Kaspersky Lab Sues Trump Administration Over Software Ban (reuters.com) 185
Moscow-based anti-virus company Kaspersky Lab sued the Trump administration in U.S. federal court on Monday, arguing that the American government has deprived it of due process rights by banning its software from U.S. government agencies. From a report: The lawsuit is the latest effort by Kaspersky Lab to push back on allegations that the company is vulnerable to Kremlin influence. The Department of Homeland Security in September issued a directive to U.S. civilian agencies ordering them to remove Kaspersky Lab from their computer networks within 90 days. The order came amid mounting concern among U.S. officials that the software could enable Russian espionage and threaten national security. The ban was codified last week when President Donald Trump signed legislation banning Kasperky Lab from use across civilian and military agencies.
You Cannot Sue City hall... (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump is only preventing Federal agencies from using Kaspersky Lab's offerings, he's not keeping them from selling to other US customers. You can still buy their products in the USA. I realize that this Federal ban does cut into their market share, but how will suing fix this?
How do they have a lawsuit? Can I now sue the Federal Government if they refuse to use *my* software product?
You cannot sue city hall, Kaspersky Lab's needs to file that suit in the circular file marked "trash" because it's going to be dumped by the courts eventually and turn into a waste of good money.
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Trump is only preventing Federal agencies from using Kaspersky Lab's offerings, he's not keeping them from selling to other US customers. You can still buy their products in the USA.
Playing devil's advocate here (and not having read TFA .. surprise surprise).
If Trump's order rescinds existing contracts then Kaspersky may have a valid claim when suing city hall.
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Uninstall the product. Pay off the contracts. Find another AV product. Move on.
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Trump didn't issue an order. He signed H.R. 2810, "National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2018" into law. That means Congress did it, not Trump. The relevant bit is section 1634, entitled "Prohibition on use of products and services developed or provided by Kaspersky Lab.", which is under Subtitle C, "Cyberspace-related matters".
(a)Prohibition
No department, agency, organization, or other element of the Federal Government may use, whether directly or through work with or on behalf of another de
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Re: You Cannot Sue City hall... (Score:2)
Then civil asset forfeiture is basically marque and reprisal, turning police into privateers. Some how, while seemingly correct, I donâ(TM)t see that argument working out in this day and age. Perhaps we shall see.
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Re: You Cannot Sue City hall... (Score:1)
But they'll find a liberal, PC judge who will rule in their favor. And somewhere there is an illegal immigrant with ties to Kaspersky who will claim the ban discriminates against him.
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As opposed to a Mac judge who will wonder why they have antivirus in the first place.
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Meanwhile the Linux Judge is still trying to install his AMD Catalyst drivers.
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I'll concede that I haven't read Trump's order, so I'll ask. Is the government failing to pay for previously agreed to contracts/purchases or is this their way of disqualifying Kaspersky from future contracts and purchases?
If the government paid and met all previously agreements, I don't understand the theory under which Kaspersky is suing.
LK
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"to"
In a country with secret courts? None.
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Tell me, what "process" are they entitled [to] here?
In a country with secret courts? None.
Do you mean Russia or the US - oh, wait ...
Re:You Cannot Sue City hall... (Score:4, Insightful)
I am not a lawyer.
However, it was explained to me that the problem is that Kaspersky was singled out specifically, rather than failing to make the cut due to certain considerations. It's one thing to say "the government may only buy software from vetted software companies that are not also doing business in Russia" versus naming the company directly even though the end result may be the same. It's like how you can't make laws to single out individuals.
The current ruling means that even if Kaspersky corrects everything that the government doesn't like about them (e.g., moves out of Russia, replaces all their programmers, opens their source-code, whatever), they are still out of the running for government contracts solely because they are Kaspersky, and it is this that the company is claiming is unlawful. The law prevents this because otherwise the government could simply forbid certain otherwise qualified companies (usually because someone in the government has stock in company X and doesn't want company Y to be able to compete).
Or so I was told. Hopefully somebody with a better understanding of both this ruling and the law will be able to clarify the issue.
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Also, naming them directly has probably hurt world wide sales, so they will argue that it was unjustified and seek reparations.
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Historically, government officials have thrown business to their friends and associates regardless of the value to the government, and we've tried putting restrictions on that. Therefore, we have laws on procurement that reduce the problem somewhat (and create other problems, law being a blunt instrument). The DoD may be violating them (or not, I'm not a lawyer), and, if so, that's grounds for a lawsuit.
Re:You Cannot Sue City hall... (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's not just that the Federal government has banned it, I think the mere presence of that ban is having a chilling effect. I know a guy who works for a fuel supplier to an energy utility and they are being told to rip out all Kaspersky products by the utility and supposedly the utility is being told this by the Feds.
Even if this is only partly true, I'd guess its being repeated in other areas. Eventually even if still buying their products isn't illegal or officially banned for anyone other than Federal agencies, this will fan out and ruin its reputation.
I'm of mixed opinions on this. I don't think Kaspersky was proactively engaged in a conspiracy to commit espionage, but I think they are uniquely positioned to be influenced by the FSB in ways that creates an existential risk.
My guess is Eugene Kaspersky thought he could retain Russia as a major office (good talent, a market unto itself, etc) and be a global software player without those two things being in conflict. Turns out maybe he should have relocated and left Russia behind.
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I think they are uniquely positioned to be influenced by the FSB
You mean just like any American company with the NSA?
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Of course but they are not the same... NSA works for US govt, FSB doesn't.
Very typical comment from an American. It's very different because we are the center of the world. Mind you, I am not an American. Hint: Your best move now is to tell me to get off of Slashdot.
So the choice buying from an American company or a Russian one gets down to whether I prefer my data being spied upon by the Russians or by the Americans. And neither looks good.
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It has nothing to do with us being the center of the world. It has to do with being the US. The US doesn't want to be spied on by the FSB, and Russia doesn't want to be spied on by the NSA. Therefore, the US government likely doesn't want to use Kaspersky, and the Russian government likely doesn't want to use AV products by US companies.
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What you describe isn't "due process" but more like defamation. Problem is defamation is hard to get a judgment for in the USA, AND this lawsuit doesn't claim it.
I think their lawsuit is just a PR ploy at best, or a hail Mary attempt at worst. Either way, it's going to be a loss...
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Why do you care about the FSB? They are a domestic intelligence service. Foreign espionage is not their job.
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If the government is shopping for a product and your product does meet the criteria, then IMHO: yes, you should be able to sue them for excluding you specifically from the bidding process. It works like that over here (on the other side of the pond). There are some limits such as no unpaid taxes, etc. But in general anyone can compete.
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But I don't have a right to force the government to buy my product if they don't find my product suited for it's purpose or if it carries unacceptable risks.
The reasons for Kaspersky Labs removal from consideration is pretty clear. They remain a subsidiary of a Russian company and carry an unacceptable amount of risk of being exploited by foreign intelligence services. Given the pervasive nature of the product and where it would likely be installed, the concern is a valid one, thus the prohibition is vali
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Sure. How does it play with procurement law?
IANAL, and I suspect you aren't either. Some of these laws can get incredibly confusing.
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1. the reason should be "you are security threat, you act maliciously, you represent interests of a foreign power, ..." it should not be "you are Kaspersky".
2. apparently the reasons are not clear to everyone - and so the court will have to decide whether they are valid or not. I find that reasonable.
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Depends on why they refused your software product. If the selection of something else, or nothing if they didn't get a replacement, was done according to law, you're going to lose. (You can sue for anything, and many things even won't be thrown out by the first judge to see them.) If they violated the law in not choosing your software, go ahead. You have a good chance of winning, although I'm not completely sure what you'
This feels terrible. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not one to defend what the current administration/congress does but banning the use of software on government and government contractors' computers that is suspected to be under the control of a foreign government seems well within the scope of the law.
Frankly, if they banned Microsoft's shoddy products then you wouldn't need to bother with Kaspersky.
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Frankly, if they banned Microsoft's shoddy products then you wouldn't need to bother with Kaspersky.
It would also be helpful if people were better trained not to follow click-bait and suspicious links.
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Frankly, if they banned Microsoft's shoddy products then you wouldn't need to bother with Kaspersky.
It would also be helpful if people were better trained not to follow click-bait and suspicious links.
The training is pretty good. It would be helpful if people employed some critical thinking skills instead of just blind clicking.
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Banning the use of software on government and government contractors' computers that is suspected to be under the control of a foreign government seems well within the scope of the law.
Not without cause for REASONABLE suspicion it's not. If there was reasonable basis for suspecting the software is a risk, then the details should be communicated to each agency, and their IT department should take care of it internally, AND the intelligence agencies responsible for internal security of the govern
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This is well within the governments national security powers.
Just like they can prevent foreign companies from buying strategic companies in the US including even requiring that prior transactions be unwound and returned to the US. The governments powers in regard to national security are expansive and the supreme court has shown a definite historical tendency to defer to the government where national security concerns are raised.
The chances of success in this suit are very limited, Kaspersky is wasting mon
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I would agree, but then there are these little gems in the order:
1: Kaspersky-branded products means information security products, solutions, and services supplied, directly or indirectly, by AO Kaspersky Lab or any of its predecessors, successors, parents, subsidiaries, or affiliates
2: This directive does not address Kaspersky code embedded in the products of other companies.
This is nothing but a coordinated campaign to destroy Kasperskys business. Maybe we should be asking why.
Notification of Binding Operative Direction 17-01 [federalregister.gov]
Due process rights? (Score:3)
What the F are they smoking?
There is no right to have people buy your products...
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People aren't the issue here. Sales to the federal government are. Kasperksy has a US subsidiary. The US subsidiary is a US citizen to the extent the Supreme Court has said corporations are citizens. The US subsidiary has due process rights under the US constitution. Trump saying the US subsidiary cant sell its software to the US government because its actually a hostile arm of the KGB or whatever the exact accusation is doesn't fly without due process. The US subsidiary is entitled to it's day in court. At
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Trump is not saying they cannot SELL they can still sell this stuff... He's only saying that the Federal government may not BUY the software.
If you want to run out and buy or sell copies of this software, it's still perfectly legal for citizens or companies to do so.
This lawsuit is bogus, frivolous and a waste of time and money. Nobody's due process rights have been violated here.
At best, this is but a PR stunt....
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Congress only dictated that the government may not purchase this company's products. They didn't ban the company from doing business or take any of their property away, only made it illegal for the federal government to purchase this companies products. Sucks that it's their biggest customer, but if congress doesn't have the right to decide where the money the budget gets spent, what rights does congress have here?
IF congress had banned the company from doing business or actually taken their property with
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Thing is, according to United States vs. Lovett [wikipedia.org], this is a bill of attainder. The Supreme Court held that the law in question specified a person, imposed some sort of punishment (they couldn't be hired by the Federal Government), and wasn't due to judicial action. In this case, a specifically named company is barred from selling to the Federal government by statute rather than judicial action, which looks awfully similar.
There's ways this law could work, as long as it doesn't mention Kaspersky. It cou
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After reading about this, I suppose that might work. However, if the law the defunded ACORN wasn't upheld as a bill of attainder, this won't be..
Kaspersky isn't having any property confiscated nor are they being punished for some wrong doing. They are only being deprived of FUTURE revenue though sales of products to one specific customer. If ACRON lost it's federal funding though a law that made it illegal and that's not a bill of attainder, then this isn't either.
I suppose they may make it though the
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Oh they can bid, they just cannot win... Just like ACORN can apply for grants, but won't be given any.
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This is the correct answer.
So far, accusations have only reached the threshold of "allegation."
The next step calls for motions of discovery, depositions, exhibits and expert witnesses.
The lawsuit itself is harmless.
Due process will prevail.
Nothing to see here.
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What the F are they smoking?
There is no right to have people buy your products...
I'm not sure about the USA, but in many countries you do have the right not to be unfairly excluded from the procurement process.
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That is...ridiculous
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No that is "open government" hell it's not even just governments, private corporations sue each other over this stuff constantly.
Do I need this software? (Score:1, Troll)
I don't run any anti-virus software on any of my computers (Mac, Linux, Chromebook).
Why would I want to use this Kaspersky software? Does it run on any of my computers? Do I need to buy a new computer?
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Answers in order:
NO.
NO.
NO.
Go back to sleep now.
Whoever thought this was a good idea in the first (Score:5, Insightful)
place? Sheesh, let's see, our government uses closed source SECURITY software from a company located in a (hostile?) foreign country and everyone in the US doesn't automatically think it's a Bad Idea?
And yes I know there's a lot of software made outside of the US by non-US companies that are likely used in the US gov't, but security, especially closed-source, software should not be one of those.
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IIRC, they just removed Kaspersky from the list of potential suppliers. That is, they actively forbid any future government contracts to Kaspersky, but that didn't mean Kaspersky had ever gotten any before.
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I didn't know the US is a hostile foreign country to the US. The things one learn...
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Please elaborate. I fail to see the relevancy to my post. Do you think Kaspersky is a US company?
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place? Sheesh, let's see, our government uses closed source SECURITY software from a company located in a (hostile?) foreign country and everyone in the US doesn't automatically think it's a Bad Idea?
I agree with you, but let's not get distracted from the real issue here. First of all, any organization is free to audit the Kaspersky software. This was even true before this incident.
The real issue here is that an idiot NSA developer took his work home with him and put it on his personal laptop.
According to Kaspersky, its security package running on the PC detected Pho's copies of the NSA exploits as new malicious software, and uploaded the powerful spyware to its cloud for further analysis by its researchers.
[...]
Kaspersky Lab has denied any wrongdoing in the matter or illicit ties to Russian intelligence. The security vendor also pointed out Pho's machine was infected with loads of malware, meaning any miscreant could have stolen Uncle Sam's cyber-weapons.
source [theregister.co.uk]
In other words, the NSA seems incapable of keeping its top secret information secret. That employee should never have been able to download source code from the NSA.
He was a developer, not a system administrator. T
What's the biggest vulnerability? (Score:3)
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Kaspersky Lab (Score:2)
Kaspersky is partially to blame themselves (Score:2)
They should - as soon as the story broke - have moved their servers outside Russia and the reach of Putin, just to eliminate any possibility of interference. They didn't do that, which could be interpreted as unwillingness or similar, possibly due to legal pressure within Russia, keeping the rumor of (forced?) surveillance intact.
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If only, AC. If only...
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For banning Kaspersky software? You lost me there. Or did you miss telling us something?
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Well to go with your analogy... in this case he's not ordering Americans to lay down arms, he's ordering Americans not to welcome the enemy into their homes.
I'd say it's perfectly in line with Trump's love of trade barriers, and it'll also align fairly well with the interests of American intelligence agencies (who can spy on you more easily if you use American antivirus software).
It's also at odds with Trump's man-crush on Putin and apparent trust of Russian intelligence over American agencies.
If Trump goes
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Yet Putin just thanked the CIA for providing actionable intelligence on a potential terrorist attack inside Russia.
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It probably would have been better (for Trump) if Putin hadn't done that. However, as for providing the intel... I'd do it to, so long as there was a reasonable expectation that the favour might one day be returned.
You can be a competitor with someone - and so far as I know at present the USA and Russia aren't in any immediate danger of open hostilities breaking out - and still have some areas of cooperation due to common interest.
I'm not particularly well versed in international politics, but I suspect t
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>However, as for providing the intel... I'd do it to, so long as there was a reasonable expectation that the favour might one day be returned.
Here's that 'o' I missed:
o
If any more letters of the alphabet are missing, please provide your own and I'll reimburse you at a later date.
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I dunno.. i mean innocent people losing their lives is a bad thing regardless of the diplomatic relationship with the country. I'd rather not have people die due to a tit for tat mentality.
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... I suspect there are better ways of retaliating against Russia should the American government acknowledge Russian election meddling than standing by as a terrorist attack is carried out.
Helping an adversary when they're in trouble is called "taking the high road". It's a completely new concept for Trump and his administration, so it will feel strange to them -- and us -- for a while, especially if they try continuing down that road (but, I'm not holding my breath).
Re: Donald Trump is going to prison for TREASON (Score:2)
he's ordering Americans not to welcome the enemy into their homes.
I pity the poor bastards who call government agencies "home".
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This will have a cascade effect as Kaspersky is effectively dead in the USA, government agency or not.
Re: Donald Trump is going to prison for TREASON (Score:2)
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But Trump works for Putin. why would Putin sue him?!
Why wouldn't he?
It's a lawsuit that's going nowhere anyway... Unless the government agrees to be sued, this will be dismissed.
Re:And Kaspersky will win. (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. It would be the end of Kasperkey software if there was the slightest hint that they were colluding with the Russian state. As it would be for all of the American companies who obviously are compromised by the NSA. You jokers are all as bad as each other. Trump is a cretin.
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I don't trust any AV vendor, or any government for that matter. I'm less worried about Russia getting my info than a branch of the US government getting my data. It's low risk in either case, but Russians are less likely to be interested in me than the US. This is most definitely not the case with sensitive US government computers.
Moreover, there has been more than the slightest hint that Kaspersky has to collude with the Russian government, and it hasn't crashed yet.
Re:Muh Russian Hackers (Score:5, Informative)
Only Americans have rights to anything, due process included.
You are not correct in this assertion.
Only rights guaranteed to "the people" are exclusively applicable to American citizens.
Rights guaranteed to "persons" belong to everyone.
To make it clearer, would it be legal to hold a slave if that slave is not an American citizen?
LK
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>would it be legal to hold a slave if that slave is not an American citizen?
Only if they have a safeword.
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The more accurate statement is that rights only apply to entities within the jurisdiction of the United States. Kaspersky, being wholly Russian owned, does not qualify as a US entity, and since the company is not located in the United States, it is not under US jurisdiction.
It need not be a "US entity", merely a legal entity that's present in the US.
Incidentally, it would be legal for a non-US person to hold a non-US person as a slave outside of the United States.
So... You're taking the time to explain that US law only applies to places under the jurisdiction of the US. Yes, we all know this. The discussion was about what the US government is doing, within the jurisdiction of the USA.
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I very much doubt this, there will be trade agreements that US is obliged to keep. I don't know if it applies in this instance, but zero obligation doesn't seen feasible.
If it was the case the other countries could for example break US copyright or vice versa, since there is 0 obligation to do so why do it.
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Corporations are government constructs, they aren't things save for a government calling them a thing and giving them some degree of personhood.
Corporate personhood is the purpose of incorporation. Without corporate personhood, Eugene Kaspersky would just be a guy selling a product and then, as a person, Eugene Kaspersky would have the rights that belong to "persons" when operating under the jurisdiction of the USA.
LK
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In this matter, it doesn't matter if he's foreign or not. No one has the right to have their product bought by the government. I don't see any way for him to win this, outside of judicial activism. What he has the right to is due process of law and he has that because he's a person.
I didn't say that corporations have the rights of "people", they have the rights of "persons". In every day speech, there is no difference but in the context of the constitution, there is.
Personhood is what allows a corporation t
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You're just a retarded piece of shit, that's all. Muh Russian hackers were a very real influence in the 2016 election cycle and time is not going to be kind to your ignorant, vatnik comments here.
You went full retard, never go full retard. The Russians put a grand total of a few thousand dollars into Facebook advertising which didn't even get many views - they were probably just studying memes like everyone else. Meanwhile Hillary had backing from dozens of foreign state actors, AND she actually sold Uranium to the Russians, which is worse than anything anyone has even accused Trump of.
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Selling Uranium is bad? To a nation that we have a reciprocal nuclear decommission treaty with? We sell nuclear materials to each other all the time. Selling Uranium to Russia is no worse than selling anything else to Russia. We both have nuclear stockpiles. We aren't empowering them by selling any more fissile material to them.
Stop trolling. You are making yourself look dumb.
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He's not a shill, you're a partisan hack. The uranium deal was a normal business deal that had to be approved by six people, including Secretary Clinton. It was non-controversial at the time. The Clintons did not accept money for the sale, the Secretary had only part of the deal, and Russia has plenty of uranium available to convert to plutonium-239 anyway.
Got any actual evidence for anything you wrote there?
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Actually, I'm not a shill. I annoy people for free.
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A shill is someone paid to do something. As I said, I annoy people for free.
You might want to look at the Constitutional definition of treason, which doesn't support your claim. Of course, since you pay no attention to the facts, I suppose this is a vain hope.
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Actually, Ollie North wasn't in it for personal gain, and I don't think the arms were actually WMDs.
At the time, Russia wasn't an adversarial nation. The US was trying to engage Russia in a friendly manner in the hope of avoiding too much hostility. It didn't work, but that doesn't retcon Russia in to an enemy. The deal was selling stock in a uranium company, not selling ur
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There were stories of a donation to the Clinton Foundation that were alleged to be connected to her agreeing with five other government officials that it was OK to go ahead with the sale. The Clinton Foundation is a bona fide charitable organization, so I don't see where the profit would come in.
Selling a company in another nation 20% share in a Canadian company doesn't violate our best interests, and that's what she and the others approved. She didn't approve any transfer of uranium to Russia. If Rus
Re:sold Uranium to the Russians, (Score:1)
No you idiot, she did not. She, like all of the other cabinet members, approved the sale of a Canadian company who owned uranium mining rights in the US to a Russian one. No Uranium actually left US soil... Hillary Clinton did not go dig it up and mail it to Russia and get a big fat check.
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Actually, she wasn't even involved with the process as related by the person on the committee [factcheck.org]:
The Clinton campaign told the Times that generally these matters did not reach the secretary's level, so she may not have been involved at all. According to the Times, Jose Fernandez, a former assistant secretary of state, represented the department on the committee. He told the Times: "Mrs. Clinton never intervened with me
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Actually, she wasn't even involved with the process as related by the person on the committee [factcheck.org]:
A) The Clintons and Soros control that fact check website you linked, you literally cited propaganda.
B) The Clintons received over 100m in their personal accounts for that sale, but sure, it was "unrelated."
C) You're a shill.
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Meanwhile Hillary had backing from dozens of foreign state actors, AND she actually sold Uranium to the Russians, which is worse than anything anyone has even accused Trump of.
Oh, FFS. How many times does this have to be explained? The US Government (at least 7 different agencies, not simply SecState) approved the sale of 30% of a Canadian uranium mining company to Rosatom. No uranium is being shipped from the mines to Russia. The only result of the deal is that Rosatom makes some money from the mining operations. You Trumptards just can't seem to get your facts straight.
Re: Muh Russian Hackers (Score:2)
And then Hillary conveniently got several millions in a âoedonationâ from the same Russians that just bought the mine.
If you control the mine, you can control who gets the product. The fact that the entire administration cooperated should indicate something to you.
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If you control the mine, you can control who gets the product. The fact that the entire administration cooperated should indicate something to you.
Not in the case of uranium. Uranium is a critical national resource, and by treaty with Canada cannot be sent anywhere but the US.
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Not if the mine is surrounded by another country's police, customs officers & border control agents.
Perhaps they smuggle it out in the internal mail - hide a couple of pounds between the secret santa list and the football club newsletter?
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Another poster already pointed to an article that Uranium One was able to export US uranium by piggy-backing on another export license soon after the Russians started controlling it. Just because CNN says they didn't know or it didn't happen doesn't make it true.
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Doesn't disprove my point. The police, boseder agents etc. could have stopped it if they'd wanted to and been competent.
Re: Muh Russian Hackers (Score:2)