US Attorney General Questions Habeas Corpus 1151
spiedrazer writes "In yet another attempt to create legitimacy for the Bush Administration's many questionable legal practices, US attorney General Alberto Gonzales actually had the audacity to argue before a Congressional committee that the US Constitution doesn't explicitly bestow habeas corpus rights on US citizens. In his view it merely says when the so-called Great Writ can be suspended, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the rights are granted. The Attorney General was being questioned by Sen. Arlen Specter at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Jan. 18. THe MSM are not covering this story but Colbert is (click on the fourth video down, 'Exact Words')." From the Baltimore Chronicle and Sentinel commentary: "While Gonzales's statement has a measure of quibbling precision to it, his logic is troubling because it would suggest that many other fundamental rights that Americans hold dear (such as free speech, freedom of religion, and the right to assemble peacefully) also don't exist because the Constitution often spells out those rights in the negative. It boggles the mind the lengths this administration will go to to systematically erode the rights and privileges we have all counted on and held up as the granite pillars of our society since our nation was founded."
Hmmm (Score:4, Insightful)
First time I've ever seen that. Couldn't be more descriptive of what the administration would like everyone to do... for everything.
And, btw, this load of crap from the same party who ridiculed "That depends what 'is' is."
Rights? Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite the contrary. The penalty for treason is hanging. Don't they swear them in with an oath to protect the Constitution?
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Specifically:
P.S. - Perjury would require statements on the part of Gonzalez that are demonstrably false - in this case he expressed an opinion that the Constitution doesn't offer the right of Habeus Corpus - thank what ever you hold sacred that he isn't a judge in a position to rule on matters of law to that effect.
Re:Not Quite (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not Quite (Score:5, Insightful)
And by trying to broaden the definition of treason with semantic tricks like this, you are doing the exact same thing: reinterpreting your Constitution to mean whatever you want it to mean.
Re:Not Quite (Score:4, Insightful)
Be that as it may, it still doesn't change the fact that GP tried to broaden the definition of crime "treason", or to use his own words, attempted to do an end-run around US Constitution. Getting around requirements of accusing someone of treason by declaring him the "enemy" is really no different than Bush declaring someone "enemy combatant" or "suspected terrorist"; in both cases the rule of law has been suspended for a twisted mockery of it.
In other words, the GP fits his own definition of being enemy.
GP is free to consider it treason; I agree, in fact - perverting the law you've sworn to uphold is certainly treasonous. However, we are talking about the crime of treason, something you can be judged in a court for. Treason is defined in US Constitution as follows: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort". The GP tried to get around that definition by declaring Alberto enemy; it was a purposeful effort to get the treason clause to apply to someone it doesn't, in other words, pervert the US Constitution. Which is what he accused Alberto of doing.
It is hypocritical to judge people for yielding to temptation you can't resist yourself. The GP did so. That was my point.
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that the Constitution is interpreted by whomever sits in the Supreme Court, not necessarily based on the exact law of the Constitution. Certain administrations have twisted the meanings of certain parts of the Constitution (complete lack of respect of the Tenth Amendment, abuse of the "general welfare" and commerce clauses, etc.). It's not necessarily what's in the Constitution. It's who is interpreting it. It's sad, but this is how the US government has been running since 1933.
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
There are three possible meanings to everything in a legal document: 1) It is defined within the document, 2) it is defined within other legal documents to which the parent document refers or draws from, 3) it is defined within the context of the common language of the time that the document was written.
In the case of the Constitution, there were numerous discussions at the time of the writing of the Bill of Rights (for example). These discussions between the writers and States defined the final meaning of every clause. In addition, words like "arms", "people", "militia" were defined within the Common Law of the time the Constitution was written and their meanings are clear.
Those that attempt to say that the meanings of certain words and phrases in the Constitution have changed over the years have a single agenda: to bend it to their way of thinking, whatever that may be (and it's usually not in the public good).
The Constitution does not need to be re-written and in fact can not under the law without going through much legal wrangling throughout the States. It is in plain English and the meaning of some terms that we may not use today can easily be found within many other documents from the same time period. As for the interpretation, the Supreme Court has always had that power. The States have always had the power to question the Supreme Court, but they have lost their will to do so.
PGA
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
Whoa hold up. I think you should rethink what you are saying there. The constitution isn't [b]perfect[/b]. Should I be found guilty of treason for saying it isn't perfect? I'm technically speaking "against" it by saying such a thing.
I highly agree that what he's done here is probably as bad as treason but if we went to the extremes you are talking about the Bill of Rights would of never been written in the first place because it was technically "speaking against" the original constitution that lacked the very amendment we are talking about!
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:5, Interesting)
Certainly if a KKK member can say "bury the niggers... we intend to do our part" and communists are allowed to preach their political ideology of obligation to struggle, then Gonzalez's words are protected speech. He should be fired, and the Congress should impeach Bush AND Cheney, but I wouldn't call it treason...
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Your right to a trial is the single most important right you have, ahead of all other rights. Without this right, you could be imprisoned for no reason at the whim of any military or DOJ official with high enough clearance. This is the very definition of a dictatorship; a leader without law.
I think we should follow Gonzalez instruction, suspend his habeus corpus rights and just toss him in a hole for all eternity where he can starve to death. Maybe after a few months, or decades he will have a change of heart regarding the importance of this right.
Read the transcript carefully... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:4, Interesting)
Somehow I think Germany's actions were a little more severe [wikipedia.org] than Al Qaeda's in terms of death and conflict.
Taking Iraq out of the picture since it has NOTHING to do with the individuals with whom you are at war, you are comparing a few thousand deaths to sixty million people. Get some god damned perspective. Roosevelt also had the support of the allied world.
If you aren't part of, or otherwise helping Al Qaeda, you aren't very likely to run afoul of the Law of War issue
Tell that to Maher Arar [wikipedia.org] and countless Guantanamo detainees.
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's the same technique prison guards use to keep prisoners under control (covertly promoting rival gang factions within the prison); the same technique slave-owners in the not-so-distant US past used; the same technique deBeers uses in Africa.
It's all for one focus: This (presumably not as advanced) group of people in this region have sole control over a high-demand resource. Another group of people sees it and gets dollar signs in their eyes. Instead of invading and subjugating, they sow dissent and encourage factional disputes. The factions sell them the raw material at low cost (compared to world market) in return for weapons to fight their artificial enemies. The US and Soviet Union took turns doing this in the middle east. DeBeers does this in Africa. This war has nothing to do with terrorism, and everything to do with keeping the region destabilized.
Re:Rights? Wrong. (Score:5, Informative)
Since when has *any* government or founding document ever GIVEN a right to anyone? All governments without a single exception have always TAKEN rights away from people. The founding fathers knew this. There are certain INALIENABLE rights all people have, given to them by the only one who is able to give rights, namely our CREATOR. The ultimate right a government can take away from a person, such as the unborn or a so called criminal, is the right to live. Once life is taken, no human can bring it back. In the constitution, the founding father made a good attempt to prevent the US government from taking these God given rights away from the people. Too bad, that the courts have slowly destroyed the constitution over the intervening years.
Re:Speaking on God's behalf (Score:4, Insightful)
What? The ability to claim that your rights are somehow "inherent", and not granted by some government body or other person?
I'm scared of too many people thinking they need to look to someone else to figure out what their rights are, because at that point they stop fighting for their rights.
This is the basis of the Constitution - that government authority flows *from* the people, not the other way around. You don't have to believe in "God" to get this idea - your "creator" can be an entity, the aether, fate, or the lucky happenstance of the right quantum sequence at the moment of the Big Bang. The basis of the Constitution is the same: that your rights are not granted, but are inherent in your very existence as a sentient being.
The idea that your rights come from somewhere else is the fundamental flaw in Gonzales' reasoning. If all your rights need to be spelled out, you might as well forget it. But that's *not* the basis of the Constitution. Instead, all your rights are intact, except a few that are *explicitly* granted to the government within the Constitution.
That's why many of the founders did not like they idea of adding the Bill of Rights. They felt that spelling out those rights would lead to a "backward" interpretation of the Constitutions. Which is exactly what we have here.
Alberto Gonzales is right on that one point. (Score:5, Interesting)
Search: "The constitution doesn't grant rights [google.com]
Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
hypocrisy? that's like saying a judge who might have stepped on a few ants then convicting a serial killer for murder is a hypocrite. one guy is weaseling out of a situation regarding his personal life, the other is trying to undermine our consitutional right to habeas corpus.
seriously, you're a fucking moron for even trying to equate the two. i'm usually not this harsh on people, but this news should be a serious concern for american citizens.
Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, it's not. And move out of the way, I'm trying to see the TV.
Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hmmm (Score:4, Interesting)
No, he wasn't being ridiculous, really, but he was being very precise in order to avoid the real issue. Given that it was a deposition and he used to be a lawyer, it shouldn't be a big surprise that he'd fall back on lawyerly habits. He had a decent, though somewhat weak point:
He was asked to explain a previous statement which was basically 'there is nothing going on between [himself and Lewinsky].'
In explaining it, he said that if you take the word 'is' literally, then he was right. Because at the time he made the statement, the affair was over, and thus couldn't be described in the present tense. OTOH, if you are using 'is' in a loose sense that is inclusive of 'was,' then he would've been lying, because at that time the affair had happened in the past, but wasn't happening any more.
Of course, everyone knew that the affair was over, so it was pretty clear that his initial statement (using 'is' in the present tense) was pretty evasive and misleading, in that he was trying to give an answer to a question that no one asked, instead of answering the question that had been put to him. The 'is' thing is just him trying to justify it, later on. He's technically correct -- the best kind of correct -- but apparently it didn't pass the laugh test. Most of the hubbub over it, however, seems to have ignored the actual context, so it just looks like ludicrous evasiveness instead of boring, ordinary evasiveness.
Re:If people could READ (Score:5, Informative)
I think ol' Alberto is ignoring amendment 6:
Seems pretty clear to me.
Re:If people could READ (Score:4, Informative)
However, the cheif justice of the supreme court who was working on U.S. Circuit Court (in between supreme court mettings) who was also a political oponant of lincon overrulled it citing rule of law and the fact that it never has been done before. Lincon ignored the rulling and congress eventualy passed it into law around the end of the civil war. It also has been envoked a couple of other times without chalenge. Mostley in isolated areas like a single state or parts of a state. One of the mst notable and succesfull suspension of habeas corpus was when president grant suspended habeas corpus in nine counties in South Carolina, as part of federal civil rights action against the KKK.
So even though it seems pretty clear to you, history throws some mud on it. Unfortunatly, the mud and constitution seems to allow it to be suspended. It definatly had good uses against the KKK and allowing some blacks americans the ability to vote!
Re:If people could READ (Score:4, Insightful)
To be brief, I don't consider the fact that something illegal was done in the past, to be a precedent that says that said act is now legal. In other words, I don't see that there has been any mud at all. The ability of the congress to suspend habeas corpus in time of war is written in. That's fine, as far as it goes, however we are not at war, and that's not what this law does. Aside from that, the constitution can be changed by several methods; none of those have been pursued. Therefore, VI stands as a restatement, with no changes.
Either the government's authority comes legitimately from the constitution, or it comes from somewhere else, illegitimately, because there is no other legitimate path. In this case, it is (as per usual, I might add) the threat of overwhelming force.
And good grief man, get a spelling checker, failing other solutions. That was downright painful to read through.
Re:Which district is that? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem for US citizens is that habeas corpus has been suspended for them by recent unconstitutional legislation, and in such a way that no challenge is possible because no one knows where they are being kept, why they were taken, or who they were taken by. Might have been a kidnapping by a ragtag group of manic Islamists as much as a taking by some nebulous "federal authority." And of course the prisoner is of no help; he has no representation, no ability to contact anyone, no prospect of a trial, or even of a speedy determination if he or she is actually an enemy combatant.
Habeas corpus is gone, and with it, every part of the 6th amendment. For US citizens, much less for those who are not. And for those who say "not when the supreme court gets after it", unfortunately, that won't stop the government from its takings and subsequent malfeasance in the meantime, will it?
Re:If people could READ (Score:5, Insightful)
Habeas Corpus is one of the enshrined rights that the government was specifically prohibited infringing upon. Whether it's a "right" granted by God or a "priviledge" granted by the law is irrelevant -- Constitutionally speaking, it's something the feds can not suspend without extreme cause.
On a broader sense, if we have to abridge basic rights to wage this war, then our foes are right to oppose us. We cannot do justice to those who were murdered on 9/11/01 if we sink to our worst level.
Re:If people could READ (Score:5, Insightful)
Given this, and given that Saddam Hussein's regime has been admitted by George W. Bush himself to be unrelated to the actions of 11/9/01, how can the United States claim moral or ethical right to claim justice?
I mean, in pursuit of reckless vengeance, between 11 and 30 times the number of innocent civilians have been killed. Where is the line where the actions of the Muslim terrorists become infinitesimal compared to the blood on our own hands?
Re:If people could READ (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't apply to the privilege of habeas corpus, as the relevant constitutional text makes apparent. The conditions for its suspension are defined as rebellion or invasion. Neither situation is presently relevant. Hell, the Constitution doesn't even specify a "right" to a free speech. It just says that the freedom of speech will not be abridged.
Of course, most people would sensibly interpret anything the government is explicitly prevented from curtailing as a right. Unless they were inclined to Clintonesque word games in defense of the current administration's Constitutional abuses.
Re:If people could READ (Score:5, Insightful)
I am neither a lawyer or a US resident or citizen. However, I am able to use my brain and know a little about the history of jurisprudence. I'm willing to concede that the Writ may not be a natural right, as such (there are other kinds of rights, but for the sake of argument, I'll concede your point), but it is a necessary instrument that ensures that the natural rights of justice and equality before the law are not infringed upon. The Attorney General is correct insofar as the US constitution does not grant the right of habeus corpus.
However, what he fails to acknowledge is that the Writ of habeus corpus is a part of the common law, and so exists, as part of the law of the land in the US (as it does in other countries that inherited British common law). Legislators and the executive branch of government may not overturn that common law, except in the two situations mentioned in the Constitution. For the A-G to imply, as he seems to be doing, that habeus corpus can be ignored by the Executive is to ignore the fact that the Writ of Habeus corpus is legally binding, and the Constitution ensures that this will always be the case through prohibiting legislation to change the common law. The A-G is being disingenuous, pedantic, and a bit of a dick.
Re: Scary (Score:5, Insightful)
So how can one claim to be fighting for freedom and "The American Way", while at the same time taking away that very freedom and desecrating all those men that gave up their lives war after war for freedom and keep from giving a maniacal laugh at the same time?
This administration has to be either the most dishonest or mentally challenged administration in history!
Amendment X (Score:5, Informative)
I don't have anything else to say.
And IX too (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And IX too (Score:5, Insightful)
When will we (as a people) care that our rights are very very quickly being crushed under the thumb of our government?
Re:And IX too (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing is that so many seem to support certain rights more than others and this could be our downfall. Gun owners want gun rights and don't care about free speech. Free speech advocates care about their thing and ignore freedom of religion. Etc., etc. It also seems that Republicans seem more offended at a Democratically-proposed freedom infringements, and vice versa.
If you read some of the other posts on this story, you will see people suggesting executing [slashdot.org], lynching [slashdot.org] or murdering [slashdot.org] the AG (interestingly enough modded "Insightful"); but check their post history and see if they were so exercised when the Senate tried to control certain types of paid political speech by bloggers [slashdot.org]. The AG should most certainly be fired immediately, but one wonders whether party affiliation might have something to do with this selectivity.
The fact is that if you are an American and you haven't taken the opportunity to call and write your Congressmen/Congresswomen and pitch a huge fit, you are shirking *your* responsibility. After that, it may become necessary to protest in street, even if it's not a right that benefits us personally or reflects our party's position.
Simple ending (Score:5, Insightful)
Read some history, ladies and gentlemen. Over the years there were quite a few world powers you'd never think of today: Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and so on. These were countries of POWER. They ruled the world.
And after a collapse, they're now very friendly tourist destinations with lovely countrysides and nice people - who don't get on the nerves of their neighbors.
The state collapse always followed the same pattern. And you can see the exact same thing happening in the USA now. Read it up, you nonbelievers
Personally, I like the USA citizens - at least the ones I met while I lived there for a while. It's the state which is running itself into the ground, and which will collapse relatively soon.
I'm sure the country will turn into a beautiful destination for tourist travels; it'll just take a few years.
Not to mention V (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
...nobody, except for libertarians, seems to care about the Tenth Amendment anymore. Whenever you bring up the Tenth Amendment, politicians would then find a clause in the Constitution, such as the "general welfare" clause or the commerce clause, and then use an extremely broad meaning of those clauses to justify their laws that clearly violate the original and correct meaning of the Constitution. If they can't do that, they then withhold funding to the states unless they comply (read the 55mph speed limit and 21-year old drinking age; they were passed neither because the states universally decided on them nor because it was constitutional, but because the federal government told them "either you pass these laws, or we're not giving you your money. Capice?").
I love the Tenth Amendment, but there are so many violations of the Tenth Amendment in modern America that it feels meaningless. Which is sad, because the Tenth Amendment was there to ensure that the federal government did not get too powerful and trample over the rights of the states and of individuals. But, as I said in a previous post on this same thread, it's not what's written in the Constitution, but who interprets the Constitution. And as long as we have Supreme Court justices who interpret the Constitution broadly instead of strictly to how the Founders intended, the Tenth Amendment will continue to be spat at, and government will be allowed to grow bigger and bigger until we have no freedoms and no economy.
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually we fought a war on this subject, more Americans died than in any other war in American history. The side backing the Tenth Amendment lost so we've had expansion of Federal power ever since. Interestingly the Republican party was also in power then and the one advocating massive expansion of Federal power in defiance of the Constitution. The Republicans also first suspended habeas corpus during this war, and they instituted the first Federal income tax, though it was repealed when the war ended.
The unfortunate part of all this was the inflammatory issue which was used as the test of Federal versus State power and the tenth amendment was slavery which permanently damaged the states rights cause, and along with it the individual liberties cause. We've had expansion of Federal power ever since. The real villain here was a Republican president who was elevated to near god status though he, more than anyone began the dismantling of our Constitution.
A key point here is the dismantling of state and individual rights has been going on since soon after the Bill of Rights was made part of our Constitution. This latest assault is neither new or unique. The Civil War, World War I and World War II all resulted in massive encroachment on our liberties. The Bush administration has routinely used the excesses perpetrated during these periods as precedent to justify the things they do now. In World War II we put U.S. citizens of Japanese descent in concentration camps and seized all their property using Pearl Harbor as an excuse. Its not surprising 9/11 has led to similar excesses. Chances are we will claw back some of our rights, but the erosion will continue. Computers and networks are accelerating both the trend towards totalitarianism and resistance to it. It is unfortunate, but governments and politicians always seek to expand their power, and it requires active resistance to stop the trend. Americans are mostly too weak willed to oppose the trend though.
A footnote, much of the expansion of Executive power you've seen in the past 6 years is almost entirely due to Dick Cheney. He worked in the Ford administration, and teethed on politics during a time when executive powers were savaged, mostly by the Democrats in the wake of Watergate and Vietnam. Cheney has had it as a goal to restore and expand Executive power ever since, and many of the excesses you've seen in the past 6 years are directly attributable to him. Gonzo is just a foot solider in Cheney's war to make an all powerful executive.
Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeached? (Score:4, Insightful)
Or more appropriately, executed for treason?
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
...
Oh, wait. Georgia the country. Curse my American geography education!
I don't understand Americans... (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years later, a different president tells lies about so-called weapons of mass destruction, fabricates connections between Saddam and terror groups, and uses those lies as a means to justify a war that get tens of thousands of people killed. But y'all cool with that?
Re:I don't understand Americans... (Score:5, Insightful)
In Aus.. guns aren't easy to get to, while our TV is innundated by tits and asses... we have less gun problems, and noone wants to get involved in a fabricated war...
Re:Get your fscking facts straight (Score:4, Informative)
Wrong. Impeachment occurs when the US House of Representatives votes to bring about articles of impeachment. Following that, an impeachment trial occurs in the Senate, where a majority vote can cause removal from office.
Clinton was impeached by House Resolution 581 on October 8, 1999, by a party-line vote of 258 to 163. Clinton was acquitted in the Senate by a vote of 55-45.
Re:I don't understand Americans... (Score:4, Funny)
I mean....Won't someone think of....The women?
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:5, Interesting)
Through everything that's gone on, from the constant erosion of our rights, to the outright lies that got us involved in what will be a never-ending war, to the fact that the entire administration has shown time and time again that they couldn't give two shits about what the American people at large think, to the complete and utter disregard Bush has for separation of powers ("signing statements," anyone) the one thing I keep hearing is "support the troops."
Support the troops. Support the troops. Support the troops.
My question is, why are the troops supporting this government? If anyone, anyone has the power to put an end to all of this, it is they. Why hasn't the military staged a coup d'état [wikipedia.org]? Why haven't the troops themselves simply said "enough is enough?"
The part that angers me the most is that these are the people who put this administration in office. Twice! They are the very same people who are getting completely shafted by this government. And they are the blue-collar workers of America. They are the ones whose sons and husbands and uncles (and daughters and wives and aunts) are being sent off to die in a country that doesn't give a fuck about us.
Was it so important that their neighbors, both of whom happen to be named Jim, shouldn't be allowed to fuck in the privacy of their own home, let alone consider themselves married (which, by the way, is just a word -- just a word) that they're willing to die for it? That they're willing to lose their social security for it? That they're willing force an absolutely abominable national debt on their children, and their children's children, and so on and so forth?
Was it worth it, to make sure that everyone says "the theory of evolution," but simply refers to the opposing viewpoint as "creationism" (shouldn't it be "the theory of creationism")?
And if not, why the hell haven't our troops done something about it?
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:4, Funny)
Very few
Anyway, IANAA(I Am Not An American) but my best guess is that the people who'd organize such a rebellion(generals and such) really aren't getting shafted as badly as you feel you are. They apparently don't feel the noose tightening around their necks, and it probably isn't. Plus even a military coup requires some support from the General Public to be successful. The US citizenry has a boatload of guns, and a fair number of those gun owners really like Bush. It might be sad but based off of my interactions with some of them, and watching your TV it's true.
If They kill off/imprison/whatever Dubya and all the rest of the morons in Washington they're going to worry alot of people that they're losing freedoms. Ignorant though they may generally be, people would probably notice if the government changed hands so drastically down there. They're not noticing these sorts of statements by Gonzales effecting any meaningful changes in the way they live their lives. Now if Gonzales successfully removed the right to eat McDonalds and watch "wrassling" then you might be more likely to see a few hundred thousand nutjobs with a rifle go out for some blood. That sort of shit would be too much
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:5, Informative)
It's just unfortunate that the colloquial use of the term "theory" has connotations that make it sound more tenuous than it actually is, and that people who want to promote a certain ancient fantasy exploit that pun to good effect.
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why haven't these fascist assholes been impeach (Score:5, Insightful)
Lynch him.. (Score:5, Insightful)
This whole "how much damage can he possibly cause in 4 years?" attitude is appalling.
Hate to say I told you so (Score:4, Insightful)
This country is slowly turning into Nazi America. History repeats itself... Still think I'm trolling?
Re:Hate to say I told you so (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been thinking for years, that this country is turning into a police state.
A little late, aren't you? The second Bush asserted the right to lock up anyone, citizen or otherwise, 'enemy combatant' or otherwise, this country became, ipso facto, a police state.
A 'police state' doesn't require 'fascism' or whatever, a police state is simply a country in which the police or military do not have to answer to a court as to why they are holding someone prisoner. Aka, Habeas Corpus.
Bush's administration managed to pretend that POWs don't get trials, just various Geneva rights, and that their prisoners are not entitled to those rights, and the fucks in the media went along with the lie, and we suddenly because a police state. Everyone, being held by the government, legally gets a trial, even POWs, no exceptions whatsoever. (It's just POWs don't want trials, because then they'd stop being protected POWs and start being imprisoned felons.)
Everyone has the right to a trial, or you are in a police state by definition, it's not even arguable. That's what a police state is, a state where the executive arm of the government can imprison people without trials. Everything else is just dressing. It's called a police state because no other part of the government has any power, the judicial because there are no trials, and the legislature because the actual written laws have ceased to be important without actual trials, the 'law' is whatever the executive branch feels like doing.
In this country, only the legislature can disable Habeas Corpus, and then only during times of armed insurrection or actual invasion. Which, incidentally, they have not done.
Re:Hate to say I told you so (Score:5, Funny)
Whenener I posted this opinion on this here forum, I was modded as a troll.
Haven't you noticed that when people begin their posts with "I'm going to get modded troll for this..." they usualy get +5 Insightful instead? Try it sometime.
That's closer. (Score:4, Insightful)
Bush hates the rule of law. He hates having to share power with the other two branches of government.
Bush is a proto-Fascist. He does not care about the Rights of the People if they get in his way of performing his "job" the way he sees fit. To him, the Presidency is above the Law. Fascism is seductive. It promises "safety" and "order". And all it asks is that some people you probably didn't like anyway lose their Rights.
In a Democracy, the President is constrained by the Law. He must choose the courses which achieve the objects WITHOUT violating the Rights of the People. Any of the People. Any of their Rights.
Fascism begins when the efficiency of the Government is more important than the Rights of the People.
The trampling of the constitution.... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you shout and cheer for the limitless power given by g readings of the interstate commerce clause and the 'general welfare' clause (quip), you're part of the problem. If you think that the constitution wasn't designed to cuff the federal government into a very limited role it's now outgrown, you're part of the problem.
If you have no clue what the 9th and 10th amendments are, and you think the 2nd amendment is outdated or a 'states right' (*snicker), YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
The constitution isn't a salad bar. You don't get to pick and choose. You either respect it, or you don't. If you don't you'll get some programs you like (SS, medicare, HUD, etc) and you'll get some you hate, losing your freedoms all the way.
The government pisses all over the constitution every day because we let it and we elect people who make and deliver on promises that are not within the assigned powers of the federal government.
The constitution isn't a living document. It means what it says, with the meaning that the orginal writers intended. If it's a living document then it can mean anything, and so it basically means nothing. The original intent of the founding fathers is not an arcane secret difficult to divine- they were quite prolific writers and record keepers- go find what else they wrote and their intent will be clear.
You can blame Gonzalez, you can blame Bush, but you really should blame FDR, blame Lincoln, and most of all blame yourself.
If you really want to get picky on the constitution, then the following goes away:
Every state and local gun ban
The department of education, the Department of the Interior, HUD, Social Security, Medicare, and a whole lot of others I don't remember.
You can argue that some of those functions are proper for the federal government to have and in some cases I might agree with you. The fact remains that all of them exist only because 'interstate commerce' now means anything that can conceivably happen in more than one state, and 'general welfare' now means 'welfare for the individual.' We can change the constitution if we think the feds should have more power. We just don't bother.
You bought and paid for this administration's abuses with a million other trespasses you let slide because they made you feel good.
Re:The trampling of the moderation points... (Score:5, Insightful)
neocons==neofacists (Score:4, Insightful)
They are the most vile, unamerican, undemocratic power grabbing swine in the nation. More than happy to subvert the constitution for themselves and thier corporate friends. Some of them were even saying how Mossolini wasn't such a bad guy after all. They are more than happy to expend a few trillion dollars and thousands of deaths to prove thier grand geopolitical theorys.
Oh, and I'll be the first to say it: Godwin's Law!
These Other Guys Said... (Score:5, Insightful)
Justice Louis D. Brandeis, US Supreme Court Justice 1928 Source:dissenting, Olmstead v. United States, 277 US 479 (1928)
"Men have discovered no technique for long preserving free government except that the executive be under the law."
Justice Robert H. Jackson Source:Sam Ervin, The Whole Truth
"The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances. No doctrine, involving more pernicious consequences, was ever invented by the wit of man than that any of its provisions can be suspended during any of the great exigencies of government. Such a doctrine leads directly to anarchy or despotism, but the theory of necessity on which it is based is false; for the government, within the Constitution, has all the powers granted to it, which are necessary to preserve its existence; as has been happily proved by the result of the great effort to throw off its just authority."
Justice David Davis (1815-1886) U.S. Supreme Court Justice 1862-1877 Source: Ex parte Milligan 71 U.S. 2 (1866) DAVIS, J., Opinion of the Court http://liberty-tree.ca/qb/David.Davis.Quote.5879 [liberty-tree.ca] [liberty-tree.ca]
New Yorker Article... (Score:4, Informative)
Well duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course they're not granted, the government doesn't grant any rights. It can protect or violate them, but not decide that they were not granted to someone.
Re:Well duh (Score:4, Informative)
For example, there is no federal law setting the minimum drinking age. So, why is there a minimum drinking age in the United States? Because the federal government refuses to give highway money to any state that doesn't set a minimum drinking age of 21. Today, all the states have capitulated, but that does not make it a federal law, because the federal government is not granted that power.
Of course, that doesn't stop legislators from passing all kinds of unconstitutional laws, or even the courts from upholding them (somehow, interstate commerce can be used to justify anything in some judge's minds). But in the end, as you said, the people possess their rights inherently. They are not granted by the government.
Some might argue that the Habeas Corpus is not really a right -- the constitution even calls it a privilege. It is more like a procedure to protect against unlawful imprisonment. Even so, the AG is on thin ice (i.e., full of sh*t), since the constitution says that it shall not be suspended. If the procedure is not allowed, then it is, by definition, suspended.
Moo (Score:5, Insightful)
Interestingly enough, it was a Republican, Sen Specter, that challenged him on this. As the article comntinues "Gonzales's remark left Specter, the committee's ranking Republican, stammering."
So, if both parties don't want this, let's hope this guy gets canned, quickly.
Re:Moo (Score:5, Interesting)
that greatly broadened the White House's ability to replace US Attorneys without the consent
of Congress (which they've done quite quickly, replacing longtime attorneys with politically
connected Republicans)? The guy who totally rolled over on the illegal wiretapping program?
That guy?
It's nice that you're so optimistic about the possibility of Republicans acting in the interests
of the nation rather than their party and president. But you're naive if you really expect
anything long term to come of it. After all, 2008 is coming, and it's time to pander to the
fringe.
In Other News... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why won't neocons strictly interpret... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, if one wants to "liberally" interpret the Constitution (e.g., not use a "strict" interpretation), then you could make the argument that Gonzales is making. Of course, no neocon would do that for political gain, nosiree. Yep, they'd strictly interpret the Constitution in all cases.....
Wha? (Score:5, Funny)
The world is quickly becoming a place I dont want to bring a child into.
Then again, im posting on slashdot. I dout i'll get the chance.
My dream (Score:5, Funny)
WHACK!
Then I look at the Constitution again. And I say "Nothing in here says not to whack you again, Al."
WHACK!
This repeats until I wake up.
So what (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So what (Score:5, Insightful)
Well for most of the last six years the Congress has been controlled by the same extremist party that controls the Executive. Why would you think they were going to call a President from their own party on anything. The price you pay of putting one party in complete power is that party can perpetrate massive excesses unchecked by anything but the courts. If that party packs the courts over time.....
The failure here mostly lies with the American people for electing this particular group of people in 2000, 20002, and 2004, though a somewhat broken election system helped in 2000 and 9/11 gave the party in power a massive tool to manipulate the electorate until the shock wore off some 5 years later. You mostly have to blame all this on the gullability of the American people, most of whom don't have a clue when it comes to civics and politics. A little blame falls on the two party system, and the fact the Democrats have routinely sucked so bad the some how managed to make Fascist look desirable by comparison.
I would expect the Democrat's control of the Congress will rein in some of the excesses we've seen in the last six yeas but never underestimate the Democrats for their stupidity and their own fondness for Federal power.
"...the Democrats still won't end the Iraq War because they're afraid a "spin machine" will make them look anti-soldier."
That is an extreme oversimplification. The Democrats CAN'T "end" the Iraq War. All they could do would be to cut funding and force the U.S. to withdraw as was done in Vietnam. That wouldn't "end" the Iraq War. It would probably just move it in to a new phase where the Sunni and Shia could start a full fledged civil war unchecked by the presence of the U.S. military. There is a high probability the Iranians would openly back the Shia, the Saudis, Jordanians and Egyptians would back the Sunni. The Kurds would probably seek an independent Kurdistan which would probably trigger a Turkish military response since the Turks wont tolerate a Kurdistan with designs on the Kurdish parts of Turkey. There is a fair chance the entire Middle East would explode in to a war that would massively disrupt the global economy. If the oil in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Iraq all goes off the market due to a full scale war the consequences will be dire. If Iran and the Shia acquire nukes then chances are the Saudis will get their own to protect Sunni interests.
If you ever watched the old Matthew Broderick flick "War Games", the punch line is basically the same. The only way to "win" was to not play the game. Saddam sucked, but Iraq has been a power keg since it was cobbled together by the British. The wiser George H.W. Bush knew this in the first gulf war which is why he left Saddam in power. His foolish son, clueless to history, world politics and cultures other than Texan didn't grasp this. He lit a fuse on a power keg and its almost certainly going to explode now. Vietnam had no vital importance to the U.S. so there was little price for abandoning it. Abandoning Iraq now that we've kicked the ant pile is unfortunately not going to solve anything. The one saving grace may be that the Middle East is so vital to the entire global economy that if the U.S. does withdraw, the rest of the world's actors may have to step in to try to keep it from exploding.
In most respected Iraq is a no win scenario so you can't really blame the Democrats for not having a "fix". No win scenario is what you get when you elect a clueless, spoiled preppy, who had no clue how the world work, as President of the world's biggest military power and give him a blank check to do something stupid.
We dont need a slashdot discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
"But you only said I was grounded from driving your car. You didn't say anything else about someone else's car!"
People are really strange. My conservative parents will complain for hours about the mere possibility of the government wasting money on universal health care, but throwing billions of dollars down the drain in Iraq and this kind of nonsense and they will only grudgingly admit "mistakes were made". My theory is that people just like killin' the bad guys so much that they don't see how easy it is for us mistake who the "bad guys" are.
Wasn't Ben Franklin one of the founding fathers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Gonzo is anti-american (Score:3, Insightful)
Protect and Defend...? (Score:5, Insightful)
Shouldn't _someone_ be arresting these people by now...? Who does the arresting when the person who is _supposed_ to be doing the arresting is the one that should be arrested?
Yea, I know, slippery slope and all that, but damn, this is sounding a _lot_ like treason (by "pun" or by "confabulation" or some such perversion of the language and with some deliberate mendacity apparent, since nobody can be _THAT_ stupid can they?) executed by or on the behalf of our "elected" leaders.
Gonzales is Right (Score:5, Insightful)
That isn't wild theorizing. It is solid constitutional law.
For instance, the Constitution provides no right of procreation. Most of us would concede it a right of people. So did the Court when the question arose.
The Consitution does prohibit government from infringing on some of our rights, and it gives Congress some powers to protect others, but it grants no rights by itself.
Habeas corpus additionally is not a "right". It is a procedure to enforce a fundamental right --not to be unjustly imprisoned.
As a procedure it is not self effectuating,. It requires statutory implementation. Over the years Congress has both limited and expanded the procedures governing granting a writ of habeas corpus. So have the courts.
Gonzales could have phrased his answer in a form more pleasing to the public. But he is not just "technically right". He is fundamentally right, and the principle underlying his answer is a greater defense of our liberty than a position that the Constitution is the fount of our rights.
Video (Score:5, Informative)
See his comments for yourself. This first video [youtube.com] shows the conversation between Sen. Spector and Mr. Gonzales leading up to the comment, this video [youtube.com] shows the reaction from Sen. Spector and Sen. Leahy.
Truly scary stuff. This administration isn't even sticking to conservative values. They've gone off the neo-con deep end.
Re:Video (Score:5, Insightful)
Since it's patently obvious that the Neocons have been diastrous for the Republican Party, I hope they're jettisoned ASAP. We can't wait for them to admit they're wrong, because that does not happen, ever. Conservatives can, eventually, but Neoconservatives have that weird "vision" thing that is never, ever wrong in and of itself. The core Neocons like Cheney will always believe, just as the core still believe that Saddam was linked to 9/11, etc. We just have to hope that the Repubs sideline them and get back to being conservative.
It may be an academic exercise anyway, because neither Romney nor McCain could beat either Hillary or Obama in the election. The question of "would they be good Presidents?" pales next to whether or not the religious right will vote for them, which they won't. Dobson has already rejected McCain, and Romney is a Mormon. Without Dobson et al, they can't get in office. This isn't to say that I particularly want a Hillary/Obama administration, but if the election were held this week, that's what we would get.
Rights granted by a creator (Score:5, Funny)
In short, I don't agree with Gonzales' assessment because, from what I understand the constitution is a legal and historical document that is predicated upon the earlier work of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration contains the famous central truth statement:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
This central truth statement does a number of things but here are a few bullet points:
1. Individual people and their governments are both under the authority of the Creator.
2. This creator has endowed people with "certain unalienable Rights", the use of the word certain is curious because it bolsters the central truth statement (i.e. "I'm certain that this is true") and it limits the number of rights (i.e. "I get paid on a certain day"). The latter is necessary so that we have rule of law, and not rule of might, or money, or power, or intelligence, or whatever is popular at the time.
3. Being unalienable, it is impossible for these rights to be transferred to another either willingly or unwillingly.
4. The undertone to the sentence is confidently foreboding that "if you attempt to take away these rights you are not messing with just men, but with God".
I'm curious what everyone else's take is on these events.
Re:Rights granted by a creator (Score:5, Interesting)
You may be interested, then, to note that nowhere in the Constitution or its Amendments is the word "Citizen" used to distinguish between the natural rights of "Citizens" as opposed to "People" or "Person" (except, of course, for eligibility for certain offices), which means that the protections of the Constitution are guaranteed to all Persons falling under the jurisdiction of the Constitution, whether by Citizenship or by Location. In fact, the word "Citizen" does not even appear *once* in the Bill of Rights.
Yes, including terrorists.
Americans to get lesson on slippery slopes (Score:5, Insightful)
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Nobody seemed to care about Americans who have a middle eastern background, since those dark boys are the "bad guys" these days. Nope, not the Jews, or blacks, or gays... this time it's those dirty muslims! Nobody raises much of a fuss when they're harassed by the government and police, suspected as terrorists because in this post-9/11 world you gotta... I mean they wear turbans. Or something.
Then people start to get a bit nervous about how the government is wiretapping everything. Or how ISPs are served warrants (secret warrants) for handing over private data, which can not be publicly disclosed. But hey they're probably just after those scary brown islamic people right, I am safe ... right? I'm a white christian, I'm probably safe.
Oops what's this, the military/government is saying detained prisoners can not question the court process or raise objections. No habeas corpus for them? Well that's ok, we should detain them forever without trial! In this post 9/11 world you gotta...
But wait a second. The US Attorney General tells the nation that US citizens do not have the right to question the legal process or authority of courts. That's citizens, as in YOU, not the brown muslim in gitmo. YOU don't have such a right. Now this doesn't sound cool... it's one of the foundations of western law. Could have sworn that US citizens were guaranteed that right. It seemed obvious.
We should have started worrying when those brown boys began losing their rights. Now they are coming after YOU. Wow just like in the historical warning.
seen this sorta thing at the state level (Score:5, Insightful)
What Ohio law does have, for this particular example, was a law like "Data type X shall not be a public record." The agency I was dealing with responded that the legislature must have indirectly given the agency the ability to collect data type X because they went out of their way to recognize it in another part of the code.
Both this and Gonzale's testimony are creative ways of redefining law.
Fingers in the Constitution (Score:5, Insightful)
"Mr Gonzales, how many fingers do you have on your right hand?"
Gonzales:"5"
"Now, the constition says the Government may not chop off your fingers, correct?"
Gonzales:"Correct"
"But the Constitution didn't give you those five fingers, did it?"
Gonzales:"No"
"So Mr. Gonzales, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that since the Constitution didn't give you those five fingers, and the Constitution says the Government can't take them away, that you probably had them to begin with?"
Gonzales:"..."
The depth of irony here is almost beyond pale. The AG of the United States arguing that the Constitution doesn't explicitely grant a right, which is exactly why the authors of the Constitution framed it the way they did to prevent exactly such arguments. The Constitution *grants no rights*, because you inherently have *all* rights. Same as you were born with fingers and toes, you were born with all rights.
These rights are not just if your an American, they are *inalienable* human rights as understood by the founding fathers.
Truly, this administration doesn't understand what "becoming the enemy" means.
Re:old (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:old-Right to bare arms. (Score:5, Insightful)
In the end, it's quibbling over words.
A honeybee can't defeat a man. But then why is it that when a bee buzzes around a man's head that the man runs away? Doesn't make any sense. Nonetheless, a bee can "defeat" a man by making him run away.
Re:old (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, hopefully.
Re:So who does NOT have that Right? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because Bush hired him *because* of such attitudes toward the country and its people. After all, to Bush, the Constitution is "just a god damned piece of paper".
These uncivilized people see public policy and people's rights merely as a speed-bump on their road to greed and power.
-Twi
Re:So who does NOT have that Right? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Contradiction? (Score:5, Insightful)
This was more or less Hamilton's argument against a Bill of Rights. He predicted arguments such as this, based on interpretation of the specific "grant" of right.
But as he pointed out, under the Constitution rights are not granted by the Constitution. Rights, in a government of, by and for the people are held by them in the first place, not doled out by a government that is merely their social tool.
The Constitution is not a grant of rights to the people, but The People imposing limits on the powers of government to infringe and usurp their innate rights. If the government is not allowed the power to infringe rights, no code is necessary to enforce them, and no code exists to be warped into its Newspeak antithesis.
The government only has the power attributed to it by The People. Power is to the people. The Constitution is a limit on the government's power, not your rights. Have we got that?
But The People have come to think of government as the source of power and the doler of rights. Essentially Monarchial. That's why even the term "Liberal" now means a grant from the government, rather than the freedom of the people, and why even "Liberal" in the modern socialist sense is a legitimately bad word in terms of American political philosophy. It implys you are a ward/serf of the state. Someone to importune for a handout, when in point of fact the power, money and services are yours, by ownership and by right.
That these people are being allowed to pervert the system in the name of "Conservatism" to install an Orwellian fascist state is a crime against The People. Literally. The People ought to send them to jail. They belong there.
I fear, however, that instead I, and those like me, shall be sent to exile at best; and the wall at worst.
Been nice knowing you; have a happy; and remember, you do not watch the TV Grandpa, the TV watches you. When you least expect it, you're elected, it's your lucky day. Smile! You're on candid camera. We come in peace. Shoot to kill.
KFG
Re:Contradiction? (Score:5, Insightful)
scissors(government)
rock(people-you,me,all)
too simple
Re:Contradiction? (Score:5, Insightful)
Good point, When is the last time a politician voted themselves less power?
Re:Contradiction? (Score:5, Informative)
Amendment IX.
The enumeration in the Constitution of certain
rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage
others retained by the people.
Amendment X.
The powers not delegated to the United States
by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the
States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people.
Hard to see how Gonzalez wrigles around those and the writ.
Re:Non-left wing posts get auto-trolled (Score:5, Insightful)
If the Ninth Amendment is "hard-left," call me a freakin' Bolshevik.
Re:It's more than an American issue if it happens. (Score:5, Informative)
This is a minimizing and factually incorrect description of what the law accomplishes.
If you actually read the law, you'll see that anyone -- not just "foreigners" -- can be taken and held indefinitely while the government "makes determination whether the prisoner is an enemy combatant" at any speed it chooses to get after such a task, which means that anyone, anywhere in the USA, can be legally taken without notice, held without representation, counsel, hearing, never mind "speedy", or any other "right" as we like to think of them and as the 6th amendment lays out at least to some degree.
Most US citizens have no idea just how bad this law is. I'm delighted to see it being discussed. And yes, you're absolutely right, everyone is threatened. Just don't assume this law doesn't threaten us, the citizens of the United States, equally. It does.
Re:Slashdot Echo Chamber (Score:5, Insightful)
You're kidding, right? It's the slashdot echo chamber that prevents alternate views from being heard. There are plenty of people who have made very astute arguments concerning revolution, Reichstag Fires and secret cabals ruling us from behind the scenes but these posts are almost always modded into oblivion (as this post most likely will be).
Face it, dude. People just don't want to hear the truth. They would much rather close their eyes and go "Lalalalalalaaaa" instead of facing the awful truth. They would much rather argue back and forth about what Clinton did or how dumb Bush is. Blah blah blah.
The truth is that we're in the midst of a slow-motion fascist takeover by a shadowy elite whose ancestors planned the downfall of America from its inception. They were called "Royalists" back in the day, and they've had many names since, but the intent has always been the same: Subjugation. A free and powerful nation has always been a threat to them. Not because they love the crown, or because they love fascism. I admit, I call them "fascists" because it's a useful shorthand, but the truth is they have no motivation other than power itself. Fascism is merely means to an end.
How did this come to be? Well, there has always -- ALWAYS -- been a ruling elite on planet Earth. Whether it was kings, emperors, nobles, merchants, bankers, or warriors there has always been a ruling class. We have one now. They rule because they are rich. But two hundred years ago, America represented a threat to them simply because we were not under their control. Well, now we are. They tricked us into adopting the Federal Reserve, they bought their way into our politics and they infiltrated our business community and our military at every level (but especially the top). America has become just another one of their assets, a corporation with a board of directors (Congress) and a CEO (President) and the Global Elite are the shareholders. They've worked together behind the scenes to remake the system in their image. Outwardly, things look relatively the same, but within our... "their" government, the Elite have their people holding every important lever of power and they've endeavored to rewire our government so that it works for them, rather than for us.
I suppose I sound half-mad to many of you. But I wonder how many of you who are planning on shouting me down realize that you're acting on impulses planted in your mind by our dear, corporate-controlled media to make you think a certain way. It's so easy to silence your opposition when all you have to do is mutter the magic words and people stop thinking. In fact, I'll do it for you. "Conspiracy Theorist." There. Now you can safely ignore whatever I've said and go back to watching TV and surfing the internet for the latest trinkets that you've been brainwashed into thinking you need to buy. Enjoy.
The smartest thing the elite ever did was decide to rule from the shadows. They use visible servants as puppets (Bush) so that if the ax ever falls, it falls on the puppet's neck. Meanwhile, the puppet-master remains not only alive, but completely unseen. In fact, I don't even know who they are. I wish I could point those of you who believe that revolution is the answer in the right direction, but the insanely frustrating truth is that we don't even know who truly rules us. Obviously, it's not Bush. He's too stupid to do anything other than photo ops and speechifying. But there are hints out there. Money seems to be the key. It's the ideal method of control and it gives unlimited power to those can coin it and regulate its usage. As such, my recommendation is to look to the bankers and the blue-blooded families who control the largest banks. You've heard the names: Rockefeller, Rothschild, Warburg, but I bet you know very little about them.
I have some ideas for revealing our secre