After Rick Perry's Stem Cell Treatment, Misplaced Enthusiasm? 340
oxide7 writes "Presidential candidate Rick Perry underwent a controversial stem-cell treatment this past month, prompting some doctors to fear the high-profile event would send the wrong signal to desperate patients. 'As a highly influential person of power, Perry's actions have the unfortunate potential to push desperate patients into the clinics of quacks,' Dr. George Q. Daley said."
!surprise (Score:4, Insightful)
A candidate who has prayer rallies as part of his campaign is into quackery? Gee, who possibly could have seen this coming.
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A broken clock is right two times a day.
Sometimes quacks do get it right, but hoping that they'll accidentally get it right is not a good idea. In this case it's a matter of how much evidence do you need to take the risk and at what point is anything better than doing nothing.
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It was experimental. It appears that Perry was not promised any benefit, like a quack would do. How is an experimental operation a quack?
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Yes, Rick Perry is religiously extreme. If he went to Revered White's church, then he could at least claim to be a moderate.
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Yeah I mean. How many times can you listen to the ol'Rev scream about death to america, death to whites, and be a racist piece of shit?
Prayer Rallies Aren't Bad (Score:3)
Likewise, trusting someone who claims that injecting stem cells into you can help anything in any way is quite dangerous. At the current time, we know very little about how the damn things actually work. Thanks, largely, to people like Rick Perry. But what did those guys expect, that science would magically continue to progress after
He is not being a hypocrite (Score:5, Informative)
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Neither the article nor the summary accused him of being a hypocrite.
The complaint is that there's a lot of quackery surrounding stem cell treatments, and Perry's procedure could be seen as an endorsement of those quack treatments.
Now I don't know enough about Perry's specific treatment to know if his treatment is legit, or how much it might fuel the quacks, but there's no hypocrisy with the embryonic stem cell debate.
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And even the Bush ban on embryonic stem cells allowed research to continue with the existing strains. Just not creating new ones from new fetuses. Nobody was trying to suppress knowledge or cover over damage that had already been done. It was just an effort to avoid continuing to pay (out of public funds) for something a large percentage of the p
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Car analogy:
Someone dies in a car wreck. Should we just ignore that that happened and only rely on safe Crash Test Dummy data because it is data collected that didn't kill someone?
Before anyone points this out... (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, Rick Perry is against embryonic stem cell research. Yes, this treatment did NOT use embryonic stem cells.
Please do not say that Republicans or conservatives are against stem cell research. Conservatives are against the destruction of an embryo for the purposes of scientific research. Embryonic stem cell research is still government funded provided that it uses old stem cell lines or adult derived stem cells.
With that said, let's leave the straw-men in the field.
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Most embryonic stem cell research is done on mouse embryos, not human ones. Human embryonic stem cells are finicky about their environment and are generally a royal PITA to work with. There is very little benefit to working with human cells when you're researching basic mechanisms of pluripotency, since they are the same in the mouse cells. Frankly, the main reasons for pushing the switch to human cells are political, and even if you don't need them or want them, the boss may push it on you anyway because t
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Except for every conservative you've encountered in this thread. Now that your statement is no longer true, please don't repeat it anywhere.
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the fabled creatures of open minded, well educated conservatives.
Extinct in their natural habitat, having been driven out by the more aggressive Tea Party species*. A few are still on display in a zoo near you.
*Evolution at work.
Not embryonic (Score:2)
preface: Rick Perry's public statements have lead me to believe he is a very ill-informed or decietful person with regards to his political views. That is not what this post is about.
Before anyone jumps the gun and goes for the "hippocrite" line, the stem cells used were adult, not embryonic as his party as absurdly become opposed to for poorly informed reasons. Just worth noting.
Re:Not embryonic (Score:4, Insightful)
That's just focusing on the very tail end of the research process.
You still need to ask whether or not any of this could have happened at all without research he doesn't approve of over religious grounds that aren't even that well founded in doctrine to begin with. (thus the problem of embedding religious doctrine in public policy)
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The second point is that the treatment that he received is an experimental treatment, not quackery. It may become quackery in a few years if the doctors continue administering after the studies are run, if the
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Dr Bob? (Score:2)
"clinics of quacks" actually appeared in the summary, and yet NOTHING from "Dr" Bob yet?
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He beat you by 5 minutes.
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Aw dang, he got modded down so quickly I missed him!
For anyone thinking of voting (Score:2)
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... using the same tactic as bush
Like Bush Jr, he is looking to bail after driving his charge into the ground. Now that the federal dollars that propped up the Texas budget have dried up, things are really coming apart. To "balance" the current budget the rainy day fund was used, public workers fired and education gutted. As a result, unemployment is now on the rise (now 8.4% vs national 9.1%).
He's even using the same tactic as bush and trying to get in good with the religious circles to try and get votes.
He is worse than Bush Jr on this, with his connections to dominionists. Shrub focused on appearing religious to get elected, Perry's efforts seems
Topic for discussion (Score:2)
If God is the creator of life, and the one who decides when your time is up, then isn't tricking your cells into becoming stem cells again defying God's will (or playing God)?
No, I don't have an answer to that, it's just a question. Just wondering where people draw the line between medicine and "playing God", since "God's will/province" is a central concept in the fight against embryonic stem cell research and abortion.
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If its your time to go, its your time to go, there is nothing you can do to stop it.
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I think this is one of those logic questions that basically doesn't make sense. There are those who have come to this conclusion, so don't practice any medicine whatsoever.
Here's one way to answer it. You're drowning in the ocean. A boat comes by and tries to pick you up; you refuse, saying you're trusting God and that when He wants you to die, you'll die. A second boat; same thing. A third; same thing. You drown. You ask God, "Why didn't you save me?" He asks you, "Why did you pass up the three boa
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Religious types have a bunch of stock phrases they turn to whenever the inevitable contradiction pops up. In this case they'd use "God helps those who help themselves" or something similar.
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Pull out a hair from your head. See that white clump on the end that used to be attached to your head? There are stem cells in there.
You insensitive clod, I'm practically bald and you want me to pull out some of my remaining hair?
Stem cells are corporations! Oh the humanity! (Score:3)
Corporations are people.
Therefore, by transitivity, stem cells are corporations.
ALERT! (Score:2)
Better headline... (Score:2)
Re:God fearing men... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't use Stem Cells. Mr. Perry - please explain yourself.
Your Friends,
~The Tea Party
Sigh. Looks like my comment didn't make it in time to educate this ignorant AC. Here it is again:
Yes, Rick Perry is against embryonic stem cell research. Yes, this treatment did NOT use embryonic stem cells.
Please do not say that Republicans or conservatives are against stem cell research. Conservatives are against the destruction of an embryo for the purposes of scientific research. Embryonic stem cell research is still government funded provided that it uses old stem cell lines or adult derived stem cells.
With that said, let's leave the straw-men in the field.
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That's true. I made a similar post further down the page. However, republican opposition to embryonic stem cells is still absurd. It comes to the assumption or belief or whatever you want to call it that something without a brain is somehow human. It's just another tally in the table of republicans don't understand or believe science and the act on that
Re:God fearing men... (Score:4, Insightful)
As we all know, life begins at ejaculation.
That's why masturbation is wrong.
If you masturbate, you've committed lust in your heart and spilled an innocent life on the ground.
Re:God fearing men... (Score:5, Funny)
Science has proven there are hundreds of life seeds in a single batch of sperm. If you masturbate you didn't spill an innocent life, you committed genocide!!! :P
Re:God fearing men... (Score:5, Funny)
Men are genocidal monsters (even if there is a pregnancy there will never* be a 1:1 sperm to baby ratio) and women are serial killers.
*standard /. disclaimers for pedants who don't understand common usage
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I can't live with this guilt anymore.... I must end my life... I'll commit suicide by watching Fox News until my brain gets flooded with clots.
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If you masturbate you didn't spill an innocent life, you committed genocide!!! :P
Even if you had sex for the purposes of procreation and even if you succeeded... you still wasted "hundreds of life seeds"
Re:God fearing men... (Score:5, Funny)
Remember - Jesus died for our sins, if we don't sin his death will have been for nothing.
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spilled an innocent life on the ground.
Same as dropping a bowl of yogurt.
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It comes to the assumption or belief or whatever you want to call it that something without a brain is somehow human.
I see plenty of humans walking around (or posting on the internet) with no evidence that they have a brain.
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It comes to the assumption or belief or whatever you want to call it that something without a brain is somehow human.
I see plenty of humans walking around (or posting on the internet) with no evidence that they have a brain.
So, you see plenty of non-breathing people who cannot independently control their bodies ... in the process of controlling their bodies?
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Whatever you believe about a Fetus and it's value the reality is that Abortion is a medical procedure that is between the doctor and their patient. One of the greatest avenues to government intrusion into peoples personal lives is the propensity of both parties to regulate the medical establishment.
All the nut jobs that want to put restrictions on abortions absolutely fail to consider the situation when that abortion is not only warranted, but needed to save a life. The most volatile of those is the third t
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Indeed. According to the Retardicans, my aunt would have had to die right now (her first pregancy was aborted because my unborn cousin was severely deformed, missing half his brain and most of his skull, and likely to die and go septic in utero which would have resulted in her death along with him).
Without a "one or both" exception - e.g. to save the life of the mother - in place, the Retardicans will never get me to so much as admit they have some good-faith reason to get between a woman and her doctor reg
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If the law doesn't explicitly allow for cases where the mother's life is in danger, any abortion would still result in an arrest and a trial, whereupon a jury would decide whether or not they believe the doctor is telling the truth that the procedure was still medically necessary. Self-defense or not, that's still months of your life thrown into turmoil, massive legal bills, and an enormous emotional burden on someone who is already in a pretty precarious place.
Your attitude towards things would ruin lives
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It has nothing to do with a fetus. It is only about a persons right to get the medical treatment they desire.
Re:God fearing men... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:God fearing men... (Score:4, Informative)
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My personal problem with embryonic stem cells is we can not have any kind of profit in using the UnBorn. (not create a market for UnBorn corpses)
Now my views on Abortion come from being a Caucasian Male with a Conservative background and are as follows
1 It is the responsibility of the Father to A support his children B keep his [redacted} fly shut PERIOD
2 Abortion should be the result of a doctor having to choose between the mother and the child (as in both will die RIGHT NOW) not any kind of "convenience"
3
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Ok. How many children from orphanages in Africa have you adopted recently?
Or maybe you're selling all your disposable income to them? That would be not as good, but we can overlook it.
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well my personal problem is that i have exactly ZERO disposable income so i have not done so HOWEVER if i do ever have any i will of course donate to my local community first.
(and im working with a shelter making nonprofit as it happens)
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Your personal problem is fictional. These embryos come from in-vitro fertilization, they will be discarded if not used. Do you also appose fertility treatments?
Also #4 proves you to be a terrible person. Our justice system like all humans things is not 100% flawless. This means you are advocating not only crime in prison and murder, but the eventual murder of an innocent person.
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Actually, I'm surprisingly close to your mind here I would however tweak things just a wee bit... try to follow :-)
Since 80% to 90% of the zygotes created for invitro fertilization are simply disposed of, there is a wonderful source for embryonic stem cells that will never, ever become a human being under any circumstance. No moral dilemma here. Moreover, if you want to take the fear of profit out of the equation, make it voluntary (like an organ donor card) for the parents of the zygote to donate the cells
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Agreed, make a baby, support the critter, its not just a good idea, its the law... enforce the heck out of it. Moreover, make such a public stink about being a Dad who won't do his duty that the shear weight of being a pariah makes him do the right thing.
Unfortunately, then we get into cases like this [foxnews.com].
How many men are paying child support right now because they were falsely named on a birth certificate and not given a proper chance to demand a paternity test?
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1 It is the responsibility of the Father to A support his children B keep his [redacted} fly shut PERIOD
I think it has been repeatedly proven that a lot of potential father and mothers cannot be expected to act responsibly when it comes to procreation. To not acknowledge this fact would irresponsible in itself.
My problem with the "Conservative Mindset" is that they tend to be against all forms of birth control and instead preach abstinence as a way of preventing unwanted pregnancies. To actually believe that teenagers have full control while experiencing the peak of hormones that they have only a few years ex
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1 It is the responsibility of the Father to A support his children B keep his [redacted} fly shut PERIOD
And why is it not also the responsibility of the Mother to do the same?
Regardless, what you are saying is that no one should ever have sex unless prepared to have children. That is a bit extreme, especially when you later encourage adoption centers. I'm really not sure how it's more responsible to give a child up for adoption.
2 Abortion should be the result of a doctor having to choose between the mother and the child (as in both will die RIGHT NOW) not any kind of "convenience"
Your use of the word "child" already gives your opinion away. At what point does it stop being a zygote or an embryo and start being a person?
If you said "conception", you have a prett
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Generalism is a common human sin. But there is a large group of extremist conservative republicans that have zero science education that think all stem cell research is evil.
Note I say this as a Catholic that believes in Evolution and also feels annoyed every time atheists label every religious person in the planet as cavemen worshiping the flame. I know how it is to be in the wrong end of these generalizations.
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But there is a large group of extremist conservative republicans that have zero science education that think all stem cell research is evil.
Really, have you ever met any? I do not know of any.
It would not surprise me to learn that, because of the way the press reports on all stem cell research, there are a few who are unaware that there are any stem cells that are not derived from embryos (or, if they are aware are under the impression that our knowledge of them derives from embryonic stem cell research*). However, I doubt there are any that would be opposed to adult stem cell research once it was clearly explained to them.
*Considering how
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I think you're greatly underestimating the stubborn stupidity of the small handful of nutcases who constantly get attention from the media because of their controversial views.
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I actually do. Quite a few. And you would be shocked but the one I know the best is a preacher, who is also a computer programmer and huge scifi geek (but he has a grudge against anything magic related, like Lord of The Rings) that feels that way. It is indeed ignorance, but its an ignorance due to a religious barricade. Not only will he refuse to talk to you off the topic or allow you to tell him about the many forms of stem cell research, but he will go and preach about it at his church every time the top
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I don't think thats unusual. How many pro-wrestlers do you know? Or hollywood superstars? Or Patent lawyers? It all depends on what circles you walk, and sometimes is just pure random luck (or lack of it.) If it was not for this specific guy and connections associated with him, I would not know any one that opposed all forms of stem cell research either (outside of TV.)
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Really, have you ever met any? I do not know of any.
The idea that liberals are less apt to unreasonable faith than conservatives is an unreasonable faith that many liberals hold.
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Are you confirming that Conservatives, as a group, are now entirely made up of Fundamentalist Christians?
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Who they vote for seems to indicate that, or at least make it appear very likely.
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Conservatives are against the destruction of an embryo for the purposes of scientific research.
But apparently not against the embryos being destroyed in a furnace instead since that is what happens if they are not used in the research.
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If everything you know about stem cell research comes from the South Park episode where Cartmen makes a pizza joint out of aborted featuses, you should seek additional education.
-Rick
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That does not happen, who told you this bullshit?
These embryos are the waste from in-vitro fertilization. They will be discarded if not used.
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But that would be slow and inefficient, and possibly expensive.
And yet it could still be feasible with the right price point
It's not clear to me why people don't have a more nuanced view of religious objections to certain kinds of medical research. For example, most of the objection to stem cell research seems to be the concern that we were creating and then destroying life that could otherwise become living humans. In other words, the objection is more to embryonic stem cell research rather than general stem cell research.
Sure, you have the people who are oppose
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But yes, this treatment DID use Science, which is something that Governor Perry has long opposed.
I don't think that is an exhaustive list of the things which Conservatives are against. You might want to add,
1. Science
2. A Middle Class
3. Black Presidents
4. Immigration
5. Science
6. Climatology
7. Geolo
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That's a pretty good list!
Can I add a couple?
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Conservatives can't read, or don't pay attention. The embryos used for this type of thing are the waste product of in-vitro fertilization. Are these folks also against these kinds of fertility treatments?
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Conservatives are against the destruction of an embryo for the purposes of scientific research.
Worth pointing out that since these are leftovers from IVF, the alternative is simply the incinerator. Scientific research or trash. That's the choice here, life is not a possibility for these embryos. Embryonic stem cells do not come from abortions, nor can they ever: by the time one would realize they had an unwanted pregnancy, the embryo's cells have begun to differentiate and are not useful pluripotent cells anymore.
People do need to be reminded that stem cells =/= embryonic stem cells, but they
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Please do not say that Republicans or conservatives are against stem cell research. Conservatives are against the destruction of an embryo for the purposes of scientific research.
Lets accept for the sake of argument that destruction of an embryo is indeed capital-E Evil. In fact lets explicitly equate it to the Evil of slavery. They are still idiots and their crusade is still idiotic.
Fighting to end slavery makes sense. Tacitly accepting slavery itself while battling specifically to prohibit slaves from going to medical school is totally idiotic. Targeting the "best" of a bad situation while ignoring the "evil" itself is dumb.
99.99% of the embryos that are destroyed are thrown in th
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Embryonic stem cells do actually work - in fact, they are known to produce full blown human beings
"Got spinal damage? Try Embriostem! (Side effects may include vomiting, diarrhea, and budding of another human being within your spinal cord.) Ask your doctor if Embriostem is right for you!"
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I know that my 'bad back' would have to be pretty bloody bad to risk growing a nest of tumors around my spine.
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they don't work FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES they obviously work for the purpose of creating people
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That's a rather broad claim, don't you think? I have a feeling you're a Tea Partier, but I think you're lying through your sorry teeth about being a scientist.
Re:Dayum.... WTF (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, if you're going to be The Decider, your decisions will be under a lot of scrutiny. If you've fallen prey to false claims in the medical field, you're likely to be manipulated by political quacks too.
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I had no idea that stem cell treatments are false claims in the medical field.
I know there ARE those who claim false things about them, but wasn't "stem cell research" a huge issue in the last few years ... with most people, especially the medical field, fighting for more? especially embryonic?
Here's the actual procedure:
The Republican contender, who has access to the best medicine, chose to get stem cells removed from his fat from his back and then reinserted in attempts to fix a bad back.
And the criticism:
"As a highly influential person of power, Perry's actions have the unfortunate potential to push desperate patients into the clinics of quacks" who are selling unproven treatments "for everything from Alzheimer's to autism," Dr. George Q. Daley, of the Harvard Stem Cell Institute told the Associated Press.
There's no statement that it's a quack. It has not been "thoroughly vetted by researchers or approved by the FDA." ("thoroughly" seems like a key word there).
So, accordi
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Context matters a lot. Is the experimental treatment part of the process to get the treatment FDA approved? Or is it a couple of guys a strip mall with a syringe and a centrifuge?
I guarantee you it's a lot more like the latter than the former. The FDA would like to shut these guys down, but your own cells aren't legally considered a drug. The FDA is going to court to try to change that.
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I have no idea exactly how it was "experimental." It wasn't done by a random dude in a mall:
Perry underwent a spinal fusion procedure from Stanley C. Jones, MD, a Houston orthopaedic surgeon. But it wasn’t as routine as it sounds. During the operation, Jones gave Perry an infusion of adult stem cells in an effort to speed recovery.
(source [webmd.com]).
Exactly how sanctioned that is I suppose is debatable... companies in other countries Japan, China, South Korea) are mentioned.
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He is some random dude. Just because he has an MD doesn't make him a researcher. MDs "prescribe" treatments like homeopathy all the time. Not effective, not FDA approved, but the government can't do anything about it. That's exactly what's happening here.
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I am reminded of an old joke, "Most Tea Party Types will not change their mind on Thursday
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"Candidate's love of tuna + mac-n-cheese is extreme and wildly outside the mainstream..."
If the candidate has a political platform against tuna + mac-n-cheese, then yes.
(However, the embryonic vs non-embryonic is the difference at stake here)
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What's next? "Candidate's love of tuna + mac-n-cheese is extreme and wildly outside the mainstream..."
I seem to recall Bush the first getting in trouble for saying he didn't like broccoli. So... no, not next, that already happened over a decade ago.
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Then there are others whose main problem is their *central* nervous system. Had yours checked lately?
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Fifth post, Dr. B? Used to be that you were reliably #1. Looks like you're slowing down, perhaps you need to take a break from posting online to sort out your sublaxations to get back to your peak.