India Successfully Launches Region-Specific Navigation Satellite 86
vasanth writes India has successfully launched IRNSS-1C, the third satellite in the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS), early on October 16. This is the 27th consecutively successful mission of the PSLV(Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle). The entire constellation of seven satellites is planned to be completed by 2015. The satellite is designed to provide accurate position information service to users in the country as well as in the region extending up to 1,500 km from its boundary, which is its primary service area. In the Kargil war in 1999, the Indian military sought GPS data for the region from the U.S. The space-based navigation system maintained by the U.S. government would have provided vital information, but the U.S. denied it to India. A need for an indigenous satellite navigation system was felt earlier, but the Kargil experience made India realise its inevitability in building its own navigation system. "Geopolitical needs teach you that some countries can deny you the service in times of conflict. It's also a way of arm twisting and a country should protect itself against that," said S Ramakrishnan, director of Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre, Thiruvananthapuram.
Re:Good job, India! (Score:5, Insightful)
What the fuck.
How many countries have their own, in-house built GPS solutions?
Re: How many GPS systems are there? (Score:5, Informative)
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Japan's sortof counts because their GPS system is actually an enhancement of the United States GPS system in that Quazizenith will be able to track down to centimeters. Hopefully something the US GPS will never do.
Re: How many GPS systems are there? (Score:1)
I understand the US intends to remove that restriction as it doesn't exist in Gallileo and some modernisation to keep up with the accuracy of Gallileo. Glonass is more accurate in the far north (slightly less elsewhere).
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GPS (US GNSS) already "tracks" to the SUB centimeter level (carrier phase psuedo-range measurements) - used in tectonic analysis and general survey applications.
Re: How many GPS systems are there? (Score:5, Informative)
Therefore, from the in-house GPS perspective, india is in top 5 countries. I'd say that's quite an achievement.
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Japan has been putting up satellites to enhance and eventually provide an alternative to GPS over its territory too.
Bottom line is, something that valuable to your military can't be shared with potentially hostile or uncooperative countries.
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To what degree does mod contribute to the conversation?
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Re: Good job, India! (Score:1)
The US appeases many Muslim countries: Egypt, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia when it suits their needs. Don't act all high and mighty.
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The US doesn't appease Muslim Countries they do exactly what all the US haters want and ignore any internal policies that doesn't threaten US interests. One good example would be the 3 billion dollars the US has paid Egypt to stop working against Israel. It's work. Why should the US care about repression in Bahrain as long as the big naval base is being provided and paid for by the Bahrain government? Why should the US censure Saudi Arabia as long as they manage output to keep the oil prices at an acceptabl
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India isn't an ally of the US either. It wasn't that long ago when they were cozy-cozy with the Russians, then when the USSR fell, had to turn around and start diplomatic really quick. Earlier this year, when Putin was rattling his saber, India came a calling and showed that their old alliances still held.
The TFA doesn't state why the GPS info was denied back in 1999, nor why. In fact, the linked article is more state propaganda than anything else. It doesn't seem far-fetched though. At that time, the
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India has been and is the major client of Russian weapons in the world. At one point, after the Sino-Soviet split, the Russians did not sell any weapons to the Chinese and today they still give preferential access to India. Like the aircraft carrier, the nuclear submarine, T-90 tanks, etc.
India is considered by the Russians a strategic partner and counterweight against other forces in the region namely China and Pakistan. Iraq also used to be a strategic partner at one point. Syria still is.
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Except that today, China is very much an ally of Russia (or maybe even vice versa). That famous Sino-Soviet split of the 60s is long over - one country is no longer communist, and the other is no longer ruled by Communists. Russia currently doesn't have geopolitical interests - it's just gathering all the allies that it can find. It's a pity that they aren't more discriminating about it, and even giving support to countries like Iran, Syria and North Korea.
Similarly, China was once a major ally of Pa
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What is wrong with having dealings with Syria? The regime is dictatorial and is a de facto monarchy but I never heard of them treating their citizens like North Korea does or having an enforced state religion like in Iran. In fact I cannot think much bad I can say about Iran that does not happen even worse in Saudi Arabia.
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"Except that today, China is very much an ally of Russia (or maybe even vice versa)."
China and Russia are ancient foes. The Soviet-sino alliance was the abberation, not the norm.
At the moment there's very little love lost between China and Russia and any alliances are out of necessity. The chinese have made it clear on a number of occasions that they're not fans of Putin's form of government (the chinese govt regard him as a destabilising influence, as they're very aware that global peace makes for better t
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How are China & Russia ancient foes? Before the Cold War, the 2 hardly had any contact with each other. Rather, it was the Mongols who had a lot of interaction with both, but not of a nature that would bring Russia & China together.
China today has the same policies as Russia on Iran, Syria and North Korea: how are they not allies? In China's case, they have a lot more to gain by supporting their biggest trading partner - the US, than antagonizing us over these 3. In Russia's case, I understand
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You don't get it. Iran was never a major weapons client of the Russians. In the time of the Shah their major supplier was the US/UK and ever since they have dealt with a motley collection of rotting equipment. Iraq was the state being supplied by the Soviet Union back during the Iran/Iraq war while the Iranians used previous stock, weapons dropped by Iraqi soldiers, or whatever. The major weapons clients of Russia have been India, Venezuela and China to a degree.
Syria is a strategic matter of having some de
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Cold War era, Syria was a major weapons client of the Soviets. Major reason was that they were the only ones in an active war against Israel, which had both its own, and US weaponry. The Soviets wanted to see how they do in battle, and 1983 was when they got to see it. Of course, a good part of it has to do with the personnel - while the Israelis may have creamed the Syrians, the Indians, w/ Soviet weaponry as well, was usually on top of Pakistan.
Iran wasn't a client of the Soviets during the Khomenei
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It is correct that is was hard for the Soviet Union to support a theocratic state like Iran for ideological reasons. But despite intermittent reports I have heard of no major weapons sales to Iran.
The Soviet Union at one point supplied Egypt, Syria and Iraq in their fight against Israel. While Israel, which used to be supplied by the French and British, later lost that support and got US support instead. Egypt eventually dropped out of the Soviet sphere after the Camp David accords so now they are an US wea
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It is not Islam-specific. The equivocal attitude the US displayed during the Kargil conflict — when India was clearly the injured party — is not entirely unlike the attitude displayed this year towards Ukraine (where what few Muslims reside, all strongly resent the invader).
Though Obama (as Clinton back in 1999) talks the talk of supporting the invaded victim, the US would only help with "non-lethal" supplies [thehill.com] — and only after a significant delay.
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Read the article. This is mostly for military purposes.
US denied them access to GPS data when Pakistani terrorist hid themselves on difficult to reach mountainous terrain during Kargil war. Hundreds of soldiers were killed in their attempt to retake the mountain peaks. In fact, India had to import a large number of laser guided bombs from Israel at $50 million a piece.
Investment in technology save lives, develops nations and keeps you independent. If India has realized that, it should not be a surprise. Plu
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They are much better than that. At a minimum they are in the 80s as far as navigation startup.
but they have a BIG advantage - faster processors, their own engineers...
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Region-Specific (Score:1)
So this satellite only orbits above India?
That must be a tricky orbit.
You could have one sitting above Sri Lanka (well a little bit to the south) 25,000 miles up.
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It must be great having no idea how anything works. It makes it so much easier to be snarky.
Satelite navigation systems work by measuring the time difference between signals from more than one satellite. A minimum of 3 for a 2D fix, a minimum of 4 if you want to add a dimension and get altitude information as well. So you make a regional system by setting up the orbits so that there are always 3-4 satellites visible from the region of interest. Occasionally you will be able to get a fix elsewhere in the
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Actually, while it's generally pretty trivial to make sure 3-4 (5+ would be better) are visible from any given point on Earth, it's rather harder (read: nearly impossible) to make sure 3-4 are visible from any point in India but NOT from any point outside India.
Unless the satellites are in geosy
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"Unless the satellites are in geosynchronous orbits, of course, but then you're not going to have the separations you need for a good solution."
The satellites are at geosynchronous altitude but located off the Clarke Belt. This results in a constellation of satellites which appear to move north/south or in a figure 8 above a fixed point on earth.
The japanese system is setup the same way - in that case resulting in rather good australian coverage, but other than Sri Lanka there's nothing due south of India e
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Agree. It isn't clear to me how one implements a "regional GPS." You could certainly implement a global one and then disable it outside of the region (ie satellites don't broadcast when they're not near India). Maybe a few in geosync might work - they would all lie on the equator so the solution to the problem would allow for a position in either India or the Indian ocean, and if it is "regional" they could just exclude the southern solution. I'm not sure what the accuracy would be like since all your f
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Re:Region-Specific (Score:5, Informative)
Three of them yes. 3:4 in geostationary vs geosynchronous orbit of 1 sidereal day.
So, three will always be visible over india. Two of the other other four will be timed such that they are over India in a 24 hour period.
So, 5 satellites will provide a fix.
Hope that helps.
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The "Such an arrangement would mean all seven satellites would have continuous radio visibility with Indian control stations." and "A network of 21 ranging stations located across the country will provide data for the orbit determination of the satellites and monitoring of the navigation signal." should help most readers understand the navigation system.
Great news from India and it shows the long term design efforts. Fully understanding the science and been able to build the needed system
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Thanks. The geosynchronous orbits are probably the key - at any time one would be far enough above the equator to provide the necessary angular separation to improve accuracy.
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Re:Region-Specific (Score:5, Interesting)
You jest, but it's a real problem they are solving by creating their own Indian standard time infrastructure.
The entire system is being designed, built, launched, flown, and operated in India, by Indians, with absolutely no foreign dependencies. Having been burned more than a few times in their short existence by various nations who disagreed with their internal decisions, they take their independence very seriously. This is slightly different than the average American who pretty much takes their own independence for granted these days.
Shorter with coordinates. (Score:4, Funny)
With the added benefit that saying "8.460N,76.963E" is much faster than pronouncing this city name!
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The US can turn on SA and degrade positional accuracy whenever they want (by global region). The Russians can't be trusted either. Countries with satellite guided munitions don't want to face the risk of missing their target.
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Not on the Block IIIA Satellites - DoD Permanently Discontinues Procurement Of Global Positioning System Selective Availability [defense.gov]. Granted, they're not in the sky yet, but the US military already has the capability to deny GPS to specific areas, so they wouldn't need it anyway.
Remember, it was the FAA that was the force behind deactivating SA. Turning it back on now could well be more dangerous than just denying GPS and issuing a NOTAM.
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You are missing a sarcasm tag, hopefully.
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US has been known to shut down gps over regions during conflicts, last happend to india in 1999. India like eu, china, and russia now want thier own systems so they are not dependent on the USs goodwill and support.
I expect at least GLONASS is also designed to be able to spoof GPS.
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This has something to do with India's recent increased interest in cruise missiles. The Indian Armed forces just recently tested a sub-sonic, nuclear capable cruise missile.
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It is exclusively nuclear, AFAIK. No conventional warheads. Also, the navigation uses IRNSS exclusively (apart from inertial).
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I think we can safely assume that since Indian engineers are designing and building the chips they'll be using in their own system, it would certainly be possible for them to build their own GPS receivers that aren't subject to the American munitions export restrictions on velocity and altitude. They are doing this strictly for independence from all foreign influences.
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There are a number of GPS receiver chip designs which are external to the USA (design and manufacture). The problem is that in order to be signed off as Navstar compatible and/or sold in the USA, they have to comply with Navstar's usage restrictions.
Those requirements will probably be thrown out when Gallileo goes live.
It's worth bearing in mind that the Gallileo consortium had to agree to a number of USA demands on operation, with the threat that if GPS systems weren't able to be shut down in certain areas
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India's people are quite impoverished and many of the home don't even have indoor plumbing.
India had to import laser guided bombs (at close to 50 million a piece) from Israel and the US to remove Pakistani terrorists (in fact, Pakistani military dressed as mujjahideens). Where were all these "lets build more plumbing" crusaders then?
History has shown that countries that don't advance technologically perish. If a small island like Britain could rule 150 countries, it was because it excelled in innovation. Sorry, your argument about holding on with innovation has proven to be flawed for centuries.
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I am always surprised to see a country with fabulous universities, and high standard of living, with people who are ignorant to the point of being stupid.
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Such claims makes you very one dimensional. Here is some basic economy. Let me explain at a level that may be comprehensible to you.
You have a pickup truck with broken widows, firing only 3 out of 4 cylinders, leaking oil and a missing door. You have limited resources. You have small farm with some fish, sheep & chicken. Your daughter is an excellent cook and can whip up exotic goat-cheese egg frittata (an expensive dish). The neighborhood markets pay you decent money to supply this exotic dish.
Will y
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Such claims makes you very one dimensional. Allow me explain at a level that may be comprehensible to you.
You have a pickup truck with broken widows, firing only 3 out of 4 cylinders, leaking oil and a missing door. You have limited resources. You have small farm with some fish, sheep & chicken. Your daughter is an excellent cook and can whip up exotic goat-cheese egg frittata (an expensive dish). The neighborhood markets pay you decent money to supply this exotic dish.
Will you:
(1) Sell your chicken f
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Yes, many of India's people are impoverished. That condition has existed for thousands of years. Instead, look at the rate at which India has been lifting her people out of poverty. Forty years ago, less than 5% were wealthy, and she had virtually no middle class. Today, about a third of the people are middle class or wealthier. That means that about 400,000,000 people are a whole lot better off than their grandparents.
They won't ever be able to eradicate poverty with the signing of a law, or with a "gove
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GPS systems are proving to be far more valuable to indian civilians than the indian military. One of the greatest advances has been the use of GPS-guided farming systems and using GPS data from ground surveys to identify areas most vulnerable to flooding and move people.
Yes, India has grinding poverty, but it's doing far more than the USA ever did to lift its people out of that - meantime the USA's poverty levels keep increasing.
The interesting phenomenon which is emerging (and has emerged in every single c
How do they stop at the borders (Score:2)
How do they stop the service at the borders? Do the sats turn around?
They are in polar orbits, so they cover the whole planet. How can that be considered regional?