Snowden Offered Asylum By Venezuelan President 380
First time accepted submitter aBaldrich writes "Edward Snowden was offered 'humanitarian asylum' by Nicolás Maduro, the president of Venezuela. The country's official news agency reports (original Spanish, Google translation) that the decision was taken after a meeting of the presidents of Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Suriname, Uruguay and Venezuela. Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European countries, and that he is acting 'on behalf of the dignity of the Americas.'"
The Guardian confirms.
How Will He Get There (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
If nothing else, how about a boat? Russia has a coastline, so does Venezuela. All he has to do is get Russia's permission to enter for a few hours. Or a helicopter to a boat. Or a seaplane. Or a special flight taking the long way flying around Europe, then down the Atlantic. The question is more about how much Russia is willing to help him- given that they haven't just handed him over, my guess is they'll be happy to help him leave.
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He doesn't want to take a boat...... too easy for the boat to be boarded in international water....
With a plane, you can attempt to force it to land with threats of shooting it down, but there is less chance that the US would actually shot down a plan killing him than of them boarding a vessel in international waters to take him.
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Interesting)
He doesn't want to take a boat...... too easy for the boat to be boarded in international water....
With a plane, you can attempt to force it to land with threats of shooting it down, but there is less chance that the US would actually shot down a plan killing him than of them boarding a vessel in international waters to take him.
Maybe Russia ought to send him to the International Space Station. That would really poke at the USA and there's nothing the USA can do about it since we've failed to maintain our space program so it's not like they can send the CIA after him, and the 3 Russian crewmembers can keep him safe during his stay. Then after he leaves the ISS, they can just have the Soyuz touch down in Venezuela.
It would actually be kind of amusing to see the USA's reaction to Snowden sitting aboard the ISS, releasing a new classified document each day.
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
No one has seen him there, so who knows where he is? Even the USA lost track of him if they erroneously tipped off European countries that Snowden was on Boliva's presidential plane.
You are assuming the US erroneously tipped of European countries. It could also have been a calculated action to signal to Bolivia of things to come if they mess with the US. If so, the US should rework the math, because it doesn't seem to have worked out as planned and raised the ire of many neutral allies and countries.
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Interesting)
The US did not stop or search the plane. The countries denying airspace also admitted the US did not request any such action. If the US really wanted this guy what makes anyone think Venezuela or Bolivia can stop a military snatch and grab? The US certainly had no qualms about going into Pakistan to get what they wanted and Pakistan has nuclear weapons and a sizable army backed up by armed militants spread across the country just looking to kill an American. If Snowden returned to the US he would have a very public trial where his guilt would be assessed. He cannot be disappeared. He would have an opportunity to go before a jury and make his case. If his actions and intentions are so admirable it should be no problem getting the jury to find him not guilty. However, if he keeps releasing information about US foreign intelligence operations that have nothing to do with capturing data of US citizens he will be seen and treated as a traitor to his country. He is undoing any good that he may have achieved with outing the US domestic spying programs. Those looking to put his head on a spike would bolster their arguments and criticisms.
If he is the one releasing that data. According to his own claims and the original NSA reports, he didn't have data on foreign intelligence operations. So, could the release of foreign intelligence operations be a misdirect keep him from being seen as a hero to the american public? It wouldn't be the first time the government tried to disgrace somebody with misinformation, nor would it be the last (assuming it that it is actually happening).
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
The US holds one of the six "unspankable" seats in the UN.
While there are technically things they could do, in the real world there is very little they can do against any of the 6 permanent members of the security council that would have any teeth.
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I think that Bolivia's presidential plane falls into the definition of diplomatic immunity. And even with that, they had no problem in stopping it and even trying to have a search on it. They are just past of the point of caring about it, in fact threating both Russia and China about his delivery, immediately after he said that US was very aggresively spying on all of them (as in i.e. hacking their own phone networks [scmp.com]) shows that the little they care about treaties and the consequences of their acts, just or
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The peace prize nomination was done before his 1st MONTH in office was up and was given based on the campaign promises he made, non-proliferation agenda and statements that he would reach out to the Muslim world. This was before NDAA, failure to close Gitmo, continuing most of the Bush practices and the raid into sovereign Pakistan to kill bin Laden.
It's hardly disingenuous to have a change of heart based on the actions between now and then and differences between promises and policy.
Russia is getting something based on what they do (Score:5, Interesting)
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the US may plan an interception over international waters once it leaves European airspace
What exactly would they do? Before the aircraft heads out over the Atlantic it would have sufficient fuel to complete its trip. You can't board an aircraft in-flight no matter what the movies say (certainly not an unwilling aircraft). About the only thing the US could do is threaten to shoot down the aircraft unless it diverts. That is a bluff that is unlikely to work, especially if the aircraft is carrying other passengers (potentially they could just divert an airliner to stop in Moscow and pick him
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That aircraft was shot down in error, not deliberately (well, the error was in identifying it as a threat - the shootdown itself was obviously deliberate). I don't think the US would be likely to target any airliner unless it were carrying a nuclear bomb towards NYC or something crazy like that.
I don't think that the example you cited really has any relevance here. Maybe if somebody was suggesting that Snowden get on an airplane and have it take off from an unfriendly country and dive at a US carrier or s
Re: How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, kill the person that exposed the illegal violations of your 4th Amendment rights. Quickly, go cower in your corner with yur gunz. The terrorists are after you right now! They are everywhere!
Re: How Will He Get There (Score:3, Funny)
Crowd source a charter flight, and pack it full of snowden lookalikes. Extra points for a snowden lookalike flashmob in the airport
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Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Interesting)
I think that Evo Morales, the Bolivian President, was the "designated drunk" in this case. My guess is that Morales didn't know anything and that someone is playing a deep game, leaking misinformation (about Snowden being on Morales's plane) to the CIA so that the CIA could destroy its credibility and cause a diplomatic debacle by asking Spain [wsj.com] (and others) to stop the flight.
You can bet that the next South American leader flying out of Moscow will not have their plane stopped. That is so convenient for certain parties that I have to feel that it was not accidental.
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You're right, it was likely intentional. Did you ever stop to think that it was the South Americans that leaked the false info? Just because they're poor, doesn't mean they're dumb. They have people working for them a hell of a lot more educated than you or I. When and if Snowden makes it into their country there is going to be a heavy price to pay when the US starts flexing its bank accounts and the CIA trys to subvert their leadership. They need a solid reason to have done this so their people will rally
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:4, Funny)
We have room in Canada, I will pick him up on my battle moose.
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Some random private jet will take him. The united states can't stop all traffic out of Russia. That would be insane. More of a concern is if Russia betrays Snowden or the US has people inside Wikileaks or some other espionage is going on.
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Informative)
Those countries have denied doing so.
Except that France has already apologized [bbc.co.uk].
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Informative)
And Spain's Foreign Minister has said that Spain was told that Edward Snowden was aboard the Bolivian presidential jet [wsj.com], and that that was why the plane was diverted [guardian.co.uk].
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
It was a test to see how they would react if they want to get Snowden to safety. Leak false information and see if the plane would get into trouble. Now thy know how the US and its poodles will respond they can think of something better.
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Interesting)
It was a test to see how they would react if they want to get Snowden to safety. Leak false information and see if the plane would get into trouble.
I to have to wonder if Snowden pulled a counter-intel move, knowing that the NSA was listening in on some conversations and deliberately fed them misinformation to provoke a reaction.
Whether Snowden simply pulled their chain or they are so bumbling incompetent that with their $50B/year budget the NSA can't figure out if a guy has boarded a plane in the Moscow airport - it sure makes them look massively incompetent.
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Right ... the US government is going to fuck over international relations with an entire continent just to provide media distraction for something only one step removed from what they want to blow over.
If they were really looking to distract the media they'd wag the dog somewhere completely unrelated to the NSA leaks, like invading Syria.
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Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.france24.com/en/20130705-spain-says-it-was-told-snowden-bolivian-flight [france24.com]
http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/05/3486761/how-the-hunt-for-edward-snowden.html [miamiherald.com]
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2013/0705/Faulty-lead-linked-Snowden-to-Bolivian-jet-European-officials-say [csmonitor.com]
France apologises in Bolivia plane row
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23174874 [bbc.co.uk]
"France has apologised to Bolivia for refusing to allow President Evo Morales' jet into its airspace, blaming "conflicting information"."
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
One would wonder about the nature of that "conflicting information". Did they think it was a CIA rendition flight? No, right, kidnapping and torture is ok, it's transportation of asylum seekers that must be prevented.
The fall of western civilization into vile barbarism is painful to behold. These stains cannot be washed away.
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
Correction: Bolivia claimed that some countries denied the Bolivian president permission to enter their airspace. Those countries have denied doing so. At this point I have seen no information which allows me to reach a conclusion as to which side is lying. I have greater distrust of the Bolivian government than I do of the other government's involved, but I cannot see a clear enough motivation for them to make this up to overcome my distrust of the other governments. Which leaves me to the conclusion I already stated: I don't know who is lying.
Conclusive evidence it is not, but it would be an incredible stunt to turn a plane and head to a Viennese airport and then shout from the hills that the plane is grounded and attempting to be searched.
I mean maybe the Bolivian president has too much time on his hands and is shooting the latest Jackass movie, or maybe the other countries are attempting to back-peddle after causing the most stupid international relations snafu in the past few years. I mean it could all be a big lost in translation moment, but one thing is known for certain, Morales was not scheduled to land or refuel at Vienna, and a routine refuelling stop should not have taken 12 hours.
Re: How Will He Get There (Score:5, Informative)
Their are recordings of air to ground radio between the pilot and ground control floating about. The pilot is practically begging for a place to land. Should check it out if you can find it. The YoungTurk's YouTube feed has some of it in one of their stories.
Re: How Will He Get There (Score:5, Informative)
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No, permission was indeed denied by a few, a couple more denied landing permission.
The French quickly apologized (let's keep the "all French == cheese-eating surrender monkeys" talk aside) because their president is a sort of idiotic cheese-eating surrender monkey who is afraid of upsetting his socialist "friends".
I know Portugal's parliament voted against an apology, but as far as I've read, nobody else has said anything along the lines of "We're sorry" or "We have nothing to be sorry for".
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Spain admitted it as well
http://news.yahoo.com/spain-were-told-snowden-bolivia-plane-173406207.html [yahoo.com]
Thats three of the four accused countries.
Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo told Spanish National Television that "they told us that the information was clear, that he was inside."
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I don't know what the aircraft's status was at the time, but if fuel was running low enough, then denying permission to land is effectively the same as denying a flyover.
Re:How Will He Get There (Score:5, Insightful)
US pushing other countries to do its bidding, is more believable then the alternative that the president of Bolivia, and all of those on board were lying.
If you asked me if any government in the world was lying compared to the word of an individual, especially when that individual is supported by witnesses and flight logs, I would most certainly believe that the government was lying.
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US pushing other countries to do its bidding, is more believable then the alternative that the president of Bolivia, and all of those on board were lying.
And the west european countries admitting it as much that it was about Snowden.
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It's proven fact in the rest of the world. As you can see by the many replies to your post that I'll not bother repeating. I just wanted to point out that most of our media here in the US is completely ignoring the biggest story of the century. That's why your so ill-informed. Keep that in mind when consuming news from the US in the future. It's now clear that our government as at least some control over our media, if not quite a bit.
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That's my point, exactly. Look at the ruckus it caused. Would the US really try that again?
I think they would. They could even get the Europeans involved to take the blame again and not explicitly even mention them. The only thing they might do differently is double check their intelligence info next time. All the US has to do is quietly ask the Europeans to do it and ask them not to admit that they were the ones who asked. They cannot be officially blamed without proof and there won't be any.
The flaw in that theory is that it violates international law and they would effectively be asking their European allies to take the fall for them. There would have to be a pretty good reward to risk sanctions from other countries.
Luis Posada Carriles (Score:5, Informative)
Cuba Flight 455 blown up, 78 people killed, Posada Carriles [wikipedia.org] (who, BTW, was trained by the CIA at Fort Benning) escaped Venezuela to the US, and currently lives in Miami after the US refused Venezuelan extradition, on the grounds that he could be tortured if extradited. (Judges generally don't do irony.) He was tried, and acquitted, in the US for entering the country illegally, in the course of the trial his lawyers made the interesting statement that ""The Defendant's CIA relationship, stemming from his work against the Castro regime through his anti-communist activities in Venezuela and Central America, are relevant and admissible to his defense."
Although you will find barely a mention of the connection in the English language press, Juan Cole [juancole.com] connects the dots.
Re:Luis Posada Carriles (Score:5, Insightful)
but blowing up an airplane, that's like, totally political! releasing files on state wide surveillance system is totally different, that's a common street crime!
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Oh, thank you mbone. This will be my top card from now on.
What a piece of shit country I am living in.
Re:Luis Posada Carriles (Score:5, Insightful)
No, its not a piece of shit country, its got piece of shit people running the place and they have created a system that ensures they stay in power. The country itself is very decent overall. In a sense you have put a lot of people in jail who shouldn't be there as part of the "War on Drugs" fiasco, and a lot of politicians, corporate CEOs and Intelligence types who should be put in jail but haven't.
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It IS a piece of shit country, literally, you can't find toiler paper, sugar, coffee, cooking oil, powder milk and lots of basic items, prices were up 5% in just a month, and that's government numbers, no production means almost everything is imported, no access to $USD means companies going bankrupt. And don't get me started on crime, kidnappings and civil liberties.
Source: i live here!
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Your description of Venezuela is accurate, but mapkinase was talking about the US, for sheltering Posada Carriles. I doubt that the CIA ordered him to blow up that plane, but that scumbag shouldn't be walking free around Miami, and it only helps the Castros.
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Have any proof of that? That is pure 100% speculation.
I don't think anyone will be able to fault you for fair mindedly ignoring the obvious regarding the behavior of leftist anti-American regimes.
Nicaragua, Venezuela offer NSA leaker Edward Snowden asylum [nypost.com]
Maduro said several other Latin American governments have also expressed their intention of taking a similar stance by offering asylum for the cause of "dignity."
Chavez, who hand-picked Maduro as his successor, often engaged in similar defiance, criticizing U.S.-style capitalism and policies. In a 2006 speech to the U.N. General Assembly of world leaders, Chavez called President George W. Bush the devil, saying the podium reeked of sulfur after the U.S. president's address. He also accused Washington of plotting against him, expelled several diplomats and drug-enforcement agents and threatened to stop sending oil to the U.S.
Maduro made the asylum offer during a speech marking the anniversary of Venezuela's independence. It was not immediately clear if there were any conditions to Venezuela's offer.
But his critics said Maduro's decision is nothing but an attempt to veil the current undignified conditions of Venezuela, including one of the world's highest inflation rates and a shortage of basic products such as toilet paper.
"The asylum doesn't fix the economic disaster, the record inflation, an upcoming devaluation (of the currency), and the rising crime rate," Venezuelan opposition leader Henrique Capriles said in his Twitter account. Maduro beat Capriles in April's presidential election, but Capriles has not recognized defeat and has called it an electoral fraud.
Doing it for the "dignity" of the country isn't doing it out of concern for the human rights of Snowden. It is to enhance their national self-esteem while hurting the US.
...one of the most powerful, evil, and corrupt governments in the world. ... The US does not have any sort of ethical limits to its actions ...
Really? Really? I think you're overdue for calibration. I strongly urge you to watch at least the first, if not both.
The Soviet Story ( [youtube.com]
Venezuela background (Score:3, Informative)
Slightly dated now that el Presedente Chávez has passed on, but I doubt much has changed since. I'm sure Snowden will be happy if he makes it there, although he should probably bring toilet paper with him.
Venezuela toilet paper shortage sends ordinary lives around the bend [guardian.co.uk] - 23 May 2013
Scarcity of toilet rolls seen as part of 'general malaise' in which Venezuelans have to use guile during shortage in many staples
Venezuela crackdown deemed worst in years [yahoo.com]
Chavez Wasn't Just a Zany Buffoon, He Was an Oppressive Autocrat [theatlantic.com] - Mar 5 2013
Like an old-style dictator, he treated the state as his personal plaything but, unlike one, his power rested not on violence but on genuine popular affection. Venezuela's history since 1999 has been the story of that contradiction playing itself out across the lives of 29 million people.
Chávez's insistence on absolute submission from his supporters paved the way for the rise of an over-the-top cult of personality. As questioning any presidential directive was a sure career-ender for his followers, the upper reaches of his government came to be dominated by yes-men. Further down the food chain, too, extravagant displays of personal loyalty were required from every person in every nook and cranny of Venezuela's massive and fast-growing state apparatus, with state-owned factory workers required to attend rallies and clerical personnel fully expected to donate part of their salaries to the ruling party.
Instead of a police state, Chávez built a propaganda state, one that churned out slogan after slogan stressing the intense, personal, near-mystical bond between him and his followers. . .
Finding no resistance, Chávez gave free rein to his creative streak. He changed the country's official name, shifted its time zone by half-an-hour on a whim and added an extra star to the flag. At one point, he ordered the National Coat of Arms changed on his then 9-year-old daughter's suggestion. When an opposition satirist responded by publishing an Open Letter to the First Daughter -- reasoning that if she was now making public policy, people had a right to address her -- Chávez had the paper that printed the letter fined for violating a child's privacy.
Venezuela [heritage.org] - 2013 Index of Economic Freedom
In 1999, Hugo Chávez won the presidency, vanquished the traditional party system, and launched his Bolivarian Revolution aimed at “Socialism for the 21st Century.” Chávez styles himself the leader of Latin America’s anti–free market forces and has made alliances with China, Cuba, Russia, and rogue states like Iran. He has persecuted his political adversaries and critics, restricted media freedom, undermined the rule of law and property rights, militarized the government, and tried to destabilize neighboring Colombia. The national assembly, which he controls, passed a 2009 constitutional amendment allowing him to seek yet another presidential term, and he won re-election in October 2012. Venezuela has Latin America’s highest inflation rate (currently nearly 30 percent); chronic electricity, food, and housing shortages; and skyrocketing crime rates.
The judiciary is dysfunctional and completely controlled by the executive. Politically inconvenient contracts are abrogated, and the legal system discriminates against or in favor of investors from certain foreign countries. The government expropriates land and other private holdings across the economy arbitrarily and without compensation. Corruption, exacerbated by cronyism and
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chavez, like every other latin american dictator and pseudo-revolutionist, preferred the term "Comandante", instead of presidente.
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Chavez didn't care. You could call him informally just Chavez or Hugo, and not only he wouldn't mind, he would appreciate it.
He was formally the President. And as in many (but not all) countries, that position also entitles "Commander in Chief".
It was the people who used the titles out of admiration or such, and everyone would use a different one as they see fit. They felt addressing Hugo was possible, like a neighbor or friend, unlike the usual politician in the opposition.
Chavez was very close to the peop
Nice try, asshole (Score:5, Interesting)
The reality is that Chavez did more for social conditions in his country than any other president in living memory. USA hated him viciously because of his oil-based power in OPEC, plus his aversion to letting them control the destiny of Venezuela and from there the rest of latinamerica. And that's pretty much it.
You're pretty transparent.
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That's why 1/3rd of the countries occupation is thief. And why when 40 are killed in a weekend in Caracas, it's normal. Venuzuela is a shithole, and a super dangerous place por gringos.
I never felt more relieved than when I crossed the border to Colombia after leaving that shithole.
nice try yourself (Score:3)
The reality is that Chavez did more for social conditions in his country than any other president in living memory.
Yeah, except for those rampant human rights abuses [google.com]. "Social conditions" includes things like free speech, whether you feel you can get justice, feel safe. Even if what you claimed were true - that his people were better off with him than without him - the ends do not justify the means.
Whether US government officials (not "USA"; don't confuse a country's government or leadership with its p
Re:Nice try, asshole (Score:5, Interesting)
"Health care is the same or worse than it was 15 years ago"
Only in the private sector, not in the Cuban-Venezuelan program "Barrio Adentro", simply the best medical attention can be obtained there for free. This mission was made to bypass the unwillingness of Venezuelan medics to aid the poor, but it ended surpassing the most expensive clinics, so much even wealthy people end going there, especially after the private medicine dries them dry and they have sold their last property trying to stay in a private clinic.
The fixed exchange was a direct result of the opposition sabotage to the economy in 2003. While I'm not personally in favor, it is true that if the opposition behaved back then, we wouldn't have it today. So i blame them entirely for it. The only way out now is the Sucre, our future regional coin.
You cannot choose a worse timing to talk about corruption, when right now very high officials are being detained for this. Maduro is clearly showing a no corruption policy, within his limited powers. He is, after all, the executive, not the judiciary branch, which is were most of the corruption still exists.
But yes i know, you are so used to repeat like a parrot the lies you and the opposition invented so many times, it's pointless to show you facts, as you'd rather cover your eyes instead than facing truths.
So what if they visit other countries? President Chavez brought up international relations with the world like no other leader did for Venezuela in history. So what if the US relations went down? Instead, relations with the entire world went up. The way USA behaves towards us made that an obvious outcome, if any country tries to be friends with another, it will lower their relation with USA. The USA doesn't like you trading with others, period.
So President Chavez brought up the nearly non existent relations with neighboring countries in Latin America and the Caribbean, with giant powers such as China and Russia, the Arab bloc, several Asian countries, etc.
The USA brought their relations down on their own. So they decided to ban weapons sales?, what are we supposed to do, let our army equipment go rust? Of course we went to the international market, and the best is from Russia, hence the Russian equipment; and the deals were even better, with technology transfer included.
Aww, the Americans don't like us dealing with Russians?, well that's too bad, so be it. It's not like we didn't try to keep those old F-16s still operating, but there comes a point when you have to replace them as getting parts from a third source becomes prohibiting, what with the US threatening everyone from selling their military technology to us. So yes, Sukhois it is, and MIs and AKs and whatever our Russian and Chinese friends provide that Americans don't want to, to keep our forces operational.
And so what if Iran provide us technology for Milk processing? or tractor technology from Belarus? It was the US gov who blocked the trades, it's not like we didn't try. We barely managed to buy American (floating) power plants thanks to our Citgo company.
Just like Cuba, how many Americans do you think tried to make business deals with us blocked by their own gov.? Cuba is not rich, and still they traded something they had in abundance: Medicine and health care for a bit of oil. That was one heck of deal, compared to prices of private medicine, is like we are ripping them off. But their solidarity prevails, and we provide a very needed resource so we are both happy. That is what international relations are about, not becoming lapdogs of the USA.
Re:Venezuela background (Score:5, Informative)
Not to bash Venezuela, which has many fine things about it, but also on this theme of what he is getting himself into.
Not exactly the same, but from someone who tried to gain asylum in Venezuela and ended up leaving including due to aspects of culture shock: ... ... ..."
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110706_mcr_evolution.shtml [fromthewilderness.com]
"The Bolivarian Revolution and Venezuelan culture inherently knows that it cannot make too many exceptions to the rule that diversity must protect itself or else the rule will have no meaning. Thatâ(TM)s exactly what I was asking it to do (though I didnâ(TM)t know it) when I came here. I am not just one migrating gringo. Mike Ruppert could not be assimilated without changing something here: the Tao of politics.
That is why, after 15 weeks of waiting, after only one interview, a formal petition and a lot of pressure from influential Americans and Venezuelan-Americans (some with direct government connections) I have not heard a word on my request for political asylum. Venezuelans are inherently suspicious, let alone of a blond gringo who is an ex-policeman who came from a US intelligence family. It is possible that within the massive and glacially slow bureaucracy, some who are not loyal to Chavez have buried my request under a pile of papers. In Latin America things take much longer and I can see now that the waiting process, never guaranteed to be successful, is part of a natural selection.
The important distinctions about adaptivity are not racial at all. US citizens come in all colors. American culture is the water they have swum in since birth. A native US citizen of Latin descent who did not (or even did) speak Spanish would probably feel almost as out of place here as I do. They would look the same but not feel the same. And when it came time to deal collectively with a rapidly changing world, a world in turmoil, a native-born Americanâ(TM)s inbred decades of âoeinstinctiveâ survival skills might not harmonize with the skills used by those around him.
Start building your lifeboats where you are now. I can see that the lessons I have learned here are important whether you are thinking of moving from city to countryside, state to state, or nation to nation. Whatever shortcomings you may think exist where you live are far outnumbered by the advantages you have where you are a part of an existing ecosystem that you know and which knows you.
If the time comes when it is necessary to leave that community you will be better off moving with your tribe rather than moving alone.
And:
https://www.osac.gov/Pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13038 [osac.gov]
"The U.S. Department of State rates the criminal threat level for Caracas as CRITICAL. In 2010, Caracas became the deadliest capital in the world with the highest murder rate in the world, averaging one murder every hour. Much of Caracasâ(TM)s crime and violence can be attributed to mobile street gangs and organized crime groups. Caracas continues to be notorious for the brazenness of high-profile, violent crimes such as murder, robberies, and kidnappings. Armed assaults and robberies continue to be a part of everyday life. Every Caracas neighborhood is susceptible to crime. Reports of armed robberies occur regularly, day and night, and include the generally affluent residential sections of Chacao, Baruta, and El Hatillo, where host government, business leaders, and diplomats reside. Studies and reports cite a variety of reasons for the critically high and constant level of violent criminal activity in Caracas including: a sense that criminals will not be penalized; poorly paid and often corrupt police; an inefficient politicized judiciary; a violent and overcrowded prison system; overworked prosecutors; and the
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All, bad, but lets keep things in context, his other option is arrest, torture and likely death at the hands of our very own benevolent government. I've been to far worse countries than Venezuela. Life is livable, most people are nice and not gang members, if you have any money at all you'll do fine. The US has likely frozen all his assets but hopefully he was smart and took large quantities of cash. If not I'm sure there will be plenty of people that will give him a bit of cash. You can live very well for
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...will install such a hose, and never buy stupid toilet paper again
From USA, on a septic system--local waste processing with older style septic tank (settling tank) and leach field. I like the idea of not using tp, but I've always wondered how you dry your ass after washing (bidet, hose or other). Is there a community towel for this purpose--yuck!! Or, do you just pull up your clothes and walk around damp?
Typo, I hope (Score:2)
Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European Countries
I hope that should read "Maduro denounced an attempt at 'colonizing' by several European Countries,"
Mistranslated but still EU acting like colonies (Score:3)
Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European Countries
I hope that should read "Maduro denounced an attempt at 'colonizing' by several European Countries,"
From the Huffington Post [huffingtonpost.com]
"The European people have seen the cowardice and the weakness of their governments, which now look like colonies of the United States," the Venezuelan president said.
Edward Snowden must be gnashing his teeth. (Score:5, Insightful)
After exposing massive metadata-based surveillance by his government, he might have to take asylum in a repressive country that routinely has conversations between opposition politicians recorded, edited, manipulated and shown on state-owned TV. That is, excluding the ones that had to flee or were jailed on bogus charges. The bitter irony cannot be missed.
Why do almost 50% of Americans support this spying (Score:2)
Poll after poll shows just under 50% Americans support giving up their basic civil rights to protect their security. Why?
Can anyone explain why people who live in a country famous for valuing liberty are so quick to give their own liberty away for a false feeling of safety? Is it cowardice? Is it ignorance?
Both cowardice and ignorance (Score:4, Insightful)
Ignorance. come on, the whole world jokes about how ignorant Americans are. An American couldn't "get it." No need for discussion and Americans are nearly hopeless to talk to about it, they are unjustifiably overconfident or dismissive on the issue. The Press is nearly dead... a farce. Good education is undermined and attacked (it's always easy to find something to complain about to justify attacking the parts that WORK. Critical Thinking, dead. Civics, dead. Creative Thinking, dead. School psychologist, gone..how dare they blame parents! Math test scores were too low to allow those other subjects...)
American culture has been promoting cowardice for generations now. Fear is the lowest common denominator for humans and it is not just exploited for politics - our modern marketing exploits it, our entertainment as well. The learned behaviors on how to respond to fear have been influenced as well. Americans are less happy and more stressed due to the impact of the commercial culture thrust upon them (which also has them praising it because it also raises us to love it.) IT IS A CULTURE OF FEAR - just spend some time here observing (not that these things are not being exporter abroad... they are. the UK does a bang up job of it.) The downside to having no shared cultural roots is that the population is easier to experiment on. As far as I'm concerned the only good thing about tradition is the temporary firewall it provides.
Propaganda is the source of the huge amount of working control over the masses today. America is home to some of the best of it, even Hitler got a lot of his research material from America. It was American propagandists post WW2 that renamed their new profession: Public Relations. Marketing and Advertizing being offshoots, applying the same techniques... and new ones. The military may weaponize all science but PR weaponizes all social science... and quickly makes it publicly available as a service to anybody with money.
American working poor live well enough; the middle class is happy enough during their decades of decline that it is not enough to get off their addictions long enough to do anything about it. The primary one being consumerism, the main tool behind it all: television.
Also, try arguing with an American in person. Observe the others around you as well. It is almost like you were in a fight, the unpleasantness to the viewers and the participants. See how disagreement is so contentious and how you will be judged and grudges formed simply by your disagreement. The people are WIMPS -- except in New York where everybody being rude has somewhat shielded them. Why learn the actual NEWS when it is so upsetting and depressing?? Turn on GOP TV and hear what "you" want to hear...(aka Fox News - BTW, the project name was GOP TV.) Personalization has led to wall gardens that /. people hate so much-- like the phones, it's more of an invisible fence that you don't mind being restricted to... even enjoying your confinement...
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If America is so broken, why is English the international language today?
There is this country called England where the language Eng-lish came from. Perhaps you've heard of it?
If they are so cowardly please explain why the only footprints on the moon were put there by Americans?
That was the old America and it was only done to beat the Russians who started the whole space race thing.
Interesting, indeed (Score:5, Funny)
This is interesting news, because I had heard, from a reliable source, that when Snowden inquired of his attorney where on earth he could best be assured freedom from prosecution under U.S. law, the lawyer had recommended Wall Street.
Re:A solution for prison overcrowding ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Little tip to Obama: this could be a solution for your prison overcrowding problems. Dump them on these third rate socialist shit holes. Just make sure you tag each criminal as enemy of the USA, and they will lap up anything you throw at them. Even if you pay for air fare you win. Try it.
The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime. Nice joke, though.
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The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime. Nice joke, though.
Including cannibalism, for example?
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Including cannibalism, for example?
Are you trying to tell us that you want to eat other consenting adults? Do not despair, you could always move to parts of Papua New Guinea. The rest of us have /not/ moved their, because we have no inclination to eat people, consenting or otherwise.
We don't have laws to crush the morbidly dark beast lying in every man. The fundies are working with a broken model of human nature. They once believed that banning alcohol would stop alcohol usage. Goes to show how ass-backwards they are, since drug addiction
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More than likely there is no need to move to "indulge" in cannibalism.
Victim of cannibal agreed to be eaten [guardian.co.uk]
I don't think that the Temperance movement believed that it would stop all alcohol consumption, but that it would significantly decrease it. And they were right. Not only that, once prohibition was lifted, per-capita alcohol consumption took about 40 years to reach its previous level. The decrease in alcohol consumption had a number of impacts on other public health issues.
Did Prohibition Really Wo [nih.gov]
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The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime.
There are certain words that seem to invite trouble, whether you are dealing with science or people. Among them are: impossible, always, never, and I'll include "anything" for the post. (I kind of wish I had never heard the news story on this ...)
The Castration Dungeon [trutv.com]
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> that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime
Why don't you start with something less detrimental to society than drugs, say polygamy?
Then tell me how it goes.
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Why don't you start with something less detrimental to society than drugs, say polygamy?
Now that would be an interesting study... in any case, not all drugs are created equal. And perhaps not all polygamy is created equal, but frankly that's even harder to have a discussion about than drugs. That makes sense, since there's a lot more drug users than practicing polygamists.
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> that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime
Why don't you start with something less detrimental to society than drugs, say polygamy?
Then tell me how it goes.
Most people simply don't want to practice polygamy. If they do, that's not my business and it's not my job to stop them.
Both myself and my significant other want a one-on-one, monogamous relationship. Let's say a home down the street has a polygamist family. Polygamy is the only usual thing they do; everything else is quite normal. All members of that home understand what polygamy is and have entered into the arrangement willingly. In what way are they harming you or me? On what grounds would you u
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Please watch this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v_uF-jr5pM [youtube.com]
If somebody wants to be like this. Fine with me. But without the medical support.
Oh. And who will pay for the repairs of the vehicles and buildings?
emigration used to be a viable safety valve (Score:5, Insightful)
You say that as if it were some sort of horrible solution or unprecedented. Historically, emigration has been a major safety valve, both for the unjustly accused and persecuted to save themselves, and for nations to rid themselves of people that didn't fit in. All European nations got through the last few hundred years that way.
Regardless of what you may think of Snowden, the fact that a non-violent, educated, and skilled guy has no place to go in the world really is a profound change in how the world works, and I don't think it's a good one.
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The kind of disruptive left-wing revolution you imagine, like conservative government as well, tends to increase corruption in government.
So, by definition, when the American finally get tired of the corruption in government, they'll start voting for people who stand for lower taxes and less government powers. It's already starting to happen at the state level.
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The thing about private sector corruption is that, absent government corruption, you can always choose not to associate yourself with it by not buying their products or stock.
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Won't happen. If they admit its wrong now then they admit Obama is bad. Instead you will hear everyone say, "it doesn't matter who is in charge it will be just as bad". The American people will not hold Obama or any of his people accountable for anything.
Holder - Fast and furious, lying to Congress 3 times about it - pass
Rice - Bengazi attack because of a film, lied to American public and UN - pass (with promotion)
IRS targeting citizens - FBI won't even begin an investigation - pass
Clapper - lied under o
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(Will get next DNC nomination)
Wanna bet on that? They had their chance to nominate her but went with Obama instead, and since then here reputation has fallen like a rock.
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It is telling that an (apparent) opponent of Snowden would hold up extrajudicial killing as an example of 'justice'.
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Re:Snowden is never leaving Russia (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't bet on it. If Russia decides it seriously wants to help, then they'll never even know he's left until he's in Venezuela. As of *right now*, nobody has seen Snowden since he got to Moscow. In fact, nobody has seen him in Moscow at all. Russia claims he's holed up in Sheremetyevo Airport, but nobody has seen him there. Nobody saw him get off the flight from Hong Kong. Is he still in Moscow? Was he ever in Moscow at all? I wouldn't take bets.
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Indeed no-one has seen him or has been able to contact him there, and journalists have tried hard, including by staying at that hotel and calling all other rooms (he probably just ignores these calls). However he's also not known to have left on another flight: no-one reported seeing him boarding another flight from Moscow.
His letters requesting asylum however were reported to be posted from the transit hotel at that airport, so it is quite likely he actually is there.
It won't take long before we'll know wh
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Two thoughts:
First of all, he made it to Russia when everyone thought he was still in Hong Kong. Obviously he is pretty canny and aware of the abilities of the US to track him. I think its entirely possible that he has already left the airport and is en route to somewhere else. In fact the whole episode with the Bolivian president's jet might simply have been a distraction engineered to cover Snowden leaving Moscow to go somewhere else.
Secondly, when I was in the USSR many many years ago we landed at Sherme
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I recall the news saying "Snowden is on a plane to Moscow". So that must have been during the flight already.
Then about the airport: news reports said that a transit passenger is not allowed to remain in the transit area, they must stay in the hotel. Also they are not allowed to leave their room until shortly before their connecting flight departs. So if Snowden is staying at the airport, and has not entered Russia, he must be in that hotel.
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Justice? In the US? I bet they will have him tried in a military secret court with someone like Roland Freisler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Freisler) as a judge.
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US fighters to intercept. Russia, Cuba and Venezuela are outside the US's reach, but the airspace between them isn't.
Not that simple. They have to play the shell game, but with Russia's cooperation, they can, and they may in fact be doing so.
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Even if it was a Learjet, blowing up the plane is an -overkill-. There will be other casualties, and Snowden does not represent an immediate menace to US citizens. It would be impossible to argue the legality of such an act, even in US courts of law. Acting like the bully does not always get what you want. Proof, look at what Obama got the Europeans to do (ridicule themselves), where Bush met strong and persistent resistance.
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For instance, the Convention on International Civil Aviation only allows forcing a plane to land when it enters state's territory.
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Would it? If they were willing to bounce Morales' personal aircraft around, why wouldn't they do this?
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If the Russians really want to deliver him safely to Venezuele they can take him there by a nuclear submarine that can stay below the surface the whole trip. I seriously doubt that even an nation as aggressive as the US will attack a Russian submarine in international waters. If they would even find out before he mysteriously shows up in Venezuela.
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The German president is a he not a she. Joachim Gauck [wikipedia.org]
Perhaps you are talking about the German chancellor, Angela Merkel [wikipedia.org]?
Their pasts differ somewhat with Ms. Merkel having started her career as FDJ secretary for Agitation and Propaganda, while Mr. Gauck was basically lying low until the East German government was down when he suddenly and retroactively turned into an ardent supporter of freedom.
An easy mistake to make though, as they are both spineless hypocrites profiting from other people's work.