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Microsoft Government Politics

Vietnam Courts Microsoft and Vice Versa 298

Posted by timothy from the you-look-good-in-that-dress-no-really dept.
wbren writes "Bill Gates and Vietnam's Prime Minister Phan Van Khai have signed two 'memoranda of understanding' regarding Microsoft's presence in Vietnam, according to this AP story. They met Monday at Microsoft's Redmond headquarters for a closed door meeting and a tour of Microsoft's "home of the future". The agreement reached is expected to strengthen Vietnam's IT industry, as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers. Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record."
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Vietnam Courts Microsoft and Vice Versa More

Vietnam Courts Microsoft and Vice Versa

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  • Further news... (Score:5, Funny)

    by gowen ( 141411 ) <gwowen@gmail.com> on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @05:45AM (#12870648) Homepage Journal
    Microsoft vice-president Lyndon Johnson was keen to point out that the first 21,000 people that MS have sent to Vietnam were not classified as salesmen, but are merely civilian "advisors".
    • Thanks for remembering. People aren't taught that fact (the one you referenced) in class, nor is it hardly ever mentioned in documentaries. It is definitely not common knowledge.

      My father was one of those "advisors." Long before the Gulf of Tonkin meant anything, my dad was participating in a hot war in Vietnam.

      Some people would still argue with me.

      BTW, Eisenhower sent in the first wave of troops, not Johnson.

  • And again (Score:2, Insightful)

    by FidelCatsro ( 861135 )
    MS forces its way into another market with pay-offs completely ignoring the countries Human Rights abuses . You know they could of leveraged their position a little for some good , since they are going to be giving them a lot of software , they could of asked politely that they try to clean up their human rights record a little. You then get a PR coup for MS and the Vietnamese officials and a victory for people.
    That's just dreaming though , Admittedly companies have no need to do anything like this , it wo
    • It would be nice. But lets be realistic, MS isn't the only group out to expand market share. The Linux community was excited to lend a hand to China [slashdot.org]'s Linux distribution. Similarly, google censors [slashdot.org] searches [slashdot.org] in the same country. For corporations, economics will almost always win out over politics.
      • Also there is a strong chance the only reason socialist republic of Vietnam is going strongly with MS is because China is going with Linux. A lot of bad blood over the years between the two (most recently the sino-soviet conflicts in the late 70s and the border skirmishes through the region , though relations are better now ).
        I do imagine they wouldn't want there systems on anything like china has.
    • You then get a PR coup for MS and the Vietnamese officials

      You seem innocently naive of southeast Asian politics. A foriegn company asking for human rights improvements would be a HUGE insult to said Vietnamese officials. They'd probably go home and kick a few peasants just for spite.
      • I've just been doing a large amount of reading concerning the Sino conflicts and history of the region since the opium wars and cheerfully retract the statement(as well as a bit of reading about the history of split from china ).
    • You know they could of leveraged their position a little for some good , since they are going to be giving them a lot of software

      Vietnam already has all the MS software they could want. What this is doing is legitimizing it, as MS did recently by "selling" 50,000 licences to the govt of Indonesia for bootleg software they were already running. Most likely the US govt has been leaning on them, and as Vietnam now exports a lot to the US, (I just heard that the US is Vietnam's largest trading partner now, pr

  • Heh (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kahei ( 466208 ) on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @05:57AM (#12870682) Homepage

    Weird, because previously the Vietnamese were known for their choice of light, modifiable systems that proved very effective against monolithic, bloated American engineering.

    Now it'll be the other way around -- take that, Charlie!
    • Why do you bother with that jBrowse product then, rather than using some web browser made in a different country.

      For that matter, why are you using IE if you hate MS so much?

  • Horrific (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @06:02AM (#12870704)
    As if the US hadn't already done enough terrible things to this country. ;-D

    Joke aside, I don't really see the relevance of the story. MS has relationships with many governments, that the Vietnamese governemnt is now also among them doesn't strike me as exceptional.

    Finally, I also don't understand what mentioning the human rights situation in Vietnam has to do with this article. Don't get me wrong, pointing this situation out is important, but why in this context?

    MS and other big software houses do frequently deal with nations that have a very bad track record when it comes to human rights. (And in case you didn't notice, free software does too. Just think about China using Linux). So I again have to ask: What's the news?

    • I'm not so much disagreeing (I agree with much of your argument), just picking up on your comments about Linux being used in places with poor human rights records: a central tenet of the GPL (and some other free software licenses) is that *no*restrictions* be placed on where the software is used. This sounds absurd, until you recall South Africa: I believe that there's still software kicking around that technically can't be used in South Africa "because of Apartheid".

      Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RI

      • >Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code

        Lets remind ourselves that $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR can use the loophole in (L)GPL that allows xSPs running GPL apps without abiding by the license (as they do not re-distribute the code).

        Here are some workarounds for opressive governments worldwide:

        a) have xSPs (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo et al) do the dirty work fo' ya (Microsoft a bit less likely to use GPL software for that, but still).
        Motto: We're snitches so you don't ha
      • Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code

        If somebody's willing to violate someone else's human rights, then they're probably willing to violate someone else's copy rights.

      • Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code, but I'm prepared to sacrifice that in order that $REFORMED_DEMOCRACY can use the same code *in*the*future*.

        I recently found some software AiR-Boot [ecomstation.ru] that was briefly GPL, but since the invasion of Iraq the author changed the terms and now says "You may only use this software, if you are NOT and were NEVER working for american (US) government at any time", also moving it from a US to a Russian server.

        • I think this highlights the problem with being dogmatic on licenses: how many "good" (subjective) people once worked for the US government, and - for whatever reason - don't anymore? This license explicity bars them from using AiR-Boot. I'd go further and say there are "good" (there's that word again...) people *still* working for the US government. Hell, the US government is more than just the Whitehouse and the DoD. What about aid projects? The US Geological Survey? The National parks Service?

          • I think this highlights the problem with being dogmatic on licenses

            It also shows that putting pressure on governments rarely affects those who make hte decsions you disagree with; as for instance the sanctions against Iran after 1991 killed many children leaving Saddam's fat from black marketeering.

    • Joke aside, I don't really see the relevance of the story. MS has relationships with many governments, that the Vietnamese governemnt is now also among them doesn't strike me as exceptional.

      Finally, I also don't understand what mentioning the human rights situation in Vietnam has to do with this article. Don't get me wrong, pointing this situation out is important, but why in this context?

      This is an actual current-events story that somehow made it onto /.. It's was one of the top local stories yesterday,

  • Minnie Rosoft (Score:4, Funny)

    by EzInKy ( 115248 ) on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @06:04AM (#12870708)
    I courted Mike Rosoft's sister Minnie for a while. She sure was pretty to look at but turned all shades of blue anytime I suggested trying something new.

    Had to dump her in the end though because she was simply the most vain and jealous woman I'd ever met...always wanted to monopolize everything.

  • Does this mean... (Score:5, Funny)

    by 16K Ram Pack ( 690082 ) <tim.almond@NETBSDgmail.com minus bsd> on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @06:09AM (#12870726) Homepage
    ... that Charlie will surf, and with Internet Explorer?
  • Now remember, nomatter what happens with Microsoft and the Vietnamese government or making censorship software for China, it's still Linux that's the un-democratic, commie OS that is against the principles of the United States, freedom, peace and everything that is fair and just.

    If you say otherwise you're just a commie too. Good freedom loving software is made in Redmond.

  • Why can't teachers at MY KIDS school get training? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by museumpeace ( 735109 ) on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @06:21AM (#12870758) Journal
    ...as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers....
    The US has more than 3 times the [cia.gov] population of Viet Nam. Do we have 50000 teachers who have some IT training?
    Just put this story together with yesterday's story about US students turning away from computer [slashdot.org] related careers. What does Viet Nam's government do to get something out of Microsoft that our own state and national govt won't do?
  • No, no! You don't understand. Bill is simply injecting goodness into Vietnam via the backdoor. Once everybody over there is running Windows, the country will be at peace and all political prisoners will be released.
  • Birds of a feather ,they flock together

  • I think it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by suezz ( 804747 ) on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @06:32AM (#12870807)
    speaks volumes when the first time a head of a country comes to the US in over thrity years goes to Microsoft first and then Washington.

    Scarry - very scarry.
  • MS are obviously trying to head off a wholesale take up of Linux based systems. Also probably trying to head off piracy - or at least laying the groundwork for that.

    Wonder if they'll sell a special "light" version of windows.
  • I'm quite sure that MSIE will ensure Charlie don't surf!.

  • people look happy in Vietnam (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dario_moreno ( 263767 ) on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @06:58AM (#12870906) Journal
    I just spent two weeks in Vietnam, and people look quite happy to me...and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore, especially not in shops selling bootleg MP3 and software CDs at 1$ apiece ! There even was very expensive engineering software like Patran. The good thing when you buy a Windows CD there (or DVD for 3$ ) is that when you install it, Office magically appears already configured in several languages with all extensions, as well as Photoshop or Acrobat, Norton and so on. So Microsoft is actually able to put on the market distributions competitive with Linux, usable out-of the box ! Very interesting also in Saigon-HMC : the museum of american war crimes in Vietnam (called now the Museum against war or something like that for political correctness). The very disturbing pictures of agent-orange children or torched villages help to relativize the alleged human rights violations...
    • In case you didn't notice, the people protesting are Vietnamese Americans...
    • and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore

      Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

      In Vietnam, today, people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state. Let alone running a successful business. No real criticism of the state is tolerated. When sending mail to your Vietnamese friends, never send a CD-R. The government will open your mail and check for political/ideological content.

      Yet, you are right to sa
      • Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

        They don't call it "Communism". That is our label. And from a political point of view, I don't know if they really see voting as that much of a benefit. The fact that you state it this way shows that you're still stuck in the 1970's.

        They see their political ladder as a series of steps fueled by corruption. And guess what, they see ours the same way. And maybe they're better off because they

  • Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record.

    I thought that that issue was solved at the moment the US army left Vietnam some decades ago. Or are they going to discuss all the tons of agent orange that were left as a goodbye present?

    Ok, that was too easy

    But I hate to see this happening. I would have preferred Vietnam to follow the software policy of its big brother China. Would be better for them and the rest of the world.

    And we have seen mu

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I wonder what words they'll ban in Vietnam? Will they ban "freedom" and "democracy" like they did in China? Or will they add "human rights" to that list as well?
  • Everyone knows America was the bad guys in the Vietnam War. So the Commies are responsible for the Killing Fields and MS wants to help them.

    Seriously, after aging hippies apologize for wrecking SE Asia, I'll get upset at Microsoft.
  • So he only takes to other heads of state now.
    What an ass.
    How is going to hear what's really going on from these guys.

  • language (Score:2)

    by hey ( 83763 )
    Vietnam had to wait for Microsoft to release a local-lauguage version (of Windows?). If they used open source they could make it themselves.
  • It's not really desirable for a developing country like Vietnam to tie-up it's IT development with Microsoft. Get hooked to Windows and set back your country's progress by a decade? No thanks. Plus, any Windows products with Vietnamese language support yet?

  • Protesters (Score:3, Informative)

    by Whatchamacallit ( 21721 ) on Tuesday June 21, 2005 @08:51AM (#12871643) Homepage
    As far as I could tell from the limited media coverage and digging through blogs most of the protesters were Vietnamese Americans who either fled the Communist Regime themselves or whose parents did. The rest are Vietnam Vet's.

    I've personally spoken with one such refugee who escaped to the Philippines and eventually made it to the US. After the US pulled out, he went home and destroyed all of his documentation proving he worked on the US Base as an aircraft mechanic. He watched his neighbors literally disappear overnight! His house was searched and his family threatened. He moved his wife and kids to his mother in-laws and then he fled the country. It took him many years to save up enough money to have his family smuggled out of the country.

    Vietnam is guilty of many Human Rights violations, many more of the Vietnamese died when the US pulled out then were killed in the entire war! The country denied having any American POW's but we all know they did.

    I think it's despicable that we would open trade agreements with the country. They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism. So why help bail them out with trade deals? The same with China... I think it's a mistake, China has shown little results from all the investments we've made. They are actively trying to crack down on the formerly free people in Hong Kong and not to mention Taiwan. Again, why do we give money to Communists?!?! We know their economy will eventually collapse just as it did in Russia.

    • Re:Protesters (Score:3, Insightful)

      by orzetto ( 545509 )

      They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism.

      Aside from the fact that freedom has nothing to do with economic development (Stalin, Hitler and Pinochet had all quite good economic results), you have maybe not noticed that the Vietnamese economy [cia.gov] is growing faster than the US economy [cia.gov], and not by a small margin (7.7% against 4.4%).
      The fact they are still underdeveloped might have some connection with the fact their country was pretty much razed to the ground some years ago

  • Fuckie fuckie five dollars?
  • How many Windows XP Pirates had I already turned in? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an businessman. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with software piracy in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?
  • Monopolies and Communism - the 21st Century doesn't have to make sense, when it makes dollars. Or dongs [vietnamstopover.com].
  • Amazing, I thought Linux was the communist Operating System that was supposed to undermine capitalism. Now Microsoft is the one making deals with Communist countries.

    If Linux is so anti-capitalist why isn't Vietnam looking for Linux solutions?
  • Today:
    Vietnam courts Microsoft
    Microsoft courts Vietnam

    1990s:
    Microsoft "Vietnam"s Courts.
  • This is the same fun-loving government that conducted the 'Land Reform Campaign', in which thousands were executed for the crime of owning land, and tens of thousands of family members died in forced labor 'reeducation' camps.

    (Estimates of direct executions range from 5,000 to 50,000, and deaths in labor camps from 50,000 to 500,000. Numbers at the high end of the range are suspect, as they were reported in what appear to be propaganda pieces.)

    The government there still operates forced labor police "re-

  • GDP of Vietnam = US$227.2 billion.

    Market capitalization MSFT = US$243.5 billion

    Granted, MSFT's income is only about US$36 billion, but they don't have to maintain a country.

    And while Vietnam can muster a fairly impressive sized army, MSFT has Steve Ballmer.

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