The ESRB Doesn't Take Games Seriously? 330
Eurogamer has word of comments by the president of developer Factor 5, Julian Eggebrecht. The veteran game developer had some extremely pointed things to say about the ESRB, an organization he painted as 'not taking games seriously'. Says Eggebrecht, "I would be happy if in games we could talk about homosexuality, but we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships, and that is a real problem - and it tends to show that games are not being seen, even by our own ratings boards, as an artform ... It's a flat out bizarre system...It makes it even harder for games than movies because we don't have the intermediate ratings. They don't really tell you what they will object to - they just say 'well, follow the standards that have been set before', which is a problem if you want to push the envelope." There's further discussion of this issue at Ars' Opposable Thumbs blog, which points out that the console makers hold some responsibility here too. Meanwhile, Rockstar is asking for help from the wider games industry to help them to fight the ESRB/BBFC rulings.
Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
There's absolutely no correlation between the cost of production and how enjoyable a game ends up being.
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They were simply saying that if a lot of money has been spent on a game (with no statement about how good that game actually is), the game-maker won't stand a chance of recouping their expenses without going through standard distribution channels.
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A game produced by a small shop or in the case of Naked War shouldn't need that big of a percentage of gamers to make money. Naked War appears to be a subscription based game at $19.99 (I didn't dig in enough to see if that is per year or month, so I will assume a year). Let assume that the 2 programmers want to make $100,000 each per year and there will be $100,000 per year in expenses for a total of $300,000 per year. At $19.99 per year, they would have to sell 15,000 subscriptions to meet their expens
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Well, there is a reasonable correlation between cost of production and amount of content in the game, which often means more fun, if not necessarily more fun (if you know what I mean). There's also a very strong correlation between cost and polish. Hey, it may not make a difference to those spartans out there who think gameplay is the only thing that counts, but it does count for the rest of us. I find th
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Re:Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
If anyone knows the difference in sales, it's Rockstar.
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That might have had more than a little something to do with the fact that it was a Wii/PS2 game but Nintendo and Sony don't allow AO titles on their consoles. GTA:SA got rerated AO after release, with future pressing having the AO content removed.
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Sometimes it takes a blockbuster game to make a distribution channel viable. See Steam; Steam sucks, but if you wanted Half Life 2, you needed Steam... so everyone has Steam.
If the game is good enough, people will get it, even if the means is a bi
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No, to make a FPS game consisting of eye-candy or takes a lot of cash.
GREAT games, like Commander Keen, Sonic the Hedgehog, Cosmo, Super Mario Brothers, and so forth take a lot less cash to code. They take more in the planning stages; planning out the puzzles and fun gameplay overall.
FPS games were great, and I think the height of them was Hexen II (opengl version). After that, the graphics got so good that they quit focusing on game play and started focusin
Re:Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem, of course, is any comparison against movies/TV makes this look moronic. If a game was flaunting naked breasts, it would get an AO rating (fundamentally an NC-17 rating for a movie). Meanwhile, movies with topless shots can squeeze in an AA rating if they're careful. Not to mention violence - your average episode of CSI is nastier than what we see in most videogames. Headcrabs are creepy, but they're nothing on that episode of Miami where a guy was wanking off and a giant lampful of maggots fell on him... maggots that were later revealed, graphically, to be coming from the head of a live-but-dying woman on the floor above.
Which, of course, is why I laugh my ass off about political panderers who talk about "tightening up" the ESRB.
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Still, you could easily have that much boob in a PG-13 movie, much less an R movie, and hell there is a lot of softcore pron in R that would be AO city if the same footage showed up in a game.
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Meh, just seems to be yet another example of t
Re:Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:5, Informative)
Incorrect.
Example. Playboy, the Mansion. It not only flaunts naked breasts, it revels and rejoices in them. They are everywhere. Some of the characters cannot wait to get topless in any situation. You are encouraged to photograph them repeatedly. Then, there is the "sex". Ok, so the characters are still partially dressed while having this "sex" (Once you've seen it, you realize it is not actually sex, although the shower animation is pretty close), however, it is still more graphic than GTA:SA. You, as the player controlling Hugh Hefner, are encouraged to have as much sex as possible, with as many different partners. You are encouraged to have multiple girlfriends all living with you under the same roof. Fantasy? Sure. Unrealistic standard? You betcha. Moreso than a Barbie Doll.
Anyone known what Playboy The Mansion is Rated? Anyone? Anyone?
M For Mature.
It makes GTA:SA look like GTA the original, as far as nudity and sex is concerned.
Re:Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:4, Interesting)
Why don't the publishers simply not have their game reviewed by the ESRB and instead label them unrated? I know the big national chains have no problem carrying unrated movie titles.
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Only true for PC's (Score:2)
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As it stands, I'm sure there are any number of AO games out there for PCs, but I'm equally sure that their absence from standard distribution channels means that they are either unrated altogether or AO and only being sold off porn & warez site
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Since no major game retailer will carry the games, it'd be impossible to sell enough copies to cost justify the new hardware.
They play regular Mac games (in the case of the Mac mini) or regular PC games (in the case of the mini-ITX PC). They just output to a 640x480, 852x480, 1280x720, or 1920x1080 pixel monitor that happens to be larger than a typical PC monitor.
Also, if it played regular console games you'd be sued by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo over copyright violations almost immediately.
I don't see Nintendo suing Dell or Microsoft over the fact that N64 emulators happen to be available for a PC running Windows. I also see that Sony eventually lost its lawsuit against Connectix over Virtual Game Station; with this precedent on the books, it becomes har
Re:Use lower overhead and release anyway (Score:4, Insightful)
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Frankly, I think retailers are to blame here. In their over eagerness to not offend anybody's sensibilities, they have shut themselves off from what would be a profitable and niche filling
Online sales are possible (Score:2)
-Valve's Steam (while I personally dislike the DRM aspects, it seems to be accepted by enough customers).
-EVE Online is so far distributed exclusively by download. There are rumors about a boxed version being planned, but even without it, EVE has reached around 200.000 subscribers.
Turn ESRB ratings on their head (Score:3, Interesting)
Forbidden fruit and all.
Why do ratings matter? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why do ratings matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most importantly is the available bandwidth in most homes. While you may be sitting on your cable modem on an under-subscribed segment or on your FiOS link or whatever, most of America, and indeed most of the gaming world has less than a 1Mbps pipe. This makes 7+GB downloads intolerable, especially since most of us have alternate uses for our internet service. Yes you can get a browser that will throttle your download in order to allow other traffic, but that just slows down the download.
Alternatively, some of us like having backup copies of the games we play and don't trust magnetic media for it.
Further, there is still a strong psychological tie to purchasing something physical, which trend is especially prevalent in the previous generations buying for their children and grandchildren. Think about it: would all of these businesses maintain shop space in all these cities and personnel to staff them if it weren't profitable. It's not like it's a lark that a single chain recently took that has yet to prove itself.
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Which is to say, no legal weight whatsoever. Just making that clear.
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Could be... (Score:3, Insightful)
I never thought I'd be cheering corporate power... (Score:3, Interesting)
Or, does the video game industry have enough power (read: money) yet to get government to change the rules?
Re:I never thought I'd be cheering corporate power (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously not, or some senators [senate.gov] wouldn't be calling for probes into video games. They don't seem to have a problem with their buddies in Hollywood, though...
Re:I never thought I'd be cheering corporate power (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, does the video game industry have enough power (read: money) yet to get government to change the rules?
The ESRB is the industry. Jesus Christ, how many times does it need to be said? The ESRB is comprised of representatives from the industry itself and is funded by dues paid by the industry. A quick glance of their web site would have confirmed this for you - what do you think "self-regulatory" means? All ESRB members are signatories of its charter and rules. That includes Rockstar, that includes Factor 5.
The ESRB has nothing whatsoever to do with government. That's why it exists; to head off government intervention.
Re:I never thought I'd be cheering corporate power (Score:4, Insightful)
This is the fall out, the ESRB is scared that it will be replaced with a real censor board, and so now they're ending up being stooges for the government even though they're supposed to the be the industries stooges.
Do we really need... (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp#des
comic mischief (Score:3, Funny)
Everytime I see those ratings (Score:2)
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Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood... Matthew 26 27:28
One thing I never could stand about Christianity...All the damn vampires.
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The ESRB exists for a few reasons (Score:5, Insightful)
However, there is only one real reason or goal that underlies the ESRBs actions and encompasses all of the above.
To keep getting paid for a job that doesn't require any heavy lifting or thinking.
And it will continue that way until videogame companies go the route of comic publishers, giving the ratings system the finger and putting out good "adult-only" title as out-of-store PC-only games until stores and consoles realize that there is money there and they show the ratings system who is the servant.
Comic books != videogames (Score:5, Interesting)
A modern video game (above the level of Xbox Live Arcade material) requires a staff of 20 or more people (not including voice work) and can cost millions of dollars and years of work to develop. This means that money is a VERY real consideration in videogame development. No one is going to spend millions to develop a game that only a handful of stores in the whole country will carry.
Now, you can point out that doing a cheap flash game or simple tetris-like title can be done much cheaper and easier than a full-fledged game. But that's clearly not the kind of game the OP was referring to.
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Don't oversimplify. The video game industry is following standards set by Nintendo. Can you imagine sex or blood in a Zelda game? Its like a cartoon.
The goal isn't to make games just for kids. There's a difference between, for example, Baby Einstein, and Harry Potter. I'd watch the latter but not the former; they want their games to have a broad appeal.
Why is this? It goes way beyond videogames=kids. It
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I can sort of see where you're going with board games, but I don't think rugby or American football, as played at the adult level, would be appropriate for children. So we have five-a-side and stuff like that for the kids existing alongside the adult version.
Just thinking aloud really
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Um, actually, no, there's no such tradition. Over the past fifty years, the government has added civil rights laws that require such respect in certain specified cases (which is why you can't specify your house be sold to whites only
Rockstar (Score:2)
However, if you can see one digital nipple on-screen it's a big scandal.
Like the MPAA Ratings board (Score:4, Interesting)
PS. Jack valenti is still dead and in hell
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For an AO rated game,
Change AO to 18+ (Score:5, Insightful)
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I guess the system is just plain old broken.
NC-17 (Score:2)
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R and NC-17 pretty much say the same thing...You can't get into an R movie under 17 either, unless you've got your parents with you. NC-17 just says, even if you've got your parents, you're still not getting in.
M and AO on the other hand, are 17 and 18 respectively...AO is no different than NC-17...They're both the top end of the scale, even if you apparently can be trusted with unlimitedly bad stuff at 17 if it's only a movie.
Judging by some of the t
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That said, I'd though I'd just say hello so you can say you've met me.
Just so you know:
1) I'm a gamer.
2) I'm in my 30s.
3) I do not have serious problems in my emotional development.
I can say this because:
1) I consider video games one of my primary hobbies and interests.
2) I'm 32 years old.
3) The psychological evaluation I received says such. (I may have a touch of obsessive compulsive disorder, but my emotional development is fine to above average for my age.)
I don't
Maybe we need "unrated" releases (Score:2)
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Wouldn't work, because you've applied that nasty "logic" to the problem. Never accuse a regulatory body of applying logic to their decisions, it will just make you frustrated.
Consider, for example, the "Hot Coffee" scandal last year. You needed to install a goddamned third-party hack to let the protagonis
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We just need (more) independent games (Score:2)
But if developers want to explore topics outside of what is mainstream - why don't they just distribute these games outside the mainstream? Surely they don't need 20M from a publisher to realize their artistic expression. Why not just crank out an independently-released adult game in betwee
Hollywood-ization of the games business (Score:2, Insightful)
And how would that conversation be fun exactly? How would it entertain your audience? Have the gamers of the world been asking for games that "talk about homosexuality"?
The game industry is facing a new threat. It's this Hollywood-ization factor. Game makers are starting to forget their audience and their mission, just as many film-makers have forgotten.
To game and film makers: You are in the entertainment business. No one wants to hear a
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Examples: 'Eternal Darkness', 'Final Fantasy 3', 'Galatea', 'Psychonauts', 'The Longest Journey'
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Re:Hollywood-ization of the games business (Score:5, Insightful)
For some of us, using our brain is a form of entertainment.
Though I don't see how homosexuality would make for a good game, I welcome games which actually bring more than just superficial action. And I'm sure somebody would be able to make a good game out of that subject (or in fact _any_ kind of sexuality, if given the chance. It's about time games started tackling more delicate subject manner in a thoughtful way.
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Why? Can you explain how that might translate into fun? Any idea at all?
Why is it "about time"? What is different about the current time than any other time?
Why games? What would be the goal of "tackling more delicate subject matter in a thoughtful way"? Specifically, what do you mean by "tackling"?
In other words, do you have any facts, reasoning, marketing data, or anything else to support your statement? Or are t
Re:Hollywood-ization of the games business (Score:5, Insightful)
To game and film makers: You are in the entertainment business. No one wants to hear about your ridiculous opinions on politics, culture, or anything else
Right. That's why Michael Moore is out of business and makes no money. Agree with him or not, you can't deny the fact his films are political, and quite popular (and make money).
The fact is that people are entertained by political, cultural, etc films. Why should games be any different? The problem is so far those political, cultural, etc games are just bad, racist, or both (super-columbine-massacre was bad, those nazi extermination camp games are racist (and likely very bad, I've never played them). In any media it's a lot harder to make politics or culture entertaining. Just because YOU don't want those games doesn't mean others don't.
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Yes. I don't care much myself, but I know how to do a Google search.
http://yaoi.y-gallery.net/club/158/ [y-gallery.net]
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I would be happy if in games we could talk about homosexuality...
And how would that conversation be fun exactly? How would it entertain your audience?
You bash them with a bat. Happy?
To game and film makers: You are in the entertainment business. No one wants to hear about your ridiculous opinions on politics, culture, or anything else.
Speak for yourself. I'll keep looking for the rare works of art with messages, you keep reveling in mindless eye candy.
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That's funny. You consider the "Hollywood-ization" factor to be too much focus on reality, and I consider it exactly the opposite, it deals way too much with empty calories for the brain, with brainless entertainment like Cops, "Reality" shows, watered down newscasts, hits to the gonads, sports, and other forms of "entertainment" suitable for neanderthals and mouth-breathers everywhere.
I'd be ecsta
Homosexuality? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Fine. No problem. I'll do that just as soon as I have equal rights.
By the way, "equal rights" means among other things that I am allowed to mention my boyfriend/partner/husband as casually as straight men are allowed to mention their girlfriend/fiance/wife.
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while the "i don't care that you're gay just don't throw it in my face" attitude is very common among us breeders, bear in mind that it represents a significant amount of progress compared to the general attitude of straight society in the 80's, and that not every straight person feels that way.
But was Jade Empire censored? (Score:2)
The game is an RPG and has several romance options (the main character/you romancing a party member). You can play as a male or female and there is an oposite and same sex option for both plus if you are male you can even get both the girls to fall for you. Woohoo indeed.
But on the night before the big battle, when woohoo happens in the movies, you speak with the person you are about to woohoo and while the male/female pairing kiss (male/male I do not known) the female/female pairing cuts of just before th
adult content = art ? (Score:5, Insightful)
So why does more violence and sex make it more of an art form? How about more of a plot? More character development? I can understand about artists wanting no boundaries and not wanting their creativity stifled in any way, but I don't think boundaries are always bad. Eggebrecht draws a parallel with movies and complains about how much movies can get away with compared to video games. Well, let's look at movies in the old days, where they had to work around more limits. In a way that gave them the opportunity to be MORE creative, because they had to SUGGEST more than they could display. Hitchcock movies are VERY suspenseful, even though the violence and gore were pretty tame by today's standards.
You will always have ratings boards or something similar because some consumers WANT them. One person's "art" may offend someone else, so people want to know what they're getting into when they watch a movie or play a game. You may have the right to create whatever content you want, but you can't force me to watch it, and you can't force ESRB or anyone else to give it an "E for everyone" rating.
Re:adult content = art ? (Score:5, Funny)
Because "art" is an euphemism for "YAAAAY BOOBIES!!!".
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However, the acceptance of violence did lead to a great many films and the like that simply wouldn't be possible without it - the work of people like Scorcese springs to mind. I have no problem with sex and violence when it's a valid part of the plot (and no, tacking some gratuitous T&A and gory SFX onto an otherwise good flick doesn't count as valid). I'll admit that i
Denial or just the way it is? (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is that while film gets artsy fartsy conventions and festivals, game festivals are all about marketability and anything even remotely controvertial gets slammed (Super Columbine RPG anyone?).
I mean, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and co have all stated in one way or another that they wouldn't license games exceeding M ratings. Imagine if the companies that build and sell movie projectors had the means to lock-out "unlicensed" film and wouldn't license anything with material they were not comfortable with!
All this combined with useful idiots like Ebert declaring that games cannot be art means there won't be any expansion of thought on gaming until the companies involved grow some balls.
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Mad Magazine (Score:2)
I just brushed over the wikipedia article, so get th
The real problem (Score:2)
Maybe it's YOU, Egglebert... (Score:3, Interesting)
WHO isn't at that point? I can think of two mainstream, A-list games, off the top of my head, that casually included heterosexual AND homosexual relationships:
I've never played the Sims, but I imagine it lets you create gay characters too.
Perhaps the problem is with Mr. Egglebert and Factor 5, not with the industry at large...?
No problem (Score:5, Funny)
You may also encounter discourse on race relations.
Maybe the DEVELOPERS don't? (Score:2)
But yes, perhaps it is a problem. If I wanted to make a game about the horr
BBFC != ESRB (Score:3, Informative)
The article does not make this same confusion, though the
don't look to the ESRB (Score:3, Interesting)
If we aren't careful video games are going to end up like comics/graphic novels. Infantilized bullshit featuring super underwear heroes. If we want video games that fulfill our demand for intelligent content, then we need a few game artists to tell the ESRB to fuck off and stick to their vision. The ESRB doesn't take games seriously, because censors don't take intellectual discourse seriously. Like all censors they'd rather have pleasant than interesting. The problem isn't the ESRB. The problem is that otherwise self-respecting adults take them seriously. If you're willing to be told what to think, do, say, or code and you're not 4 years old, you should be embarrassed.
"I'd be happy if we could talk homosexuality" (Score:3, Interesting)
What? Spongebob Squarepants isn't enough?!
but we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships, and that is a real problem - and it tends to show that games are not being seen, even by our own ratings boards, as an artform
Pssst. Those Sims with the little hearts over the avatars? That's not a secret Masonic password, fella.
"I want to see a game with real sexual content in a store here in Germany - I don't think it will happen unless we really recognise games as an artform," he told the audience. He pointed to Stanley Kubrick film Eyes Wide Shut, which "discusses relationship issues that you have in a marriage". "You don't have that in games - it is time to wake up and make it happen."
So games need more Nicole Kidman fantasizing about infidelity while you, as Tom Cruise, infiltrate a coven of America's elite who just happen to hold their orgies at the estate of the Federal Reserve Chairman while performing Gothic chants in red velvet hoodies?
Mouse control or not?
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In general in the US it seems nudity is considered terrible (its even the first thing you list) yet its OK to have tv and movies that graphically depict people being blown apart, hacked to death, etc. Like its OK to see the inside of a body smeared across your screen, but not to just look at the outside.
Its like your censors think violence is more natural than what god has given us. wierd.
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Consider these games:
A) The player takes the role of a cop. He gets points for helping victims and apprehending villains. He responds to a call and finds villains raping and robbing. He has to deal with the hostage situation.
B) The player takes the role of a villain. He gets points for raping and robbing. Cops try to stop him.
Despite having the same check-marks for content, I find (B) much more disturbin
Re:Hot Coffee was bad enough (Score:4, Insightful)
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