Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Politics Science

Argentina's Presidential Front Runner Vows To Slash Science Funding (nature.com) 151

Javier Milei, the current front runner for president of Argentina, pledged to eliminate government spending on research and shut down the country's main science agency, the National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET), which provides funding for about 12,000 researchers at 300 institutions across the country. The libertarian candidate has said that shutting down CONICET, with its $400 million budget, could help to end Argentina's fiscal crisis. Martin De Ambrosio and Fermin Koop report via the scientific journal Nature: Milei is a relative newcomer to Argentine politics, having become a lawmaker in the lower chamber of the country's Congress only in 2021. Previously, he was an economic adviser to firms including Aeropuertos Argentina 2000, which manages airports in the country. He has also won notoriety as a guest on talk shows discussing economics and his services as a tantric sex coach. His rise was precipitated by eight years of economic turmoil in Argentina: the country owes billions to creditors such as the International Monetary Fund; annual inflation has reached more than 120%; and 40% of the population is living in poverty.

To tame the crisis, Milei has proposed not only privatizing science, but also closing the environment and health ministries, and abolishing the current public-health and education systems. The anti-establishment politician has even floated the idea of allowing people to sell their own organs for profit. On environmental issues, he is equally provocative, calling climate change "a socialist hoax," and saying that a company should be able to pollute a river as it sees fit. "From his perspective, any regulatory intervention by the state represents an attack against market freedom and, therefore, against individual freedom," says Maristella Svampa, a sociologist at the CONICET-funded Center for Documentation and Research of Left-Wing Culture in Buenos Aires.

Milei has tapped into the public's angst. He is currently leading the polls, although electoral experts don't necessarily trust the figures, and his competitors still hope to win the upper hand. [...] If Milei becomes president, say sources who spoke to Nature, researchers will leave the country to seek jobs. They will be able to make a living elsewhere because they are talented, [says Jorge Aliaga, a physicist at Hurlingham National University in Buenos Aires]. But "losing scientists is a problem for the country." Because of economic crises that have long dogged Argentina, brain drain is a regular threat. Hyperinflation in the late 1980s and a banking crisis in 2001 drove thousands of scientists to seek work in Europe and the United States. Even so, Argentina still has one of the best ratios of researchers to inhabitants in Latin America, Aliaga says. In 2014, for instance, it had about 1,200 researchers for every one million inhabitants. By contrast, Brazil had about 890 for every one million people. "In that sense, Argentina has better numbers than Brazil and Mexico," Aliaga adds.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Argentina's Presidential Front Runner Vows To Slash Science Funding

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:34PM (#63930331)

    Republicans have found a new house speaker.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      I know you're joking, but I'd take Javier Milei over any of the clowns in our Congress.

      Even cutting the science spending makes sense in context. Argentina is broke. They need to cut almost everything.

      When the lifeboat is sinking, it's not the time to make long-term investments.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Plus the government grant model is completely broken.

        Instead of Physicists we wind up with Dark Matter Theorists, or whatever Current Thing is, except they lobby to keep Current Thing for the entire length of their careers.

        The grants around Alzheimer's have stolen billions in fraud, which didn't go to legitimate research, so people will die because of the corruption.

        We need to reboot how science is funded.

        • by Anonymous Coward

          Point proven. All the usual conservative morons replying.

        • Well then, got any suggestions but "throw out the baby with the bathwater"?

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            Well then, got any suggestions but "throw out the baby with the bathwater"?

            Sure. But first, you need to understand why the current system is broken. Researchers spend way too much time writing proposals, chasing funding, trying to get published, and way too little time actually doing research. When the research is done, it is often inaccessible, sitting behind paywalls, or even unpublished. Negative results are rarely published, and there is way too little incentive to do reproducibility studies. Finally, most research is useless drek, read by nobody, especially actual practitione

            • Re:And with that (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @04:38AM (#63930885)

              Ok, the current system is broken. I grant anything and everything you want.

              Now for the improved system. Let's see...

              What there should be more of is incentives for results rather than upfront funding.

              So... you first have to secure funding, then if you're successful, we pay for it. You know how you secure funding from investors? By writing proposals and selling your idea to them. That part won't change. Actually, it's likely you'll spend even more time running door to door trying to find a sponsor. And in the end, you might actually end up with less innovation instead of more because some companies might actually have a vested interest in you not discovering a more efficient, cheaper or more environmentally friendly way of doing something because they already corner the market with their existing technology and they would actually pay you to sit on your ass and do nothing because that's more profitable for them.

              Of course not without first patenting the shit out of your idea so nobody else can implement it either.

              Why would a company that makes millions with their current technology in solar panels or batteries, where they have an edge over the competition because they have years of experience with it and optimized the production process, want to let you ruin their profits by leveling the playing field?

            • Re:And with that (Score:4, Informative)

              by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @05:55AM (#63930993) Journal

              The DARPA Grand Challenge is a great example of what can happen by flipping the funding. After 20 years of stagnation, the Grand Challenge got fast and actionable results in just two years.

              Well, no, this flat out isn't true.

              The DARPA grand challenge was won for the first time in 2005. That was a time of massive developments and advancements in computer vision, a huge number of which were nothing to do with the challenge. The DARPA grand challenge also brought in vast amounts of funding from non DARPA sources. Just look at the massive list of sponsors for the winning teams.

              Just look at the kinds of relevant things which were published around 2005 or so, many of them nothing to do with the grand challenge.

              Not going to knock either the challenge or any of the teams involved, but you have way overestimated its importance.

              • by jd ( 1658 )

                It's also worth noting that the DARPA Grand Challenge, after the first year wiping out 100% of the competitors, got a great deal easier. So most of the problem space was eliminated.

                • That too! And of course the people who did it the first year had to find that money from somewhere.

                  Not too dis it though, the 2005 entries were impressive and I didn't think they'd do it. It did show what's possible by integrating all the latest tech really well.

      • Should they legalize drugs, prostitution, euthanasia, gambling, and homelessness too?

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by cbeaudry ( 706335 )

          Euthanasia is legal in Canada, called MAID.
          Being extended this year to mental health and next year to children.

          Drugs are being legalised accross the West.
          Prostitution is ignored.
          Gambling is generaly legalised.
          Homelessness is expanding in the US at speeds not seen for decades. (San Fran poop patrol anyone?)

        • Are you asking on behalf of the party of small government?

        • As a small-l libertarian (IE I'm not a fundamentalist/extremist, and often trend more "practical minarchist"), I can see having legal frameworks for all of those.

          Legalize drugs: The war on drugs has proven to be an utter failure; stop throwing good money after bad, take a step back and maybe treat it as a medical issue. It has worked as a mitigation strategy for countries that have decriminalized. Note: "mitigation" means that you acknowledge that there are still bad effects, just that the bad effects o

        • Prostitution and gambling kept Nevada afloat when the silver ran out.

          At one point there was talk of disbanding it as a state.

        • Should they legalize drugs, prostitution, euthanasia, gambling, and homelessness too?

          Homelessness isn't a crime in most places.

          But for the others, yes, they should be legal and regulated.

        • by vbdasc ( 146051 )

          Don't forget indentured servitude.

        • Re: And with that (Score:5, Insightful)

          by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @05:59AM (#63931003) Journal

          Should they legalize drugs,

          Yes. The war on drugs has been an unmitigated failure.

          prostitution,

          Yes. Of course.

          euthanasia,

          Why on earth not? If, for example, Alzheimers looms in my life, I do not want to stick it out to the end when every part of my mind and personality is burned away leaving behind a rotting shell.

          gambling,

          Isn't that legal most places?

          and homelessness too?

          what kind of barbaric place makes it illegal to be too poor?

        • Yes, yes, no, yes, yes.
           
          If you're by chance talking about killing yourself with your own medication. I will remind you that killing yourself with your very own for other use everyday medication is just an internet search away. No barbiturates needed. (Legally obtained of course, but that would be your point, no?)

      • When the lifeboat is sinking is exactly the time to figure out how to make new resin to fill the hole.
      • Eliminate the military?

    • And the Trumpet has a new role-model.
  • Not everyone can.

    Papua New Guinea has no business spending public money on a space program. The Central African Republic ought to refrain from spending public money on theoretical physics. Ukraine has more important things to be doing right now than spending public money on speculative gene therapy techniques.

    Similarly, perhaps a 100%-plus official inflation rate is a sign that Argentina ought to forgo some nice things now in exchange for sounder finances later.

    • by Roger W Moore ( 538166 ) on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:20PM (#63930393) Journal
      That's true, but if you are in a temporary crisis you have to be careful not to go too far. If you cut too much then you'll lose all your current researchers leaving you with nobody to train the next generation when finances recover and then you lose an entire generation of your brightest minds trying to start again from scratch.
    • Not that I fully understand Argentina's problems but if a nation-state can't at least put up its own satellites that's going to put them in a bad spot. I'm not saying they need their own rockets but they should at least have their own satellites and be able to pay another country to launch them. As for the other stuff that kind of science is relatively cheap. If you start cutting it you end up wrecking your education system because those guys are typically the professors teaching.

      What I can tell though
      • Well austerity doesn't seem to be a solution anywhere because the main piece of research that supported it was based on bad math:
        https://www.cbc.ca/news/busine... [www.cbc.ca]

        Implemented measures certainly haven't propelled countries like Greece or Italy to become EU economic superstars.

        • Or the UK. 13 years of austerity has meant 13 years of decline.

        • by MeNeXT ( 200840 )

          Did you read the article you linked to?

          It states that, yes, there was an error in the math but after fixing the error the results were the same.

          Implemented measures certainly haven't propelled countries like Greece or Italy to become EU economic superstars.

          There is this notion that a lot of people have that an economy moves like a person walking. As soon as a direction is changed the effects will be immediate. In reality a country's economy is like a supertanker. It takes time to move or change direction. Greece's implemented measures have turned the country around. It will be one of the better performers in the EU e

  • by Eunomion ( 8640039 ) on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:25PM (#63930479)
    Not that there has ever been a counterexample demanding further proof of the thesis.
  • I am not dissing any Argentinian researchers .. but a raw measure like researcher ratio is stupid. What kinds of research are they doing, how impactful? Are they being properly funded? Those are the things we should look at.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Granted, Argentina had its share of Nobel Prizes (e.g., Leloir and Houssay), but now CONICET, with a staff of over 30K, is a massive bureaucracy giving grants to some of the most bizarre research, which is questionable for a developing country. This is a sample:

    Title: "Sexualities, Bodies and Love Stories in Romantic Music: Configuration of Gender Identities in a Ricardo Arjona Fan Club"

    From the description:

    "This work shall perform an analysis on two planes of the Ricardo Arjona figure both as a product of

  • if you remember Pinochet's Chile, you haven't seen nothing yet...
    this dude needs to be committed to an asylum for the good of society

  • Ah (Score:2, Insightful)

    His rise was precipitated by eight years of economic turmoil in Argentina: the country owes billions to creditors such as the International Monetary Fund; annual inflation has reached more than 120%; and 40% of the population is living in poverty.

    Ah.

    So the sane, scientific, professional Argentine politicians - all wearing red rubber noses and floppy pants - are all like: "who let this clown in here"?

    Sounds familiar ...

  • He could save the government enough money to buy everyone a diploma.
  • Because this how you kill a country.
    • The country is already on its deathbed.

      Cutting out the cancer, or maybe a better analogy, taking out half the liver, so it grows back strong, is a valid strategy.

  • Agree (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MBGMorden ( 803437 ) on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @08:08AM (#63931217)

    Normally I'm very pro-science and research, but if 40% of the population is below the poverty line I don't think their economy has sufficient extra funds to pursue scientific discovery. Get your basics back in order and restore funding when the economy is in better shape.

    • by jd ( 1658 )

      The problem with that is that if you don't do research, your competitor countries will hold all the patents and therefore all the money. You can't ever budget cut your way to financial security.

      • The problem with that is that if you don't do research, your competitor countries will hold all the patents and therefore all the money. You can't ever budget cut your way to financial security.

        That only makes sense if engineering and patents are large industries in your country. Argentina's main exports are agricultural, ore, and outsourced manufactured goods for the South American market. When your country is broke, you have double digit inflation, and you are deficit spending on programs with no significant economic benefit, you cut those programs. You can re-instate those programs, if you want, when the economy has stabilized.

    • I agree about cutting Science / R&D when you can't afford it.

      But the rest?
      -
      To tame the crisis, Milei has proposed not only privatizing science, but also closing the environment and health ministries, and abolishing the current public-health and education systems. The anti-establishment politician has even floated the idea of allowing people to sell their own organs for profit. On environmental issues, he is equally provocative, calling climate change "a socialist hoax," and saying that a company should

      • when i lived in Argentina in 1994, it was already pretty polluted all around the cities. out in the countryside wasn't so bad, as long as you didn't mind only having running water and electricity if you built those services yourself..
  • by jd ( 1658 ) <imipakNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @08:52AM (#63931353) Homepage Journal

    But I disagree with this approach. Argentina is poor because it is a hotbed of corruption, with very rich, powerful, families controlling the wealth and the real politics. That needs to be cleaned up. Simply giving them more money won't solve anything, it'll only make a bad situation worse.

    Increasing pollution won't help matters, either. If you destroy the natural world, you're (a) eliminating species that are highly useful for our survival, and (b) polluting an environment from which we get our resources. (Contaminated water and polluted air damage health and damage intellect, both of these damage the productivity of the nation and increase the costs because your workforce will be alive for less time.)

    Eliminating science isn't going to have the impact that is claimed. Science is where you get patents and patents mean money. If you're basically giving your competing nations carte blanche to own all the patents, then you're basically funding those other nations with your tax money. That's... not bright. Furthermore, science is where you get innovative products, which are also a significant source of income. Letting rival nations do all the innovation means letting rival nations claim all of the profits.

    I can sympathise with Argentinians wanting something different, but absolute purist libertarianism is a path to economic disaster, just as absolute purist following of any doctrine is a path to economic disaster. There's a reason all the rich companies mix and match their approaches according to the situation and why those rich nations suffer hardship when they forget this and follow ideology over and above rationality.

  • I guess with science out of the way, the people of Argentina truly can turn to religion for all their daily needs. From medicine, to healthcare, to HVAC, to plumbing, religion has you covered. As simple as some thoughts and prayers, your life in Argentina will be transformed to the likes that you've never seen before since the time Jesus walked the face of the earth.

    • I pray every day that God will oscillate electrons inside these copper wires so that I may boil water for my coffee in the morning. Praise Skyfather!

  • Great short term planning. Let the long process of rebuilding your science and research organizations be a problem for a later date.

  • I dunno, how 'bout something wild and crazy, like taxing the fuck out of the wealthy?

    • Their economy is ruined [youtube.com]. It's been a basket case for decades and especially after 2001. It's a basket case because the government aggressively taxes and cleptocratically seizes any wealth it can with Leftist justifications. The ranks of the wealthy [springeropen.com] are tiny and the number of employed people [statista.com] is also very small. This means the tax base [investopedia.com] is small and the number of people clamoring for benefits [sjsu.edu] is huge. So, the math doesn't work and they tried to print their way out of poverty and got hyperinflation instead. [npr.org]
  • The "If You're Listening" podcast did an episode [youtube.com] (visuals 100% optional) on Argentina's economy and Javier Milei recently. It's very accessible, mildly entertaining, and well-worth a listen.

    Basically Argentina's economy was ruined by short-sighted populists back in the 60s (Evita and her husband), and it's been see-sawing between populist and austerity policies ever since.

    Milei's economic policy may be necessary. His social policies are pretty horrid though. It's pretty hard to agree with "legalising selli

You are always doing something marginal when the boss drops by your desk.

Working...