Former Disney IT Worker's Complaint To Congress: How Can You Allow This? (computerworld.com) 605
dcblogs writes: At a congressional hearing Thursday on the H-1B visa's impact on high-skilled workers, the first person to testify was Leo Perrero, a former Disney IT worker. He was overcome with emotion for parts of it, pausing to gather himself as he told the story of how he was replaced by a foreign visa holder. Perrero wondered how he would tell his family that "I would soon be living on unemployment." He paused. The hearing room was still as the audience waited for him to continue."Later that same day I remember very clearly going to the local church pumpkin sale and having to tell the kids that we could not buy any because my job was going over to a foreign worker," he said. But a person who made a case for access to foreign workers was Mark O'Neill, the CTO of Jackthreads, an online retailer. He argued that there is a need for more skilled workers. Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill, and "senior positions command compensation that meets or exceeds even that of United States Senators."
Congress answers (Score:5, Informative)
Campaign donations. Lots and lots of campaign donations.
Re: Congress answers (Score:3, Interesting)
It makes no sense especially when you have kids struggling to pay their student loans. Corporations do not want to pay a liveable wage. That girl who wrote the yelp flame bait this past week is spot on. Corporations will hire you for pennies on the dollar.
Most CEOs aren't worth even that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Today, most CEOs take actions to get immediate profits while hurting the company long term. They bail out of the plane after they alight it on fire, and enjoy their golden parachutes. They then move onto another firm and repeat the process.
Re: Congress answers (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously. Fuck this particular guy for assisting DisneyCorp in its DMCA-abuse environment. Fritz Hollings was known as "the Senator from Disney" for a reason - they buy the best laws they can afford. Live by the sword, die by the sword, dude. Now at least there will be fewer Americans assisting Disney in its attacks on America.
Re: (Score:2)
"Hey, I can't get any Jackthreads, either, you entitled little gripers."
Re:Congress answers (Score:5, Informative)
The tens of millions that Disney spends on political donations, lobbying and superPACs net them a nice little benefit:
Investment (Score:5, Insightful)
Invest in Americans and quit acting the victim.
Re:Investment (Score:5, Insightful)
huh? (Score:3, Informative)
You think Gates et.al are fighting for "education" in schools? If so, think again. Common Core was brought to you by Gates Foundation truckloads of cash. You can start there. Once you have a good grasp, really look at the code.org "education" and see what it does.
Re: huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
Funny how they aren't fighting to bring the cost down of C level execs in the same way
Re:Investment (Score:5, Interesting)
The real irony is that while one side pushes for the government to do the educating, the other pushes for the government to get out of education and privatize that 'industry'. To make it worse a lot of talent exists that just doesn't dot the i's and cross the t's the HR people or those who decide who gets hired wants.
Where I live (in PA) there are to many people looking for to few IT jobs. Yet even so, we aren't just competing against people from here... Local colleges, universities, and trade schools have scaled up their Comp Sci/CIS/MIS programs due to 'demand'. But the number of jobs for you after getting a degree has remained low locally. Those who can afford to leave, go elsewhere. Those that don't become unemployed or underemployed and compete for the small number of positions in the field that exist locally. Having recently gone back to finish my degree I saw people just graduating who have moved to every state in the union. Anyone who stayed can't find a job.
Even in what most people would call 'the middle of nowhere' all the larger companies (GE transportation division for instance which is the largest company in my region) hire out nearly all their internal IT to foreign workers. The example I just used tosses away apps that don't have bachelor's degrees or higher and even a bachelor's is a bare minimum. Does maintaining a small server environment require indepth knowledge of data structures or programming? No. The place uses MS products and doesn't locally do any software coding. Sure a degree shows you could work through the crap of school for 4 years or so, but most university or college programs are complete overkill for basic IT positions and don't teach the more practical things they will need on the job anyways. Then most 'require' skills that would be impossible to get outside of an industry that utilizes a particular piece of software or hardware (since no one is buying a server and a $200k piece of software to learn it for a $40k/year job). Worse are the ones that require knowledge of a product built internally at another segment of the company. In other words a job that requires skills impossible to get outside of the company for entry level employment. This is a glowing red sign saying 'We train people outside this country on our software, please don't bother applying'. After all if you already have training in that software, you worked for them already and why would you move from one job within to a different entry level one?
As if those two things weren't enough a third issue is that most companies need IT, but hate it. They see it as not bringing anything to the company and so minimize it (nearly insuring it doesn't do anything to useful for the company). Often thousands of machines with little to no automation. Primitive tools and equipment below what's required to even maintain the existing infrastructure. Business people making IT decisions with no reasonable expectations of the requirements. This is why we all hear stories about those '5 million dollar boondoggles' where consultants and outsourced companies were called in and the money seemed to all get wasted away. Hell most companies don't even trust their IT people. And really often they shouldn't. I've seen way to many cases where even the good guys are treated like shit, payed almost nothing, and expected to regularly perform miracles without ever even being appreciated. Given the treatment even good people can be tempted because they come to resent those they work for.
Oh and lastly my own personal favorite... I turn 38 years old this year. I now regularly get asked 'Why are you still in IT?' And have to explain that I actually like the problem solving and adaptation that is at the heart of IT. Or even more how I can apply for positions above 'network adminsitrator' all day, but business people don't take me seriously so I can't be 'executive material' and of course with more small companies around than large ones there are few jobs between 'network admin' and 'C** level employee'. While still being called a 'network admin' I did the duties of a Chief Information Officer. I developed budgets, set long term goals and policies, interacted with other 'C** level' employees, sat on directorial meetings, directed the other IT workers, etc. But they never treated me as an equal and they certainly never called me that. In fact since we had dealings with the state, the state referred to me as the 'Director of IT' once and my bosses came down on me as if I prompted them to call me that in what was obviously a form letter regarding adjustments to our IT interactions. But none of that 'counts' as the experience my local companies want to move into 'management proper' and I like the hands on aspects of IT still.
I find it hard to imagine a more hostile and competitive working environment with so little to offer these days. I'd love to move, but I don't have the money to. I come from a family that made $50k/year on two incomes who are now retiring and so will soon make a lot less. I never married, so I don't have any other person to help out in a new location. I don't have anyone else I know well enough that they would effectively let me live with them while I try to get a job somewhere. Oh and since I went back to school to meet the ever higher demands on entry in my field I have no personal savings left. I never even made all that much to begin with to be able to save. That job where I worked as a CIO without the title? $34k/year. Not even enough to buy a house on my own in the area and barely enough to rent a place on my own. Anyways...
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Investment (Score:5, Interesting)
Education costs have far outpaced both inflation and the value add thanks to government subsidies that get hoovered up by the universities. In Germany, a university education is free, even for foreigners. The higher taxes graduates who get good jobs will more than make up for the cost to the taxpayers. Those good jobs exist because graduates, not being bogged down by 6-figure debts, can actually spend money that goes into the economy, rather than just paying back their student debts until they're on social security, or even longer.
Crazy student debt has created a generation that gets out of school so far in debt that their earnings don't prime the economy and create a virtuous circle of spending to create jobs.
Let's go to extremes - imagine if you had to go into debt for your primary and secondary education. Many wouldn't go, and those that did would be financially strapped, with whatever income they made going back to basic survival and debt repayments.
I'm just glad that my eyesight forced me out of programming, because it's now the pit from hell, a dead end trap, for the vast majority, and one that "more education" in the same field will never solve.
Re:Investment (Score:4, Informative)
Totally agree. All I can do is add some supporting citations.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08... [nytimes.com]
Germany Backtracks on Tuition
By CHRISTOPHER F. SCHUETZE
Published: August 25, 2013
(German colleges are now free again, like the Scandinavian countries. Under the German constitution, the 16 state governments control finance and education. A 2005 federal court decision allowed them to charge tuition. 8 states, in former West Germany, did, but it was unpopular and they reversed their policy. Lower Saxony charged €1,000 ($1,300)/year. An economist estimated that tuition caused 20,000 potential students (6.8% of all students) to forgo enrollment in 2007. Denmark, Norway and Sweden have free tuition, although Germany, with 2.5 million students, is the largest. Britain raised its tuition caps to £9,000 ($14,000). In France, most public universities charge a few hundred euros per year, though the grandes écoles are more expensive.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/... [washingtonpost.com]
7 countries where Americans can study at universities, in English, for free (or almost free)
By Rick Noack
October 29 2014
Since 1985, U.S. college costs have surged by about 500 percent, and tuition fees keep rising. In Germany, they've done the opposite.
The country's universities have been tuition-free since the beginning of October, when Lower Saxony became the last state to scrap the fees. Tuition rates were always low in Germany, but now the German government fully funds the education of its citizens -- and even of foreigners.
Explaining the change, Dorothee Stapelfeldt, a senator in the northern city of Hamburg, said tuition fees "discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up study. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany."
What might interest potential university students in the United States is that Germany offers some programs in English -- and it's not the only country. Let's take a look at the surprising -- and very cheap -- alternatives to pricey American college degrees.
Germany's higher education landscape primarily consists of internationally well-ranked public universities, some of which receive special funding because the government deems them "excellent institutions." What's more, Americans can earn a German undergraduate or graduate degree without speaking a word of German and without having to pay a single dollar of tuition fees: About 900 undergraduate or graduate degrees are offered exclusively in English, with courses ranging from engineering to social sciences. For some German degrees, you don't even have to formally apply.
In fact, the German government would be happy if you decided to make use of its higher education system. The vast degree offerings in English are intended to prepare German students to communicate in a foreign language, but also to attract foreign students, because the country needs more skilled workers.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazi... [bbc.com]
How US students get a university degree for free in Germany
By Franz Strasser BBC News, Germany
3 June 2015
While the cost of college education in the US has reached record highs, Germany has abandoned tuition fees altogether for German and international students alike. An increasing number of Americans are taking advantage and saving tens of thousands of dollars to get their degrees.
More than 4,600 US students are fully enrolled at Germany universities, an increase of 20% over three years. At the same time, the total student debt in the US has reached $1.3 trillion (£850 billion).
(Hunter Bliss, South Carolina.)
Each semester, Hunter pays a fee of €111 ($120) to the Technical University of Munich (TUM), one of the most highly regarded universities in Europe, to get his degree in physics.
Included in that fee is a public transportation ticket that enables Hunter to travel freely around Munich.
Health insurance for students in Germany is €80 ($87) a month, much less than what Amy would have had to pay in the US to add him to her plan.
To cover rent, mandatory health insurance and other expenses, Hunter's mother sends him between $6,000-7,000 each year.
At his nearest school back home, the University of South Carolina, that amount would not have covered the tuition fees. Even with scholarships, that would have totalled about $10,000 a year. Housing, books and living expenses would make that number much higher.
Research shows that the system is working, says Sebastian Fohrbeck of DAAD, and that 50% of foreign students stay in Germany.
"Even if people don't pay tuition fees, if only 40% stay for five years and pay taxes we recover the cost for the tuition and for the study places so that works out well."
http://www.politifact.com/flor... [politifact.com]
Was college once free in United States, as Bernie Sanders says?
By Amy Sherman
February 9, 2016
Mostly true.
"Making public colleges and universities tuition-free, that exists in countries all over the world, used to exist in the United States."
— Bernie Sanders on Thursday, February 4th, 2016 in a Democratic debate in New Hampshire
We obtained the 2015 report from OECD that showed the number of countries with no tuition as of 2013-14: Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Norway, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Sweden and Turkey.
Germany also now has free tuition at public universities, although students pay some fees.
Re: (Score:3)
With the high cost of education now, I could see this becoming the norm for the future- reasonably capable people getting on the job training to fit the unique needs of a business.
Also, Mr. O'Neil, businesses like Caterpillar are doing just that, and their trainees are also commanding high salaries. I find it suspect that you can't procure talent except abroad. If there is such a dearth of talent here, perhaps you should relocate your business to where the talent is.
Capital is fluid, labor is not. This is a
Re:Investment (Score:4, Insightful)
Spot on.
The real problem besides simple corporate greed and sociopathic behavior is the whole outsourcing mentality and the culture of instant gratification. Most developers simply aren't great. That's perfectly normal and, for most things, perfectly fine. The problem is when most of these idiot executives and managers are trying to hire one, they've dug themselves so far in a hole that they need someone great to save whatever it is--and finding that person is difficult. Always has been, and always will be.
Enter outsourcing, where I can hire someone that somebody else says is great, and if (more likely, when) it's proven that the greatness was, pardon the pun, greatly exaggerated, then I either live with it and blame the other company or I try to make a legal claim out of it. In either case what I've done is kick the failure down the road, hopefully for someone else to deal with.
Enter India: a country full of people who are as good at and as bad at things as anybody else but which has come to symbolize the whole IT outsourcing movement because of some not so great traits: "helping" in school, cheating, and outright lying on resumes is absolutely rampant there. I don't know if it's a total culture thing, but from experience and with very few exceptions it seems to be an Indian IT culture thing to say one is awesome at anything and never admit you don't know something. American IT people who have talent see right through it, which is why all the anti-India remarks regarding programming, tech support, etc. American managers don't always see right through that because it's relatively easy to bullshit a bullshit artist for some reason . This kind of behavior will of course catch up with them and unfortunately probably hurt a lot of truly talented people. The notion, though, that somebody from halfway around the world is the only possible solution to a technical problem is in 9 out of 10 instances utter crap designed to deflate salaries, which is the fraud that is H1-B visas and everything like them.
Re: (Score:2)
They could start those internship programs in highschool for students that showed interest. Getting hands on experience while taking courses at the local union^H^Hversity. And once they're done with their appren^H^H^H^H^H^H "internship" they can join together with each other and present a single front to the corporation to fight for rights. Maybe even pool their money for when they don't have a job. Brilliant idea.
Low to midlevel IT work doesn't need a college degree. It's a 21st century trade at this point
Re: (Score:2)
If Mr O'Neill and the rest of these corporate leaders were actually so desperate for qualified tech people, perhaps they could consider starting extensive intern programs.
Perhaps colleges should start turning out people who are qualified to participate in extensive intern programs. Perhaps they could change the ABET accreditation standards for computer science programs back from being "outcome based", and instead actually teach people how to code again. There are maybe two handfuls of universities in the U.S. who have programs that are actually worthwhile, and most of those programs are legacy hold-overs bas on what used to be taught in the early to mid 1980's, and not all
Re: Investment (Score:3)
Something Doesn't Add Up (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't disagree with the idea that there may be a requirement for H1B visas to fill positions where there are not enough skilled workers, but something doesn't add up when you bring in H1Bs to replace existing workers. You can't claim there aren't enough and displace the ones you have. That's like saying, "I only have 1 gallon of water, so I need to go get another gallon. But, I'm going to dump out my first gallon when I do." If there really is a shortage, the H1Bs should be added along side the existing employees. If there is a need to remove one of the two, there wasn't really the shortage that was claimed.
If A and B are members of the workforce and A isn't enough, you need A+B not B instead of A. If you are bringing in the workforce of B because you can use the H1B process and the individual's resident only because of employment status to keep their salary lower, you are abusing the purpose of the H1B process and the requests should be denied for violating the reason. In fact, one would think such actions are really a case of filing false federal paperwork to get the H1B applicants.
Re: Something Doesn't Add Up (Score:2)
Can an advantage be created? Lobby.
Right, but since greed can never be eliminated from the human condition, we must work to reject the power that creates the opportunity for these unjust advantages. It's succeeded several times in human history, whilst eradicating greed (and its partner corruption) has always failed.
Wrong retard! (Score:3, Informative)
You are not describing "capitalism" or "capitalist". Good grief go read the fucking books! The reason Capitalism works is because it's balanced on all ends. Workers work for what they get, business owners sell for what they can get, and consumers pay what they consider to be a fair price. For a good amount of US History we had Capitalism, or at least operated very close to those ideas.
When the Businesses dictate everything the system is closer to the old and failed mercantilism which Capitalism replaced
Supply and Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the free market at work. If these jobs keep paying better and better, more and more people will get the training to go into the field and balance it out. But that's not happening because...
I teach computer information science at a college. We have a hard time recruiting students into the program because they pretty much all say they don't want to spend years learning how to be a programmer when all of the jobs are being replaced by foreigners or outsourced overseas.
Re:Supply and Demand (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Supply and Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you ask me, the problem is the entire H1-B Visa program."
I suggest rather that the problem is the system which allows corporate interests to buy and control lawmakers who arrange things such as the H1-B program.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
So your definition of a free market is a market where a company is restricted from hireling the best person for the job?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They are supposed to exhaust local hires before hiring an import. That is how imports are supposed to drive down salaries and satisfy need. Actually, they are just to satisfy need. Lowering salaries is irrelevant.
You are not supposed to fire people and replace them with imports. That is supposed to be illegal (you are even supposed to advertise locally in a paper to show you tried.) Firing someone local ain't exactly trying hard.
Re: (Score:3)
Let's say that the whole system was scrapped and anyone anywhere in the world was eligible to be hired.
Now consider the cost of living. The reason why $7000 a year is a respectable salary in India is because they consider a refrigerator to be a luxury option. Not a double-french door, 2 bottom compartment water-and-icemaker model with iPad in the door - just a basic fridge-and-freezer combo with manual ice trays will do.
Replace the central A/C with a fan. Expect the electricity to go out at intervals. Kiss
Re: (Score:2)
Despite Disney's actions, the future looks really bright for tech workers. For example, the Bureau of Labor Statistics says that for software developers, the job outlook is "much better than average." http://www.bls.gov/ooh/compute... [bls.gov]
If your children are interested in tech, you'll be hurting their futures if you try to steer them into other professions.
There might be some parts of the country, such as Detroit, where the job outlook isn't great. But in most places, technical professions are very much in de
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, you do typically have to live in or near a big city to get good tech jobs. Being from Texas, I know that the market for developers is hot in all of the major cities in this state. Home prices, the cost of living, and taxes are all low in Texas, even in the cities. Pay for programmers is good, well into six figures, and that pay goes a lot farther than it does in Silicon Valley. I'll grant you that commute times are often around one hour each way. But that's true with or without H1(b)s.
All this lea
Re: (Score:2)
At least we have nailed why childhood obesity is such a large iss
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
That is happening, it is just happening for Asians. The free market is providing jobs and training to the most needy. Indians need these jobs more so the free market is giving them to them. What you are looking for is some form of communism designed to protect a privileged class that gives jobs and resources not to the needy or skilled but to the upper classes.
So that's how market works? (Score:5, Insightful)
But a person who made a case for access to foreign workers was Mark O'Neill, the CTO of Jackthreads, an online retailer. He argued that there is a need for more skilled workers. Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill, and "senior positions command compensation that meets or exceeds even that of United States Senators."
So... scarcity equals higher price which is bad for business, except when it's business taking advantage of that scarcity. Would Mr. O'Neill complain to congress that we should allow foreign companies to build more Disney knockoffs, because Disney makes more money than some countries? I doubt it.
Re:So that's how market works? (Score:5, Insightful)
That meets or exceeds United States Senators (Score:5, Insightful)
Really ?, I have never been paid with a refrigerator full of money
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITI... [cnn.com]
Re:That meets or exceeds United States Senators (Score:5, Funny)
That was cold, hard cash.
math (Score:5, Insightful)
Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill
Sounds a lot less if you run the numbers! That is only a moderate increase of 5.2% annually, compared to 2.8%-2.9% you need to adjust the budget by on average (!) for all salary increases.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill
Sounds a lot less if you run the numbers! That is only a moderate increase of 5.2% annually, compared to 2.8%-2.9% you need to adjust the budget by on average (!) for all salary increases.
Good point, If you factor in productivity gains I would bet that it was actually negative.
Re:math (Score:5, Insightful)
And in at least some of those years, salaries for the folks at the top - like O'Neill - have risen more like 14%.
Re: math (Score:5, Funny)
The larger problem is a lack of well-trained CEOs. There are so few in this country with the experience capable of leading a corporation like Disney. That's why we need to expand the C3-O worker visa program. In 2009, Bob Iger's total compensation was $29M. Just six short years later, the company now has pay him $45M to keep him. That's an increase of 64% in that short span of time.
Without an influx of less expensive upper management from India, I fear the Disney Corporation will cease to exist. We need your help senator!
When they complain about the cost of IT wages, the above is all I hear.
Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Demand (Score:4, Insightful)
If there is a demand for more skilled workers, then why are companies replacing existing skilled labor with foreign workers on the H1-B visa program?
There are three aspects tot he answer to this question:
(1) Disney didn't actually replace the workers with H1-B workers; they replaced an internal department with an outsourced department consisting onf a third party company, which happens to have a lot of H1-B workers.
(2) In many cases, the labor being replaced is not actually all that skilled. The U.S. education system isn't what it used to be, and the graduates aren't what they used to be, back when they were getting through their degree programs on academic scholarships, rather than student loans. A lot of this has to do with the U.S. workers having experience, but not degrees, since they were in many cases sniped out of degree programs by companies in the .bomb era who needed cubicle warmers to prove to their VCs that they were hitting their hiring targets. Now we have an non-degreed generation, which gets us to the third part.
(3) A lot of these people are greying. That's a kind way of saying that they are expensive, compared to new graduates. Usually, that's couched as "culture fit", but what it really means is that CEOs tend to prefer people younger than themselves be working for them, because it's cheaper, and in many cases, you can hire better quality: they may have gone through a crappy degree program, but at least they didn't leave a crappy degree program after two years to become a cubicle warmer for some company that later tanked, going down with all hands.
So in combo, that pretty much covers why they want H1-B's, and why the outsourcing companies are able to do for Disney what Disney wants done, cheaper than an in house IT department would be able to do it.
Re: (Score:3)
But by driving down costs to companies by wiping out units of qualified US workers for foreign workers, where is the incentive for a US student to invest money & time into a position which will only be filled by "cheaper" foreign worker?
Well, obviously, if you got a "full ride" academic scholarship, you aren't investing money, only time.
But yes, if you export middle-classness to Hyderabad, you must, of necessity of the balance of trade, import poverty into the U.S., given that many of these positions are actually not in the U.S. for the particular contractors involved. A lot of them come over on an H-3, get the training, and then go back home and do the job remotely. The U.S. does not currently have a visa waiver program covering India,
Easy to fix (Score:5, Insightful)
If they don't want to follow the laws then just refuse to enforce the intellectual monopoly laws. Let's see how they like having all of their characters enter the public domain.
Replacing an existing worker? (Score:4, Insightful)
How is this legal? It's my admittedly weak understanding of H1B law that it can only be used to fill a job position if there are no qualified domestic workers. It sounds very much like a case of Disney replacing a current employee with an H1B visa worker.
Re:Replacing an existing worker? (Score:4, Informative)
How is this legal? It's my admittedly weak understanding of H1B law that it can only be used to fill a job position if there are no qualified domestic workers. It sounds very much like a case of Disney replacing a current employee with an H1B visa worker.
Disney is not hiring H1-B's to replace their existing IT people; they are outsourcing the jobs that used to be handled by their in-house IT department to another company. That other company happens to have a bunch of H1-B workers, because they are well known for having a lot of H1-B workers, and because all of the U.S. talent that they would have potentially hired to do outsourced work for various companies was locked up in companies like Disney.
It's really not that hard to understand.
Re: (Score:3)
Okay - So now that all that talent formerly "locked up" at Disney has entered the job market, the company to which Disney outsourced its IT department now has qualified domestic workers available and no longer has any excuse to hire H1Bs.
It's really not that hard to understand.
"We need more skilled workers" (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't believe the bullshit logic.
"We're firing US workers and hiring H1B workers because we need more skilled workers and competition is fierce."
Uh. WHAT?
If they need MORE skilled workers, and the pool of US workers is too small, HIRE FROM THE H1B POOL AND KEEP YOUR EXISTING WORKERS!
But, again, we know this isn't truly about a dearth of talent in the worker pool.
It's actually about a race to the bottom for salaries and the money saved by paying pennies on the dollar to the equivalent of an IT sweat shop. Economizing US workers out of their livelihoods.
And it needs to stop...
Re: (Score:2)
Does anyone believe him? (Score:5, Insightful)
Mr. Jackthreads says that he pays senior developers $200k. Does anyone actually believe him? In Switzerland, where IT jobs are hard to fill, a good salary for a senior developer might reach at $150k. It's probably about the same in Silicon Valley - and in both cases, that's because the cost of living is pretty high. I want to see his accounts, because I don't believe he pays any of his developers that kind of salary. He's lying, and no one had the guts to call him on it.
Re: (Score:2)
I do believe him. Salaries in Silicon Valley are ridiculous, probably because the cost of living is just as ridiculous. ... I know multiple people that make more than that.
Actually for the location, $200k/year for a senior developer is on the low side if you include health care, stock options, end of year bonus,
Re: (Score:2)
If he has such problems he should move his operation to where things are simply cheaper. Where I live in PA he could higher a senior developer for less than half of that and that developer could not only afford to own their own home, they could live in a gated community for $100k/year.
Re: Does anyone believe him? (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, he's not lying. Top developers do make over $200k in SV because they are worth it. There are lot's of professions that pay better and require far less talent, such as being a senator, a salesperson, a real estate agent, a recruiter, a lawyer, or a dentist.
When do we start the H1-B program to replace our over-paid senators? It should be funny to see senator Weiner train his replacement.
Re: (Score:2)
There's a shortage of developers *at prices he wants to pay*. (Translation - he can get developers elsewhere for cheaper and is happy to dump local grown for imports. And then, makes up stories to create the false impression there is scarcity here.)
Re:Does anyone believe him? (Score:5, Interesting)
In Silicon Valley it's not uncommon for someone straight out of college to start at 100-110k these days. One of my friends is working -remotely- (while living in the middle of nowhere, so cost of living is super low) for a west coast company as a Sr Engineer and makes 200k~.
I'm on the east coast and while my title is one notch above Sr, I'm still just your every day software engineer, and I make about 230k. I'm not leading a team. I'm not architecting anything large. I used to, and I'm qualified to, but right now I don't.
The market for qualified software engineers is -brutal-, because you need software engineers to do ANYTHING, and the market is getting flooded by "I didn't finish highschool but I went into a bootcamp so I'm awesome at Rails" and "I have an MIT degree so it means im good, right?" peanut gallery folks (even though I do know a lot of good engineers who went that route). Even paying in the 200k+ range, giving every benefits under the sun, giving people everything they want, the hardware they want, the software they want, the money they want, the projects they want, the location they want (including remote), it's STILL hard to find good people.
H1B is supposed to help with this. And the idea is good: if a position cannot be filled locally, get someone from abroad so we're not at a disadvantage. If it worked that way, it WOULD be perfect.
But it doesn't. I know a bunch of TN1s from Canada who are fantastic engineers, and are filling positions that would take forever to fill up, and are commanding 250k+ a year...and because they're not lucky at the H1B lottery, they're stuck with the TN1 leash, year after year.
During that time those subcontracting crooks are using up all of the H1Bs for bullshit that goes against the spirit of the program. And then we allow spouses of those H1Bs to work, so it takes up low skill positions (which the country has a huge shortage of), forcing people on food stamps. Its terrible.
Yes, there is a shortage of H1Bs for the companies that have genuine need for the system in the spirit it was meant for. The solution isn't to increase quotas though, its to make sure it's used the way its meant to be.
Inflation calculation (Score:5, Insightful)
50% rise in eight years? That's only 1.5^0.125 = 5.2%/year. That's less than the rise in college tuition [collegeboard.org]. For the extremes of the range, there is the ridiculously low CPI of 10% over eight years [bls.gov] and the ridiculously high ShadowStats.com of 100% over eight years [shadowstats.com] (view page source to see the hidden value). The geometric mean of those two extremes is sqrt(1.1*2.0)=48%.
Maybe 50% over eight years (5.2%/year) is in fact overstating actual inflation, but it's far from self-evident. By just stating the number and expecting people to be shocked, Mark O'Neill is, intentionally or not, advancing the wage-suppression-through-inflation scam.
Market Economy (Score:2)
If jackthreads can't afford to pay the market rates for someone who puts together the infrastructure that *runs their business* then perhaps they can't afford to be in business.
Perhaps Jack-ass-threads (sorry: I *had* to get it out of my system) O'neil should be lobbying congress to reduce the financial debt someone gets to be able to accumulate the education required. Then *more* people capable of doing what they want will be available and the market rate will change.
Instead they all continually argue to
At least it's in the open now (Score:2)
"Competition is so fierce for developers "that my developers' starting salaries have risen by 50% in the last eight years," said O'Neill, and "senior positions command compensation that meets or exceeds even that of United States Senators.""
At the pretense that it's the unavailability of skilled workers has been stripped away. It is, and always has been, about the money.
question to Mark O'Neill, the CTO of Jackthreads (Score:2)
Re:Unbridled capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, to be young and naive again. Do you think Hillary isn't owned by the corporations too?
Did you believe Obama would really bring "hope and change" too?
Re:Unbridled capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, to be young and naive again. Do you think Hillary isn't owned by the corporations too?
Did you believe Obama would really bring "hope and change" too?
Since the majority of the Mills seems to support Bernie, it's looking like young and naive aren't the insult it was.
Re: President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump is playing a simple role, just like you said, he's playing into what people said they wanted. But the people who want his ideology in power are driven by a crippling fear for the future. Rest assured, no good will come from a leader who plays on fear, rather than quells it.
Re: President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations (Score:2, Funny)
You are as clueless as most. STFU. He is a devout christian which is exactly the leadership we desperately need right now.
Re: (Score:3)
Devout? He's been married three times! What happened to 'til death do us part"?
If he's what you consider to be a devout Christian, it's no wonder he's happy morons are voting for him
Re: (Score:3)
Re: President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump is playing a simple role, just like you said, he's playing into what people said they wanted. But the people who want his ideology in power are driven by a crippling fear for the future. Rest assured, no good will come from a leader who plays on fear, rather than quells it.
Not really. They are mostly driven by the experience of being shafted by the politicians who have lied to them for the most of their lives. It's pay-back for what the Republican party has done to their dwindling supporters. It's the hens of dishonest politics, the political consultant class, and the media pundits coming home to roost.
Re: (Score:3)
Not really. They are mostly driven by the experience of being shafted by the politicians who have lied to them for the most of their lives.
Indeed. Trump gives the impression of being more honest, by being apparently straight talking and saying things that enough people feel are true, but are "politically incorrect", combined with his outright rudness. It feels and sounds like honesty, but it's a carefully cultivated act. He's just as dishonest as the rest of them but gives the impression of not being.
Re: (Score:3)
Not really. They are mostly driven by the experience of being shafted by the politicians who have lied to them for the most of their lives.
And maybe Republican voters are sick of the stupid pro-religious, anti-abortion, anti-gay message that somehow hijacked the conservative agenda. Conservatism means not getting tied up with religion, and not interfering in peoples medical or sexual lives. Trump seems to steer well clear of all of these distractions and is focussing on the real threats, globalisation and immigration.
Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:5, Insightful)
He says what he thinks.
Trump says what an uneducated idiot would say to his buddy in private company. He attacks detractors like a schoolyard bully with a foul mouth, and he is of zero substance.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Can we really afford to risk further devaluing international relations with a guy who might just say anything?
Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:5, Interesting)
Bernie is a political hack? I'm a conservative and not really a fan of Bernie's politics but I've always viewed him as one of the very few politicians in Washington with any sort of integrity at all. Frankly I would take him over Hillary any day despite her so called "centrist" policies. The former Senator from Goldman Sachs is hardly going to be a friend to the "people."
Re: (Score:3)
I don't really know anything about Sanders at all. It's not like I'll vote in this election and anyway, Trump occupies all the election news over here. It seems likely that Hilary will win, so I've not paid much attention beyond that.
Then he had a child out of wedlock.
So?
Desperate, he tried carpentry but could barely sink a nail. âoeHe was a shitty carpenter,â a friend told Politico Magazine. âoeHis carpentry was not going to support him, and didnâ(TM)t.â
So, he tried a job, wasn't
Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump is a bully who's core support comes from disenfranchised xenophobes.
The only thing you're missing there is the "and he's an evil far-right-extremist..." then you could turn around and be best buddies with the governments of Europe(Germany, Norway, England, etc), who also shout the same garbage at the opposition because they're not listening to the public. And successfully drive more people to the opposition with their insane rhetoric.
Trump says what an uneducated idiot would say to his buddy in private company. He attacks detractors like a schoolyard bully with a foul mouth, and he is of zero substance.
In other words, he's saying stuff that people outside the beltway, those outside of the ivory hall of academia say, and what Bob and Doug are saying around the watercooler. And that resonates with people who aren't you, people that you think are "xenophobes" because their values are different, and they have different viewpoints. And instead of wondering why they have different viewpoints, and why what he says is resonating you resort to just another form of bullying.
Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump is crazy, Putin is crazy, Clinton is ... who knows any more.
Over the last couple of years Putin has demonstrated that he's the most powerful man in the world. Maybe he's on to something. Having a crazy-like-a-fox leader has its benefits. At the very least, it makes the leaders on the other side very nervous because they somply can't predict what you're going to do. Clinton is VERY predictable.
If you can't have Sanders (and you can be sure the Dems won't allow that) then you're better off with Trump. Screw the H1Bs, don't ratify the TPP and TTIP free trade deals that are the perfect way for corporations to both avoid taxes and push a rush to the bottom wrt workers.
Re: (Score:3)
And do you think Putin the Powerful is any good for his people? With the international sanctions, the crash of the oil price and the tumbling Ruble, the Russian economy is going down the drain while Putin is playing power politics in the Ukraine and Syria, investing what little money he has left in tanks and submarines.
Once I thought Putin was an intelligent leader, but it is becoming more and more obvious that he is a backwards thinking narcissist and nationalist who is only concerned with his standing in
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The only thing you're missing there is the "and he's an evil far-right-extremist..."
He just announced that he wants to sue journalists who criticize him. He despises freedom of the press and has no problem with using the law to silence critics, which is a defining hallmark of fascists like Trump.
And that resonates with people who aren't you, people that you think are "xenophobes" because their values are different.
I am proud to call myself intolerant of fascist values. Not all "values" are equally valid, and I'm nauseated to see people like you stepping up to defend American fascism as if it's just a "different set of values". Trump is toxic to the values my nation was founded upon, and his supporters are as
Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:4, Interesting)
d. do the disenfranchised really believe that once elected, he'd be interested in helping them?
Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:5, Insightful)
Since every Presidential Candidate has lied to them since time immemorial, they might as well pick the lies they like the best.
Re:President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:4, Insightful)
Probably not. But they do know the other lying mother fuckers in the race aren't interested in helping them. The entire establishment that's been fucking them hates Trump so it's kind of an enemy of my enemy thing. If you've noticed, the more the elite in the Republican party band together against The Donald the more support he gathers. Yeah, Donald ain't all that but then they're pretty sure the other guys are going to keep on fucking them just like they have for the past few decades.
Re: (Score:2)
"and he is of zero substance"
Look around, and his supporters. Substance is lacking nationwide, it's not just a problem of presidential candidacy.
Not by a long shot. You can sell pretty and you can sell cheap a lot easier than you can sell substance.
Re: President Trump isn't "owned" by corporations. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Trump IS the corporations/ Or more to the point, represents the class that tell the corporations what to want so they can buy up politicians and give them their orders.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
We do not have Capitalism in the United States of America any longer
This is a common misconception due to not understanding all the terms involved. Capitalism refers to private ownership of production, which, yes we do still have in the US. What we have less and less of is free and efficient marketplace being replaced by increasingly regulated marketplace.
Re: (Score:2)
Corporations may be made up of "sheeple" (you lose 5 points for that), but they are not democracies. A corporation is not one person, one vote, it's one share, one vote (for voting shares). And shares are disproportionately held in the hands of the 1% and other corporations.
So while a dictator may not be the only way to keep a corporation from doing evil, the list of alternatives isn't all that long.
Re: Unbridled capitalism (Score:5, Informative)
Which has nothing to do with gun ownership. Every time people claim the folks in Switzerland, or even Israel, have guns coming out their ears which is why they have low murder rates shows their true lack of understanding those country's gun laws.
While this article [pri.org] is not the one I was looking for, you will note the heavy regulation of guns in Switzerland including how much ammunition one can buy and mandatory registration with the government, both of which the NRA howls over any time either subject is brought up.
Second, as the person in the story relates, the people of Switzerland own guns to protect their country as part of the militia, the exact same thing our Founding Fathers said in the Constitution. That people deny this prima facia fact is the result of deliberate twisting by certain groups, not the least of which the NRA who originally held to the Constitutional writing (to use a Scalia-ism).
Also, as to Israel, which some people bring up, this article [washingtonpost.com] explains one must have a reason to own a gun. Not that you want one, a valid reason AND you have go back every six months to justify you continuing to keep your gun.
If you want to point to Switzerland you had better tell the whole story. It's not as neat and simple as you and others make out. The government has a heavy hand in regulating firearms in the country, something which people like you fight against every time the subject is brought up.
In closing, I have no problem with anyone owning a gun. I've shot them in the past and have considered owning one but can't justify the cost even though I can easily afford one. Maybe some day.
But this nonsense that using Switzerland or Israel as examples of the notion "more guns = less crime" is shown to be false because of how their respective governments control guns. One might as well use Somalia where nearly everyone owns a gun yet there is crime in abundance.
Re: (Score:3)
the people of Switzerland own guns to protect their country as part of the militia, the exact same thing our Founding Fathers said in the Constitution.
Are you lying, or just parroting what someone told you? The Founding Fathers studied the failings of governments of the past, and identified private gun ownership a crucial tool for the preservation of freedom. They also saw centralized power as a threat, and sought to empower the states. Militias and private weapon ownership were both thought to be so important the right should be embodied in the Constitution that was already growing longer than desired. Some argued that they needed to spell it out or liar
Re: Unbridled capitalism (Score:4, Interesting)
The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence.
While further down Madison makes the case:
Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.
he is clearly stating that the people, i.e. the militia, will be subordinate to the powers of government in relation to opposing a standing army of the federal government. Those powers were already enumerated by Hamilton in Federalist Paper 29 in which he states the need for regular drills by the militia under the control of the government.
While these papers are not part of the writings of the delegates to the Constitution, that the men who wrote these papers had a hand in forming that Constitution and would most certainly have used similar arguments during its construction, it is clear their intended meaning was to have Americans armed for the defense of the country, as I stated, and which Switzerland employs.
Re: No new job? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
The problem is location. When you buy a house you become stuck in that area. You have kids and a partner who works you get stuck in a given area and moving becomes very very difficult. Even being single moving around for work is a pain in the ass. Make everywhere friends, find new things to do, live, supplies. Etc. not impossible but a pain.
With a family it isn't always possible to go where the jobs are. That is why the economy has taken so long to recover. The jobs are not where the people with skills
Re: No new job? (Score:5, Insightful)
He shouldn't *have* to make sacrifices. What Disney did is illegal. Blatantly so. The H1B program is not meant to be a way to lower costs for companies. It's so that companies can import workers *when no local workers exist to do the job, regardless of the cost*. There were workers available. Disney hired a shady outsourcing company. Black and white, open and shut. If Disney is not reprimanded for this, then our entire legal system and government needs to be torn down and rebuilt because we're so corrupt it cannot be fixed without bloodshed. I'm not saying I condone it, but we're already seeing attacks on government from people who think we are already there.
Re: It's a small world... (Score:2)
Five points to Slitherin.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's only fair. They're a bunch of Mouseketeers.