Core Secrets: NSA Saboteurs In China and Germany 228
Advocatus Diaboli writes with this snippet from The Intercept: The National Security Agency has had agents in China, Germany, and South Korea working on programs that use "physical subversion" to infiltrate and compromise networks and devices, according to documents obtained by The Intercept. The documents, leaked by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, also indicate that the agency has used under cover operatives to gain access to sensitive data and systems in the global communications industry, and that these secret agents may have even dealt with American firms. The documents describe a range of clandestine field activities that are among the agency's "core secrets" when it comes to computer network attacks, details of which are apparently shared with only a small number of officials outside the NSA.
They really need to pardon Snowden... (Score:5, Insightful)
... so he'll not feel inspired to keep leaking.
I'm all for the leaks when it concerns stuff the NSA does against civilians. But against foreign governments? The point of the NSA is to do that sort of thing. And anyone that thinks these other governments aren't doing the same thing back are kidding themselves. The US is just walking around with their fly down until they get Snowden home. And he can be brought back at any time for the low low price of just pardoning him. Do that, admit fault, have a national/international discussion about it, and then as part of that he stops.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Snowden is a whistleblower. He deserves our thanks, and an apology from everyone who's demanded that he be prosecuted.
I agree, but now he's gone too far. The crimes were spying on the American people without warrants. But this sort of interception of information is exactly what the NSA is supposed to do. There has never been any secret about that, and I support it as useful intelligence. If Snowden keeps this up, he's going to alienate his supporters, or at the very least give a lot of ammo to his detractors.
While I will agree with that.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Physical subversion of foreign intelligence assets is CIA territory, not NSA. While that certainly IS a way to perform Signal Interception, I'm cautiously optimistic that is outside the scope of their charter.
There's a reason these powers were supposed to have been segregated between multiple branches of the government/military and not just consolidated all under one roof. One of those reasons was accountability to their constituents, the other being so they couldn't use this to subvert the rule of law.
Now that neither is true, we need to look long and hard at what steps to take to suitable resolve this dilemma while not letting outside forces dominate our internal and international landscapes.
Re:While I will agree with that.... (Score:4, Interesting)
SIGINT is the NSA's bailiwick and nothing in the mission statement of the NSA precludes using physical intrusion to obtain it.
What's more NSA is part of the DoD, and the DoD has been conducting physical intrusion to obtain SIGINT for years. In the Cold War American subs tapped undersea cables believed by the Soviets to be impervious. That was a joint NSA, Navy, CIA program, which makes sense.
It also makes sense that physical intrusion to obtain SIGINT would be a joint NSA/CIA operation, which means that someone with access to the NSA family jewels can also compromise CIA "assets" overseas.
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This leak covers NSA actions both domestically and abroad. Expecting Snowden to leak only a pound of flesh and not
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Exactly. He needs to keep his leaks to what the NSA does wrong... not what they do right.
Re:Pardons are for the guilty. (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. He needs to keep his leaks to what the NSA does wrong... not what they do right.
1. If the government doesn't want broad unofficial leaks, then they should have a functional and safe channel for internal whistleblowing.
2. Snowden offered the NSA a chance to vet the material. They refused. So it is silly to now complain that it wasn't vetted.
3. Loyalty is a two way street. Citizens should be loyal to their country. But countries should also be loyal to their citizens.
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No government agency is supposed to criminalise and corrupt the citizens of another state. This is in essence the core of organised crime. Where does it end, how about assassination to keep secrets, random murders to hide activities or hiding criminal activities behind innocent people so they get blamed and imprisoned. So white collar crimes are acceptable when governments are involved, economic warfare, currency forgery, forging electronic bank transactions emptying accounts and shifting the money to more
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You are right but this is espionage so he shouldn't have leaked THIS information.
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Re:They really need to pardon Snowden... (Score:5, Insightful)
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My understanding is that many of the documents are encrypted.
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Where did you get this understanding from?
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But foreigners themselves are loving this stuff, as they can use this against their own governments, often "sharing" (actually: just handing it over, but that paints too much a picture the actual situation) intercepted data with the NSA. Did you hear any arrest warrants being issued against UK citizens by Belgian authorities regarding the Belgacom hack by GCHQ? What DID the Belgian government/intelligence services know?
I say it's time to pull their pants down. You won't see any balls, but you will see how t
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Foreign powers hand over their intelligence because that is the price of US intelligence which is highly desired by all allied powers. US intel is extensive. But it is a pay to play system. You want intel? You have to give intel.
And even then... there are rules.
The concept is valid and I don't have a problem with it.
The issue is that the data being collected is often something the intelligence services shouldn't have. Intel on you and me for one thing. The dragnet intel gathering is not acceptable. If they
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Looks like it is working out great for Pakistan. I think the whole world admires what a wonderful place that is to live.
Who doesn't want to live there? Raise a family... start a career...
Oh that's right... no one. It is a shithole. And the betrayals do not go unnoticed. The reason we didn't tell them about the Osama raid was because they had been lying to us. Because of that they are cut off. We will only tell them what they need to know when they need to know it.
What is more, they are cut off from our tech
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... so he'll not feel inspired to keep leaking.
I'm all for the leaks when it concerns stuff the NSA does against civilians. But against foreign governments? The point of the NSA is to do that sort of thing. And anyone that thinks these other governments aren't doing the same thing back are kidding themselves. The US is just walking around with their fly down until they get Snowden home. And he can be brought back at any time for the low low price of just pardoning him. Do that, admit fault, have a national/international discussion about it, and then as part of that he stops.
Because 2 wrongs make a right? Is that how it goes?
We're talking about deliberate sabotage of our allies telecommunications networks. It'd be one thing if this were with countries we're at war with, but it's not.
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We're talking about deliberate sabotage of our allies telecommunications networks. It'd be one thing if this were with countries we're at war with, but it's not.
Thank you!
Because 2 wrongs make a right? Is that how it goes?
But let's not kid our selves... Most countries don't have offensive intelligence capabilities.
Just because the US intelligence community has a history of murdering and selling drugs to fund illegal wars, doesn't mean other civilized countries do...
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Have these allies sign an agreement to never spy on the US and I'll support the US signing a similar agreement. Short of that... we all spy on each other.
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Hilariously, you can blame Russians for this one.
See, when they took in Snowden, they had a list of terms for him. One was that he would not leak anything while he was in their country.
Snowden agreed, and before accepting asylum he sent everything he had to a few responsible outlets, who are now doing the staggered release of information.
Both a whistleblower and a traitor ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Revealing mass surveillance of US citizens is obviously whistleblowing.
However revealing clandestine cyber operations against China, a country that routinely conduct cyber espionage against US commercial, gov
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I am prepared to forgive it to end this nonsense. Nothing is gained by keeping him out of the country. Bring him in, give him amnesty... and then tell him if he keeps going then he'll be back on the list.
its the best option we have left.
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I am prepared to forgive it to end this nonsense. Nothing is gained by keeping him out of the country. Bring him in, give him amnesty... and then tell him if he keeps going then he'll be back on the list. its the best option we have left.
The disclosures will most likely continue though. He seems not to be the lone holder of the data nor the keys.
Plus it is very likely Chinese and Russian security services have the info. As I said, he had to pay the rent somehow. The leaks will continue to strategically undermine US efforts. The US and Germany need to cooperate in order to address the crisis in Ukraine, coincidentally its leaked that the US conducted cyber operations against Germany?
It probably as coincidental as the mass surveillance
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The US says that hypocritical crap the chinese every other day of the week. Its nothing special.
As to leaks being done to drive a wedge between the US and germany... maybe... rather doubt it.
As to paying rent, he doesn't need to pay more. Simply causing problems for the US intelligence services for any reason is payment in full.
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The US says that hypocritical crap the chinese every other day of the week. Its nothing special.
It is quite special when the Presidents of the US and China are going to meet at a face-to-face summit and the President of the US is going to formally complain about cyber attacks at such a high publicity event.
As to leaks being done to drive a wedge between the US and germany... maybe... rather doubt it.
Whether highly effective or not isn't the important part, the timing itself that can be incriminating. If releases continue to appear strategically timed then coincidental seems less likely and the planned more likely.
As to paying rent, he doesn't need to pay more. Simply causing problems for the US intelligence services for any reason is payment in full.
For intelligence agencies payment in full has not been met until **every** piece o
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the logic is circular so there isn't much I can say.
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I'm all for the leaks when it concerns stuff the NSA does against civilians. But against foreign governments? The point of the NSA is to do that sort of thing.
Spying on allies? really? This borderlines to act of war...
By the way, foreign governments holds a lot of information about their citizens, social security numbers, medical records, tax records, etc. The NSA has no business doing mass surveillance on on civilians just because they aren't American!
And anyone that thinks these other governments aren't doing the same thing back are kidding themselves.
I'm fairly confident my government doesn't. In fact most intelligence gathering isn't necessarily illegal at all. Mostly you gather intelligence about political issues in foreign countries, but watching the news,
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If it bordered war then we've all been guilty for it for as long as we've been allies.
It doesn't. You just weren't aware of it. Countries spy on each other all the time. The only thing that stops them is resources and inclination.
As to you saying you wouldn't do such a thing... I believe you... just sign an agreement not to do it that has penalties if you're caught doing it. Then I'll be happy to sign the same agreement and we can both stop spying.
If you are unwilling to sign such an agreement then I'll ass
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If it bordered war then we've all been guilty for it for as long as we've been allies.
It doesn't. You just weren't aware of it. Countries spy on each other all the time.
Repeating that lie does not make it true. The German Government declared the US off limits. They accidently taped Ms. Clinton while she flew across fucking Afghanistan. They did not delete her conversations immediately and YOUR government used that as an example that Germany spied on the US too. Look it up for fuck's sake.
You think that Mass Surveillance on this level is OK?
F..k you! F..k you! F..k you!
Our human rights include privacy too. And we are no second class humans just because we happen to be Germa
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What do you think the Germans and English are trading for US intelligence? Their own intelligence.
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Yes. Sadly, this is true. Our secret services traded intelligence for US intelligence and collaborated in the mass surveillance on my country. I can only hope they did not collaborate in the manipulation of our infrastructure.
But your original lie was that my government spies on the US. And that is simply that: A lie to deflect the fact that the USA are overstepping every bound. And that is not OK.
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It isn't a lie. Name your country and I'll pull up evidence of spying.
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There are no "occupants" any more since the 2+4 treaty. The NATO covered our ass for the last 60 years and the allies brought us the little freedom we had since WW 2.
Beyond doubt they are taking away this freedom and try to implement an orwellian surveillance state of unbelievable proportions, just like they did in the US und GB. And yes, the problems in Irak, Iran und Syria are direct results of american interventions.
But "getting rid of them" is no realistic option. The German reunion was granted only if
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You Sir are insane. Stop posting as "Anonymous Coward" and come forward with your real ID. I risked some Karma to tell " Karmashock" that he is an uninformed idiot and why.
You are proposing that Germany should "rise up" again and spread fear on the american and russian people. This opinion is a neclectable minority in Germany, and rightfully so.
You learned nothing from our history. EOT.
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Then why do allies of the United States spy on the United States? We've caught them at it on occasion and even have some of their spies in our prisons.
Here is what I'll offer on the whole spying thing.
I think the US should put an "agreement not to spy on each other" document out there that binds all signing nations not to spy on each other. And sets out heavy consequences in the form of trade sanctions etc if they violate the terms. The trade sanctions would have to be imposed by all signing powers in the e
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I think the US should put an "agreement not to spy on each other" document out there that binds all signing nations not to spy on each other.
This is a bad idea. Countries spying on each other is a good thing. It is better if we understand each others' intentions, motivations, and capabilities. Exactly a hundred years ago, millions of men across Europe were dying in a war they blundered into because of serious diplomatic misjudgements, and secret treaties. That could have been prevented with better spying. For a more recent example, the Cold War had repeated escalations because of over estimations of enemy capabilities, such as the famous
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I guess my real point wasn't clear. I don't expect countries to sign such an agreement.
I expect them to be forced to admit that they want to retain the ability to spy by refusing to sign it.
And as such we get past this absurd holier then thou phase of the discussion where nations pretend that OF COURSE THEY don't spy on allies. Which is of course either wrong or a lie depending on whether the person saying that knows better.
once we all admit that we want to retain teh ability to spy we can talk about what l
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I have no interest in hamstringing my nation unless the other nations are willing to accept similar limitations with consequences if they violate the rules.
Absent that, I must assume you are spying on me and I will respond in kind.
Thus the US spying on foreign governments is a non-issue since those governments likewise spy on the US.
Is the US more competent at it? Perhaps. But being competent or incompetent does not render you unethical or ethical respectively.
if you want to talk about the NSA spying on civ
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The UN doesn't have to hold that power. Sign a treaty and its done.
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China wouldn't sign such an agreement so there's no danger of having to do that. However, if Belgium spied on the US or Spain... and they were all signatories then you would be required to impose sanctions.
Another idea might be raising their interest rates of debt. Something simple that is hard to avoid.
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Sure... and on top of that all players in the game insert covert agents that gather information that other players don't want to share.
We all do it to each other.
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Snowden is disclosing too much information about NSA operations against foreign governments. That interferes with the correct function of that organization and should be stopped.
At this point, the best move would be to grant him amnesty.
As to your pathetic little insult... is that really the best you can do?
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Your ejaculation comments just make you sound stupid... just fyi.
As to my quote, just because other countries are doing it doesn't mean it is helpful to the US to have our actions disclosed.
Twit.
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You say that from which country's perspective? It helps me understand where you are coming from.
As to the American control complex... it is because we are responsible for global peace. Your country isn't.
We are a super power. We have responsibilities. If we drop the ball, billions might die. We have more responsibility every day then your culture has probably had in the last thousand years combined.
Dare to contest me. You might not like how irrelevant you are or how important the US is... and it is a proble
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As to stupidity, that is something you'll have to back up.
1. Cold war. Many of the things the US has done over the years that people like you don't understand are related to that conflict. You don't understand it because you didn't fight it.
2. Cold war again.
3. Cold war again.
4. Nuclear containment. It revolves around our fears of WW3 which are central to US strategic policy. Again, minor powers tend not to understand such things because they have no capability or responsibility for managing long term globa
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Inability to do a thing is not the same thing as moral or ethical aversion to do that thing. You are not holier then us because you are incapable. You are just incapable.
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You can't distill every opinion 150 million voters think to a single binary choice every 4 years and expect to be able to send a complicated message.
Does look like they need adult supervision (Score:4, Insightful)
well duh (Score:2, Informative)
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Yes, which is why he's gone too far. I think the people wiping their asses with the 4th Amendment should be prosecuted (note that may include high office), but this is the NSA's job, and like most people I support it as necessary and useful.
Re:well duh (Score:5, Insightful)
So if, let's say, a hired assassin would kill someone from you family, would you say "well, it's against the law, but it was his job, so it's OK"? I doubt it...
If the NSA's job is to sabotage allies, then they've a wrong job. Period.
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Rethink what you are saying. "It's against the constiution, but it's their job, so it's OK.
An unclear antecedent, not unclear thinking. Warrantless wiretapping is against the 4th Amendment, but foreign SIGINT (what the latest news is about) is their job.
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Let me requote the grandparent post to you so you can read it again:
If the NSA's job is to sabotage allies, then they've a wrong job. Period.
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Since when did the prohibitions on government only apply to citizens? Free Press etc does not mean only in the USA. It doesn't say that those limits on government to infringe upon inherent "inalienable" human rights are not for other humans.
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Actually it is insulting and horrifying when these tactics are used against foreign nations considered to be allies.
Not only does it do that but it also isolates the USA from the rest of the world, it is not without reason that we Europeans look bleakly on the US and have a feeling of distrust while as allies we should have a different outlook.
The same goes for this when corporations are concerned, corporate espionage especially when done by a government agency is just plain wrong.
Re:well duh (Score:4, Insightful)
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Again with the "both sides" canard. How many military bases does the EU have stationed across the United States? Has the EU been busted for spying upon the communications of every person living in th
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Isn't this EXACTLY what the NSA's job is?
Cooperate espionage?
Acts of war against allies?
Gathering intelligence is about reading records from parliament than anything else. Especially when dealing with democracies more transparent than your own.
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Mass surveillance on every German citizen? Very nice.
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Isn't this EXACTLY what the NSA's job is?
It probably is - what I am worried about is not spying, in the sense of gathering intelligence, or even stealing industrial secrets - it's the complete lack of transparency and real oversight. And the very real and likely possibility, that agencies lie NSA and CIA instigate civil unrest in other countries. Take the infamous Tiananmen Square Massacre - there has been persistent rumours ever since, that this was largely a CIA operation that blew up. It may or may not have been the case, but the point is: we j
unless the NSA has the key. sometimes it does (Score:2)
What you quoted is often true. It's either secure or not.
On the other hand, If I encrypt some data, it can only be decrypted with the key. Theoretically, only I have the key, so only I can decrypt it. However, in at least one major instance, it's believed that the NSA also has a key*. If only me and the NSA have keys, the data is available to me and the NSA, but no one else. Whether that's good bad, the idea is that only two parties have keys. The attacker doesn't have my key, and the attacker does
Not Snowden (Score:2, Insightful)
Snowden doesn't leak these reports anymore. He doesn't even have access to the files. It's all reporters doing it now.
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And its entirely possible that there are other leakers inside the NSA feeding this info out. And Snowden is just the codeword for an ingenious parallel construction program that the press is using.
Spies are spying (Score:2)
You don't say.
what do you expect? (Score:2)
The NSA is a spy agency. Its job is to spy, which involves secretly doing illegal things in other countries. The problem with the NSA is secretly doing illegal things in this country.
And if you think that's hypocritical, think again I expect European and Asian countries to spy on us too. It's part of international relations, and it's good for countries to be able to check up on each other, instead of having to rely merely on official statements.
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You're saying the US does not treat its friends any better than it treats its (sometimes imaginary) enemies.
Interestingly, the US's friends have also noticed this.
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Interestingly, the US's friends have also noticed this.
Uh, they've known it all along. Stuff like being "shocked, shocked I tell you" when they find out the German Chancellor's phone is monitored is to reassure the public that they are indeed appropriately shocked about finding out what they've probably known all along.
The NSA spies on everybody. The allies probably even help them with it in exchange for getting access to some of the juicy tidbits. Heck, if there was a place to sign up I'd gladly let the NSA stick an appliance on my home LAN if it meant that
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> That is how the NSA probably gets its claws into 99% of the network closets out there. That obviously won't work in China, so there they use other ways.
So, basically you're saying whatever evil you do, it doesn't work with China. So, China is the victim?
I'm not quite sure what you're asking here.
The way the NSA gets into most wiring closets is most likely that they just ask the local government to let them install some boxes, and they do. The local government of course isn't going to advertise that. However, I think that it is unlikely that the Chinese would allow the NSA in, so the way the NSA would probably get intel on what goes on in China is with clandestine/illegal/whatever taps.
Just look at what the Navy+NSA did to the USSR back in the day with Iv
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Europeans are our allies: we have some shared goals. We aren't militarily hostile to each other. But they certainly also compete with us, and they pull no punches. Their governments engage in anticompetitive behavior and protectionism, make secret agreements, and sell weapons across the globe. European leaders also widely use anti-Americanism for their domestic political gain, and European populations
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Regarding your friends as mere tactical allies is exactly the point.
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I'm not "regarding" them that way, I'm telling you: they have never been anything more than tactical allies.
Europeans call us their "friends" when they want something; it's propaganda, nothing more. Stop falling for it.
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By that reasoning, the Vatican gua
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Interestingly, the US's friends have also noticed this.
I don't think the US has any "friends" any more.
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Lots of countries could be their friends if they just treated them as equals.
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The NSA is a spy agency. Its job is to spy, which involves secretly doing illegal things in other countries.
Really? Intelligence gathering is more about reading records from parliament (the ones nobody reads). Or showing up at political meets to hear what people say. In transparent democracies (unlike the US), you don't really need to do anything illegal to find out what is going on.
And if you think that's hypocritical, think again I expect European and Asian countries to spy on us too.
Thief thinks every man steals. Most countries don't have offensive intelligence capabilities.
And they certainly don't conduct mass surveillance of civilians, just because you're not an American citizen, doesn't mean you're not civili
Saboteurs? More like daily bread and butter (Score:3)
This is a classic way technical intelligence specialists operate. Lets analyze practical example: the target is a database. The potential attack vectors are following (but obviously not limited to): a)compromised hardware which allows to download data from the server b) compromised software which allows to download data from the server c) compromised specialist (s) which download the data d) intercepted communications,
Rule #1: any gathered data is verified by comparing it to independent source. Rule #2: the sources cannot know about each other. Only if these two rules are met the data can be considered as data which has passed basic verification. "Physical subversion", "blackmail", "infiltration" are day to day activities, the bread and butter, for all those agencies.
Snowden (Score:3, Interesting)
Am I the only one that is still wondering why these "snowden leaks" are still coming out in the way that they are? I mean, are we all going to be sitting around 30 years from now, still hearing about these leaks?
The year is 2045: Snowden leaks - The NSA has been watching all of you guys' teleport activity since the early 1980's! They used physical hardware hacks that you could have never known about... and they're doing it to foreign countries too!
Seriously, it all seems like the information that we're getting is being spooled in a prefabricated way, as to serve the fear propaganda more so than it should. I'm just waiting for the "NSA actually created the universe" leak.
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When Snowden's material runs out, he becomes worthless, so it makes sense for him (and his masters) so string it out as long as possible.
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Snowden didn't have any material for about a year now. He surrendered everything before accepting asylum in Russia, as that was one of their terms for offering him asylum. It's all in hands of journalists now.
Staggered release is done so that problem stays on the news, and people don't forget that his problem persists.
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I'm just waiting for the "NSA actually created the universe" leak.
I don't know about that one, but you might be living in a "the NSA actually created the leak" universe.
Re:Snowden (Score:4, Insightful)
Am I the only one that is still wondering why these "snowden leaks" are still coming out in the way that they are?
Yes.
The rest of us remember the wikileaks document dump and how important stories got did not get appropriate attention because of the sheer volume that was getting reported at once.
Another (perhaps unintended) aspect of the continuous reporting is that almost every time a denial is issued, the NSA is subsequently revealed as lying to the public and Congress.
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No, but you might get sued by some of the other concern trolls [youtube.com] for infringing on their conspiracy theories.
Seriously, as another poster pointed out, it's because a massive dump will be ignored by t
our american friends (Score:3)
I'm from Germany. Ever since it was leaked that the NSA was spying so extensively on our government that by international standards it could reasonably be considered an act of war, I wonder what it'll take for our USA-lapdog chancellor to grow a spine and do more than giving Obama a stern talk.
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Spying on the Government is one thing. But this is mass surveillance. Every system in our countries might be compromised. Every router might be sending the information to the NSA. How to flash a fritzbox so that everyting is deleted? How could this be done with a mandatory router from the ISP?
The Chilling Effect is the problem here. Every second of every day is recorded and our Government conspires with the NSA to get the job (mass surveillance) done.
Spying on our Government is bad enough, but it does not e
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Are you the same Anonymous Coward as above? Being paranoid does not mean that they're not after you. They might. But it makes ongoing discussions very annoying. 9-11 was an inside job in your opinion, yes?
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They all know how to keep the optical sites running data to the US and UK. They know how to pass crypto that is just good enough for German use but is open to the US and UK a
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They know how to pass crypto that is just good enough for German use but is open to the US and UK as used and is kept degraded over decades.
Crypto at an international and US domestic level seems to be favoured front companies, tame staff, turned staff or have staff trained to a mid or top level over years.
It is difficult to compromise open source crypto. True Crypt works. PGP works. Snowdens leaks show us exactly that. Being angry is one thing. Freaking out or not using crypto is not the way to deal with the leaks. Even iMessage is safe. Or red phone. Or Signal. There are many options. If people simply use crypto mass surveillance would at least be more difficult.
For example you could sign up to an voip-provider with nomadic use like easybell and use linphone with zrtp for everyday calls with friends. And fo
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If the crypto is quality and correctly used every time, just follow the use down the tame network to the tame operating system or charm, make friends with the users.
Over time the message entry and decryption side reverts to plain text, thanks to understood OS, tame network, turned staff, users with new friends, new staff, malware or physical access.
when ever a catapillar bites a optical data cable (Score:2)
... I'm quite certain 'elsewhere' a sniffing device is installed.
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Traitor due to the China disclosure (Score:2)
The traitors are all the apparatchiki who routinely violate their oath to the constitution by violating the fourth amendment on a routine basis. Snowden was the only man at the NSA who did his duty.
Your own logic proves you wrong. He did his duty by revealing mass surveillance targeting US civilians. However he **also** violated his oath and committed treason by disclosing cyber operations against China. A country that routinely conducts such operations against the US. So by your criteria, he is a traitor due to the China disclosure. He committed separate acts of disclosure, one commendable and one traitorous.
And we now know how Snowden pays for the rent in China and Russia.
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Re: the guy is a traitor, and so are the reporters (Score:5, Interesting)
My first instinct was to reply to you with a dismissive expletive - thus having shown in my reply as much critical thought as you did in your post.
But I realized that I too once came from the Stephan Decatur [wiktionary.org] school, and should be gentle with a previous self. You see, as one grows older and the rose colored glasses begin to loose their tint, one realizes that one may be patriotic AND critical simultaneously. Couple that with the growing realization that the country which we love has almost certainly committed crimes against her own people, and it becomes a moral imperative for her citizens to wake from their stupor and attempt to regain the power over government and basic human freedoms so eloquently elucidated in our Constitution.
Did Snowden break the law? Certainly. Was the law Constitutional? Not if the Executive Orders were being used to shield malfeasance (and despite Tricky Dick's assert actions, simply because a President does it does not MAKE it legal). Should you, as a responsible citizen you loves his country stop to think on his own for once instead of making a knee jerk assessment? For the sake of the Republic, I hope so,
Re: (Score:2)
Then you're a willfully ignorant nazi shitbag using talking points that turned out to be BS when they were first used against Manning.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
What is the point of US citizenship if there is no difference in treatment? If US citizenship is nearly unique in that there is a tax liability for income earned anywhere in the universe based on that nexus of citizenship, it BETTER be worth something like immunity from NSA spying.
Re: (Score:2)
Is that before or after the angry mob tears most of the NSA bosses to bloody pieces on the streets?
Because it will require some hardcore desperation on part of intelligence to do something that stupid and self-incriminating, and suggests complete lack of options.
Re: (Score:2)
There is? I've been in quite a few kennels and I find the sound to be quite normal.
Of course, I'm not a complete idiot and a raging psychopath who thinks that intelligence agencies go around openly and brutally killing their noisiest critics instead of discrediting them.