of rights (or illegalize letters of attainment) until after they'd purged most the undesirables from the 13 colonies.
Americans still hate the French
You think we hated our allies in the Revolution?
No you hated the French to the north of you, especially when they beat Washington again.
King George recognizing the Native Americans as equal subjects
You're kidding, right? As for trying to temporarily stop westward expansion, the UK's concern was money. It's expensive to keep armies in the field, and they were still paying off debts from the French and Indian War. Remember those taxes the colonists complained about - what did you think they were paying for?
Protecting the colonists who were expanding into the natives land. Even back then some Americans believed in their
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G.B., England, its all the same viewed from our east coast.
Maybe, but it really pisses off the Scots!
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Perhaps Scotland should have a hockey team...
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Perhaps Scotland should have a hockey team...
http://www.scottish-hockey.org.uk/international-teams.aspx [scottish-hockey.org.uk]
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Actually, from your east coast, you can see significantly more Scotland than England. Partly because Scotland is actually as long as England north to south, and partly because Ireland blocks your view of England.
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England should let them go and concentrate their efforts instead, on making a beer that's worth a fuck.
Nothing wrong with English beers, there are a great many excellent ones, and many interesting regional ones to be found. The UK does good beer -- go and find a bottle of Norfolk Nog, and tell me it doesn't taste wonderful, or try a bottle of Fraioch heather ale, and note how refreshing it is.
It might be the case that you're too used to crap beer that needs to be chilled in order to taste okay. Good beer isn't supposed to be served warm, just cool, because you're meant to be able to taste it.
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I actually have had the Norfolk Nog, in the import section of my liquor store, I paid $12 U.S. for a pint.
If you get the chance, do try one of Breckenridge Brewries Vanilla Porters.
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I picture it being like
You picture it wrong. They are unrepresentative. I am Scottish. I am also British, Orcadian, European, Western and various other groupings. The one "British" is good enough for most purposes when doing business or travelling. Scottish identifies what part of the UK and Orcadian could be my ethnicity within that. The modern trend is towards linking states, not breaking them up into non-functional bits.
Because it wouldn't work. Yes they are a long way from the control centres of an over-centralised n
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The modern trend is towards linking states, not breaking them up into non-functional bits.
That's misrepresentative. The modern trend is for countries to get smaller, and for countries to form closer alliances via supra-national entities. Czechoslovakia split in two; Yugoslavia fragmented bit by bit; India was partitioned into India and Pakistan, then East Pakistan became independent as Bangladesh.
Iceland gained its independence from Denmark in the 40s, and Greenland and the Faroe Islands have gradually increased in autonomy, on a slow move that seems likely to end in full independence. It must b
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I just have a hard time taking Ireland seriously because the Irish have one of the silliest sounding accents in Europe. However, you make damned good whiskey, so I support you.
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I understand they make decent stout as well, but, since it gets turned to beer extract before its shipped here and then added to worthless U.S. lager, who would fucking know if Guiness is worth a shit or not. There are so many domestic stouts that just kick the shit out of Guiness + water.
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Well, let Bono know! That prick has been hanging around the rest of the world whining how fucking bad it is living in Ireland and then offering political solutions to fix other countries. Would you please keep him home and give him his shots, tag him and make him wear a shock collar so he doesnt get outside your borders again, like responsible dog owners should !?
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everywhere! (Score:2)
They're everywhere the same. They have this ridiculous niotion that a border reinstated not very long ago makes the people on both sides in any way different.
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Nationalism is a very good tool for the 1%-ers (just like religion is/was.)
You mean UK nationalism? Like all the "rule Britannia, better together" nationalism?
Half right (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, they changed the projection in around 2005. The new format did indeed suck - take a look at the 'this is how weather maps look now' image on this page [bbc.co.uk]. It was a triumph of 3D prettiness over usability and produced wonderfully unhelpful graphics like this [flickr.com] and there was a lot of sulking over it, not so much because of nationalist fervour, but more because it was crap. The BBC themselves claim they had 16,000 complaints [bbc.co.uk]. So they tweaked it, significantly [bbc.co.uk].
It's a shame that the BBC's obsession with shiny things produced a weather forecast that sucked, and it is indeed quite possible that they didn't recognise how much it sucked because of inner-M25 London myopia, although if so the joke's on them because a significant proportion of BBC staff were moved to Manchester fairly shortly thereafter. Since the BBC produces a lot of things that are shiny but happen to suck it doesn't seem necessary to attribute the weather forecast to a subconscious urge to portray Scotland as negligible. Occam's razor suggests that the simpler explanation might be that whoever outsourced the weather forecasting isn't half as smart as they think they are.
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It's not particularly hard to fix: spin the viewpoint around the country. For the southern forecast a view from across the channel (pretty much what it is now). For Scotland spin round to viewing from the north, Wales from the west etc. This then has the benefit that whatever region is being discussed takes up most of the screen and the rest of the UK drops away in perspective.
Whoever they outsourced to is not just less smart that they think they are. They have gone full-retard.
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"spin the viewpoint around the country"
And the even bigger upside is that it would then make sense to display it in 3D prettiness. Displaying a 3D image from a fixed 2D viewpoint is just bad.
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The system is apparently Weatherscape XT [metraweather.com], aka the commercial arm of the New Zealand MetService. See an example that does something more like what you suggest here [youtube.com]. The technology looks quite capable, if a bit gratuitous, so probably someone with a good understanding of how to use such packages could've made something very successful out of it. Weatherscape XT may simply have been doing what the customer requested (no matter how loopy). In view of the AC's remarks on the creative brokenness of the BBC it mig
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it is indeed quite possible that they didn't recognise how much it sucked because of inner-M25 London myopia
One thing to consider is that many more people live inside the M25 than do in the entirety of Scotland...
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now that's true - accountancy breaks a lot of things.
Because each programme had to be accounted for independantly, you'd get the situation where top-end equipment would be bought for the engineers on the series, and once the series was complete would be chucked away. I recall hearing from sound engineers who had to throw perfectly good top-end headphones away because their 'accountancy values' was nothing.
Similarly for TV, I once bought a few rally high-end Dell monitors off a guy flogging them on ebay, tu
Singapore is much smaller (Score:2)
If Scots think Scotland is a bit small to be functionally viable, then maybe they shouldn't be looking at independence then. These people are idiots.
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Scots don't think it. Scots think other people will think it, which they likely do.
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There referendum will fail just like both Quebec's ones.
The difference is that while Scotland would probably be fine as an EU member, Quebec independence would have been economic suicide, and result in the loss of much of Quebec's territory. The Cree always made it clear that they had no intention of leaving Canada, and they control much of Northern Quebec. Goodbye Hydro-Quebec. Several of the southern most counties are primarily English speaking. The Canadian government made it clear that they would retain any part of Quebec that didn't vote for independence, w
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Plus, people like the Scots. Nobody likes the Quebecois.
Someone who is going to vote yes.. (Score:2)
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This is why I prefer American maps. We're massive and you're put in your proper place — anywhere so long as it's small
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Find a global map where the UK isn't enlarged. Land mass doesn't translate to economic power and in turn power in the world.
You're living in the past - the empire is dead.
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Those of us who want to know what the weather is in Scotland care. We're not talking about Merkator making the UK look a little big here, we're talking about the north of scotland being reduced in size by 40 times thanks to perspective, and hence making it very difficult to tell what's going on up there.
Mel Gibson (Score:2)
They can distort their maps, but they cannot take their FREEEDOM!
so british (Score:3)
Like nails on a chalk board (Score:3, Interesting)
This is the Scottish version of "black holes are racist" and the illogic of it makes my skin crawl.
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The point is not that a certain type of projection does not change size ratios between countries (it does), but that not everything is a statement. The same map drastically deforms the coast line of the Netherlands. Should this be taken as a statement that therefore the bbc implies all Dutchmen are barely human mutant scum? No, but that's exactly what Scotland is doing.
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The Dutch don't pay the British TV licence Fee that funds the BBC, so they can't complain.
Their flag has horizontal stripes (Score:2)
They don't pay anything if they can get away with it.
Re:Like nails on a chalk board (Score:4, Informative)
No, the point is that this map is meant to be useful. It is meant to accurately show what the weather is doing in various places. If someone chooses to make the representation of that 40 times smaller (yes, that really is how much smaller shetland ends up with this projection) for some people, than for others, then it's a very clearly biased map.
The point re independence is that while the weather map is clearly a subtle and tiny issue, these things add up. Every time a decision is made, it's made with first thought to London, and 1/40th of the thought to the north of Scotland. As such, decisions are made that are not in the best interest of Scotland, and hence... We should go independent.
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Of Course..... (Score:2)
In perspective (Score:2)
Scotland is a tiny country smaller in area than South Carolina or French Guiana.
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I thought the Danes abandoned their Greenland colony in the 13th century, and the settlers all died.
Last week at the SNP strategy meeting (Score:2, Funny)
Och, Alex, I've got it at last! We can win this thing. Those English bastards think we're a wee bit nuts right? So all we need to do is make them thing we're as mad as a nessie with a haggis on its head, and they'll pop over the border from Carlisle to Gretna Green to vote us independent. Och, we're Scotland after all; where the men wear nothing under their kilts and the fields are thick with thistles. They'll fall for it in no time.
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I can understand what most Scots are saying, since I was brought up in a Commonwealth country that showed British TV shows.
Plus I have some Scottish ancestry if you go back 300 years.
What, Behind The Rabbit? (Score:2)
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Surely they should use Greenwich as the centre point, Thats where the Time Zone originated.
(Except that the US military prefers to think of it as being centered in Natal St Africa
Makes sense (Score:2)
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Why would it head south? If they wanted to be south, they could have moved already. Scotland will still be part of the EU, so who cares? One major question though is what currency they'd use.
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Blame Mercator! (Score:2)
In New Zealand's national museum, I saw a plane world map with the standard viewpoint shifted to directly above the country. There was no distortion of the standard projection, just a shift in viewpoint that made New Zealand look much bigger and more important. On every other map, it's a tiny sliver scrunched into one corner.
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Self-correct: that should be "projectionists," not Mercator. We don't use Mercator any more and if we did, New Zealand would be exaggerated, not shrimpified.
My kingdom for an Edit function. I hope the dreaded Beta has one.
What did they expect (Score:2)
...with all those Scots running around for hundreds of years achieving great scientific and economic advances leading to the greatness of the British Empire?
Surely (Score:2)
Any 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional object will be distorted in some shape or form. Anyhow - if they are that bothered perhaps they should pop a satellite into orbit and make their own weather forecast.
The West Wing had a great segment on map projectio (Score:5, Interesting)
This clip from The West Wing sums up map projection issues nicely: http://youtu.be/n8zBC2dvERM [youtu.be]
Size matters (Score:2)
Well,
it mit look like a joke or pretty braindead.
However lots of americans are convinced their country is bigger than the rest of the world together.
I guess that happens if you don't know anything about maps and the rest of the world.
Scottish Independence and the BBC weather map (Score:3, Funny)
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That actually makes it fairly clear.
I really have no idea if there is anything political in it or if it represents a slight (intentional or otherwise) against anyone, but it does show a very poor use of technology.
Unlike a printed map, they have the opportunity to change the apparent POV and re-do the projection for each frame of the animation. Instead, they take a fixed projection and stretch it.
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The only truly superior option is a globe.
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And all that oil would be outside the EU then.
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Oh totally, the Beeb would be so much better if it produced the same level of lowest-common-denominator shite as ITV and Channel 5.
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The BBC should have a subscription for people in the rest of the world, so that we can watch the quality programmes they make online. I am sure this would be very popular, we wouldn't have to pay the cable companies for the higher monthly cost necessary to get BBC America.
Or maybe Amazon can do a deal with the Beeb so we can get more British programs on Amazon Prime
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You miss the point of the license.
If you could choose not to pay the license, then the BBC must produce shows specifically with the interest of getting as many subscribers as possible. The result of this is that they must appeal to everyone. The result of this is that they must produce lowest-common-denominator shite, like ITV and channel 5.
The entire point of the license is to avoid them having to produce this bollocks.