Vaccines May Soon Be Mandatory For Children In France (theverge.com) 253
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: Last week, the French Health Ministry announced plans to make 11 vaccines mandatory for young children by 2018. French law currently mandates three vaccines -- diphtheria, tetanus, and polio -- for children under the age of two. The government's proposal would expand that list to include eight other vaccines -- including those against Hepatitis B, whooping cough, and measles -- that were previously only recommended. The proposal, which is to be presented to lawmakers by the end of this year, comes amid an ongoing measles outbreak across Europe, which the World Health Organization (WHO) attributed to low immunization rates. Italy passed a similar decree in May, requiring children to receive 10 vaccines as a condition for school enrollment. Germany, while stopping short of a mandate, has moved to tighten its laws on child immunization. But some experts question whether a vaccination mandate will sway public opinion in France, where distrust in vaccines has risen alarmingly in recent years. In a survey published last year, 41 percent of respondents in France disagreed with the statement that vaccines are safe -- the highest rate of distrust among the 67 countries that were surveyed, and more than three times higher than the global average.
Great! A controlled trial! (Score:5, Interesting)
This is really good news for the research community. Full coverage ill mean amazing gains in learning not only how diseases propogate, but also the effect of scheduling, and the real risks involved with vaccinating. This could be a big nail in the lid of the anti-vax movement. Not to mention that France's children will be saved from a lot of nasty diseases.
Re:Great! A controlled trial! (Score:5, Insightful)
This could be a big nail in the lid of the anti-vax movement.
They're as immune to facts as the anti-evolution movement.
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They're as immune to facts as the anti-evolution movement.
That's modded as flamebait? Hilarious. As much as I try not to laugh at creationists *snicker*, at least admit you believe in it because it's in your Holy Book and it is right and so everything else is wrong. Oh wait now I get it, you're not against facts it's in the Bible so it is fact. I forget how fact and fiction works for religious people, my bad.
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No theist says this.
You couldn't be more wrong. Source: raised in the Midwest.
Re:Great! A controlled trial! (Score:4, Insightful)
People in the Midwest say that if Quantum Mechanics or anything else isn't mentioned in the bible, it is wrong?
Some people in the Midwest literally do. I've heard them. I grew up around them. They'd say that QM is something "those silly scientists invented because the truth that God did it that way is too much for them to bear".
Since I live there as well, tell me where go to see this curious specimen.
Pick the evangelical church of your choice - Baptist, Assemblies of God, Mt. Trailerpark Half Gospel - and go in. Sit and be enlightened.
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Some people in the Midwest literally do. I've heard them. I grew up around them. They'd say that QM is something "those silly scientists invented because the truth that God did it that way is too much for them to bear".
Name 3 such people making such retarded statements to or around you.
People in the midwest are no dumber than people on the coasts. As someone living on the west coast, I'd have to say that people on the coasts are dumber, but they wallow in their ignorance and consider themselves "educated" and "informed". At least people in the midwest have horse sense.
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I've got lots of family there and think nothing bad of the Midwest. I'm proud of my background. And I certainly don't think they're "dumber than people on the coasts". But what they are is a hell of a lot more religious on average, and strong religious beliefs can trump intelligence any day of the week. That doesn't mean (and I never said) that all Midwesterners think that way. However, 64% of white evangelical protestants [pewforum.org] believe that "humans have existed in their present form since the beginning of time."
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I'd return the question of goalpost shifting, but at this point I'm not even sure what your goalpost is.
Ah well, we have a process for that. 78% of my demographic know your issue will resolve itself.
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You said "no theist says this". I gave personal experience and supporting numbers that at least some do, so I think we're done here.
Ah well, we have a process for that. 78% of my demographic know your issue will resolve itself.
You keep saying this but I have no idea what you mean.
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No, they're not.
I'm right, they're wrong, I know it. It happens.
But intentionally base your existence on a vacuously fuzzy "people disagree" and thus eject from any possible value to your existence.
As noted repeatedly, you're automatically taken care of.
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No, you have demonstrated in no way that any theist says "anything else" not in the bible is untrue. That is the claim at hand.
But yes, we're done here. Let's see what happens when we both just wait.
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I think you're moving the goalposts a little. The original quote was:
because it's in your Holy Book and it is right and so everything else is wrong
which is something I've heard my entire life growing up: that the bible is the sole inerrant source of truth, and anything conflicting with the bible is inherently wrong. That's how we end up with BS like a young Earth, and people being anti-evolution because "that's now how the bible says it happened".
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Ah. But "everything else" does not mean "anything conflicting".
I'd put this down as sloppy terminology by the poster leading to this discussion, but given the surrounding textual context and stance, much more likely in my mind is that it was typical deliberate equivocation and disingenuousness.
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This could be a big nail in the lid of the anti-vax movement.
They're as immune to facts as the anti-evolution movement.
And some times the same.
This is a good place to point out that there is no liberal or conservative bias to anti-vaxxers. They seem to be pretty equally distributed toward the far end of each ideology.
The difference if any is their reason for being idiots.
Re: Great! A controlled trial! (Score:2)
There are more than enough countries where vaccination has been mandatory for decades. No more data is required, vaccinations work well and they are reasonably safe.
I'll tell you what's unsafe. (Score:5, Insightful)
Polio. Measles. Tuberculosis. Influenza. Rubella. Hepatitis. Smallpox.
Sadly, vaccines are a victim of their own success. Vaccines are indisputably the single most lifesaving medical development in the entire course of human history, more than surgery or anesthesia or pharmaceuticals. And perhaps it is the ultimate irony that it is only because they have worked so spectacularly well that humans, in their seemingly infinite capacity for stupidity, have somehow managed to grow to distrust them, because people in industrialized nations have almost entirely forgotten what it was like to live in a time when these diseases were not only common, but pervasive in the general population. Entire communities were decimated by polio. People have forgotten the death and the panic and the fear of these diseases.
The present situation is the result of a failure to educate. Every single child, as soon as they are able to comprehend, must be taught of the history of these pandemics. Not just a recitation of statistics; people need to be SHOWN IN GRAPHIC DETAIL what these diseases did to humanity throughout history.
People built museums to remind ourselves of the Holocaust; of the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge. Yet, for the most part, we do not educate younger generations about the horrific scope of deaths these diseases have wrought on society. Why is that? Is it really only because we care when people die at the hands of despots? Dead is dead. A virus doesn't care who you are.
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Mumps, Tetanus, Pertussis, Pneumococcus, tick-borne encephalitis, Diphteria ...
But they're all natural. Dying naturally can't be that bad, right?
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When did this anti-vaccine thing start in the West? Cause if you are looking for statistics and clean experiments - in the former communists states vaccination was obligatory. And we did learn at school about those horrific epidemics from the past. As an individual this "issues" was settled in my mind around age of 13.
A bit tangential perhaps but isn't it strange somehow that so many things in our lives that we thought we left in the past [e.g. theocracy, slavery, racial hatred] are rearing their ugly heads
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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That's the modern resurgence of anti-vaccine hysteria. Really, it's been around as long as vaccines have.
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Yes ... it seems like too many people really like their crippling diseases (like Polio) and dying in more or less agonizing ways (Tetanus).
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Polio. Measles. Tuberculosis. Influenza. Rubella. Hepatitis. Smallpox.
Sadly, vaccines are a victim of their own success. Vaccines are indisputably the single most lifesaving medical development in the entire course of human history, more than surgery or anesthesia or pharmaceuticals. And perhaps it is the ultimate irony that it is only because they have worked so spectacularly well that humans, in their seemingly infinite capacity for stupidity, have somehow managed to grow to distrust them, because people in industrialized nations have almost entirely forgotten what it was like to live in a time when these diseases were not only common, but pervasive in the general population. Entire communities were decimated by polio. People have forgotten the death and the panic and the fear of these diseases.
The present situation is the result of a failure to educate. Every single child, as soon as they are able to comprehend, must be taught of the history of these pandemics. Not just a recitation of statistics; people need to be SHOWN IN GRAPHIC DETAIL what these diseases did to humanity throughout history.
People built museums to remind ourselves of the Holocaust; of the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge. Yet, for the most part, we do not educate younger generations about the horrific scope of deaths these diseases have wrought on society. Why is that? Is it really only because we care when people die at the hands of despots? Dead is dead. A virus doesn't care who you are.
The influenza vaccine is largely useless.
Indisputably? I'll dispute. The "single most lifesaving medical development in the entire course of human history" would be fire or sewers.
That's not what "irony" means. Something that is unexpected is not ironic. Irony is the use of words to express something other than their literal intention. Such as calling a fat man "slim".
I don't even have time to schlep through the rest.
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And perhaps it is the ultimate irony that it is only because they have worked so spectacularly well that humans, in their seemingly infinite capacity for stupidity, have somehow managed to grow to distrust them, because people in industrialized nations have almost entirely forgotten what it was like to live in a time when these diseases were not only common, but pervasive in the general population. Entire communities were decimated by polio. People have forgotten the death and the panic and the fear of these diseases.
The present situation is the result of a failure to educate. Every single child, as soon as they are able to comprehend, must be taught of the history of these pandemics. Not just a recitation of statistics; people need to be SHOWN IN GRAPHIC DETAIL what these diseases did to humanity throughout history.
Or maybe the people who are always screaming wolf are being recognized for what they are. When I talk to my older relatives who were around before Measles vaccinations it seems like it was something everyone got and nobody died from it. It sounds as bad as Chicken Pox is. But of course today's children are taught to be afraid of Chicken Pox. It causes death and destruction everywhere it goes and vaccination for it is an absolute must. Never mind the fact that parents used to take their kids to the Pox parti
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Perhaps it is a testament to the human will to survive that none of the diseases I cited did not result in the decimation of our species. But our collective continued existence, whether one regards it as an uplifting affirmation of our ingenuity or a blight on our planet's biosphere, was not the point of my post. It is about the simple fact that the principle of vaccination as a public health technology and policy is lifesaving on a massive scale, and in turn, contributes in the most profound way possible
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Chicken pox is not a concern for children. No one had a vaccine for it when I was a kid and everyone caught it and it was sort of normal. Chicken pox is mostly a concern for adults where the symptoms are much worse.
When people mention vaccines and how they help children, it's about the SERIOUS diseases! Ie, measles can be fatal. Bringing up the minor stuff just puts you into the anti-vaxx hysteria camp.
Just because you don't know any kids who died of chicken pox doesn't mean it is super rare.
https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox... [cdc.gov]
"Chickenpox used to be very common in the United States. In the early 1990s, an average of 4 million people got varicella, 10,500 to 13,000 were hospitalized (range, 8,000 to 18,000), and 100 to 150 died each year. In the 1990s, the highest rate of varicella was reported in preschool-aged children.
Chickenpox vaccine became available in the United States in 1995. In 2014, 91% of childre
eh (Score:3)
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Children don't have bodily integrity, the choices are already made for them by someone else. I've always been fond of the idea that parents refusing vaccination should be immediately deemed unfit to make medical decisions for their children, leaving the decisions in the hands of someone less incompetent.
Re:eh (Score:4, Interesting)
What makes vaccines tricky is that they're preventative and aren't addressing any immediate medical concern. So the question now becomes, do parents have a right to deny preventative care to their children that is designed to prevent conditions that are, in most cases, not life-threatening? Also possibly the question of whether there is any credible reason to opt out of specific vaccinations. In my case, with my first child, we opted not to vaccinate him for Hepatitis B until he was about to enter school. Reasoning: HepB is primarily transmitted by shared needles and sex, not likely modes of transmission for a toddler, and I'd read a peer-reviewed study [nih.gov] showing an elevated risk of childhood asthma in children who received the HepB vaccination as infants. Both my wife and I already have asthma, so our children already have an elevated risk due to heredity.
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In Europe children have human rights, and those rights include things like the right to an education and the right to basic healthcare. Parents can't override those rights, they can't decide to not educate their children or deny them the same basic medical care that is available to all other children.
As such, children may have a right to vaccines. Different EU countries have interpreted that right in different ways... I think you can still opt your kids out in the UK, but you might end up in court trying to
What does "ssfe mean" (Score:2)
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There is no evidence that "the weak" are being saved by the vacines in preference to those "more fit". The risk of death due these types of infections are largely luck based - "fit" kid might be having a bad week and croak, while "weakling" kid might make it through. And for the most part, most people don't die from these illnesses, only a few percent, so it probably would have little effect on breeding rates, but has huge effects on medical costs and family pain and suffering.
Evolutionary pressures cannot
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There is no evidence that "the weak" are being saved by the vacines in preference to those "more fit". The risk of death due these types of infections are largely luck based - "fit" kid might be having a bad week and croak, while "weakling" kid might make it through.
But overall, more people with weak immune systems die than those with strong immune systems. That's enough for evolution to select against weaker immune systems.
And for the most part, most people don't die from these illnesses, only a few percent
That's a good thing. Enough deaths to give the survivors' genetic material an advantage, but fewer deaths than fertility can make up for. The culling rate should be high enough that survival cannot be taken for granted, but low enough to be compensated for by reproduction. That helps keep the herd healthy.
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How many generations are we talking here? We are less than fifty generations since the dark ages, a 1% difference in survival rates due to lack of imunization is totally drowned out by other effects of technology. Opposing vaccination based on this (even if it wasn't completly bogus for any number of other reasons) makes less sense than opposing space research because some people are afraid of the colours they paint the rockets.
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How many generations are we talking here? We are less than fifty generations since the dark ages, a 1% difference in survival rates due to lack of imunization is totally drowned out by other effects of technology.
A 1% difference, compounded through, 50 generations, amounts to 40%. But it's not that bad, thankfully, due to some with bad resistance dying from other causes, or just don't have children, and because some groups avoid exo-relationships (i.e. having children outside close knit groups), which slows down gene propagation. But most of all, unless it's a Y chromosome gene, there's a chance of not inheriting the gene if only one of your parents have it.
Around 12-16% is a more realistic propagation number if 1
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But there is no evidence that people who survive unvacinated are a significantly differnt population than those who survive because of vacination. Vacinations do not allow bad genes to propagate, as it isn't people with "marginal imune systems" who benifit - all benifit. Any "unfit" people are not being selected FOR they are just not being as strongly selected AGAINST. There is little evolutionary selection operating over fifty generations for genes that provide marginal breeding advantage or disadvantage.
O
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If you want to look at it in this way, isn't all medicine against evolutionary pressure?
No, not all. Just medicine that saves someone enough to allow them to breed viable offspring when they otherwise wouldn't have.
Some medicine is evolutionary pressure, like strong pain killers and drugs reducing cognitive abilities. Evolution may respond by selecting for bodies that are more immune to the effects, or employ alternative signalling, or in ways I can't even think of, but with the result being they do get the warning signals despite the pain killers, or do retain more conscious thought. Cause
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If you want to look at it in this way, isn't all medicine against evolutionary pressure?
I would say that all medicine is just another evolutionary pressure. Individuals and groups that make use of medicines are "competing" against each other as well as those that don't make use of medicines. Similar to the use of knives, fire, and sub-machine-guns. If "sickly" people with technology out-breed "fit" people without technolgy, evolution doesn't care, it still brands the breeders as "winners" and ignores the fate of the not-successful-breeders.
An orgnaism's environment is always shaped by the beha
Dead babies (Score:5, Informative)
When the anti-vaccine hysteria was peaking about 15 years ago, the consensus was that it would last until a bunch of children all died from a preventable disease. 35 dead in the current outbreak - we get mandatory vaccines.It's sucks to be right sometimes.
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Until generational memory is erased and we end up with another group of people who haven't seen the destructive effects of these diseases firsthand.
Good (Score:2)
Vaccination should be compulsory unless there is an medical reason not to. And parents who do not vaccinate should be charged with anything from child endangerment all the way up to involuntary manslaughter.
Good for France. (Score:2)
New moderation feature (Score:2)
I'd really *really* like to be able to mod someone IGNORANT.
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Not saying I disagree with you, mind... just pointing out why it may be that it was only with regards to children.
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You got it somewhat backward.
The viruses spread fast, becuause people/children are densky packed.
Not because they are children or not adults.
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The spell checker on iOS/Safari on my iPad often does not work.
I'm sorry for that.
And rereading my post does not work, as I don't see spelling mistakes.
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In quite a few cases it can be easier to produce a vaccine for a child than for an adult - children's medicine is quite different from adult medicine, some treatments which are very effective in a child can be useless in an adult, which is why paediatrics is a major speciality all on its own, it has to be!
Re:Why not adults? (Score:5, Informative)
For fucks sake, did you actually read my post *at all*?!
Yes, vaccines *work* in the same way - I didn't say they don't. What I did say is that in quite a few cases it can be easier to produce a vaccine for a child than for an adult - and it is, in quite a few cases you can't simply use the child vaccine in an adult, it simply won't work due to the immunological response the adult body will have. There is a reason why Chicken Pox is a *serious* illness in adulthood that can cause death but not really considered a fatal illness for children - because children's bodies work differently! Which is why the shingles vaccination has to be done very carefully for older patients (its a much higher concentration than children are given for chicken pox).
Vaccinating adults is entirely possible, but what can be effective for a child isn't necessarily so for an adult - and in any case, vaccinating in an underdeveloped immune system will always produce better long term results than vaccinating in a developed immune system. That is why we target kids - for both the immediate benefit and for the long term benefits.
My wife (a doctor) is currently laughing her head off at your post...
Take a look at how Tdap vaccine is given based on age - the adult vaccine is formulated differently with a lesser quantity of antigens than the child vaccine, because the vaccine in adults can trigger swelling of the arm its given in, while that doesn't occur in children. Other vaccines require significantly more active ingredient in the adult vaccine because of the immunological response - but increasing the concentration means the formulation of preservative etc has to also change...
There are many many ways in which the age contributes to the vaccine given. Doesn't mean the process of vaccination works differently, but it does mean that the same treatments may be ineffective in an adult, requiring a different vaccine to be developed.
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...vaccinating in an underdeveloped immune system will always produce better long term results than vaccinating in a developed immune system.
Is that universally true, though? I don't remember the specifics, but not long ago I heard about a booster vaccine to BCG (Bacillus Calmetteâ"Guerin, for TB) that failed its efficacy trials because it didn't work in children, although it does work for adults.
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For fucks sake, did you actually read my post *at all*?!
Yes, vaccines *work* in the same way - I didn't say they don't. What I did say is that in quite a few cases it can be easier to produce a vaccine for a child than for an adult - and it is, in quite a few cases you can't simply use the child vaccine in an adult, it simply won't work due to the immunological response the adult body will have. There is a reason why Chicken Pox is a *serious* illness in adulthood that can cause death but not really considered a fatal illness for children - because children's bodies work differently! Which is why the shingles vaccination has to be done very carefully for older patients (its a much higher concentration than children are given for chicken pox).
Vaccinating adults is entirely possible, but what can be effective for a child isn't necessarily so for an adult - and in any case, vaccinating in an underdeveloped immune system will always produce better long term results than vaccinating in a developed immune system. That is why we target kids - for both the immediate benefit and for the long term benefits.
My wife (a doctor) is currently laughing her head off at your post...
Take a look at how Tdap vaccine is given based on age - the adult vaccine is formulated differently with a lesser quantity of antigens than the child vaccine, because the vaccine in adults can trigger swelling of the arm its given in, while that doesn't occur in children. Other vaccines require significantly more active ingredient in the adult vaccine because of the immunological response - but increasing the concentration means the formulation of preservative etc has to also change...
There are many many ways in which the age contributes to the vaccine given. Doesn't mean the process of vaccination works differently, but it does mean that the same treatments may be ineffective in an adult, requiring a different vaccine to be developed.
Is it that simply, adults weigh more than children, that's why their dose is larger.
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I was raised in a time when everyone of my age had all those deseases we have vaccines for now.
However people around age 20 - 30'are much younger, I actually wonder, too, how they fare. Especially as some of those 'child hood deseases' can be extremely dangerous for pregnant women or their fruit.
Re:Why not adults? (Score:4, Insightful)
But why not adults too?
Children have underdeveloped immune systems and are the least hygienic humans so this makes them most vulnerable and likely to spread disease. It's worth noting that the elderly are also highly encouraged to get annual flu vaccines because they have failing immune systems and it's far more likely to kill them and the elderly people around them.
That said, it's wise for everyone to get vaccinated against that which they are most vulnerable too and most likely to contract (i.e, the seasonal flu)
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It's worth noting that the elderly are also highly encouraged to get annual flu vaccines because they have failing immune systems and it's far more likely to kill them and the elderly people around them.
If your immune system is failing then a vaccine isn't going to help you. Why not? Because a vaccine works by "priming the pump" on your immune system. It causes your immune system to create antibodies to the disease. A non-working immune system won't create those antibodies.
No, the reason elderly are encouraged to get vaccinated against flu is because their OTHER systems are less resilient to the effects of a major illness, not because their immune system is failing. For example, if you've lost lung effici
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Re:Why not adults? (Score:5, Interesting)
My (standard set of )vaccines are up to date, and then some. Still working on getting a few (that are considered 'optional' by our lovely US insurance companies...price of a vaccine is in the hundreds, price of a hospital stay is in the tens of thousands, yet which option do they seem to promote?), some of them will be tricky to get since they aren't available in this country yet (Hepatitis E, etc.), and others you seem to need to know the secret handshake to get (Bubonic Plague, possibly Smallpox).
On the bright side, I've been vaccinated against things like: Hepatitis A &B (as I said, completely caught up), Rabies, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Japanese Encephalitis, Human Papillomavirus (HPV), Tetanus, Diphtheria...
The Cholera vaccine, Vaxchora, seems to be a bit of a disappointment, as its potency drops off in months (may be useful for a short trip, but for those of us who want to get at least a year of decent immunity out of it...no). There's another, Dukoral, which appears to improve in immunity over time, so I might go for that, but there's a question of whether it will be easily available.
And then there's the Anthrax vaccine, which Passport Health offers to the general public, which I have on my list of things to get. Multiple shots, I grant you, and realistically, like The Plague (Black Death), chances are you are a goner if you inhale the spores, as opposed to drink something laced with them or touch something covered in them, but some immunity can be better than none.
The Hepatitis E vaccine is made available via the Chinese, but I believe Mexico (and some other Central American countries) may have it available, so it might be worth picking up while on vacation.
The US military has a vaccine for the Adenovirus, through a singular supplier, though I am not sure how to get access to that. Same with The Plague (Bubonic Plague, The Black Death) as the vaccines for these are still being produced, but the manufacturer isn't listed (from what little I've glanced), and nobody is offering it (i.e. you can't walk into a travel clinic and ask for it, nor is it something that you can ask your family doctor to order for you...).
Additional diseases that we have vaccines for, but are not available to the general public in this country (this is not a complete list): Tick-Borne Encephalitis, Q Fever, Dengue Fever, Tuberculosis, Smallpox.
There are also many vaccines being developed, such as the vaccine for Malaria, Zika, etc.
I like vaccines too, but I think you go overboard (Score:3)
Unless you travel overseas a lot? You're simply not likely to encounter yellow fever.
Rabies is so rare that, unless you are a veterinarian or do certain types of health work, you're much more likely to get struck by lightning. You can get immunized successfully after exposure.
Smallpox has been eradicated.
I thought I was borderline crazy for getting immunized for Hep A, but wow, you take it a long way.
What everyone really needs though, are the old standards, especially pertussis. I know someone that died
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"Rabies is so rare that, unless you are a veterinarian or do certain types of health work, you're much more likely to get struck by lightning. You can get immunized successfully after exposure."
Here's the problem with that approach: by the time the symptoms surface, you are as good as dead. And getting immunized after exposure is great if you know you have been bitten by a rabid animal (hence the focus on capturing animals that have bitten animals, and testing them for Rabies...), but if you are bitten in y
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Right, I got the Hep B immunization too, but in retrospect, like the Hep A immunization, my risk is so low I don't think I really needed it. Non-standard for me, but one I took anyway, was the chickenpox immunization. I think I could use a booster now. I am also considering taking one of the pneumonia vaccines.
Re: rabies: 1-2 rabies deaths per year in the USA. Lightning: 50-ish deaths per year. That's a low enough risk I won't bother with the shot. And have you heard of the girl who survived rabies
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Not trying to outrun Death. There may have been a few cases where I've turned around, and given him a hug. That's not what this is about. This is about removing unnecessary suffering, cruelty, and pain; it's about the false dichotomy that keeps so many people prisoners in their homelands, or open to easily preventable diseases.
For an average US citizen to go out and see the world, and go beyond the tourist spots, how many different vaccines are needed? You want to go hiking in that forest, or possibly have
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My health plan is Kaiser Permanente, and every time I visit I get a list of upcoming vaccine dates and such. Since they're both a medical provider and medical plan, they have a vested interest in keeping customers healthy so that they can keep more of their money. They're also very good at signing patients up to classes, like how to manage asthma, diabetes, what to do if you're having a baby, and so forth.
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But why not adults too? There are more vaccinated adults than children
Honestly.... I don't know or remember all of what I was ever vaccinated against, Or how long each vaccine lasts.
It's not like you get an annual ticket reminding you what your vaccines are or when they expire.
I had lots of vaccines as a kid/teenager, and even if I know exactly what clinics I visited as a kid... it is doubtful there would be
any record kept for more than a few years.
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But why not adults too? There are more vaccinated adults than children
Honestly.... I don't know or remember all of what I was ever vaccinated against, Or how long each vaccine lasts.
It's not like you get an annual ticket reminding you what your vaccines are or when they expire.
Every state I have been in has a little yellow booklet they give you to keep track of vaccinations - I think my wife has one with some sort of internation logo on it (WHO?). You are supposed to keep track in that booklet and keep it with your "important papers".
I just had a friend who might be the first case of diphtheria in the country this year. If you haven't had a DTP booster shot in the last ten years, maybe it is worth while doing so. Tetanus still kills a few people in the US every year.
http://apps.w [who.int]
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Bang for the buck. Children are the most at risk for these things because their immune systems are less established, they are less fastidious and they're more likely to get in contact with a given pathogen because children are packed together in the hundreds every day. It's also a much smaller demographic and easier to track.
Doing the adults too would obviously be a good thing, but it's a much greater (and costly) task.
Not to mention that most current adults *are* already vaccinated, because *their* paren
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All these measures to encourage (or enforce) vaccines in children are great.
But why not adults too? There are more vaccinated adults than children (most vaccinations lose effectiveness after a period of time).
Well there is one simple reason, Adults dont need them.
1. Immune systems in children are still developing, this puts them at risks of diseases and illnesses that would not affect an adult.
2. Adults already carry natural immunities to childhood diseases, often by surviving it. Immunisation simply reduced this by introducing the antibodies before the disease was contracted.
3. The majority of adults are already immunised. Most of our childhood immunisations were introduced well over 40 years ago, the anti
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Good point. Either way, it's good herd management, to keep the tax cows [youtube.com] healthy.
I've been on Slashdot for a while, so I know a bit about cows (MOOOOO).
As far as I know, paying taxes is not one of the things that cows do.
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It would be irresponsible of me to future generations to get vaccinated. If everyone lives to breeding age even with weak immune systems, then weak immune systems will become common in future generation,
I think you are trying for humor here, but consider this. Mandating vaccinations of children will be an effective selection mechanism against anyone seriously allergic to those vaccinations. As children, this will remove them from the gene pool prior to reproduction, removing the genetic tendency to allergy.
This is a good thing for society as a whole, even if it isn't so good for individuals. But then, that's the whole purpose of vaccination and the concept of "herd immunity".
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OMG OMG they're trying to kill children!
I wish. It's much worse, they're saving children.
Reducing evolutionary pressure to near zero is not a good thing for the human genome.
Re:Pearl clutch! Pearl clutch! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yeah that autism is caused by vaccines is an already debunked myth mostly spread by the anti vacc crowd. It is more or less proven that Autism is a genetic disorder in the meanwhile children die by the dozens every year in some european countries by measles outbreaks because their shithole parents refused to vaccinate them. Just as a reminder measles were almost extinct in europe in the 80s and 80s due to rigorous vaccination. Now we have a serious outbreak somewhere in Europe every year.
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Yeah that autism is caused by vaccines is an already debunked myth mostly spread by the anti vacc crowd.
We as a society need to start dragging members of the Anti Vacc crowd who spread that message into the civil and criminal courts
and lock them up and jail and have successful lawsuits against these people on charges for gross misconduct in spreading unproven claims or proven disinformation claimed to be truth causing the thousands of lost lives and millions or billions of $$$ in harm.
Yes, they
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Re:Pearl clutch! Pearl clutch! (Score:5, Interesting)
Brain damage can cause autism symptoms in persons with no genetic disposition towards autism.
Oh, and measles can cause encephalitis, which can leave permanent damage, which can result in autism-like symptoms.
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No, autism is not caused by anything. You are born with it (or well, you even have it before you are born). It's likely genetics, causing the brain to be wired differently (literally).
Yes and no. Embryonic development can be affected by a number of things. Whether or not that leads to a person with what is called autism is not clear.
One thing is for certain. Vaccines do not cause autism. The vaccine/autism connection has been well debunked as a moneymaking scheme, and those people still making the accusation are right up there with flat-earthers and moon landing deniers.
Certainly the common plastic component Bisphenol A has turned out to be a problem. Whether though it's estroge
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Vitamin D deficiency has been linked with autism. It would not surprise me if we find other things that are not genetically linked to autism as well. Autism has only been recognized relatively recently so the body of research on the underlying causes are not going to be completely understood.
The mistrust of vaccines is people filling in their ignorance of science or government with conspiracies on anyone or anything that they don't like or understand. This mistrust seems to coming from people who reall
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Its definitely genetic. My father-in-law had 13 children. The second generation children for some of them are autistic. And its from the girl's side only.
So, we see it from one family, since it was more than just coincidence. How many others noted the same situation? Wives, more than spouses were the ones bringing that genetic difference to the newborns.
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Is autism a single disease? It's very much an "SEP" to me ("someone else's problem"), but from the range of symptoms described, and the range of severity in those symptoms, I'd be very surprised if it is one single cause and effect situation.
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Bullshit.
Autism can be caused by inflammation and toxins, aspects of the modern world.
Genetics is less of a cause, we know, because there was much much less of it 100 years ago.
And no, detection is not much better.
OMG YOU GUISE! GLUTEN CAUSES AUTISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Until you've had to raise a vaccine injured autistic child, do not tell me about the safety or effectiveness of modern vaccines.
Until you've become a GP and worked for doctors without borders in 3rd world countries ravaged by disease, don't tell me about your unfounded dangers of vaccination.
I hope one day irrational mothers that lash out and blame anything they can on a serious disorder, causing many millions in funding to be redirected to ill-informed studies finally understand that we don't know everything about autism, but focusing on vaccine as the cause only damages everyone.
Re:Pearl clutch! Pearl clutch! (Score:4, Interesting)
Clean water and not living in filth are certainly important components of healthy living, but are nowhere near the only components.
Remember the Measles outbreak at Disney Land? That occurred in the United States, which has some of the best sanitation and cleanest water on the planet. It occurred because of anti-vax parents who think that life-saving medication is a bad thing.
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Clean water and not living in filth are certainly important components of healthy living, but are nowhere near the only components.
Remember the Measles outbreak at Disney Land? That occurred in the United States, which has some of the best sanitation and cleanest water on the planet. It occurred because of anti-vax parents who think that life-saving medication is a bad thing.
Our public school has a requirement for proof of vaccination. If your kid's not vaccinated for measles, whooping cought, polio, and hepatitis, they can't be admitted to school. Your choice--vaccinated against the list, or do home-study. I actually think it's the provincial school ministries that impose that rule.
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Clean water and not living in filth are certainly important components of healthy living, but are nowhere near the only components.
Remember the Measles outbreak at Disney Land? That occurred in the United States, which has some of the best sanitation and cleanest water on the planet. It occurred because of anti-vax parents who think that life-saving medication is a bad thing.
You are talking about the outbreak where only 45% of the people were un-vaccinated. That is a good example of why the vaccines don't work. It was most likely someone vaccinated that still carries and transmits the disease that caused the outbreak. Look at the outbreaks in China where you have a 99.999% vaccination rate. Pack Immunity is a theory that has not been proven to even be a real thing.
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Ah-h-h-h, yessss, tell it to them my friend.
Truly yours,
Mr. Smallpox
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How about a child, who is now 16 years old, that has autism due to the MMR vaccine? Yes, you read that right. I'll write it again for all you deniers AUTISM CAUSED BY THE MMR VACCINE at age 18 months. Until you've had to raise a vaccine injured autistic child, do not tell me about the safety or effectiveness of modern vaccines. I hope someday vaccine injury will be fully understood. Until that day, do not force this issue. Some of us are willing to go to war and will.
Should be mod down "-1 Troll" since the poster claims facts that are not proven by science nor does the poster present valid links to actual scientific reports (not the fake reports created by the anti-vacsers out there).
That doesn't make it a troll, or even false. It makes it unsourced and potentially unsupported.
Not everything you disagree with is a troll, is racist/sexist/etc., or needs to be censored.
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Much potential for a dark comedy.
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You are mostly correct. I'd even guess that you would have been modded up if you hadn't included "And don't dare fucking criticize the piece of fucking shit that is Linux.".
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Look, I know my other post got modded down.
But this is the ultimate "nanny state" move.
Nominally motivated (according to the article, which the moderators apparently did not read) by the recent measles outbreak, the move is intended to protect the population at large, rather than the individuals being vaccinated.
If you understand the mechanism for herd immunity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Then you understand that the minimum R0 for Pertussis ("whooping cough") and Measles is 12, and in modern strains,
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So, 35 people died from disease. How many died from injecting toxic chemical cocktails together with viruses? No, right, keep forgetting; we're not allowed to do research on that.
There is a lot or research of the effectiveness and dangers of all of the vacines we are talking about. Heck the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services even has a website for tracking reactions in the US: https://vaers.hhs.gov/ [hhs.gov]
Of course, if you believe that everyone in the industry and the HHS is "in on it" then there probably isn't much I could do to help convince you. It does seem like people working in "big pharma" as well as for the HHS seem to believe their own "propaganda" since they seem to hav