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United States Politics

F-35's Gun That Can't Shoot Straight Adds To Its Roster of Flaws (bloomberg.com) 171

Add a gun that can't shoot straight to the problems that dog Lockheed Martin's $428 billion F-35 program, including more than 800 software flaws. From a report: The 25mm gun on Air Force models of the Joint Strike Fighter has "unacceptable" accuracy in hitting ground targets and is mounted in housing that's cracking, the Pentagon's test office said in its latest assessment of the costliest U.S. weapons system. The annual assessment by Robert Behler, the Defense Department's director of operational test and evaluation, doesn't disclose any major new failings in the plane's flying capabilities. But it flags a long list of issues that his office said should be resolved -- including 13 described as Category 1 "must-fix" items that affect safety or combat capability -- before the F-35's upcoming $22 billion Block 4 phase.

The number of software deficiencies totaled 873 as of November, according to the report obtained by Bloomberg News in advance of its release as soon as Friday. That's down from 917 in September 2018, when the jet entered the intense combat testing required before full production, including 15 Category 1 items. What was to be a year of testing has now been extended another year until at least October. "Although the program office is working to fix deficiencies, new discoveries are still being made, resulting in only a minor decrease in the overall number" and leaving "many significant" ones to address, the assessment said.

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F-35's Gun That Can't Shoot Straight Adds To Its Roster of Flaws

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  • by spun ( 1352 ) <loverevolutionary@@@yahoo...com> on Friday January 31, 2020 @02:49PM (#59675792) Journal

    It's performance is irrelevant to the politicians who okay the spending, since that spending goes to their states. The military industrial complex has ensured that all states get some of the money. Nobody in politics or military contracting cares if service members die in combat, they just care about the cash they get and the revolving door between politics and lucrative consulting positions.

    • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @02:59PM (#59675844)

      Nobody in politics or military contracting cares if service members die in combat, they just care about the cash they get and the revolving door between politics and lucrative consulting positions.

      No, they care, because it means that we need to spend even more money on even bigger contracts to get "better" technology and equipment, driving even more money their way.

    • So happy that my Congressperson spends most of his time complaining about how government, by its nature, is inefficient and should be eliminated. At the same time he is downright giddy at the idea of throwing away as much money as possible on the most inefficient parts such as DOD and TSA.

    • Indeed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by DesScorp ( 410532 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:14PM (#59675886) Journal

      The F-35 makes perfect sense when you realize it's not a fighter plane, and never was. It's a forty+ year rent-seeking scheme from Lockheed. It was built from the ground up to be politically un-killable, by sourcing it's production in so many states. It's a Lockheed Martin full-employment program. Not a weapon.

      The F-16 had a name, the Fighting Falcon. The F-35's should be Ponzi Scheme.

      • Re:Indeed (Score:4, Insightful)

        by kurkosdr ( 2378710 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:25PM (#59675932)
        Technically the F35 has a name: Lightning II but I would go with F-35 Rent-seeker as a more accurate name The thing has the whiff of Lockheed at an extreme degree: Approved for purchase with all competition neutralized, maintenance-heavy, and sacrificing durability because Lockheed made outlandish performance claims their engineering couldn't back up. Lockheed has learnt to operate that way from the days they made spy planes for the CIA. Unfortunately for the US government, they will soon find out that having a couple dozen Lockheed spy planes being expensive hangar queens is different from having several hundred Lockheed fighter planes be expensive hangar queens.
      • Re:Indeed (Score:4, Insightful)

        by JeffOwl ( 2858633 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:18PM (#59676092)

        It was built from the ground up to be politically un-killable, by sourcing it's production in so many states. It's a Lockheed Martin full-employment program. Not a weapon.

        Don't hate the player, hate the game. If the citizenry of the US keeps electing politicians on the ability to bring pork back to their districts then that is the kind of behavior you are going to get. Corporations work for their stock holders, it is the politicians that are supposed to represent the people. When rumors circulate about a potential plant closure, folks like Chuck Schumer call up CEOs and make back room deals to keep the jobs local. What are the politicians giving in return (See Lockheed Syracuse facility a few years ago)? When Lockheed pays Bill Clinton a quarter of a million to give a speech, and a week later the state department (under Hillary Clinton) grants export licenses to Lockheed to sell weapons to middle eastern countries, what's that about? When Trump meets with the CEO of Lockheed and announces a price reduction is the purchase price of the aircraft, don't you think part of the deal is to make it up to Lockheed another way? Those are just examples, many or even most of the long term players in Washington DC do this. Corporations work around political contribution limits by creating an "employee PAC" which is run by corporate executives. The employees are given the option to name a charity they want to support, then any money the employee puts into the PAC is matched by a corporate contribution to the charity. The charity gets the money anyway, and the corporation gets to control PAC cash.

    • Count your blessings. My country bought this POS as well but we're getting none of that sweet pork...
      • Count your blessings. My country bought this POS as well but we're getting none of that sweet pork...

        The American tax-payers thank you. Please buy more.

      • Don't worry, you'll probably get some sweet sweet financial aid or some other payout program.
    • Cause it's invisible!

      Dumpeacho the assclown sure thinks so. [msnbc.com]
      And he should know!
      After all, he has personally reduced the price of F-35s [archive.org] by... Hold on...

      <dr_Evil>

      "Hundreds of millions of dollars!!!"

      </dr_Evil>

      Only you can't really see that.
      Cause it's an invisible plane.

      "With the Air Force, we're ordering a lot of planes, in particular the F-35 fighter jet, which is, you know, almost like an invisible fighter," he said. "I was asking the Air Force guys, I said, 'How good is this plane?' They said, 'Well, sir, you can't see it.' I said, yeah, but in a fight - you know, a fight, like I watch in the movies - they fight, they're fighting. How good is this? They say, 'Well, it wins every time because the enemy cannot see it. Even if it's right next to it, it can't see it.' I said, 'That helps. That's a good thing.'"

      What they tell him, what he understands and what he believes are things which are NOT equally grounded in reality. Cause he's an illiterate, incompetent, senile moron with a brain-bo-bo.

      And he keeps repeating that shit in

    • by bradley13 ( 1118935 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:17PM (#59676088) Homepage

      I agree, and I say that as someone who used to work in aircraft acquisition for the USAF.

      From an operational perspective, the attempt to make one plane fulfill every kind of mission makes it too complex, too fragile, and too expensive to actually risk in combat with a serious foe. Plus being not very good at most of those missions.

      • I agree, and I say that as someone who used to work in aircraft acquisition for the USAF.

        From an operational perspective, the attempt to make one plane fulfill every kind of mission makes it too complex, too fragile, and too expensive to actually risk in combat with a serious foe. Plus being not very good at most of those missions.

        And its not like we haven't been down this path before either regarding multi-mission and/or common aircraft across the services. Navy / Marine Corp sure, commonality has some rational arguments, although there should be some exceptions (Marines should have been allowed the A-10 back in the day). But Navy / Air Force, that's too much, again with rare exceptions for land based aircraft fulfilling very similar roles (Ex C-130). But when you get to the more high performance aircraft you generally have too much

        • The reason they tried building a sports car+pickup truck+passenger van+semi truck kind of aerial vehicle that can do all things for all militaries is because projects like that get funded.
          But who the hell needs VTOL if we have helicopters?
          And why do we need bombers when we have cruise missiles?

          The money-wasting ways of the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about is absurd but not dangerous. But building useless weapons (we still use B-52s because the B-1 and B-2 bombers don't work) is v
          • by drnb ( 2434720 )

            But who the hell needs VTOL if we have helicopters?

            The AV-8 Harrier and F-35 have more payload, greater speed and greater range than the attack helicopters.

            • by Cederic ( 9623 )

              Plus the vector thrust gives them a manoeuvrability advantage in a dogfight.

              Which an inaccurate gun might be useful for, as it'll create a partial shotgun effect allowing a hit with only approximate aim.

      • They didn't learn their lesson from the F-111 and instead they doubled down. Imagine if the F-111 had been required to have STOVL capabilities?

        The one shining positive outcome of the F-35 program is that the Marines now have by far the world's most advanced STOVL fighter, friendly countries around the world can now equip their mini-carriers with something nice, and the UK got to save a few quid up front by not installing catapults (though the added cost of extra sorties and maintenance to make up for low ra

        • by nojayuk ( 567177 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @10:15PM (#59677312)

          The Top Gun aircraft for dealing with Iraqi armour during the 2003 war was the much-maligned F111. The aircraft flew at night at 30,000 feet well out of range of light anti-aircraft guns and MANPADs. The weapons officer would identify lagered-up Iraqi tanks, BMPs and trucks using the plane's FLIR cameras, often registering the IR signature from their still-hot engines and then designate them with a laser before dropping laser-guided bombs onto them with pinpoint attacks. IIRC they were credited with something like 1600 kills, and they usually brought back video of their hits to back up the claims.

          As for the STOV/RL version of the F35 being deployed on the new RN carriers, it's worth pointing out that STOV/RL takeoffs and landings don't stress the airframes the way that CATOBAR operations do. A catapult-launched fighter is basically wrecked after 10,000 flight hours -- the new EMALS will hopefully reduce some of the stresses and rivet-loosening shocks of conventional carrier operations but not all of them.

          STOV/RL is easier to learn and cheaper to train for -- an F-35B pilot can land, taxi across the deck and take off again in a few minutes, doing several "circuits" before having to stop to refuel. Catching a fighter on cables then getting it back onto a catapult for a relaunch is a much more arduous task. It's one reason the USN has to dedicate a nuclear carrier to pilot training 24/7 since the deck time needed per launch and recovery is much greater.

      • Ah yes, the "JOAT" meme.

        Read this, [tumblr.com] then never ever post again, thanks.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Well, obviously. Also obviously, if it gets this extreme, it is a sign of a society in decline. Not the only one.

    • I hate agreeing, but much of our defense budget is a corporate welfare program. If we slashed the defense budget, unemployment would skyrocket and the US would plunge into a recession. We need to wean off defense spending and transition to infrastructure spending.
      • by spun ( 1352 )

        Defense industry jobs make up ten percent of US manufacturing jobs which themselves make up eight percent of the total number of jobs in the US. Therefore, a complete and totally instantaneous shut down of the defense industry would put 0.8% of US workers out of work. Sorry if you work in defense, but I'm just not that concerned. Of course we should have jobs retraining programs, but I really must ask, has the US ever been that concerned about layoffs? The attitude seems to be "Suck it up and find another

    • Looks like the weapons engineers are not going to be watching the Super Bowl at some bar this weekend. I have not seen security bar Fritos and Bean dip. But I am thinking that Cyber Command might want to check all the Coronas for any viruses; specialty if they are piggy backed on to any Tostitos.
  • by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @02:51PM (#59675802)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by Shotgun ( 30919 )

      They should just give the pilot a rifle and let him stand up in his seat to shoot.

      • by dryeo ( 100693 )

        Don't be stupid, it's the observer who should get the rifle. The pilot needs all his attention to keep the plane flying.

        • by Cederic ( 9623 )

          No, the observer often got a machine gun. The pilot would have a rifle or a pistol.

          They even used flechettes, to try and shred an aircraft (or attack an enemy position) below them.

  • Waste of money (Score:4, Informative)

    by Nidi62 ( 1525137 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @02:53PM (#59675812)

    Would have been much cheaper to keep the F-22 production lines running and create updated blocks of A-10s and F-16s. But hey, it made a lot of money for Lockheed Martin and probably guaranteed some good post-retirement careers for several officers.

    • None of what you mentioned would have addressed the Navy/Marine needs.
    • The pilots /really/ like the F-22. They weren't asking for a replacement.

  • opportunity (Score:5, Funny)

    by dj.delorie ( 3368 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:08PM (#59675868) Homepage

    Perhaps they could go into business making blasters for the empire's stormtrooper army...

  • Yes, the F-35 is ridiculously overpriced with the delays that go with it, looking more like a government welfare program than anything else. But it is still very complex, state-of-the-art piece of tech. And because it is a military program, you are limited when it comes to working with the outside world.

    So of course, there are going to be problems. And people are going to fix them. I've seen many big programs where issues like these in the thousands, and people losing hope. And in the end, after years of no

    • Even if they fix all the problems, by the time they do so, UAVs will likely have made the F-35 and all manned fighter aircraft irrelevant (if they haven't already).
      • by GuB-42 ( 2483988 )

        One use case for a modern fighter like the F-35 would be to control a fleet of drones. And I think that with the F-35 focus on stealth and electronics, it makes a lot of sense.

      • by gtall ( 79522 )

        The UAVs would have made manned fighter aircraft irrelevant by now if it weren't for the Air Force and their fighter pilot chorus insisting on manned fighters. The Navy has already tested bot aircraft landing on carriers. And it isn't clear how far into the future the carriers make sense. I suppose they work for small countries but sooner or later places like Iran will have the missile capability to take them out.

  • 873? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 110010001000 ( 697113 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:15PM (#59675896) Homepage Journal

    That isn't very many software defects. Firefox has many tens of thousands of open bugs.

  • by roc97007 ( 608802 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:16PM (#59675900) Journal

    I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm really asking. There's been a LOT of press about the F-35 problems these last few years. I'm wondering how the actual number of flaws compares to previous fighter programs. We've heard of several problems with the F22, introduced in 2005. I don't recall serious difficulties with the FA-18, but that was a long time ago.

    I guess I'm asking, is the F-35 program unusually rife with issues, or are we just not remembering the issues the F-16 had (introduced in 1974, still flying missions) or the f-14 (also introduced in 1974)? Are the issues of the F-35 being over-reported? Or does it just seem like it because of the complexity of the aircraft (more things to go wrong) and because our memory of previous fighter programs is fading?

    • by Areyoukiddingme ( 1289470 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:21PM (#59676100)

      I guess I'm asking, is the F-35 program unusually rife with issues, or are we just not remembering the issues the F-16 had (introduced in 1974, still flying missions) or the f-14 (also introduced in 1974)? Are the issues of the F-35 being over-reported? Or does it just seem like it because of the complexity of the aircraft (more things to go wrong) and because our memory of previous fighter programs is fading?

      The first F-16 prototype test flight occurred by accident when the aircraft developed an instability during a high speed taxi test and the test pilot decided to lift off rather than smash the prototype after a wingtip hit the ground. Right before a 1975 air show, one of the main landing gears jammed during practice of a 9-g maneuver, requiring the pilot to land the plane on its belly.

      The F-16 did have a flight computer of sorts, being fly-by-wire since its inception, with no mechanical linkage at all between stick or rudder pedals and control surfaces. But the original flight "computer" was an analog system. When it was converted to a digital system, 80% of the new electronics could be destroyed via static discharge. In friggin' 1988.

      US military contractors building weapon systems pretty much always bumble their way to completion, rather than actually plan ahead successfully. The addition of complex software to the F-35 has definitely increased their opportunities for screwups, which they're taking full advantage of, so overall defect rates are definitely higher. But there were plenty of screwups in the '70s and earlier.

      • by drnb ( 2434720 )
        Plus early F-16s were lost because a wiring harness rubbed against something during flight, the insulation worn off over time and the wiring shorted out, giving pilots incorrect instrument readings. A very bad thing when flying on instruments, like at night or in bad weather.
    • The F-35 mission equipment is more complex than even the F-22. It is orders of magnitude more complex than the F-18 and F-16. Some of the DRs are over-reported, but for the most part the DRs are things the government found after the fact. Most of the time they are either not covered by requirements or they are artifacts of designs that were approved by the government. So most of the time they aren't just stuff Lockheed screwed up. They can be difficult to get resolved because of politics and arguing over wh
      • by gweihir ( 88907 )

        And there is the problem. Complexity kills. In this case, your own side. Any good engineer knows that the absolute essential thing is to get complexity down to acceptable levels or you do not even need to finish the project.

        • And there is the problem. Complexity kills. In this case, your own side. Any good engineer knows that the absolute essential thing is to get complexity down to acceptable levels or you do not even need to finish the project.

          Apparently not, if as reported elsewhere, there hasn't been a single F35 crash in the 10 years it was under development. That's actually rather remarkable.

          • There has been one, but I have not seen any actual information on the cause. I think a total of 3 aircraft have been lost, out of more than 400 produced. One was an engine fire on the ground, one crashed into the ocean, and I can't recall the third one. The point is well taken though. (Knocks on wood) The mishap rate for the F-35 is lower than any production fighter aircraft in the history of the world.
            • Reply to myself to clarify. The one crash was a "production" aircraft being operated by Japan. So if the intent of the original statement was that none crashed during development, then that is true.
    • by nojayuk ( 567177 )

      The F-35 development program went from flight development to operational status over a period of about 10 years or so with zero airframe losses -- there were three ground-damaged airframes, one of which was perhaps too badly damaged to be worth repairing after an engine fire -- but no holes in the ground and/or dead pilots. That's quite impressive given the record of previous high-performance aircraft development programs.

  • I was at an air show where the F-35 was part of. It was impressive. I know that there are numerous problems. But talking to the various airmen/women that was there. I really didn't hear anything bad. I also seen everyone of the armed service personnel that was at the show climb on their respective planes and watch the F-35 with as much interest as I did.
  • by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:22PM (#59675914)
    Very hard to tell where the F-35 will wind up. It's going to get fixed. They've invested so much in it already, and the US really needs a next-gen platform.

    Once they get all this worked out, it might become a workhorse aircraft platform that sticks around for decades and finds lots of uses. If human-piloted flight remains at the core of air-wars, this is probably what's going to happen.

    Drones are the wild card. If some manufacturer comes up with a high-performing drone that does 80% of what an F-35 can do, and manages to do this in 2025, the costs of the F-35 will never pay off.
  • Damn, You're Dumb (Score:2, Insightful)

    by sexconker ( 1179573 )

    You clowns really think all that money is going to build a fighter jet?

    The F-35 is a cover project that exists only to funnel funds to secret projects that won't see the light of day until the next actual war.

    • Like the star gate program! I saw this documentary where this dark maverick Air Force colonel leads his elite team of a hot blonde scientist-soldier, cute guy in glasses scientist and noble savage African American alien warrior through this alien star gate to other worlds where they make friends with other English speaking humans and bring back alien technology we can use to defeat Isis. Have you seen it?
      • by gtall ( 79522 )

        Nah, they are building UFOs. It's all over the TV. Everyone knows that, we all get the secret memos like sexconker.

    • You clowns really think all that money is going to build a fighter jet?

      The F-35 is a cover project that exists only to funnel funds to secret projects that won't see the light of day until the next actual war.

      I wish I could believe you, because if that were true then the spending would be worth every penny. I find this hard to believe because that would require the kind of foresight and planning that governments are terrible at doing.

  • by JeffOwl ( 2858633 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @03:37PM (#59675966)
    1. The number of defects is actually fairly low considering the size and complexity of the software. 2. Many of the "deficiency reports" are against things that are not actually requirements. E.g. The operational test organization says "We don't like this" (for what may be a good reason) writes a report which gets sent to Lockheed. Lockheed says "Well, there isn't any government requirement that addresses that issue, so we are not in violation of the contract. However, we can certainly fix it if it is that important. Since it is out of contract scope, here is the cost estimate." Then the two spend the next two years fighting over who has to pay for it.
  • So.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by argStyopa ( 232550 ) on Friday January 31, 2020 @04:24PM (#59676102) Journal

    ...when are we going to treat defense contractors who take $billions and provide a non-functional product as the simple thieves that they are?

    Note: I've always favored capital punishment for crimes >$1 million, on the principle that people who are working in those numbers are (one would assume) the best educated, best able to recognize right from wrong* members of our society.

    *that they don't give a shit about the difference is the issue, of course.

    • The problem isn't just with the supplier. I've worked DoD projects. The requirements were vague, and the priorities were always shifting. Teams from different companies had plenty of reasons to dislike each other, but people tried to put that aside because they wanted to program to succeed.

      Why is defense budget is so big and why is it so hard to cut? Why are these defense programs infamously inefficient? Have you considered the possibility that exorbitant defense spending is a socialist-style jobs program?

    • So when are we going to treat government weapons platform requirements and procurement officers who come up with the task sheet of things they want an airplane to do that are contradictory and cause the creation of a non-functional design in the first play as thieves?

      You are pointing the finger at the wrong spectrum if you think it is the defense contractor who is at fault when the government is the one demanding that a single jet replace all the others in the entire arsenal, meaning it needs to have the s
  • I want my money back. When can I expect it?
  • Have become so complex nothing is reliable or easily fixed anymore. They can't even build planes right anymore, and they want to make autonomous vehicles for the public...

    This tells me it is time for the human race to move out into the stars, we need new challenges instead of over refactoring everything we already have since we can't seem to do that right.
    • I like where you're going with this, but moving out to the stars is extremely complicated.

      Maybe what we need is, instead of over-complicated AI directed machines that do stuff, maybe a few AI directed machines that fix other machines.

  • So the gun doesn't shoot straight, what do you expect for only $100 million per plane?

    You're lucky it shoots at all and doesn't just blow up when you press the trigger.

  • I was wondering why they kept missing Iron Man in that second movie.

  • Just think about all the programs that are getting cut bit by bit, while this 1.5 trillion dollar contract keeps lumbering to nowhere good. Meanwhile, everybody insists we have to spend more than twice what China does to stay safe. Frankly, I think we could figure out how to make an effective defense force for 250 billion a year, and take the 350+ billion savings and use it for providing universal health care, affordable college, expanding budges of all major research agencies as well as grants to research

  • I've been following the F-35 saga for years, and it's hard to tell how well or poorly it's actually doing. I've seen multiple articles that simply contradict each other, and I'm not any kind of military expert so it's hard for me to sift through the fog and see what's what.

    But here's what I think I've figured out: overall the F-35 is a success, and the best thing to do is to keep developing it.

    Yes, it's over deadlines and over budget. Not a shock, this is a government program.

    When I read interviews with p [airspacemag.com]

    • by Cederic ( 9623 )

      The 25mm cannon on an F-35 isn't as awesome as the 30mm cannon on an A-10 but it should do some damage and you can fire it a lot more than 4 times

      Not if it only carries 220 rounds of ammunition, which is the amount I last heard was planned.

      Ok, I guess you could get 9 bursts if you limit them to half a second each, or 11 if you're using software to limit each burst to 20 rounds.

      Didn't the A-10 usually do multiple passes with 2-3 second bursts to assure suppression of its targets?

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