Mathematicians Study Effects of Gerrymandering On 2012 Election 413
HughPickens.com writes Gerrymandering is the practice of establishing a political advantage for a particular party by manipulating district boundaries to concentrate all your opponents' votes in a few districts while keeping your party's supporters as a majority in the remaining districts. For example, in North Carolina in 2012 Republicans ended up winning nine out of 13 congressional seats even though more North Carolinians voted for Democrats than Republicans statewide. Now Jessica Jones reports that researchers at Duke are studying the mathematical explanation for the discrepancy. Mathematicians Jonathan Mattingly and Christy Vaughn created a series of district maps using the same vote totals from 2012, but with different borders. Their work was governed by two principles of redistricting: a federal rule requires each district have roughly the same population and a state rule requires congressional districts to be compact. Using those principles as a guide, they created a mathematical algorithm to randomly redraw the boundaries of the state's 13 congressional districts. "We just used the actual vote counts from 2012 and just retabulated them under the different districtings," says Vaughn. "If someone voted for a particular candidate in the 2012 election and one of our redrawn maps assigned where they live to a new congressional district, we assumed that they would still vote for the same political party."
The results were startling. After re-running the election 100 times with a randomly drawn nonpartisan map each time, the average simulated election result was 7 or 8 U.S. House seats for the Democrats and 5 or 6 for Republicans. The maximum number of Republican seats that emerged from any of the simulations was eight. The actual outcome of the election — four Democratic representatives and nine Republicans – did not occur in any of the simulations. "If we really want our elections to reflect the will of the people, then I think we have to put in safeguards to protect our democracy so redistrictings don't end up so biased that they essentially fix the elections before they get started," says Mattingly. But North Carolina State Senator Bob Rucho is unimpressed. "I'm saying these maps aren't gerrymandered," says Rucho. "It was a matter of what the candidates actually was able to tell the voters and if the voters agreed with them. Why would you call that uncompetitive?"
The results were startling. After re-running the election 100 times with a randomly drawn nonpartisan map each time, the average simulated election result was 7 or 8 U.S. House seats for the Democrats and 5 or 6 for Republicans. The maximum number of Republican seats that emerged from any of the simulations was eight. The actual outcome of the election — four Democratic representatives and nine Republicans – did not occur in any of the simulations. "If we really want our elections to reflect the will of the people, then I think we have to put in safeguards to protect our democracy so redistrictings don't end up so biased that they essentially fix the elections before they get started," says Mattingly. But North Carolina State Senator Bob Rucho is unimpressed. "I'm saying these maps aren't gerrymandered," says Rucho. "It was a matter of what the candidates actually was able to tell the voters and if the voters agreed with them. Why would you call that uncompetitive?"
Federal law has an effect, too (Score:2, Insightful)
Did they take into account the Voting Rights Act provision that requires that minority voters be concentrated into districts that they have a good likelihood of winning? That alone has the effect of diluting minority strength elsewhere.
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Please quote that provision of the Voting Rights Act.
Re:Federal law has an effect, too (Score:5, Informative)
From Redrawing the Lines [redrawingthelines.org] (just a site I found with a quick Google search, no special reason to pick it other than it is what I found):
Are states permitted to create new majority- minority districts?
States are permitted and sometimes required to create new majority-minority districts under the Voting Rights Act to avoid diluting minority voting strength during redistricting. States with significant minority population growth over the course of the last decade, for instance, may need to create new majority-minority districts to ensure that redistricting plans comply with the requirements of Section 2 of the Act. Plans that dilute minority voting strength by failing to create feasible majority-minority districts may be quickly challenged following adoption. Since Section 2 litigation can be both costly and time- consuming, officials in many states set out to draw plans that fairly reflect minority voting strength at the beginning of the redistricting process. The need to comply with Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act to avoid minority vote dilution can serve as a compelling justification for both preserving and creating new majority-minority districts, which helps protect these districts from constitutional attack.
From Cornell University [cornell.edu], we have:
Vote Dilution
Section 2 of the VRA, codified at 42 U.S.C. 1973, prohibits drawing election districts in ways that improperly dilute minorities’ voting power. This prohibition applies to states, counties, cities, school districts, and any other governmental unit that holds elections. Two typical forms of vote dilution involve “cracking” a minority community between several election districts, and “submerging” minority communities in multi-member districts. Cracking occurs when election officials split a single minority community into enough different election districts that even if the community voted as a bloc, it could not influence any single districts’ elections. Alternately, election officials might dilute a minority community’s voting power by submerging it in a multi-member district with enough non-minority voters to routinely defeat the minority community’s chosen candidates. See Gerrymandering.
Personally, I find it all to be a bunch of bullcrap. Have you seen those voting districts that are along, squiggly lines that wander all over the place? Give me big squares, randomly generated with approval from a set of judges or something like that, and get the god damned legislators out of the district drawing business. I don't care who it "hurts" or "helps", it is ridiculous to have some of the districts that we do.
Bioregionalism (Score:2)
Personally, I find it all to be a bunch of bullcrap. Have you seen those voting districts that are along, squiggly lines that wander all over the place? Give me big squares, randomly generated with approval from a set of judges or something like that, and get the god damned legislators out of the district drawing business.
That's not the answer either. The answer is to tie them to geographical features which define "bioregions", sadly itself not a highly defined term. We can usually recognize 'em when we se 'em. All the people in a given bioregion have a natural confluence of interests, and arbitrary districting works against that.
Re:Federal law has an effect, too (Score:5, Informative)
Personally, I find it all to be a bunch of bullcrap. Have you seen those voting districts that are along, squiggly lines that wander all over the place?
Yeah, and you know what? One of the most famous ones is in North Carolina [wikipedia.org], the site of this study.
And guess who created it and why? Democrats did [state.mn.us], in order to secure a minority voting block big enough to elect a black person to Congress. Ever since, it's been one of the most litigated districts in the U.S.
I'm always shocked at how many people don't realize that this is one of the primary LEGAL rationales for gerrymandering -- back in the 1980s and 1990s you even saw unholy alliances between minority leaders and conservative Republicans conspiring to create awkward districts in some states that would give each group what they wanted: the minorities got enough people together in a district to elect a minority to Congress, and the Republicans got to excise many of those annoying mostly Democratic minority voters from their districts.
We are still living with that legacy in many states, and I frankly have found news coverage in recent years of gerrymandering to be lacking in discussion of this issue. It's not all just Republicans who have taken control of state legislatures -- we've also had a committed effort for quite a few decades to segregate voter districts in such a way that would allow more minorities in Congress.
But of course that creates a problem, because it ends up disenfranching non-minority Democrats who get stuck in all the surrounding districts that can no longer elect a Democrat because a large portion of Democrats were deliberately removed from swing districts to create the minority-majority district.
So the Democrats end up in a Catch-22. If they want to promote Congressional "diversity," they can create districts where minorities get elected, but they can end up screwing themselves over in the process because then all the surrounding districts become more Republican and make it more difficult for Democrats to actually achieve an overall Congressional majority.
It's certainly not the only issue that has led to Republican majorities in Congress -- but it's one that's not often talked about, and it has had some significant effects.
Re:Federal law has an effect, too (Score:4, Informative)
You ought to be shocked at the original purpose of those laws: Segregationist states in the former Confederacy were preventing blacks from registering to vote (which also kept them off juries), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] by methods including killing them if they tried to as late as 1963 vote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] In 2000, the Florida Secretary of State eliminated enough black voters from the voting rolls, by falsely accusing them of being felons, to give the vote, and the presidency, to George W. Bush. http://www.gregpalast.com/flor... [gregpalast.com] So black voters are denied the right to vote, in violation of the constitution, even today. That's the purpose of the picture ID laws.
Racism benefited the Democratic Party, while the Democratic Party was the party of racism. When the Democratic Party tried to reform itself, by giving constitutional rights to blacks, the Republican Party opportunistically took their place as the party of racism. Good for the Republicans, bad for America.
Re:Federal law has an effect, too (Score:5, Informative)
When did the Republican Party become the party of racism? Was it when they supplied the necessary votes to pass the Civil Rights Act by voting for it in higher percentages than the Democrats? Or was it when Richard Nixon implemented the "Southern Strategy" of actually enforcing the desegregation of schools, especially in the South?
According to John Dean, in a series of articles for FindlLaw about his experience in the Republican party, it happened when some win-at-any-cost Republican strategists decided that there was a large lower-class religious population in the South, who were already being manipulated by preachers, who could also be manipulated by Republicans.
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So, you are saying that, by desegregating the schools in the south, the Republican Party under Richard Nixon was demonstrating its racism?
John Dean, a Republican, was talking about the Republican Party after Nixon. Nixon's Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, was Pat Moynihan, a liberal.
Dean said that after the Democratic Party stopped supporting Southern racism, the Republican Party (after Nixon) adopted a strategy of taking their place, by appealing to white racist Southerners.
I can't find Dean's old articles on FindLaw, and Findlaw may have been deleted them after FindLaw changed its format, or Dean may have deleted them after he co
Re:Federal law has an effect, too (Score:4, Interesting)
Give me big squares, randomly generated with approval from a set of judges or something like that
California tried the non-paratisan judge trick. The leading party stacked the panel of judges to favor them.
Re:Federal law has an effect, too (Score:4, Informative)
They're only required to gerrymander minority districts if they have a history suppressing minority votes.
False. Legislators are required to draw districts in such a way that minority votes will NOT be diluted. Thus, if they are forced to redraw districts (say, due to new allocations of the number of representatives after a census), they are REQUIRED to take minority distribution into account and produce a new set of districts which will not negatively affect minority voters.
It has been easier for these issues to end up in the courts in places that have a history of suppressing minority votes -- but the restrictions are binding on all states, regardless of past wrongs.
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That part of the Voting Rights Act wasn't struck down.
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So? As long as the gerrymandering respects the law, Dems cannot be complaining about a system that on the whole has been benefitting them disproportionately for decades. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.
Re:Federal law has an effect, too (Score:5, Informative)
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Citation needed.
"I'm saying these maps aren't gerrymandered," (Score:2, Funny)
Ok well that settles it then!
"Why would you call that uncompetitive?" (Score:2)
When we had so many political consultants bidding for the contract to make those district maps?
Stop this stupid First past the Post system (Score:5, Insightful)
It would also be the end of the two party systems.
Re:Stop this stupid First past the Post system (Score:4, Insightful)
Start using a democratic system where every vote is equal, it's called Proportional Representation and works very well.
It would also be the end of the two party systems.
Personally I agree but the likelihood of it happening is very small. The chances of someone who has just won by the fisrt past the post system voting for a change is very low!
Re:Stop this stupid First past the Post system (Score:4, Insightful)
Not just a politician who won first past the post, but both major parties. Changing the voting system would require one or both of the major parties supporting the change. However, both parties know that they gain power in the current system. Yes, the Democrats lost this round of elections, but wait a few years and the Republicans will be kicked out and replaced by Democrats - who will be kicked out a few years later in favor of Republicans. Repeat ad infinitum.
Why would they support a change that would let some upstart third party gain enough power to unseat their power sharing arrangement? Or worse, allow a few third parties to arise and push Democrats and Republicans to the sidelines instead of sharing the spotlight?
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first past the post isn't what's doing that, not having instant runoff style ballots is.
Re:Stop this stupid First past the Post system (Score:5, Informative)
first past the post isn't what's doing that, not having instant runoff style ballots is.
Yes it is. With proportional voting a minor party with 15% in every district would get one candidate in a state of 11 districts like this case. In a two party system, aka first past the post, they would get none.
PR works well? Where? (Score:4, Interesting)
The great virtue of 'first past the post' is that it forces parties to appeal to a wider group than their obvious supporters; know nothing tea partiers mashed up with business advocates are lined up against a mixture of union placemen and minority activists. The process of coalesce has got to occur somewhere; the belief that it is best done in the spotlight of publicity of the floor of the legislature is somewhat unproven, at best. Certainly the collapse of both the Weimar Republic and the French 4th Republic are usually blamed on their use of PR; I remain to be convinced its the optimal solution.
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By contrast Belgium's record of 18 months without a government as a result of PR should be a warning to us all.
Those who hope for a reduction of government meddling in their affairs will see it as a sign of true hope: the sky didn't fall in, despite the fact that the politicians couldn't agree on the most basic thing of all. Throwing them all out of office and only then starting work on the replacement would in fact be just fine...
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The US is even better in that respect. If our federal government went out to lunch for 18 months (which might be a reduction for some of our Washington politicians...) we would still have 51 governments plus the territories.
Re:PR works well? Where? (Score:5, Insightful)
The great virtue of 'first past the post' is that it forces parties to appeal to a wider group than their obvious supporters...
I'm not sure that's necessarily true, but what FPTP does do is push everything towards a two-party state. This is why you get, effectively, extremists on both sides. Case in point: UK and USA. Minor parties are pushed out, moderate viewpoints are ignored. FPTP directly leads to "Us v. Them" contests.
In fact, thinking more about your first point: I don't think it's quite true. FPTP encourages parties to talk negatively about their opponents rather than push their own positive points.
Extremists have nowhere to go (Score:4, Interesting)
The pathological case of PR taken to its logical extent is Switzerland where the same parties have formed the government in the same proportions since forever. The voters have almost no impact on government policy, except via referendums which often go against government policy, which is not a healthy way to run a country because it means your representatives are not being representative.
Re:PR works well? Where? (Score:4, Informative)
It's typically during these periods we have the most stable system :)
The German tweak is a 5% minimum threshold to get into the parliament, only recognised minorities are exempted.
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Sometimes governments need to collapse sooner rather than later. Less dogs will be under the porch.
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The great virtue of 'first past the post' is that it forces parties to appeal to a wider group than their obvious supporters
With the increase of uncompetitive districts in the U.S., I think this is no longer the case. The real decision-making in many districts happens in the caucuses or primaries (depending on the state), not in the general election. And in those cases it's typically a narrow slice of grassroots party activists, jockeying with party establishment insiders and major donors, who select the ca
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> By contrast Belgium's record of 18 months without a government as a result of PR should be a warning to us all.
Does not really matter in Belgium. During absence of federal government, we still got - for 10e6 people country - more than six parliaments [www.pfwb.be], 3 regional governments [belgium.be] and 3 linguistic community [wikipedia.org] having a lot of power. Power is split in so many parts that losing one does not matter.
Not having a government during the peak of the economical crisis was actually good: nothing stupid done, debt stabili
Re:PR works well? Where? (Score:5, Informative)
Anecdotal evidence? Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands and more use proportional representation systems to some extent. Hardly unstable countries.
If I could design a voting process, I would use the condorcet method and proportional representation.
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A warning or an incentive?
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Start using a democratic system where every vote is equal, it's called Proportional Representation and works very well.
It would also be the end of the two party systems.
How preferential voting in Australia works .. in a nice, easy to read cartoon style where Dennis the Election Koala gives Ken the Voting Dingo an important lesson in civics! You Can’t ‘Waste Your Vote’! [chickennation.com]
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Start using a democratic system where every vote is equal, it's called Proportional Representation and works very well.
Thats fine for House elections, not so fine for Senate elections. The House represents the People but the Senate is supposed to represent the States. We should go back to appointing Senators rather than electing them.
Subdistrict data available? (Score:3, Insightful)
Is subdistrict voting data available, or did they just assume a uniform voting pattern across each current district? In the latter case, what they're doing is resampling which tends to average things out, so their result isn't surprising and their conclusion is invalid.
Don't hear that it's just the Republicans at this (Score:5, Insightful)
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I love comments like this. Tell me what is right wing about these positions:
nationalizing health care
right to abortion
paid college tuition
open borders/immigration amnesty
regulation of business, to a detrimental level
union empowerment
higher taxes on the rich
more social programs for the poor
These might not all be top line items for the US Democratic Party, but they are top line items for prominent members of the party, and solid planks in the party platform.
It seems that the only thing that can make a party l
Hint: Dems oppose most of that list (Score:3)
I love comments like these because they show how wingers have created an alternate reality for themselves where facts need not apply.
Tell me you've paid an iota of attention to what the Democrats have been doing for the last 30 years?
You mean far better care for far less money? Not only did Democrats take Single Payer off the table before negotiations began, top Democrats (Obama, Reid, Baucus, Pelsoi) kille
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I have no idea what you are talking about. I'd be perfectly happy with both main parties being dismantled under RICO statutes and their power going to the next 10 parties on various ballots. My sig isn't just for shits and giggles.
The caveat of "The Democrats are *slightly* less rightwing" doesn't begin to explain the policy differences between a left wing party and a right wing party.
The reason for my post above is that I have seen that argument made, that both parties are far right wing, just one is sligh
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If you want a recent Democrat example, just look at California [ca.gov]. In the 2014 House elections, Democrat candidates got 57.7% of the votes relative to Republicans (4.06m vs 2.98m). Yet they won 73.6% of the races
States too are districts (Score:2)
In federal elections, state borders can be considered as districts causing the same kinds of distortions.
It would take a pretty thorough rewrite of The Constitution of the USA to eliminate disproportionate weight of citizen votes.
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In federal elections, state borders can be considered as districts causing the same kinds of distortions.
Maybe, but the effects are less severe because state lines are enormously more difficult to change for short-term political advantage. State-level gerrymandering requires sustained visible policies that affect migration and/or birth rates over decades.
The senator is right (Score:4, Insightful)
He does politics for a living and has succeeded in a competitive domain, we should listen.
The issue is that Gerrymandered seats are safer, the elected official *is* communicating with voters, but the electorate he must worry most about is his own party in the primaries.
If you have a seat that is safe for one party then you get elected by activists of that party, not voters in general which leads to people getting elected from both parties who would never win on their own merits if they had to "communicate" with a more representative portion of the electorate.
They don't get re-elected by doing a good job, they get it by convincing activist members of their own party that they "represented our values".
They don't get fired by screwing up, but because some faction of their own party, be it unions, Tea party, some religious or ethnic group don't like them or because they sleep with someone that causes a fuss.
So the surprise is not that elected official are less than the best, the surprise is that they know such advanced maths as "some numbers are bigger than others" and that grasp foreign politics well enough to know that the Queen of England isn't a New York bar.
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Exactly. "safe" districts shift the major contest from each side fighting over the middle to the "safe" side fighting with itself over who can appeal to more zealots.
Math (Score:2)
1 - Lower the quality of math teaching and the math requirements to advance through the educational system.
2 - Wait about twenty years.
3 - Rig the elections in a non absolutely obvious way.
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You don't have to lower the math standards any, you just have to fail to raise them for the next 20 years. Even then it won't matter, because so many people are so bad at statistics and estimating, even when they know better.
Gerrymandering has internal effects too... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually if anything they're more serious than the external ones. In an ordinary district the candidates from each major party have to compete for a majority of voters. In a gerrymandered "safe" district the other side is never going to win in the first place so the real contest isn't between each side but rather during the primary to see who's can be more extreme.
Creates False Impressions of Opinion Majority (Score:5, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:3)
Except... (Score:2)
"If we really want our elections to reflect the will of the people,"
What "people", though?
Let me be absolutely clear: gerrymandering is bullshit - I'm *all* in favor of algorithmically-determined districts, such that they conform to: ...that's great, as far as it goes, and in reading the article, that seems to be where they stopped. I'd add one further, complicating factor:
- must have the same population
- must be contiguous
- they have to recognize communities
It's easy enough to parcel a state into clumps o
Re:Except... (Score:4, Insightful)
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District-drawing very much should recognize communities. If you can avoid it, it does not make sense to have districts that are half suburban and half agricultural, or half high-end gentrified downtown and half working-class and poor. Unfortunately, as you point out, the judgment involved does make it easier to slip in some degree of gerrymandering.
Not just Republicans.... (Score:5, Informative)
...as TFA seems to imply. In the People's Republic of Maryland, the Democrats managed to gerrymander wacko-conservative Western MD into laughably liberal Montgomery County [wikipedia.org] in an effort to dilute the conservative's strength.
All politicians suck.
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Those politicians who are not willing to bend the rules through gerrymandering ultimately lose to those who do. It's like Darwinist evolution pressure in favor of corrupt politicians.
There is an open source solution (Score:5, Interesting)
* The only data fed to the program is geographic markers the will provide convenient district borders (railroad lines, roads, rivers, county and city borders, etc.) and the number of people within each section. No other demographic data (age, race, previous voting patterns, income, etc.) will be input into the program
* the program will be completed 2 years before the redistricting and be open source so that anyone can inspect it and run it and get the same result
* the program will take a random seed as input and will generate different results based on that seed.
The geographic data will also be made public 2 years in advance of the redistricting
When the census data comes out it will be published as well.
On the big day they'll hold a lotto-type drawing to select the random seed. At that point anyone - researchers, journalists, some kid in his basement - can run the program and know the result before it is even published by the government. If the result isn't what everyone else expects we'll know there was funny business.
The program will be fair because the kind of data that allows gerrymandering simply won't be permitted as input. Any sneaky attempts to use something like population density as a proxy will be something anyone can find and complain about in the open source code. Neither party will be able look at the results ahead of time, see that by chance it gives a slight advantage to their opponents, and scuttle the process because the outcome won't be available until the random seed is drawn.
Unintentional Gerrymandering (Score:3, Interesting)
See: http://www-personal.umich.edu/... [umich.edu]
Needless complexity or necessary evil? (Score:2)
I'm sure I'm being incredibly naive, but what's wrong with a plain old popular vote? I don't know why there's always this obsession with districts, electoral colleges, all of that bollocks. If you get the most votes you get the job, why must that be complicated? I'm not trying to be facetious here I'm honestly curious.
Stuff like this. (Score:2)
Is why I don't vote.
Now if we had a system based on Single Transferable Vote https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
And districts made by Shortest splitline Algorithm https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Then i would.
Re:Stuff like this. (Score:4, Insightful)
Ten most gerrymandered districts (Score:4, Informative)
Enjoy - from The Washington Post [washingtonpost.com]
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Mod Up. This is the #1 problem in the USA. Fix this and many, many other problems with government will magically disappear.
Sortocracy is the only answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Sortocracy is sorting proponents of social theories into governments that test them. It is the only political system that allows people to escape bad governance: People can vote with their feet.
Any attempt to "reform the political process" is doomed for the reason pointed out by Machiavellli:
Any system that does not allow people to experience a new order of things by voluntary assortation is doomed to the political equivalent of theocracy: Imposing a single social theory on unwilling human experimental subjects. You must allow for consent to experimental treatment of human subjects and you must allow for control groups to evidence causality.
There is going to be a revolution.
In Soviet America.... (Score:4, Interesting)
In Soviet America, voters don't chose their representatives, rather the representatives choose their voters.
Stalin is reported to have said that he takes little account of who votes, but rather it is he who counts the votes that matters. Politics in American have done him proud... it matters not who votes, but where you vote that counts. One vote in a swing state is worth thousands of votes in the so called "safe states". In fact with most districts there isn't even a meaningful contest.
Tyranny by definition is rule without mandate. When less than 50% of the people vote, and of them not all the votes have equal political value, then I think it is safe to state that the USA has perhaps crossed the line into tyranny.
Yet some tyrannies can be quite nice to live in.
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Perhaps bigger?
Did it ever occur to you that most people don't vote on racial lines?
Re:What Does This Mean (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What Does This Mean (Score:4, Insightful)
This means that, although the Republicans lost the popular vote in the state, and they lost the geographically weighted vote according to 100 randomly drawn electoral maps, they still ended up winning the state overall.
This is true, and I have absolutely no doubt that there is some serious manipulation going on in drawing districts, as there has been by both parties for centuries.
That said, there's quite a big gap of logic in one of the assumptions of this study. From TFS:
"If someone voted for a particular candidate in the 2012 election and one of our redrawn maps assigned where they live to a new congressional district, we assumed that they would still vote for the same political party."
To what extent is this assumption valid, though? The model appears based on the assumption that ALL voters are "straight-ticket" types who just vote Republican or Democrat mindlessly.
In other words, it doesn't take into account whether (1) a voter might actually care about a specific candidate and what he/she says, (2) a voter might actually respond to campaign advertising or other candidate promotions, (3) for incumbents, a voter might actually continue to vote for an incumbent is he/she is perceived to have served well. (Stats generally show that incumbents have a huge advantage in elections -- voters prefer to vote for familiar names.)
Without controlling for such factors (e.g., by looking at previous election vote counts and comparing how "faithful" voters are to a particular party over the course of a number of elections), this study is SERIOUSLY flawed.
Also, candidates run campaigns according to the rules that are in place. They may visit areas in their district because they have to win those areas and make promises they might not otherwise make because those areas are in their district. If the district lines were drawn differently, they would probably campaign differently.
This strikes me as flawed as those who get into arguments about how Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 election. (To be clear, I definitely was never a Bush fan, but I'm interested in rational argument, not fantasies.)
Anyhow, Gore and Bush weren't campaigning to win the popular vote across the country. They were campaigning to win the electoral college vote, which required strategy based on regions and state boundaries. To come back later and say, "But, but... Gore should have won because he got the popular vote" is like some idiot saying, "I know I lost Monopoly, but I had the most properties -- if you changed the rules to allow me to build houses based on the number of properties I own rather than the number of monopolies I had, I could have won!" So what? Those aren't the rules of the game.
The rules of the game may be stupid (and are in the case of gerrymandered districts). But the players choose strategies based on them. The voters may respond to such strategies. None of this appears to have been considered in this model.
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It's based on the weaker assumption that the number within each ward who change won't be significant. Or more accurately the net number.
Re:How is that startling? (Score:4, Insightful)
Gerrymandering has a long, proud tradition in U.S. politics. I wouldn't be surprised if it resulted in advantage to one side about half the time.
It seems that political power is self-limiting. One side will occupy Congress for a while, until the other side gets fed up and makes a switch. As long as one party doesn't control the whole Congress plus the presidency, gridlock keeps us safe from most of the excesses of either side. It's only when one side runs the whole show that it's time to worry.
Re: How is that startling? (Score:5, Insightful)
And which side do you fear? The Republicrats or the Demoblicans?
Both, if you're smart.
Re: How is that startling? (Score:4, Insightful)
I prefer to refer to the de facto one party system we have as being run by Demoncrats.
That unfortunately sounds like one of Rush's talking points.
Actually now that I think about it .. it was one of Michael Savages [wikipedia.org] catch phrases.
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Re:How is that startling? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Holy shit. You are deliberately obtuse, Colonel Klink.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-16-secretary-state-democrats_x.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_Project
http://ballotpedia.org/Secretary_of_State_Project
And of course only places like the Washington Times would report it. The Major national papers are just a unofficial wing of the Democratic party and wothey sork to suppress embarrassing things like this.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How is that startling? (Score:5, Informative)
What's really startling (not really) is the fact gerrymandering is worse in blue states than red ones, but we only ever hear (on this site) that it's all the evil republicans while the democrats are the poor victims.
You have any evidence for that not startling fact? I have no doubt that both parties do it but the Republicans have always seemed to be particularly egregious when it comes to electioneering.
Re: How is that startling? (Score:3)
Go here - http://www.washingtonpost.com/... [washingtonpost.com] - and talk about how the worst Republian-drawn districts are so much worse than the worst Democrat-drawn district.
Both parties have been doing it for years, and every election the losers complain about gerrymandering the other party did.
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Re: How is that startling? (Score:4, Interesting)
You'd get more sympathy from me if there was enough voter fraud to worry about. The fact is that since 2000 out of 100's of millions of votes cast there have been less than 50 cases of attempted voter fraud of the kind that voter ID would prevent. To illustrate how miniscule that is lets assume they're only catching 1 out of 100 cases of voter fraud than that there were 5,000 cases and that there were 500 million votes cast (it's got to way more than that). That would give you a fraud percentage of 0.01%. In person voter fraud is not a problem.
Re: (Score:3)
What's really startling (not really) is the fact gerrymandering is worse in blue states than red ones,
Is it? Did you run a similar model on the other 49 states and find that mathematical districting favors republicans 51% of the time? If you could provide your method and data it would certainly illuminate the conversation.
Or are we just taking one line blanket statements at face value now (as the +5 indicates)? AKA the campaign commercial debate style.
Re:How is that startling? (Score:5, Insightful)
* The only data fed to the program is geographic markers the will provide convenient district borders (railroad lines, roads, rivers, county and city borders, etc.) and the number of people within each section. No other demographic data (age, race, previous voting patterns, income, etc.) will be input into the program
* the program will be completed 2 years before the redistricting and be open source so that anyone can inspect it and run it and get the same result
* the program will take a random seed as input and will generate different results based on that seed.
The requirements also include obvious stuff like how spread out or compact districts must be, how many can be disconnected, etc.
The geographic data will also be made public 2 years in advance of the redistricting
When the census data comes out it will be published as well.
On the big day they'll hold a lotto-type drawing to select the random seed. At that point anyone - researchers, journalists, some kid in his basement - can run the program and know the result before it is even published by the government. If the result isn't what everyone else expects we'll know there was funny business.
The program will be fair because the kind of data that allows gerrymandering simply won't be permitted as input. Any sneaky attempts to use something like population density as a proxy will be something anyone can find and complain about in the open source code. Neither party will be able look at the results ahead of time, see that by chance it gives a slight advantage to their opponents, and scuttle the process because the outcome won't be available until the random seed is drawn.
Re:How is that startling? (Score:5, Insightful)
Just change to a proportional election system instead. Let the percentage of votes decide how many seats a party will get.
It will of course invite other parties to the election party as well.
Re:How is that startling? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's true that a winner-take-all system essentially hands votes to the "opposing party" if you vote for a third party.
However, in a proportional system, the party you vote for will actually get a proportional number of seats (as you might expect). That third party which is useless to vote for now because they only get 5% of the votes (and hence, zero seats) would suddenly get 5% of the seats.
Keep in mind that even with our winner-take-all system, there is a small percentage of votes for third parties every election. Now those parties would be invited to the table. Once people see that, they might actually starting to vote for the parties they want, knowing that their votes would actually work towards increased influence for their chosen party.
However, that is unlikely to happen in the US, as it works against the interests of those parties in power, and we can't have that.
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So we'd be voting for a party rather than an individual with his or her own ideas? That's a step backwards.
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And you aren't now? The vast majority of US politics is party politics. It's really quite convenient - one look at the letter beside a politicians name and you can know with a high degree of reliability their positions on everything from gay marriage to gun control to taxation to immigration to environmental protection to healthcare to forign policy. It doesnt matter that these issues have little to no connection - everything is conveniently bundled up into the 'republican package' and the 'democrat package
Re: How is that startling? (Score:3)
You could still vote for individuals. When they hand out seats to the parties based on proportions, the individuals with the most votes in that party would get the seats.
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Why not include a census question asking people what neighbors they feel they are closest to?
That way, with a few simple rules, it's possible to calculate census areas which are culturally distinct. So a major urban area won't dilute a rural area, a black majority-area won't be diluted by being split up into multiple districts, etc.
Re:How is that startling? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmmm...how about social security and medicare, should that be handled by the states so that poor states get shafted...well, their older citizens will. That will cause a migration to a few states and leave rest to the wilderness. How about OSHA and workplace safety regulations? Each state is going to produce their own? FDA? Each state will have its own? The list goes on. We have these government agencies to regulate those well-adjusted nice companies that will cut grannies throat if they thought they could increase their profit by doing so. A collection of polyglot regulatory agencies is how we got the current insurance industry. These are those nice, well-meaning companies that want to cherry pick the healthy people and only insure them.
So your libertarian utopia is an academic exercise in futility.
Re:How is that startling? (Score:5, Informative)
Duke is a private university. And its main external funding comes from a rich industrialist's foundation [wikipedia.org].
Re:How is that startling? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:How is that startling? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How is that startling? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's true that politicians from both parties are responsible for gerrymandering. That's why, in California, we took redistricting out of the hands of politicians entirely. Legislators from both parties fought the measure - but they failed. I hope other states follow suit - the results have already been positive for representation in California, with many more competitive races (including some between candidates from the same party).
With the citizen's redistricting committee and open primaries, we may even have third party candidates start to win local elections.
Section 2 of the voting rights act REQUIRES D gerr (Score:3, Interesting)
> If I'm wrong, please do show me this mass D gerrymandering that's going on.... Or did go on.
Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act _requires_ that districts be gerrymandered such that demographic groups which are a _minority_ of the population make up a _majority_ of the voters in those districts. When states fail to gerrymander for democrats ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H black people, the federal government intervenes and forces gerrymandered districts. This is not new.
Re:Section 2 of the voting rights act REQUIRES D g (Score:5, Interesting)
North Carolina, in fact, has a very famously gerrymandered district for this reason ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina%27s_12th_congressional_district ); and I'm sure the simulation ignored that detail.
If a state has ten districts, and 10% of the population is black, under current federal law, they have to do their best to give blacks a majority vote in one district. But that generally means that nine of that states representatives can completely ignore the black vote. It seems to me that the world would be a better place if black voters made up 10% of each district's population: they could swing the election in any of those districts, and each representative would have a very strong reason to listen to their concerns.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How about the district formerly represented by Barney Frank in Massachusetts? It even has the gerrymander look to it.
http://sisu.typepad.com/.a/6a0... [typepad.com]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/109938/marylands-3rd-district-americas-most-gerrymandered-congressional-district [newrepublic.com]
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Re:How is that startling? (Score:4, Interesting)
Austin, Texas is the most liberal city in Texas. You would think they would have a liberal, progressive representative but not true.
The Texas Republicans have split Austin's votes as part of six different districts (some of which stretch for 50 miles). The result is that Austin has six Republican representatives, none of which represent the views of Austin. Austin is the largest city in the US without a congressional district anchor.
Re:I don't recall such interest in gerrymandering (Score:4, Insightful)
When Democrats win, they get a misty tear in their eye as they are overcome with pride that the will of the people has prevailed, democracy has been saved, and their party now has a clear mandate.
Morons, all of them.