German Federal Police Helicopter Circles US Consulate 239
New submitter mwissel writes "The German Federal Police ('Bundespolizei') had sent out an helicopter in late August to fly over the U.S. consulate in Frankfurt and take photos from only 60 meters height — reportedly to search for spy antennae and other espionage related equipment on the building rooftops. A government spokesmen more or less confirmed the purpose of the flight, and it is said that Merkel's chief of staff, Ronald Pofalla, gave the order. This is remarkable, because Pofalla so far stood out with a very U.S.-friendly attitude in the debate around NSA surveillance programs. There was, of course, no word about any findings. It also remains unclear whether this was just plain provocation or a PR-stunt for the upcoming federal elections in Germany on September 22nd."
But of course (Score:5, Insightful)
This is remarkable, because Pofalla so far stood out with a very U.S.-friendly attitude in the debate around NSA surveillance programs.
I.e. no problem, so long as we aren't spying on him.
Re: (Score:2)
Most countries don't try to police the world.
Re: (Score:2)
Most countries don't try to police the world.
Certainly not the Germans...
Re:But of course (Score:4, Insightful)
Most countries don't try to police the world.
Certainly not the Germans...
That's a good point actually. The Germans, The British empire, the Ottoman empire, The Roman Empire, and many others, either learned from their mistakes or fell apart. The lesson is you can beat down all comers for a while but you can't do it forever. This is the lesson the US Empire is going to learn.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Economic prosperity mostly depends on international trade which in turn depends on goodwill.
Re: (Score:3)
Economic prosperity depends on expansion.
You state it like a fact. It isn't.
Re:But of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Trolling or genuine, who knows?
Seriously though, if we take your argument at face value, we're forced to ask; who gets to police us? Also, who made our judgements the so-called correct ones? And how can we actually claim authority over international morality when we're pretty much assholes, and do pretty much everything we condemn in others?
Re:But of course (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously though, if we take your argument at face value, we're forced to ask; who gets to police us?
Why, the citizens of that great nation, of course!
Surely, those elected to the highest offices in the land will represent the will of the people.
Re: (Score:2)
Surely, those elected to the highest offices in the land will represent the will of the people.
My sarcasm meter just exploded.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:But of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Believe me, the world needs a cop. And Americans make the best ones. If not for American occupation, Europe would still be in a constant state of war. And the Soviet Union did its part also, even if they are a bit hamfisted about it. I, for one, am very happy to see somebody enforcing some law and order on the planet. I don't think you understand the condition we would be in without it. American power is keeping the peace. You should be very grateful that you can sleep as comfortably as you do.
Americans aren't enforcing law and order on the planet. They are enforcing law and order when it suits them for their economical and geopolitical interests. It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.
Re:But of course (Score:5, Insightful)
It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.
So ... just like the police then, eh?
Re:But of course (Score:4, Interesting)
It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.
So ... just like the police then, eh?
Not really, no. I don't know where you live but over here in Europe (at least in several countries in Europe) most of the police work is really done to enforce "law and order". Of course, there is the occasional political arrest and other police actions that are deceitful and/or manipulative, but it is the exception, not the rule.
The foreign actions of the USA is quite the opposite: You may find one being genuinely innocent, but the overwhelming majority of it is just here to server internal US interests, not "law and order".
Re: (Score:2)
It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.
So ... just like the police then, eh?
Not really, no. I don't know where you live but over here in Europe (at least in several countries in Europe) most of the police work is really done to enforce "law and order". Of course, there is the occasional political arrest and other police actions that are deceitful and/or manipulative, but it is the exception, not the rule.
That's odd, if I google for "selective enforcement in the UK" for example then I get lots of results. Pick any country with good english-language reporting, you'll see the same.
Re: (Score:2)
That's odd, if I google for "selective enforcement in the UK" for example then I get lots of results. Pick any country with good english-language reporting, you'll see the same.
So you go with the assumption that a selective enforcement gets the same internet-related coverage than a regular enforcement. So, with this new light, do you think the fact that there are a lot of results for "selective enforcement in the UK" is any indication for anything else than "There are selective enforcement in the UK". Which ultimately proves nothing and most certainly do not disprove my claim.
Re: (Score:2)
So you go with the assumption that a selective enforcement gets the same internet-related coverage than a regular enforcement
No, I go with the assumption that any place it's talked about a lot, it's a problem, because media usually underreports such issues because statistically nobody really gives a fuck.
Law and Order (Score:2)
There used to be a "Law and Order UK" it was created by the guy Dick Wolfe who created the US Law and Order shows.
They played a couple of seasons on BBC america, but I haven't seen it on for a long time.
One of the Crown lawyers was played by Freema Agyeman, best known for her role of Martha Jones (A companion of David Tennant Dr Who
Re: (Score:3)
Depends on district. There's a lot of variation. Some areas the police are truly serving the public, others they a de facto mafia enriching themselves through theft and extortion.
Re: (Score:2)
Is that what they teach you in American schools?
They taught me about the balance of power. If the stalemate between Russian and the US ever became too lopsided the bigger side would began subjugating other countries to it's side and looting the world. Guess what happened? The US did exactly that.
Re: (Score:2)
Too communist, fascist, spreading a cult faith and the West German gov would get interested as noted in West German law.
East Germany had their own special role to play for their Russian liberators.
West Germany was expected to understand its role as a trusted third party in the wider NSA networks.
Unlike some parts of the world this aspect was known rather than having to be exposed by whistelblowers
Of course it's a PR stunt (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Of course it's a PR stunt (Score:5, Interesting)
Not even military. Germany has foreign and domestic intelligence agencies - the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) and the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz (BfV), respectively. They don't need the po-po's helicopter to check for antennae. They already know or can reasonably guess what intercept equipment is on-site at the consulate (and other sites).
If this stunt's goals were any more transparent, birds would be smashing into them with the frequency of that Hot Butter song.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Of course it's a PR stunt (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. Read the Vienna Convention if you are seriously interested in it. Espionage from the embassy building is explicitly forbidden. And the belief that the embassy is US territory is very much wrong. All that the Vienna Convention says is that the embassy and all the property belonging to it are immune to search or seizure, and that agents of the host country may not enter without consent of the embassy staff, that's it.
Re:Of course it's a PR stunt (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep and also the Consulate is legally US territory anyway so they can put what the hell they like on the roof.
They can't. According to German law, any act happens in the country where it takes effect. Putting up an antenna that illegally monitors radio traffic on German territory takes effect on German territory and therefore is a crime that would be prosecuted in Germany. In other words, the people responsible better not leave their consulate without diplomatic immunity.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yep and also the Consulate is legally US territory anyway so they can put what the hell they like on the roof.
But is the air space? I mean if a private jet happened to fly over a city would it need permission from every embassy it flew over? I don't think that's even clear in anyone's law.
Obviously flying 60 meters over a US building is a political stunt anyway. If they want high resolution photos they can take them from the ground and from higher up.
Re:Of course it's a PR stunt (Score:5, Insightful)
You realize every country in the world uses its embassies as the central headquarters for their intelligence apparatus in that country. So you know that row of embassies in Washington? Every single one of them does the exact same things or tries to. They're just not as good at it.
Meet an old friend (Score:5, Interesting)
They're just not as good at it.
I might want to introduce you to an old friend called FSB (née KGB).
Yes, I know your currently outraged a the massive surveillance and interception network that the NSA has built itself recently. But you should probably realise that a time when those who took the decision to start this program weren't even born, there where other organisation which were already been doing it routinely.
Big surprise #1: OMG the NSA is massively spying on everyone including it own population at a scaring level.
Big surprise #2: Others have been doing the exact same for ages and are probably similarily good at it by now. (Russia and China are probable good candidates for having NSA-like infrastructures, capabilites, and gathered data)
Re: (Score:2)
You realize every country in the world uses its embassies as the central headquarters for their intelligence apparatus in that country. So you know that row of embassies in Washington? Every single one of them does the exact same things or tries to. hey're just not as good at it.
Or they're better at it. Nobody's talking about Germany's spy agency and what they do.
Re: (Score:2)
If a spy doesn't want to take too much risk, he can always abort mission and send the bluprints of a vacuum cleaner back to headquarters instead. Nobody will figure out what it means.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's vacuum cleaner blueprints?
Re: (Score:2)
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/rubig/rubig-eyeball.htm [cryptome.org]
60 metres to photograph the site sounds a strange cover story? What could a normal sized helicopter carry in Germany at this point in time wrt quality sigint collecting?
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Support_Activity [wikipedia.org] made in Germany? Why the low distance?
Re:Of course it's a PR stunt (Score:5, Informative)
Every gov knows what Russia, the UK and US do with their "Consulate" floors
Oh come now A., the club is bigger than that! The majority of countries get in on the spy game at some level.
The Germans: The German Prism: Berlin Wants to Spy [spiegel.de]
Very involved in the current crisis: Assad did not order Syria chemical weapons attack, says German press [theguardian.com]
The Finns and Swedes can't be left out: Supo wants expanded net surveillance powers [yle.fi]
Nor the French: France 'runs vast electronic spying operation using NSA-style methods' [theguardian.com]
The club is bigger still: Think US snooping is bad? Try Italy, India orCanada [qz.com]
Thousands of Russian spies in US: ex-CIA agent [ndtv.com]
Gordievsky: Russia has as many spies in Britain now as the USSR ever did [theguardian.com]
Chinese Spies Targeting U.K., MI5 Warns [informationweek.com]
But of course! Chinese use honeytraps to spy on French companies, intelligence report claims [telegraph.co.uk]
Germany accuses China of industrial espionage [theguardian.com]
Germany targets Russian, Chinese spies [abs-cbnnews.com]
Spies in Sweden mostly from China, Russia, Iran [thelocal.se]
Number of Foreign Spies on the Rise in Finland [theepochtimes.com]
Austrian capital ‘filled with Iranian spies’ [jpost.com]
Foreign spies targeting Polish shale - Natural Gas Europe [naturalgaseurope.com]
Spain arrests three suspected of spying for Iran [haaretz.com]
Russia warns Ireland it will retaliate in spy row [bbc.co.uk]
FBI releases papers on Russian Irish spies in US - ‘Ghost Stories’ [irishcentral.com]
Sometimes the trails can get very complicated.
For some reason this video comes to mind: Its a Small World [youtube.com]
Re:Of course it's a PR stunt (Score:5, Insightful)
Germany has a very advanced military, it could certainly get photos of the roof of a building more covertly than sending out a helicopter and making a public statement.
It is time someone made a public statement. No one seems to understand what this NSA spying means. I have yet to see anyone address the most troubling aspect of the NSA spying. The present, in power President has now got 100% access to all information about the opposition party. He can read their mail, listen in on all calls he has access to all confidential data from reporters, judges, congressmen and senators. How can his party lose? The only information the party in power does not have is mouth to ear communication and snail mail. This is equivelant to high tech WaterGate times 1000. At the close of the Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin said "You have a Republic, if you can keep it". I'm sorry to say this but "We had a Republic, but it appears that we have indeed lost it". The U. S. government can not function when one political party has all the phones tapped and reads everyone's email. That is why we used to have a fourth amendment.
PR stunt unlikely (Score:2)
It's unlikely that this is a PR stunt of the government to soothe the public. To give you some background information: the election campaigns here in Germany are in full blast now. The opposition used the recent revelations by Snowden to accuse the Merkel administration of breaking the constitution and betraying civil rights and values. The strategy of the coalition was to downplay everything, ensure everyone that the NSA was not pulling a dragnet through everyone's private data, and that there really way n
Re: (Score:3)
> Instead, it reveals that officials have little clue about what foreign intelligence is really doing on German soil.
You really think the german government doesn't have drones? You think they couldn't buy a freaking off the shelf hexacopter with a camera and get the same intel? Do you really think they don't already have detailed photographs of that building?
This was a stunt to make a point.
Re: (Score:2)
Group talking about keeping the best pic "forever". 1970's building, not listed on the Austrian official 'embassy property' list ie private but ~guarded by the Austrian gov?
Interesting how photography was treated around a ~'private' building - ie from public property by the Austrian gov.
2006 a police presence was noted - antenna, CCTV activity, sat dishes
Interesting story about a cold war front group "sting" site near the building for people collecting reading material interested in Sovi
TFA tells us of the real mission: (Score:2)
They broke some China.
Spying indeed. They were just trying to help.
If it was... (Score:2)
... just a PR stunt or an investigation of espionage, might I suggest dropping 60" frankfurters on Frankfurt? Either way it's a win!
Ich bin hungrig. :(
The Art of Diplomacy (Score:5, Interesting)
The Art of Diplomacy, it is said,
is saying "nice doggy" whilst you look about
for a large enough stick.
Gamesmanship (Score:2)
Gamesmanship [wikipedia.org] is the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win or gain a serious advantage in a game or sport. It has been described as "Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught, using whatever dubious methods possible to achieve the desired end" (Lumpkin, Stoll and Beller, 1994:92). It may be inferred that the term derives from the idea of playing for the game (i.e., to win at any cost) as opposed to sportsmanship, which derives from the idea of playing for sport. The term originates from Stephen Potter's humorous 1947 book, The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship (or the Art of Winning Games without Actually Cheating).
This smacks of cold war gamesmanship. I've known a few spooks and what they had in common was a deep seated sense of gamesmanship.
What's a spy antanna look like? (Score:5, Insightful)
How is one meant for spying different from any other type of antenna?
I realize there are different antennas for different frequency...
Unless of course there are ones that are only made for those frequencies used for espionage and not anything else... "Is this optimally made for listening to encrypted transmissions and not broadcast radio or TV signals?"
Hopefully, Fry's has them on sale in the espionage section.
Re: (Score:3)
I'd ask the German federal police about this. After all, counter-intelligence against foreign state agencies is their bread and butter... (/snark)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Try a google image search for embassy antennas for the more public pics over many years.
The more interesting work was done inside taking up a lot of space.
Re:What's a spy antanna look like? (Score:4, Informative)
Most if those don't look like they'd be used (or useful) for spying. They look like they're for communicating with the host country directly (not through local infrastructure). Most of them are satcom dishes and HF antennae for long distance communication.
Re: (Score:2)
The spy antennas are the ones hidden inside spherical covers to 'protect them from the weather,' with the incidental effect of making it impossible to observe what type of antenna it is or where it points.
Re: (Score:2)
It's made out of the black Pringles can, not the red.
Re: (Score:2)
That, or it's a mobile phone base station. They are sometimes disguised as trees or signs in order to avoid scaring suggestible locals who worry the radiation will give them cancer.
But what's really the truth? (Score:2)
reportedly to search for spy antennae and other espionage related equipment on the building rooftops
That's what they *say* but the helicopter was really trying to draw fire.
We trust the American people... (Score:3, Insightful)
We trust the American people... it's just your damn government we have a problem with.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:We trust the American people... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'd even go further and say that I even fully trust the US gouvernment to have only the best intentions.
But we all know what the road to hell is paved with.
Re: (Score:2)
We trust the American people... it's just your damn government we have a problem with.
Well, it's staggeringly stupid to trust the American people. We're the ones responsible for the American government.
Re:We trust the American people... (Score:4, Informative)
You do realise that the American govt is full of American people right?
Sorry. My mistake. I do trust the American government now that I know it's full of American people.
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
It was a mistake, sorry (Score:4, Funny)
In the name of all Germans I want to apologize for this. It was a huge mistake...
Sorry.
In Response (Score:2)
Nothing to see, move along. (Score:2)
S.O.P. (Score:2)
Heck, if the Germans didn't know about any visible gear by now, their spy boss is an incompetent buffoon and needs to be shipped back to whatever cave he crawled out of.
Re: (Score:2)
Parlament election (Score:5, Informative)
Just to give some background: Germany will have parlament elections on Sep 22nd, i.e. in 2 weeks.
Re:Parlament election (Score:4, Insightful)
This.
It also remains unclear
Uh, no it doesn't. The current ruling coalition is not guaranteed to continue having the majority after the election. We will most likely keep our mother-troll, mostly because she spent the last 10 years wiping out everyone who could challenge her within her own party, but it's unclear if they can rule with their favorite coalition partner or someone else.
Of course this was a publicity stunt. Ponfalla is not in the business of stuff like this unless it is of personal important to the government.
Re: (Score:3)
You're an idiot. The only reason this country is still standing is because we learnt during the Kohl era (her mentor, btw) how to run a country without a government, because its official attitude is basically that they're not interested in running the country.
The greatest strength of Germany is that it really doesn't matter who's in the drivers seat, because we have long removed the pedals and the steering wheel from there anyways.
If you want to understand Germany, the first thing you need to know about pol
"an helicopter"!? (Score:2, Insightful)
"an helicopter"? How far can this idiocy of putting "an" in front of any word beginning with h go?
It's "a helicopter".
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It is NOT silent (Score:2)
You don't say "elicopter". You DO speak the "h". Silent really, REALLY means "silent".
Re: (Score:2)
You don't say "elicopter"
You can't consider the word on its own; English's indefinite article simply does not work like that. Do you say "a helicopter" or "an 'elicopter"? Both are actually correct, depending on how you pronounce the construction overall, and that's generally somewhat variable.
Language. What a mess.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, I have two excuses for this 'idiocy':
1) English is not my first language
2) I was writing that text in the middle of the night (local time for me)
Don't forget:
3) I was distracted by the helicopter circling above.
Johnw should have not been so rude in pointing out your mistake, so that you would remember the lesson and not just his poor attitude.
This is a case (Score:2)
When a Stinger missile would come in handy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRTngtsOY8Q [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Great move, when you're a guest in another country. Remarks like this remove all doubt about why Americans have to wear Canadian flags when they're traveling.
Of course, they don't act any different, so now they're giving Canadians a bad name, too.
No suprise here ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Ronald Pofalla is know for his - how shall I put it? - errrm, ... lack of subtleness. How the _chancelors_ chief of staff can order a _police_ helicopter to do what's basically a military/state _intel_ job is totally beyond me though. ... It raised a lot less of a stink than I would have hoped for.
We have these nutcase scenarios where people seem to break every rule in the book just for the heck of it. At the G8 convention in Heiligendam we had high-tech tactical bombers helping out the police gathering intel on demonstrators.
My 2 cents.
This is all a bad joke (Score:2)
As already pointed out, The west German government was upto their necks in supporting this during the cold war, they know how it worked and were willing partners. Not to mention, under the UKUSA Securty Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement [wikipedia.org], Europe and European Russia are under the UK's responsibility to spy on, the least they could have done is fly over the right consulate.
Re: (Score:2)
I agree. As an American citizen I demand that that the US take their helicopters and fly from house to house 60' from every bedroom window in Germany to ensure there isn't any spying equipment trying to spy on our consulate. In the name of transparency, all video should be streamed live on the internet. Fair is fair.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Just being more thorough.
Re:This article caused me to have a vision : (Score:5, Insightful)
They fucked Greece over by loaning them 100.000.000.000 euro that everybody knows will never be repaid? Greece has been fucked over by the Greeks. If they have a problem with the terms and conditions of the rescue package then they are free to refuse the money.
Re:This article caused me to have a vision : (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, Greece has been fucked over by the Greek government and the complicity of Wall Street. When joining the euro, Wall Street (Goldman Sachs, mainly) actively helped the government conceal the level of debt (which would disqualify them from being in the euro). The eurozone didn't do their full due diligence due to the breathless headlong rush to get the Euro under way, making it ridiculously easy for the Greeks to hide their debt problem.
And now it has come back to bite the eurozone (and the Greeks much harder) on the ass.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes they did. Sure, Greece shares some blame but their creditors went into this with their eyes open. They are like any other predatory lender that led to the financial collapse. They were so busy counting thei rprofits that they forgot to do any due dilligence. They just assumed that they mess they were creating would be cleaned up by someone else.
It's just like the US mortgage debacle but on a grander scale.
When a banker acts like a crack dealer, the banker shares the blame for the end result.
Re: (Score:3)
Greeks are the only one to blame for Greece's problems. If you have every third guy working a public office, earning 14 salaries a year comparable to what a German academic earns and finance all of that piling up debt... you deserve to fall flat on your face.
But that didn't happen because German taxpayers are now vouching for hundreds of billions of Greek debt.
So please, shut the hell up.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
So you want credit both for stopping Germany from becoming a great power, and then for making germany into a great power? Just want to make sure I understand what goes on the "America Fuck Yeah" score board.
but don't pretend Germany isn't where they are today because of US support
Such arrogance, it almost boggles the mind.
The US isn't spying on Germany to undermine their sovereignty or protect them or any such bullshit, they're spying on Germany because Germany is a powerful nation with a lot of industry
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not just referring to the economic aid in purely monetary terms. I'm referring to the shift in thinking from "we have to keep Germany down" to "we have to build Germany up", which in a large part was thanks to U.S. influence and pressure on the other Allies.
This was not an act of selfless compassion of course, as the U.S. was interested in a bastion against communism, but that does not diminish the argument.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
> the USSR did more to win the war in europe than the USA.
The US dismantled the German war machine. That's nothing to casually sweep under the rug. Just ask anyone old enough to remember Dresden or the rest of Germany after the war.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, and that helicopter, was trawling an EMS (ElectroMagnetic Signals) antenna as well as a P-Band InSAR (Interferometric Synthetic Aperture Radar) antenna.
And that helps find antennas LISTENING to something instead of broadcasting something?
Re: (Score:2)
The local oscillators of radio receivers can be detected, and what they give off can infer which frequency band is being listened to.
Re: (Score:2)
US foreign policy has never been worse than now
You have to be joking.
The U.S. and every other country in the world spies using all means at its disposal. The Internet was invented in the U.S. Sorry, but whoever is surprised and shocked at the current revelations is clueless. That is one thing.
The other thing is Vietnam war, Iraq war... if you think U.S. foreign policy is worse now than during Nixon or Bush, you are double clueless beyond hope of recovery.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The other thing is Vietnam war, Iraq war... if you think U.S. foreign policy is worse now than during Nixon or Bush, you are double clueless beyond hope of recovery.
You know, they have this thing called "the news" where you can find out that our president is pushing for an illegal war with Syria. The truth is that nothing has changed, except that we are continuing to edge towards utter fascism.