How We Used To Vote 517
Mr. Slippery writes "Think hanging chads, illegal purges of the voter rolls, and insecure voting machines are bad? The New Yorker looks back at how we used to vote back in the good old days: 'A man carrying a musket rushed at him. Another threw a brick, knocking him off his feet. George Kyle picked himself up and ran. He never did cast his vote. Nor did his brother, who died of his wounds. The Democratic candidate for Congress, William Harrison, lost to the American Party's Henry Winter Davis. Three months later, when the House of Representatives convened hearings into the election, whose result Harrison contested, Davis's victory was upheld on the ground that any "man of ordinary courage" could have made his way to the polls.' Now I feel like a wuss for complaining about the lack of a voter-verified paper trail." The article notes the American penchant for trying to fix voting problems with technology — starting just after the Revolution. This country didn't use secret ballots, an idea imported from Australia, until quite late in the 19th century.
Voting the Open-Source Way (Score:2, Funny)
Vote early and often! :)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Voting the Open-Source Way (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing, as long as the state pays for the ID, and provides transportation to get the ID. Otherwise "Voter ID" essentially becomes "Poll Tax" and you have people with little or no income unable to vote because they can't afford an ID or the local DMV is two cities over.
Re:Voting the Open-Source Way (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok..so, put the free ID places near where the polls are. If they can make it to the poll to vote, they can make it there to get an ID.
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We do have a handle on voter fraud. It is so rare as to be practically non-existent. Between 2002 and 2005, the Department of Justice convicted just two dozen people for voter fraud. Eight a year. Not exactly a pressing problem.
I know it's difficult for many middle-class suburban Americans to grasp this, but millions of people - mostly poor - don't have identification cards. They don't drive, the
Re:Voting the Open-Source Way (Score:4, Informative)
In Indiana (where the voter ID started and ended up with SCOTUS), we have free ID's and transportation if you need it.
There are really no excuses and no reason to not have to prove who you are.
Re:Voting the Open-Source Way (Score:4, Insightful)
Interesting about the transportation, I'd like to see more information about that. Have a link?
The ID itself might be free, but one has to provide copies of various documents to get it. Obtaining these documents can be difficult and expensive. When a mother of seven has to choose between paying bills or spending $50 to get a copy of her out-of-state birth certificate in order to get a "free" voter ID card [alternet.org], there's a problem.
Not everybody even has a birth certificate, you know. I had a housemate who didn't; as I recall, she had to go back to her home state and obtain some affidavits attesting to her existence before she could get a driver's license.
There are really no excuses for throwing obstacles in the way of people's exercise of the franchise, when the claimed problem of "voter fraud" is non-existent.
ID (Score:3, Insightful)
Since many years ago now you have to show ID to become legally employed in the US. If someone hasn't shown it, the employer just fudged something. If they are working a job and didn't show any ID, they are working illegally and off the books most likely and not paying taxes. In other words, shouldn't be eligible to vote. All states provide non driver's licenses picture ID for free or very cheap, if someone can't be arsed enough to go get it, who cares? It isn't *that* hard. If you can't do the bare minimum
I voted in this manner... (Score:2, Troll)
Re:I voted in this manner... (Score:5, Interesting)
This doesn't make any sense. No one thought to call the state police, FBI or the media?
More importantly, these statements don't add up:
There were no republicans running in our little township
They also explained how important it was to vote democrat
If no republicans are running, then why go to all the effort?
Something smells in your story.
Re:I voted in this manner... (Score:5, Informative)
Granted this was only way back in 2000, but I lived in St. Clair County, IL. It was a small township called French Village
According to wikipedia, there is no French Village township in St. Clair County [wikipedia.org]. However, google maps finds a park called French Village in East St. Louis in St. Clair County in Caseyville township.
At 8am, the mayor knocked on my door and informed my wife and I it was time to vote
The mayor in Caseyville at that time seem to have been George Chance. So that is the guy that came knocking on your door 8am 2000-11-07 dragging you out to vote? Didn't you have to work or something?
We marched down to the fire station with him and twenty other poor people
Also fishy. The townships population is 4300, why did he choose you and 20 other people? Also, must have been quite a walk. There's not that many fire departments in Caseyville...
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Either you made the story up or you let 20 other people vote for you. Which one makes you look better?
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Wow, way to fly off the handle at polite scepticism. It's not as if the poster said "You're full of shit". The poster merely pointed out that parts of your story seemed funny to them and politely asked you to explain them.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I had to register as a Democrat so that I could vote in the primaries because if I waited till the general election to get involved I'd already have all of my choices made for me.
no excuses (Score:5, Interesting)
Think hanging chads, illegal purges of the voter rolls, and insecure voting machines are bad?
Yes.
Looks Like The "Good Old Days" (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Looks Like The "Good Old Days" (Score:5, Informative)
Card Check Process: Section 2 of EFCA would establish a mandatory card-check recognition process under which an employer would be required to recognize a union as its employees' exclusive bargaining representative once the union presents signed authorization cards from a simple majority of the employees in the work unit the union seeks to represent. The card-check process would take the place of NLRB-supervised secret ballot elections currently used to determine whether a majority of employees want union representation.
Perhaps you'd be willing to provide a citation? And while you're at it, who gets to elect whether a secret ballot or open card signature will be the process used?
Voter registration (Score:5, Insightful)
Some American please explain me: why do you have voter registration at all? In my country (Netherlands), everyone above 18 is registered by default. I assume this is similar in most of Western Europe. The only caveat is that you have to be registered with your municipality, which you have to do anyhow for various different reasons (municipal tax, getting passports/ID/driving licence ...). A few weeks before an election, you simply get your 'voting ticket' in the mail. You typically take this to a neighborhood school to cast your vote, usually electronically.
Making everyone eligible to vote by default would save a lot of those voter-fraud claims and a lot of effort by the campaigns to get the people registered.
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Informative)
It's pretty much the same in Canada. After I turned eighteen I just got voting cards in the mail for Federal, Provincial, and Municipal elections. Where I vote isn't electronic, I'm not sure if there are any plans to move that way.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
It's pretty much the same in Canada. After I turned eighteen I just got voting cards in the mail for Federal, Provincial, and Municipal elections.
You must register to vote in Canada. But, many years ago, they made it very easy: there is a tick-off box on your federal income tax form to register to vote. The federal elections agency also shares information with provincial elections agencies, who get updates from medicare cards & driver's licenses changes.
More importantly, since being a convicted murderer
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As a fellow Canadian, I hope things don't move that way. Our 'mark the X' pencil-and-paper system seems to work just fine, even with recounts. I never understood the urge to have electronic voting, all it says to me is a chance to eliminate paper trails and to change the records without any evidence.
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Because the kinds of people making these decisions are usually technology-illiterate to the point where they still probably say, "Computers are the wave of the future!"
Well, you're probably right with that. But I've been noticing that lately, when the media has articles about "electronic voting", they now usually include a comment about the widespread objection to the idea by "computer experts", whatever they think that means.
The summary seems to be that there are two different objections to computerized v
Re:Voter registration (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Informative)
Some American please explain me: why do you have voter registration at all? In my country (Netherlands), everyone above 18 is registered by default. I assume this is similar in most of Western Europe. The only caveat is that you have to be registered with your municipality, which you have to do anyhow for various different reasons (municipal tax, getting passports/ID/driving licence ...). A few weeks before an election, you simply get your 'voting ticket' in the mail. You typically take this to a neighborhood school to cast your vote, usually electronically.
Making everyone eligible to vote by default would save a lot of those voter-fraud claims and a lot of effort by the campaigns to get the people registered.
Bottom line - we have to register to vote because only U.S. citizens (without a felony criminal conviction) are allowed to vote. It's a different mind-set in America. People would rebel if they had to "register with their municipality" for no compelling reason, even after several years of Homeland Security.
Registering to vote is a snap, though. When my daughter turned 18, she went to the local county auditor's website and filled in a form that basicaly just asked for her name and street address. A few days later she got her voter registration card.
So the difference between us and you appears to mainly be when we register - you DO have to register, but you do it much earlier and for a broader purpose.
Not exactly true (Score:5, Informative)
The states actually determine who is a eligible voter. Some states deny voting privs to convicted felons, some can vote reguardless even in prison and others can vote if there imposed sentence has been served. Personally I think once a mans
sentence has been served he should be eligible to vote else it imposes (taxation without representation) on the individual.
A great many states have poll day registration you walk in with a utility bill, drivers license or something of that sort and
you can register to vote right then and there.
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Personally I don't think it makes sense to deny anyone their voting rights for any reasons.
Honestly, I don't feel it's fair to make anyone subject to the decisions of a legal system based on the voting system, if they can't affect that process.
It does make sense to not allow infants to vote (because the parents would likely misuse that) but with that exception anyone who can be punished under a countries laws should have a right to vote.
Re:Not exactly true (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not exactly true (Score:5, Insightful)
Allowing felons to vote seems like a safe guard against corruption to me. It seems like it wouldn't be too hard to make a law to turn a group of people who you didn't want to vote into felons so they couldn't.
Sounds like the War on Drugs to me.
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Re:Not exactly true (Score:5, Informative)
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Honestly, I don't feel it's fair to make anyone subject to the decisions of a legal system based on the voting system, if they can't affect that process.
Felons are disproportionately impoverished. It's the same reason there used to be a poll tax, although by very different means.
Re:Not exactly true (Score:5, Insightful)
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Or maybe you are under some strange impression the system works using popular vote...?
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Interesting)
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but it would be an enormous hassle for little gain (because the voter registration process is already easy).
It's so easy, even a dead person could do it!
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People would rebel if they had to "register with their municipality" for no compelling reason, even after several years of Homeland Security.
So in the US one can just "arrive" somewhere, move in a random house and everything is ok for the Government? They don't need to know where to send your tax letter or anything? Strange.
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From my experience, as an adult having lived in South Dakota, Oregon and Colorado, its fine to just move around the country.
It is your responsibility to have your mail forwarded to your new address, the Government doesn't know where you are unless you tell them and for general things (mail/taxes/bills) there is no checking up on if your address is accurate.
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Insightful)
So in the US one can just "arrive" somewhere, move in a random house and everything is ok for the Government? They don't need to know where to send your tax letter or anything? Strange.
Strange? Really? I'd think this is how it should be. For as much as we whine about how the U.S. is turning into a totalitarian state we really do have an incredible amount of freedom. You're still free to come and go and live and work where you please. You're not even legally obligated to get government ID, though it certainly makes life more difficult. But if you don't drive you could easily get by with just a passport, no state ID needed. As with everything the more you want-- driving rights, property ownership, etc-- the more you have to go "on the grid."
As far as a "tax letter", It's your responsibility to file your taxes, the IRS doesn't send you notices (though of course your employer is telling them what you were paid, so it's not that difficult to track you down.)
I'm not saying the U.S. is perfect, but you're not making a case for Europe being much better.
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Insightful)
The reverse sounds strange to me - you can't move around without letting the government know? Sounds nasty to me. I've moved a dozen times or more without bothering to notify anyone but my family. And would find it strange to have to notify anyone.
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Informative)
I feel it's largely due to the nature that all Americans are subject to two major governments at all times - state and federal. Our system is set up so that states control voting on election day, and like most other issues (education, driving, licensing) there is little communication between the states. So if you move from one state to another, you need to tell you new state that you're there and you want to vote.
Voter registration really is more about your state knowing where you are so you can vote for the right people. Certainly, if the federal government handled it, it would be automatic, but we just don't have the federal government in charge of elections (which is fine, we are, at least in theory, more about a collection of states rather than citizens of one large federal government).
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Some American please explain me: why do you have voter registration at all?
The U.S. does not have any (official) national citizen database (despite attempts to change that), and the various U.S. states do not have them either. As a result, to be able to vote, voter registration is required.
When registering, a citizen typically has to prove their eligibility to vote (which varies by state law), the most popular method being proof of citizenship and the location of your residence.
Of course, don't take my word for it. There's a more thorough discussion of the issue and how it is im
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The U.S. does not have any (official) national citizen database (despite attempts to change that), and the various U.S. states do not have them either. As a result, to be able to vote, voter registration is required.
Two words. Selective Service.
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Except only males have to register for the draft.
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Insightful)
(not saying they shouldn't, just that they seem to be very selective)
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That could easily be fixed in the name of "equality". As is, it is a good start -- to a bad end.
Re:Voter registration (Score:4, Interesting)
The U.S. does not have any (official) national citizen database (despite attempts to change that), and the various U.S. states do not have them either. As a result, to be able to vote, voter registration is required.
Two words. Selective Service.
Unless you are a woman, then you don't have to register for selective service. So, the government only has half of the population over 18 in that database.
Even that statement is a bit weak. Women are forbidden from registering with the SS (even if they want to for whatever odd reason). Yes, they can fill out the form but unless they lie about their gender, the SSA simply discards their registration.
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Who is in charge of these other registrations and their standards for proving things like where you actually live differ a lot.
You mention you have to be registered with your municipality. In my municipality in the US, you do not. You don't have to have any other ID either, though I happen to have a passport and driver's license. Frequently when filling out forms for things like driver's licenses that have a higher standard of proof than a voter registration, you can at the same time register to vote with m
Oh, its us evil Republicans! (Score:2, Funny)
Republicans in the USA tend to believe that not everyone should be allowed to vote. Specifically, we would ultimately prefer that only people who own property should be allowed to vote in order to prevent the socialist idea of masses voting themselves wealth transfers from upper classes. Therefor, voter registration would be a separate process as it was a different set of people.
However, we lost this debate utterly to the Democrats, and so, more or less, have this idea that everyone should be allowed to vo
Re:Oh, its us evil Republicans! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Oh, its us evil Republicans! (Score:5, Informative)
Fun facts:
Republicans supported black suffrage (being targeted by the KKK after the 15th amendment, and had greater support, as a percentage, for the Voting Rights Act of 1965 than democrats)
Republicans fought womans suffrage.
If women could not vote, no democrat would have served as president of the United States in the previous 50 years.
This was a completely different Republican party doing those things then today. If you know your American history then you know that at a few points in our history the major party's ideologies have changed in drastic ways. The Republican party you're referring to has quite a few similarities to our modern Democrats.
The modern Republican party, to which you seem to be trying to bolster the image of with these claims, really only took shape after Southern Democrats (of which the majority of them were given that they wanted nothing to do with those darn Republicans freeing the slaves and giving them the right to vote) left the Democratic party in droves because of their support for the civil rights movement. They merged with Northern economic conservatives and bam, you have the modern Republican party.
Kind of a shady history for the current manifestation of the party if you ask me.
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Lots of people over 18 do not possess the cognitive capabilities needed to understand politics. Lots of people aged 17 do. If cognitive capability is your marker then that's what you should require, not how many times the Earth has gone round the Sun since you popped out of a vagina.
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No, I'm claiming that age discrimination is essentially the same as all these other kinds. If you want to predicate the vote on cognitive ability then you ought to test for that. Otherwise you end up with intelligent 17-year-olds being denied the vote (try to tell me that is not the moral and logical equivalent of disenfranchising women!) and idiotic 18-year-olds voting for the guy with the better hair.
Re:Voter registration (Score:5, Informative)
Long story short? Because we let people vote who aren't registered for anything else. There are a lot of details, some of which I discuss below, but it all boils down to that: we let people vote who aren't registered for anything else.
> In my country (Netherlands), everyone above 18 is registered by default.
I don't know how it is in the Netherlands, but that system would be impractical here because the people here are free to move around (and often do, across voting district lines, state lines, you name it, without a second thought) without informing anyone. There's no central registry of all citizens in the first place, and there's *certainly* no central registry of where everyone lives. Other than the voter registration, there isn't any other registry that could be used for determining where people can vote and whether they've already voted (possibly in a different polling location) and so forth. The thing most people immediately think of to use instead is the Bureau of Motor Vehicles database of licensed drivers, but that would exclude substantial categories of people on unconstitutional grounds.
Note that it does matter very much which voting district people vote in, not just for determining whether someone has already voted in another polling location, but also because you vote on different stuff. For example, school taxes are voted on by the residents of each school district (and while I suspect you don't here anything much about it overseas because of the inherently local nature of it, people at the local level are often more concerned with the outcome of these local elections than with the state and national ones). US Representatives represent not just the people of a specific state but more particularly the people of a specific congressional district within a state, so for voting purposes it matters which district you're in. And so forth.
Among other things, the Board of Elections has to know *where* to expect you to come and vote, so they can have your name on the list for that location. (Having a list of who is going to come and vote, and checking them off, is the only realistic way to enforce the limit of one vote per person, i.e., to prevent ballot-stuffing.) So you have to let them know where you live ahead of time, so they can put you on the list for your precinct. If you move, you're still registered, but you have to update your registration with the new address if you want to vote in the new polling location (and, thus, on the local issues in your new place of residence).
> The only caveat is that you have to be registered with your municipality, which you have to do
> anyhow for various different reasons (municipal tax, getting passports/ID/driving licence
So you can't vote if you don't live in a municipality? That wouldn't go over so well here. Also, while it varies from one municipality to another, most municipal taxes in the US are levied on either income or property ownership (land, specifically), so no, not everyone who lives in a city, town, or village has to register for tax purposes, or any other reason for that matter. There's a census every ten years, but while participation is encouraged (and there's really no downside), it's not actually mandatory, and I think the privacy nuts (ironically, including a lot of the sort of people who read slashdot) would go bonkers and start filing lawsuits if the government tried to make the census mandatory or give it any legal force.
As for the passports, most Americans don't have them. (Before you react too strongly to that, bear in mind that from here I can travel for two thousand miles in any direction, or three thousand miles to the west, without a passport. This is mostly a very good thing, though it would be nice if it were somewhat easier to find people who speak a foreign language fluently.)
As noted above, the driver's license is something whole categori
We have the reliable scan cards (Score:2)
Fill a circle in run it through a scanner, nothing could be more simple and foolproof. I am
really unsure why any voting district would want to use anything other than the scan card system.
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Did you fill in the circle correctly? Does it work with this type of ink? Is the machine calibrated correctly and did it feed the paper correctly so the circle is where the machine is looking?
Don't get me wrong, I love scan cards- fast count and a paper trail for the double check. But it can still fail and has a greater than 0 failure rate even when working. It still needs to be hand checked.
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You obviously haven't ever given a Scantron test. You might guess, incorrectly, that everyone could fill out a bubble sheet properly, but no. Worse, the scanner can't always score properly-filled-out sheets correctly all the time (and it usually fails on incorrectly-filled-out sheets).
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Acutally, the Norwegian system is even more foolproof. A voting venue consist of a single box and multiple booths. Inside the voting booth, you find several stacks of paper, one for each voting alternative. You pick up a pice of paper from the correct stack, fold it, walk outside, and hand it to the person standing next to the box. He ensures that you are only casting a single vote, and drops it into the box for you.
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I think you underestimate the fear of hanging chads, Chep.
Hanging chads are an abomination, and must be thwarted at every turn. And like the God-fearing, proud, patriotic Americans that we are, we turn right to the fanciest gizmos and gadgets we can to make our lives better.
Why buy a jump rope when you can buy a motorized running treadmill with incline, heart-rate sensors, mp3 player, and toaster oven? That's what a communist would do!
[/sad truth]
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Competition (Score:5, Funny)
A man carrying a musket rushed at him. Another threw a brick, knocking him off his feet. George Kyle picked himself up and ran. He never did cast his vote. Nor did his brother, who died of his wounds.
I'd like to see Karl Rove top that.
He did (Score:4, Insightful)
Isn't the greatest trick the devil ever pulled convincing the world that he didn't exist?
He helped steal an election, out an undercover CIA agent, formulated lies that led our nation to war, may not see one day of jail for it, and can continue to deny that he was involved (of course, not on record). He can now join G. Gordon Liddy, Oliver North, and many others of the faithful party who have broken US and international law, and yet are somehow immune to the legal system.
etc (Score:4, Interesting)
Your head is either in the clouds, or in the sand. If you think Bush pushed an Iraq invasion for any purpose but the acquisition of their oil resources, you're doing a great job of ignoring nearly one hundred years of history. This is the fifth time the US and/or Britain have invaded Iraq since oil became the most necessary component of the modern military. You may think it's a coincidence, but I urge you to read something besides opinion pieces.
The Bush White House may be saving him face for the moment, but I haven't seen any compelling argument against the dozen or so books that provide good evidence that he not only ordered the manufacture of the famed letter about Nigerian yellowcake, but went out of his way to have the CIA discredit all evidence - and there was a lot - to the contrary. Defending the president because he's the president is the sincerest imitation of soviet era politics, but so is destroying human rights for the sake of security.
James Kirchick is the former Ralph Nader supporter who couldn't land any writing jobs until he unabashedly began parroting neoconservative talking points, right? Who graduated Yale barely two years ago? What are you, part of the McCain campaign?
And your other source, Norman Podhoretz, is a member of the PNAC. The bias is so deep and obvious I can't even come up with a witty analogy for these two. Bravo.
ripped from Wikipedia (Score:3, Interesting)
"Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests. ... Kill the sons of bitches." -G Gordon Liddy, 1994, on his radio show
"It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great." -McCain, 2007, on Gordon's radio show
Oh, hypocrisy! Does your co
Why do you feel like a wuss? (Score:2)
Now I feel like a wuss for complaining about the lack of a voter-verified paper trail.
In the face of something between malfunctioning and fraudulent electronic machines, aren't you a wuss if you accept the lack of such a trail? I think that complaining/protesting something like that is a sign of conviction, strength, and frankly just giving a crap about something beyond yourself that you stand for.
We sort of accept the rule of law in this country (bear with me), so complaining in its various forms -- soap, ballot, jury ... let's stop short of ammo -- is the way you assert your constituti
In for a penny, out for a pound. (Score:2)
"This country didn't use secret ballots, an idea imported from Australia, until quite late in the 19th century. "
Thanks Australia! We'll return the favour.
Articles like this reinforce why I read /. (Score:2)
This was a really fascinating article.
Interesting articles like this, that I may not find on my own (Don't read the New Yorker) really exemplify why I love slashdot.
That was a great use of my day to read that, thanks /.
Punchscan (Score:3, Interesting)
There are about four groups of people working to rectify this problem. The one I've been following is Punchscan [punchscan.org] which looks like they have everything covered except fraudulent registration. Slashdot covered Punchscan here [slashdot.org].
Founding fathers (Score:5, Insightful)
The article makes the interesting point that our founding forefathers considered secret balloting cowardly. Clearly they did not anticipate violence as a tactic to tamper with elections. Our founding forefathers thought it was important to include an amendment stating that you could not be forced to quarter troops against your will in times of peace, clearly not anticipating that it would not really be an issue today. Some of our founding forefathers thought that slavery was alright. Not all of our founding forefathers thought separation of church and state as we take it today was a good idea.
It always strikes me as strange that people take the constitution as more than just a set of generally good ideas and precedents written by talented individuals. People act like because our founding forefathers said X, it was handed down by God himself.
I usually run up against this when the constitution seems to disagree with my liberal leanings (I'm sure someone will want to get into a pointless discussion of the second amendment, but we've all been down that road), but it's not limited to just that, and I'm sure it runs both ways.
More specific to elections though, isn't it about time we abolished the electoral college and go right to a popular vote? There is clearly no legitimate reason for it to still be around. Electors rarely switch their votes, and, as the article points out, the founders saying it's a good idea does not make it so.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They're regarded as they are because the freedoms in the constitution weren't exactly meant as a means to an end. Freedom and rights aren't a means to achieve a prosperous and safe society, they're ends unto themselves. So if free speech is dangerous to prosperity and safety, it's not enough of a reason to restrict it. The same with the right to bear arms.
Although it is all a matter of gray areas, since although the founding fathers referred to the US as an experiment (there were much safer ways to have a g
Re:Founding fathers (Score:4, Insightful)
If you read the US Constitution, you will realize that it is the States that vote for the President, and that the President represents the States, not the People. That would seem to be an obvious legitimate reason to keep the electoral college around. To get rid of the electoral college, you would have to get rid of the States. The popular vote theater is a 20th century invention, and arguably one of dubious value at that.
One of the big problems in the US is not that we do not elect the Federal President by popular vote, but that so many people who insist on offering their opinion on how we should change the system have no bloody clue how it currently works. The level of ignorance on this topic makes the argument for why the Federal elections, outside of the House of Representatives, have traditionally been firewalled from the popular vote.
You need to take a government class (Score:5, Insightful)
This is one of the problems we have these days, and one of the things that has lead us down this road of abuses of freedom of speech and so on. You, like many others, have this idea that the Constitution is just some document that we should ignore when convenient. Well, that's not how it works. Our legal system is such that the Constitution is the highest law of the land. All other laws must conform to it. It isn't just something to be disregarded when convenient. That's how our legal system works.
So for example if you want the electoral college changed or abolished fair enough, however that requires a constitutional amendment. In case you don't know what that requires, I'll tell you: 66% of both houses of congress need to pass it, then 75% of the states. It isn't easy to amend the Constitution, and that was done on purpose.
Also you might want to learn more about it because you might come to respect it as more useful. Barring a Constitution, any of the crap the Bush administration wanted to pull would be perfectly legal. If federal law was the be all end all, then so long as congress said "ok, it's legal." Now if you are ok with the government just trampling on rights, well then fine. However I don't want to hear bitching when they trample on the first, but silence when they trample on the 2nd.
I can make a compelling public safety and order argument for trampling on/abolishing ANY amendment.
The Constitution isn't just some quaint little document, it is the very foundation of the US government. It is what united the states in to a union, it is what defines the limits of the federal republic we live in (the US is a republic, not a democracy, there's a difference) and so on. It is also the document on which just about every other free nation has based theirs on. So it is something important to understand, especially if you live in the US and are thus subject to it's law. This idea that it is just a quaint piece of paper to be ignored at various times is extremely ignorant.
YOU need to take a reading comprehension class (Score:3, Insightful)
I was saying two things. One: it's not infallible, and does need to be changed occasionally. Two: one of the things that should be changed, now, is the electoral college system.
Nothing about how we should junk the whole thing. Nothing about it being trivial. Nothing about it should be easier to amend the consitution. Nothing about getting rid of the second amendment.
Calm down.
Re:Founding fathers (Score:4, Informative)
Frankly, if you want to disagree with the Founders, at least attempt to reason at a similar strength as they did. The i-pod in your pocket doesn't give your ideas any extra merit.
It's actually a nomad jukebox, the discman-sized one, thank you very much.
The strongest reason is that the primary reasons I've heard for it's existence in the first place are no longer concerns. One idea was that you needed an electoral college because someone could get the nomination of a party and fool the nation, especially since back in the drafting days, most citizens wouldn't ever see a speech by the canidate. As I've heard it, the thinking was that electors would be able to change their minds to reflect the best interests of the nation if upon coming to washington they realized the citizenry had been duped and the candidate was bad. In modern times, this has not really happened.
The wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States)#Origin_of_name) has a different interpretation than the one I remembered from gradeschool: that the electoral college was supposed to merely nominate canidates for congress to choose, because the forefathers didn't realize elections would come down to two canidates, meaning someone would always get the majority.
So their reasons appear to have no strength and are based off of false predictions.
Against the electoral college is what is for me the most convincing argument: that it makes the "One citizen one vote" ideal a joke. Citizens in less populated state have more of a vote than citizens in more populated states. Three times now, that has meant the candidate who more citizens voted for did not get the presidency.
This is a good visual presentation of counties distorted by population and how they voted in kerry V bush
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/countycartredbluelarge.png [umich.edu]
I can see advantages of the electoral college, but none that justify why one citizen should get a bigger vote than another.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Voting on potsherds (ostrakon) was for something else. I will let you guess what.
The voting population of Attika never exceeded 200,000 out of about one million, and probably never reached 150,000. That is well exceeded by any US Representative's district. Also
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I always go back to the democratic foundations of ancient Athenian Greece where it was one vote per citizen and there was true debate in the town forum and citizens voted on potsherds with the mark of the person they wanted. Simple and effective.
Just FYI: that's not quite accurate. (I take it that you're thinking of democratic Athens, rather than any other state in Greece.) The only state officials who were elected by the populace were military generals; all other posts -- council-members, various kinds of representatives and bureaucrats, juries, etc. -- were appointed randomly. The Athenians regarded voting for representatives as fundamentally undemocratic. Voting in the assembly was done by a show of hands; writing names on potsherds was only for
Re:Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
Last time I checked more accountability for elected officials is always better.
Re:Congress (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Congress (Score:4, Insightful)
Then on what grounds would you be able to judge if your congressperson should be reelected or not?
Regardless of any possible benefits this is a terrible, terrible idea. A legitimate public financing system would be more of a step in the right direction.
Re: (Score:2, Redundant)
This week it is YOUR turn to vote "no". (Score:5, Funny)
So the various Congress Critters would all agree to vote "yes" for pay raises ... except for one who would vote "no".
Then, while campaigning, they can ALL claim to have voted against it.
And so on with every important issue.
Re: (Score:2)
However, without any incentive for bribery in Congress, it's likely those in office would be less likely to vote themselves a pay raise. That is, the greedy types would have a different job.
Re:Congress (Score:5, Interesting)
You'd be surprised how honest people can be when their job doesn't rely on what the average dimwit thinks.
Re:Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
You'd be surprised how honest people can be when their job doesn't rely on what the average dimwit thinks.
... which is an excellent argument against electing judges.
Re:Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
You'd be surprised how honest people can be when their job doesn't rely on what the average dimwit thinks.
... which is an excellent argument against electing judges.
True.
Having 3 equal groups within a government and one that isn't accountable to the uneducated masses works best. It keeps thing balanced.
Re:Congress (Score:5, Informative)
Hmm...too bad then, that here in the US, we switched to allowing the populace to vote for our senators, rather than having them appointed.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Congress (Score:5, Interesting)
The law is the law, and shouldn't be controlled by current community opinions.
How is that not counter to "by the people, for the people"?
If enough fucktards want to change the law, move elsewhere and watch them get their just deserts.
Informed decisions based on public debate that includes experts on subject matter will probably lead to better decisions than the will of the average mob. But the law is the people's, not the elite's.
It's easy us to look down on people. But consider this: there may be smarter people than us who govern us. Would we want to be cut out of the loop because we weren't elite enough?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How is that not counter to "by the people, for the people"
Maybe it is, but who cares? This country isn't built on the idea that anything that 51% of the people can agree on should happen.
Ever notice the Bill of Rights? That sort of thing would be pointless, indeed obstructionist, if the intent was to let the populace do whatever they felt like.
True, direct, 100% democracy does not work. Democracy is two lions and a lamb voting on dinner. The US is not set up as a direct democracy and this is a feature, not a bug.
Re:Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
The application of the law is not "by the people, for the people", nor can it ever be. The application of the law, is by the law for the law with a smattering of justice thrown in depending on how just the law is in the first place. The people can(in theory) change the law, they can certainly change the people who made it, they can change the people who enforce it, and they can even change the constitution if enough of them want to.
They can't decide how the laws which have been written will be applied(without rewriting them at least), and should not be able to. It is the judiciary's job to decide whether the law is in violation of the constitution, and whether everything has been done according to the law. We have juries to decide facts, but we need independent and ideally impartial judges to decide the law.
We need this because neither the mob, nor the government can be trusted to protect the rights of those it believes guilty of a crime. If either group had complete control of the application of the law then anyone who the public(or government) believed was guilty of a crime would have no protections under the law. No judge who has to face reelection will ever throw out evidence against someone accused of a crime which the public finds particularly heinous because it was illegaly obtained. No judge who has to face reappointment by the government will protect the rights of someone who speaks out against that government.
The law must presume that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and must protect the rights not only of the innocent, but also the accused, and even the guilty. It must do this because the protection of those rights is what makes the USA what it is, it is, or at least was, the shining light of our society, it's what allows any degree of fairness in our legal system whatsoever, and allows us the freedoms which construct our lives.
The people have the right, and the ability to determine what those rights are, they have the right and the ability to determine both the content and the enforcement of the law, but they cannot control its application, because they cannot(at least as a group) be trusted to treat everyone, even the guilty, as equal before the law.
That doesn't mean that judges are perfect, or that they are always capable of the impartiality which they are charged to uphold, but an educated, reasoned individual has a lot better chance than a mob. If you want to continually reelect/appoint judges then you can kiss you rights goodbye if anyone ever accuses you(guilty or not) of anything which gets the mobs blood boiling.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In essence, by
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The UK has a situation where it sort of has both extremes and, imo, when you do that the unaccountable ones will always win out in the end because the Lords are human too and have the same needs as the rest of us. Having the threat looming over that they could lose that position pro
Re: (Score:2)
You mean so they can be held accountable even *less* than they're getting away with already?
Or did I miss some <sarcasm> tags in your post?
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You mean so they can be held accountable even *less* than they're getting away with already?
Or did I miss some <sarcasm> tags in your post?
How can big business buy votes if they don't know who voted for what?
witch trials and letters would be better. (Score:3, Funny)
You know, they really should bring back the scarlet letter and witch trials. I mean, if someone sitting next to you got a promotion that you didn't, you would be able to start the whispering campaign that your rival cut a deal with Satan.
Re:witch trials and letters would be better. (Score:4, Insightful)
True. I'd personally like to easily know who all the sluts were.