Pakistan Lets China View US Stealth Technology 297
Oswald McWeany writes "Tensions between the U.S. and Pakistan have moved up a notch in light of news that Pakistan allowed China to examine the downed stealth helicopter used in the operation to kill Osama bin Laden. Pakistan also provided Chinese intelligence with samples of the 'stealth skin.' 'Pakistan enjoys a close relationship with China, which is a major investor in telecommunications, ports and infrastructure in the country.'"
No surprise. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure this wasn't really a surprise to the US. That's why the seals spent valuable time doing their best to destroy the helicopter.
Re:No surprise. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure the SEALs destroyed the stuff that really matters. Stealth technology is not new. China has already started testing their own prototype of a stealth plane [wsj.com]. Will the Chinese learn something from what was left behind? Maybe. Maybe not.
I suspect that if this technology was so uber-secret, we would have saturated the place with enough ordinance to blow it into dust. So either it's not so terribly secret (the SEALs destroying what needed to be destroyed) or there was a plan to leave it behind specifically to mislead. Either way, I'd suggest this is a tempest in a teacup.
Re:No surprise. (Score:5, Interesting)
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The way I remember it, the Russians got the skin of the plane for analysis, though.
Part of the plane is in the museum just outside Belgrade, though.
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I hadn't heard about this, but was intrigued to know more, so I Googled it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade [wikipedia.org]
Particularly:
"five US JDAM bombs hit the People's Republic of China embassy in the Belgrade district of New Belgrade"
Five JDAMs? well they certainly didn't fuck around did they.
As you say, it seems quite clear what it was really about:
"Central Intelligence Agency director George Tenet testified before a congressional committee that the bombing was the only on
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A really interesting article on the subject:
http://newamericamedia.org/2011/01/how-chinas-stealth-aircraft-rose-from-ashes-of-balkan-war.php [newamericamedia.org]
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That's because the Chinese are smarter, and their steps forward are quicker, hence they skipped the "F117" step. Their children pay attention in school. Yours don't.
It's easy to skip a step when you're cheating off of other children's test answers.
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The result is the new Chinese stealth fighter that scared the Washington post some months ago.
It didn't scare anybody in the know and least of all the US Military. They were just posturing to win increases in the defense budget (Oh noes! China!) or at least forestall any cuts. The truth is that the Chinese armed forces are no match for the United States armed forces and that's not likely to change any time soon. Indeed, the Chinese, recognizing their lack of carrier based air power and poor anti-submarine capability, are attempting to compensate on the cheap with lots and lots of missile boats. This
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That's what happened when the Chinese embassy was 'accidentally' bombed during the conflict in the Balkans. A stealth aircraft had recently been shot down and the Chinese were known to have collected a ton of parts from the wreckage, and they were being held in the embassy awaiting extraction to China. Whoops, a whole ton of precision guided ordnance accidentally wiped it out.
That's not true. The bombardment of the Chinese embassy was really an accident and that no such stealth aircraft debris was stored in it. An attack on any foreign embassy is considered to be an attack on a foreign nation. What you said is an insult added to injury to millions of Chinese citizens and oversea Chinese people who were upset at the loss of three innocent lives.
As a reminder, there is no evidence that Chinese agents collected downed stealth aircraft debris in Balkans.
And there is no evidence that Chinese intelligence agents get photos or aircraft skin samples from Pakistan. It is just an allegation.
Your allegations are just allegations.
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Yes, they will learn what shape to fabricate a helicopter stealth rotor in in order to build their own stealth aircraft or to test their high-power radar. Unless, of course, they already have the plans, which is entirely possible because China seems to routinely steal US Stealth plans (I've heard this from nonclassified sources and don't know if it's true but suspect there's at least some truth to it). AFAIK, we have much better sigint but they have much better cyber offensive units. I'm not sure how hu
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So either it's not so terribly secret ...
I doubt that there's much in the way of real secrets that the US has that the chinese and every other country with a significant ethnic presence in the USA don't already know about. Having samples and knowing its capabilities (and what its weakness are) is one thing - needing to use it yourself and developing the ability to produce it is another.
After all, it's not as if the chinese feel threatened by american military might.
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I'm sure the SEALS *tried* to destroy the stuff that really matters. The crew of that EP3 that landed on Hainan island tried to do that too, and the NSA had to rewrite and operating system from scratch given how successful they were.
Either way though, once you use the technology, you know the risk is out there that it's going to be captured and or partially captured. No weapon system should be so valuable you cannot risk it being lost battle.
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The US probably does a good job limiting the loss of the latest stealth technology. The stealth UAVs flying around Pakistan do not have the latest stealth to minimize the risk of inadvertent technology transfers.
I'm sure that the stealth technology on the chopper was intentionally a generation old as well.
In any event, the largest innovations in aircraft stealth is not in materials science but rather minimizing the radar cross section of jet exhaust intakes and vents. Intakes can be modified with sharktooth
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Then again when you're harboring a felon in your basement "OMG how did he get there?" and your uncle is a cop and paying your rent, best not to sell one of the cop's guns accidentally left behind during the bust on ebay .
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For that matter, who is going to pay for said war on China? Chinese creditors? Someone else with money that would not learn from history? "Loan money to the US for a war on China? Sure, they've only declared war on one of the people who loaned them massive amounts of m
So China has samples of the stealth skin? (Score:2)
Re:So China has samples of the stealth skin? (Score:5, Insightful)
Years ago, we discussed this in my organic chemistry class during a lab exercise using GC-MS (gas chromatography - mass spectrometry). Just because you know what something is made of does not mean you can replicate the process that makes it. That is why things that matter a great deal of money to certain businesses such as the formula for coca-cola or the colonel's 11 special spices are still secure despite their wide-spread availability. Things may have changed, but it still seems like most of material science can be compared to one way functions so widely used in cryptography. It is relatively easier to make something by putting things together than it is to reverse the process in a meaningful way.
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You're thinking too offensively.
That's every American's God Given Right!
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Well done! It is just as useful for an adversary to study how a weapon fails or doesn't work as the whole point of defense is to induce failure in said weapon or render it useless. How successful were the SEAL teams were at destroying the critical tech in the chopper? If I'll be fighting against this weapon in the foreseeable future, I want to be able to render such destruction on the battlefield.
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I work for Lockheed. How did you get our secret stealth formula???
You might need to worry more about us now.
The guy at your gate sells it for $10.99 to use in roofing shingles.
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
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Tongue in cheek.
Red Herring? (Score:2, Insightful)
Is it possible that the US left that helicopter there in order to mislead interested parties on stealth countermeasures and development?
Might that helicopter be, in essence, a doomed spy?
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Is it possible that the US left that helicopter there in order to mislead interested parties on stealth countermeasures and development?
Might that helicopter be, in essence, a doomed spy?
Not really, no. This was a raid against Osama. They would have gone with the simplest and most effective plan. Get in. Kill Osama. Gather hardware. Get out before Pakistan shows up.
Besides, they would not have wanted to use stealth tech that didn't work, assuming they have tech that did. It would be a career-ender for whoever came up with the idea if Pakistan detected it.
No shit, sherlock? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure why anyone didn't see this coming.... I was actually surprised they didn't send some locals to clean up the chopper rests. Either that, or it's really not that advanced. Radar-reducing skins are known, and the shape didn't seem that out of the ordinary. Oh look, a cover over the tail rotor to reduce radar signature. The biggest deal would be the electronics. I can only hope they were reduced to dust.
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Important electronics would have been fused into oblivion long before they dropped the thermal charges in. At least, if everyone did their job they should be.
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The avionics and encryption devices were destroyed. Upon crashing, the pilots used a specially-provided hammer to smash the electronics, then the SEALs (who are experts with explosives, as their initial course is Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL training) blew up the avionics equipment, encryption boxes, the engine cases, probably while walking away casually from the chopper as explosions ensued.
What did the US expect? (Score:5, Interesting)
The "Fundamental" law of religion is that the more Fundmentalist one is the more literally religious one is.
Pakistan was founded as a Muslim state, and it is not a reasonable expectation for it to work against Islam in Afghanistan by supporting the heretical idea of secular government. The only reason Islamabad gave the US the time of day in the past was to obtain arms to use against its mortal enemy India which was buddies with the Soviets during the Cold War.
The Cold War is finished, and Islamabad has everything to gain from a Talibanistan protecting its flank so it can prepare for war with India.
As Uncle Sugar wises up under pressure, Islamabad must suck up to China.
India would be wise to make buddies with the US after the US-Pak relationship collapses. If it comes to war, US assets could help India take out Pak nukes which are a menace to civilization. China would have no interest in intervention since its own Muslims are a problem more easily dealt with if Pakistan becomes an ashtray.
India is already buddy buddy with US (Score:2)
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N Korea is only a threat to themselves really. Sure they could give someone a bloody nose, but they would be only sealing their own fate.
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The people of Seoul (the nose you speak of) might disagree.
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"Unlike the West, China's government has no problem with nationalizing a territory's entire religious structure and killing anyone who disagrees"
That, as history demonstrates, is only bad depending on whose superstition is being taken out. All superstitions being worse than mere Chinese capitalism, I approve of Beijings efforts to limit religious damage in China. Seen in the Chines context, religion was among the backward traditions which hobbled China and facilitated its onetime colonial prostration before
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Lenin? Is that you?
Seriously, it's been tried. And the cure was worse than the disease....
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China today is not the China of the 50s and 60s. They are quite willing to let people be religious so long as in being religious they don't agitate/militate against the
Somewhat expected? (Score:2, Flamebait)
I mean, the US did come in on a raid and killed a resident of a sovereign nation. I'm not sure how much Pakistan knew ahead of time; between information leaks in the Pakistan chain of command, and the need for plausible deniability to a populace that doesn't love the US, we will never know.
And didn't they buy the F117 Nighthawk wings that the Yugoslavs shot down? Again, this new sale is possibly disturbing, but not surprising.
Which is why (Score:3, Interesting)
To be honest, part of the issues belong to us. W/neo-cons gave India access to 'civil' nuke tech, but not to pakistan. Once we opened that up, we basically told pakistan that we did not trust them. Of course, that was true. We don't. And we are helping what they consider their mortal enemy (even though it is also their 'brother').
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We will never really trust Pakistan--not until the women of Pakistan are treated as equals, the military hasn't taken over the government in recent history, and a Jew can walk around the place without facing discrimination. The biggest thing it has going for it is a fairly reputable judiciary and an active bar that cares about things like military takeovers of the government. In time, that may lead to more open-mindedness and reform. But it may take another century.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/human-rights-first/mukhtar-mai-pakistani-wom_b_219553.html [huffingtonpost.com]
You have to be kidding. (Score:2)
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Re:Which is why (Score:4, Interesting)
Honestly this right/left-wing nonsense has got to stop or there will be a fucking civil war.
It's worth noting that this sort of happened just before the Second World War. For example, France had a huge schism between its left and right. End result was that they were a incompetent mess when the Germans invaded and eventually the right sided with the Germans to form Vichy France. I gather that's part of the reason conservative and business ideas are so reviled in many parts of Europe because some many of them sided with the occupying Nazis.
Another example is the Allende government in Chile. Deliberate destruction of the Chilean economy (along the lines of a Communist playbook) which lead to the military coup setting up Pinochet for several decades.
I know that was meant to be something of a throw away comment, but there's a lot of truth in the idea that extreme division destroys a democracy. Everyone has a responsibility to work with their country-mates even when the other person is deeply in error/self-serving/etc.
This can only mean one thing... (Score:5, Funny)
Yay! Cheap knock-off stealth choppers for everyone!!
that fail part at high speed or stop lightning str (Score:2)
that fail part at high speed or stop working after lightning strikes .
Re:that fail part at high speed or stop lightning (Score:4, Insightful)
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Stealth is only temporary, so todays "stealth" is tomorrows easy target.
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Actually, not at all surprisingly, Chinese model kit maker Dragon released their vision(1) of the 'stealth helicopter' not too long after the pictures surfaced and others made mock-up images(2);
1) http://www.scale-rotors.com/news-reviews/dragon/stealth-black-hawk-operation-geronimo-4628 [scale-rotors.com]
2) http://cencio4.wordpress.com/category/stealth-black-hawk/ [wordpress.com]
Though I'm not sure a 1:144 scale model counts as a knock-off per se :)
Caveats (Score:5, Insightful)
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China's more effective approach (Score:3)
China's huge dollar position is both it's strength as it's weakness, as value deteriorates. China is trying to put their money in foreign investment and soft diplomacy to gain influence in Africa, weak economies of some European countries (for example Greece) and now also Pakistan, openly, without any worries knowing it is crossing US interest. Outsourcing productivity is followed by knowledge, science and technology, in contrast with popular belief that such follow up doesn't occur. It's starts with shameless copying is the prerequisite of understanding and improvement, this is the present case for China much as it was for Japan in the past. With the only difference that it is maybe even more easy for Chinese companies, as the state is shareholder. The Chinese does business with everyone, not asking too many questions or human right issues. For those who not know, China has been most of her existence been the world power state. They have a great history in diplomatic cases.
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That doesn't seem like the correct assessment, your post has too many stereotypes trying to qualify themselves as facts, though I do agree somewhat with the ending that China historically tends to tread lightly outside of her backyard (inside is another story). US and China both rely heavily on soft diplomacy, so the soft/hard dichotomy has no bearing here. It seems the outcome we see here is more due to the fact that Pakistan shares more common goals with China than with the US -- primarily among them, the
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Chinese diplomacy in Africa, OTOH, is advantageous to consumers worldwide.
Western governments must stay away for obvious ("Blackhawk Down") reasons, so I argue we are better off letting other countries play in that particular sandbox.
Let the Chinese have at it. They are tough and smart enough to cut deals to extract resources the civilized world must have from Africa and aren't hobbled by trying to apply alien ethical constructs to tribal groups who don't care for the preaching of foreigners.
The US doesn't
US Should Switch Support (Score:2)
to India. Let Pakistan chew on that prospect, if they think it's cool to harbor our arch enemies and give our secrets away to arch-enemies in the making.
And before some Poindexter points out, "but but but most of the supplies for our forces in Afghanistan pass through Pakistan!" I'll say it's high time to pull our forces out of that godforsaken place. We got bin Laden. The Taliban are reduced to one among many warlord factions. The status quo ante has been achieved. Miller time.
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Strongly agree. India is civilized compared to Pakistan, which has no hope for the future and will only become more Jihadist.
India is large enough to survive a nuclear exchange and still have enough troops and resources to finish Pakistan off completely.
Pakistan is the next North Korea. Contain it while being prepared to destroy it if that becomes necessary.
Chinese whispers (Score:3)
The NYT and BBC prefaced their stories with the qualifiers "probably" and "may have", while these disappeared from the Slashdot summary. The reports may well turn out to be true, but the summary is assigning a level of certainty about the claims that does not yet exist.
Acceptance of this sort of distortion seems to have become so routine in Slashdot's selection of story submissions, it sometimes feels a bit like reading the Daily Mail.
but, but, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
The Corporate states of America ran Russia out of money, now they're doing the same to US.
Long live the banksters! May they fly like the American flag, hanging from a pole.
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Re:Oh boo hoo (Score:5, Insightful)
Boo hoo, indeed.
There is no need for the US to keep financing the Pakistani military. The upper echelons of their military is living high on the hog, based on the US aid, and and as result has no incentive to end the war. The upper echelons are not suffering any pain, it's the lower echelons and the normal people that are paying the price. And since they know what the upper echelons are doing, they hate them (and the US) for that. Nukes or no nukes, there is no reason for the US to keep the river of money flowing, certainly not in these times. Leave Pakistan to its own devices. Their military knows what the Mossad, the Indians and their proxies will do them and their families if they let things get out of hand.
Re:Oh boo hoo (Score:4, Interesting)
The US funds the Pakistani military for their OWN benefit, not for Pakistan's. It's leverage, same as China.
US already knew China had huge investment in Pakistan so they have no one to blame but themselves. They know Pakistan is of higher strategic importance than China knowing how a stealth chopper was built.
Re:Oh boo hoo (Score:4, Interesting)
Did US and Pakistan have some kind of deal where they are not allowed to improve their technology with their friends if US happens to dump their trash all over the country? US would do exactly the same with UK or their other girlfriends.
Well, Pakistan does have an "accept several hundred billion dollars a year from the US" deal. If China's making them a better offer, then Pakistan's actions make sense.
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Did US and Pakistan have some kind of deal where they are not allowed to improve their technology with their friends if US happens to dump their trash all over the country? US would do exactly the same with UK or their other girlfriends.
Well, Pakistan does have an "accept several hundred billion dollars a year from the US" deal. If China's making them a better offer, then Pakistan's actions make sense.
You are assuming short-term monetary gain is the most important factor in the deal.
At the time, it was an expected reaction.
The rational thing to do for monetary gain would have been to offer the stealth tail to the highest bidder, with a higher premium required if someone wants no photographs.
But Pakistan was really pissed at the US. Think how we would feel if the Mexican or Canadian army send a special forces team into West Point or Fort Worth to arrest a drug kingpin without our consent. Now multiply i
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Your assumptions are all wrong.
First off, if Mexico or Canada knew a Drug kingpin was hiding in the US, and told the US, the US would have apprehended the guy/gal. This is NOT the case in Pakistan, where people in the government were and ARE actively helping Taliban and most likely even Bin Ladin.
This is more like the US under Obama and Holder supplying guns to Mexican Drug Lords, and not letting Mexico know we are doing it. Mexico should be pissed, but we're bigger and more organized so they just send patr
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We don't know it's not the case in Pakistan, because we didn't try it. If it makes you feel better, pretend the Drug Kingpin was bribing the feds to tip him off.
Re:Oh boo hoo (Score:5, Informative)
Well, Pakistan does have an "accept several hundred billion dollars a year from the US" deal. If China's making them a better offer, then Pakistan's actions make sense.
You put that in quotations as if it was a quoted fact... but several hundred billion dollars a year? The US yearly defense budget is a bit over $600B, Pakistan doesn't get half of that. The real number is $1-2B. Still a lot, but off by a couple orders of magnitude there ;)
Though to your point, the US just withheld $800M of that yearly aid last month after the latest concerns about Pakistan's military allegiances. Looks like that might backfire if they just get money from China instead.
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Though to your point, the US just withheld $800M of that yearly aid last month after the latest concerns about Pakistan's military allegiances. Looks like that might backfire if they just get money from China instead.
I don't know about that. We keep the $800 million and STILL get the level of service we've come to expect from our Pakistani allies in the war on terror.
Re:Oh boo hoo (Score:5, Informative)
Because they are a nuclear power with a large fundamentalist population ruled by a military oligarchy. So the US gives that oligarchy shitloads of money to both bribe them for support and try to keep them in power to prevent another Iran.
Of course, the US gave lots of money and weapons to the Iranian government before the revolution there, and in the end all that did was make the new regime both heavily armed and even more pissed off...
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Re:Oh boo hoo (Score:5, Insightful)
And the deal going the other way was to A) not harbor a wanted criminal, and B) assist in finding said criminal. They failed on both counts.
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The copter was not a prop. So I stopped reading the rest of your drivel right there.
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The story has a compound built for bin Laden.
You assume that there is a benefit or obligation of intelligence agencies and "secret operations teams" in supplying you with facts.
You are like a peasant, regarding the mediaeval church.
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The "copter" was such a setup. Look at the photos. A prop.
What am I looking for? A stamp that says "Movie prop helicopter: DO NOT USE ON A REAL HELICOPTER!"
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"No.
The US is the worst evil-empire. 20 years from now, we will wish the Soviets had survived, to keep their horror in check."
Judging by the fact that when the Soviets where going full steam they had to build a giant wall to keep people IN I would question your version of reality. I have yet to see people digging tunnels to get out of the US... Tunnels going in sure thing.
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I know you won't believe me because they've already gotten it in your head that aluminum always has been and always will be the way to go. Now they've got you spreading even more o
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For example, why are there no photos of the body released? And why was the body dumped at sea? Also, why didn't the "best of the best" simply subdue him since all accounts say his was unarmed and put him on trial like Saddam was put on trial. Certainly that would be in the best interests of Afghanistan, being able to put him on trial.
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Look. If he WERE there, and were the head and master strategist for a world-wide terror conspiracy, capable of striking the United States?
He would be an incredible intelligence asset.
Anyone in uniform who shot him, should be up for court-martial!
Instead, you'd draw a surveillance noose around him - and get his confidence up. You'd keep him in the dark for years, while intercepting every communication.
A child could figure that out. But the dumbest shits on earth - the US Public - believe fairy-stories abo
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Just to tamp down the tin foil hat on your head a bit more firmly:
"why are there no photos of the body released?" Errrr...because it would have incensed Muslims even more now that the U.S. whacked their secret hero?
"And why was the body dumped at sea?" So as not to create a memorial for a martyr. On the other hand, with the right CIA front company, the U.S. could have cleaned up on the Muslim equivalent of votive lights, and statuettes...with that timeless Muslim fanatical Index Finger Raised seen in every
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Errrr...because it would have incensed Muslims even more now that the U.S. whacked their secret hero?
So as not to create a memorial for a martyr. On the other hand, with the right CIA front company, the U.S. could have cleaned up on the Muslim equivalent of votive lights, and statuettes...with that timeless Muslim fanatical Index Finger Raised seen in every photo-op of a would be Muslim terrorist wannabe Big Banana.
And let Dershowitz or some other slimeball lawyer realize the Deal of the Century and turn the trial into O.J. Simpson's trial but with nuclear powered steroids? Yep, Dershowitz is Jewish...and it wouldn't have prevented Osama from realizing how to use the dumbass for his own ends.
Right. Because we all know that happ
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Why would trying Usama bin Laden be "in the best interests of Afghanistan"?
He was not an Afghani citizen. He held no public office in that country. He spent time in that country but no one has accused him of committing any crimes against Afghanistan.
Trying bin Laden may have been in the best interests of the United States but no one I know in Afghanistan wanted him tried there or any where else.
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Oceania has always been at war with East Asia.
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say what?
I don't recall Australia or New Zealand always being at war with East Asia...
I don't think Oceania means what you think it means.
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Re:300 million dollar helicopter (Score:5, Informative)
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Keep in mind that the actual cost per unit will also be significantly higher than the projected cost per unit--this is a truism in military hardware that stems from the fact that they cancel most programs far before the projected unit count is reached to amortize the R&D costs the way that the projections are given to Congress.
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Not stupid at all. This is economies of scale. There's no assembly line churning out stealth helicopters with customers down the line buying them up by the thousands, so what do you expect these to be other than expensive? Most of the parts are probably machined and assembled by hand by a team of engineers/mechanics with secret clearance -- they're not Foxconn workers getting $2/day.
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Aircraft are like computer processors. It's the design and fab equipment that costs, then economies of scale (can) happen.
The F-4 Phantom was a very complex aircraft, but thousands were built so sprinkling several hundred (yes, really) of them all over Viet Nam/Laos/Cambodia was no big deal.
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We already had an agreement in place with them that covered the mission in question.
Nice try though. Please play again.
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Except that the whole war was about folks harboring uncle Osama and refusing to hand him over. Which makes any claim for Pakistan to be "allies" pretty dubious.
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