China Says It Is the Target of US Hack Attacks 242
An anonymous reader writes "Officials at the Chinese Defense Ministry say hackers from the U.S. have been attacking Chinese military websites. 'The sites were subject to about 144,000 hacking attacks each month last year, two thirds of which came from the U.S., according to China's defense ministry. The issue of cyber hacking has strained relations between the two countries.' This follows recent hacks from people in China on high-profile U.S. sites, as well as a report accusing the Chinese government of supporting a hacking group. '[Defense Ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng] called on U.S. officials to "explain and clarify" what he said were recent U.S. media reports that Washington would carry out "pre-emptive" cyber attacks and expand its online warfare capabilities. Such efforts are "not conducive to the joint efforts of the international community to enhance network security," he said.'"
About time. (Score:4, Insightful)
About time. And preemptive my ass. China has been making state-orchestrated cyber attacks for years now. There's a war in cyberspace, did they just think the U.S. wouldn't show up?
Re:About time. (Score:5, Insightful)
So it's wrong when they do it but not when the US does it, is that what you're saying?
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So it's wrong when they do it but not when the US does it, is that what you're saying?
That depends. Self-defense is not wrong, so if the US is doing it in self-defense, then yes. Since we know the Chinese have been launching attacks against the US for many years now, it seems likely that the US is in fact doing it in self-defense, so yes, it is OK when the US does it but not when they do it. Ideally, neither one would do it, but in the case of war the aggressor is in the wrong (barring any other extenuating circumstances, like the defender attacking it's neighbors, or committing genocide).
Re:About time. (Score:5, Insightful)
Self defense? He started it! No, he started it! No I didn't! Yes you did! It's the stuff of children.
In Britain, we used to have a "War Office". in 1947 they changed that to "The Ministry of Defence". They still do the same thing. It's words. Propaganda.
If you honestly think when China does hacking it's attack, and when the USA does it it's defense, you've fallen for the propaganda.
Do you know what real defense to hacking looks like? It looks like like patching up vulnerabilities. It looks like using better encryption. It looks like not connecting things to the internet that don't need to be connected to it.
Re:About time. (Score:5, Insightful)
Defense also looks like trying to get your own data to see what the other side found out from their hacks of you. Satellite photos of the other side arming? Decrypting their communication? Would those not count as steps towards your own defense? Or would you just close your eyes and plug your ears, build the biggest wall you can, and call that defense?
Besides, China's hacking has been very much in the news lately. How do you know this isn't just China's PR push? How do you know China isn't simply counting a hacked home box sitting on a cable connection as a governmental hack? Don't you think the US would be a bit better about hiding their source?
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Defense also looks like trying to get your own data to see what the other side found out from their hacks of you.
It might involve hiring outside hackers to probe your own defenses and report any breaches they find. But hacking into some foreign government computers to see what they have in case anything of what they have is yours - that's attack, not defense.
Or would you just close your eyes and plug your ears, build the biggest wall you can, and call that defense?
Don't confuse two different issues.
1) What I, you, they or anyone else WOULD do or SHOULD do.
2) The nature of the action. (In this case attack or defense).
Just because you may think your side should do something does not make it defense.
Besides, China's hacking has been very much in the news lately. How do you know this isn't just China's PR push?
How do you know China's hac
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Keep in mind which country spends several hundred million dollars a year on Madison Avenue marketing specialists. I'm not at all surprised that the US press corpse runs regular stories about Chinese hacking, we pay them very well to make sure that happens.
I wonder what percentage of these attacks are actual government actions, and what percentage are random cyber-criminals looking to score. China is one quarter of the world's population, that
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How do you know China isn't simply counting a hacked home box sitting on a cable connection as a governmental hack?
Perhaps we should be asking the same of our government? Whose to say that many of these "Chinese hackers" we keep hearing about aren't, in fact, hackers from elsewhere using compromised machines on Chinese networks?
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So it's wrong when they do it but not when the US does it, is that what you're saying?
That depends. Self-defense is not wrong, so if the US is doing it in self-defense, then yes. Since we know the Chinese have been launching attacks against the US for many years now, it seems likely that the US is in fact doing it in self-defense, so yes, it is OK when the US does it but not when they do it. Ideally, neither one would do it, but in the case of war the aggressor is in the wrong (barring any other extenuating circumstances, like the defender attacking it's neighbors, or committing genocide).
Considering how the US conducts itself in the world, thinking that the US is launching cyber-attacks only in response to Chinese action is incredibly naive. The US has likely been conducting espionage via computer since the capability existed. It amuses me that the US can complain publicly about the Chinese or Iranians without anyone pointing out that the pot is calling the kettle black.
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The US has likely been conducting espionage via computer since the capability existed.
The US/UK were spying on Israel using compromised mainframes as long ago as the 1960's, they also didn't tell their allies they could break WW2 encryption methods.
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So it's wrong when they do it but not when the US does it, is that what you're saying?
Who said that? If you want to argue that war is wrong, fine. I agree, but please, don't even try to suggest that overtly hostile activity, sponsored by a foreign state's military, is not deserving of, at least, response-in-kind. As the GP pointed out, this is a war.
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Its wrong for you to walk up and punch me in the mouth. Its generally considered OK for me to defend myself.
Likewise, if Canada one day decided it didnt like us and invaded, it would be considered "unprovoked" and "problematic". For us to then respond with military force would not.
Re:About time. (Score:4, Insightful)
So it's wrong when they do it but not when the US does it, is that what you're saying?
There's a difference between taking action against a military target and taking action against a civilian entity. When Country A has its military attack civilian and military entities of Country B, but Country B's military only attacks Country B's military, this means two things: 1, Country B is following widely-accepted norms around military action (and Country A is not), and 2, Country B is unlikely to be the primary (initial) aggressor. Counterforce actions have almost always been the realm of a defending nation, while countervalue actions have belonged to aggressive nations.
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Maybe you didn't notice but there has been a cold war going on for ages now. The US has been spying on China pretty aggressively, and China regularly blocks US spy satellites with blinding lasers. The CIA is a para-military organization, not part of the military but doing missions similar to what other country's military intelligence branches do. The US also launched the first salvo in the cyber war.
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We're not talking about the same types of attacks though. I think it's safe to assume all major governments conduct military and diplomatic espionage. However, the US complaint is that the Chinese military is conducting industrial espionage and gives the stolen secrets to their own industry.
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Re:About time. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, in real life outside of liberal art college where everything is abstract, the truth is subjective, and we're all one happy global community of free thinkers (damn I have to go wash my mouth out now).
No matter how much people think we are capable of rising above war, selfishness, ambition, pride, arrogance, etc the fact is that we all have those elements. They are embedded in our DNA. I happen to believe it was because of the fall, but regardless of how it happened I think anyone who is honest with themselves knows that what I'm saying is true. If you think you've risen above it, it's only because you've turned a blind eye to your true nature. Knowing that, and that the Chinese people are every bit as bent on world domination as we are, I'm going to go ahead and side with the guys whose soil I happen to be standing on.
I believe it was Henry Ford who said that whether you think you can or cannot do something, you're right. I think your description may describe the world and humanity as they currently exist. But it forecloses the ability to improve. By resigning ourselves to a future of tribalism, and the chauvinism and hypocrisy that it brings, we miss the opportunity to realize that the boundaries of the tribe are arbitrary. We decide who is in the tribe an who is out. We could expand the tribe to include all of humanity. Or we can reduce it to our own neighborhood. It's up to us, not embedded in our DNA. We reap what we sow, and we get the world we choose.
Re:About time. (Score:4, Insightful)
No, in real life outside of liberal art college where everything is abstract, the truth is subjective, and we're all one happy global community of free thinkers (damn I have to go wash my mouth out now).
No matter how much people think we are capable of rising above war, selfishness, ambition, pride, arrogance, etc the fact is that we all have those elements. They are embedded in our DNA. I happen to believe it was because of the fall, but regardless of how it happened I think anyone who is honest with themselves knows that what I'm saying is true. If you think you've risen above it, it's only because you've turned a blind eye to your true nature. Knowing that, and that the Chinese people are every bit as bent on world domination as we are, I'm going to go ahead and side with the guys whose soil I happen to be standing on.
If you believe in The Fall, then you are likely Christian. Christianity does not subscribe to the "eye-for-an-eye" approach to problem resolution.
The USA is not - despite what some wish to think - a Christian nation, but the founding principles were based in large part on Christianity, which is why things like pre-emptive warfare, torture, and other extreme or retaliatory measures were always considered "un-American" up until 2001. We strove to be better than that and to provide a better example for others. To rise above our baser natures.
Christianity notwithstanding, there is a pretty clear case to be made that endless retaliation Old Testament-style may feel good, but it simply propagates the damage down through generations forever. We have some pretty clear-cut examples in recent history on what happens in countries where they say "Enough is Enough" and stop trying to "balance the scales" versus countries that continue on the same old cycles expecting that one day things will be better.
Having said that, however, there's no virtue in being a doormat, either. If the Chinese attack us, we should take defensive - and if necessary - offensive steps. I only desire that whatever is open and above-board where the world can see and judge. Don't pretend to false virtues, because once established as a liar, it's hard to be believed when you say anything later, even when it's true. Don't do things that you know you'll regret being discovered.
Re:About time. (Score:5, Informative)
About time. And preemptive my ass. China has been making state-orchestrated cyber attacks for years now. There's a war in cyberspace, did they just think the U.S. wouldn't show up?
So has the USA. More facets of the Stuxnet story are slowly being unearthed and it now appears the thing was already under intense development in 2005 [arstechnica.com]. It makes one wonder how widespread this kind of thing really is and how early the various intelligence services started doing it... Post 9/11? In the early 90s? Stuxnet was a pretty sophisticated piece of kit, especially in 2005. It makes these Chinese hack and snatch attacks look a bit crude. Stuxnet was only discovered when the spooks tried to make it 'more aggressive' to increase the infection rate and found out that it's really easy to make it too aggressive and when that happens and your spyware starts infecting civilian computers in large numbers you also blow the lid off the operation.
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About time. And preemptive my ass. China has been making state-orchestrated cyber attacks for years now. There's a war in cyberspace, did they just think the U.S. wouldn't show up?
So has the USA. More facets of the Stuxnet story are slowly being unearthed and it now appears the thing was already under intense development in 2005 [arstechnica.com]. It makes one wonder how widespread this kind of thing really is and how early the various intelligence services started doing it... Post 9/11? In the early 90s?
Yes, of course. The US and any other country has been doing this since the capability was realized. The fact that people get all bothered about the Chinese while seeming to think other countries, including the US, don't do the same thing, indicates to me that a lot of people don't really understand how the world works.
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More facets of the Stuxnet story are slowly being unearthed and it now appears the thing was already under intense development in 2005 [arstechnica.com]. It makes one wonder how widespread this kind of thing really is and how early the various intelligence services started doing it... Post 9/11? In the early 90s?
Possibly earlier than that - it's a pretty well established idea that all the cool tech we see coming out today, was being designed and implemented by secretive government organizations for at least a decade prior. The SR-71, the internet, Stuxnet, and uncountable other technologies were used to wage war against the enemies of the US government long before the public even knew such things existed.
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If you seriously think that West hasn't done several times more of the same long before China clued in, I have land on the moon to sell you.
But we're also much better at propaganda. It's valuable to scream "I'm a victim" on every corner after you've beaten the shit out of someone much weaker then you who doesn't know that he's supposed to vocally complain. That's one of the things that East really loses in - they are afraid to lose face so they don't complain. As a result it starts to look like they're the
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My guess is we've been at it for longer and much better since you *aren't* hearing anything about it.
Re:About time. (Score:5, Insightful)
FUCK CHINA !!!! A bunch of needle dick nerds that steal American ideas.
"Steal" implies that once they take the idea, the person who had it originally does not anymore. That's just silly hyperbole.
No, China "borrows" American ideas, then figures out how to mass produce them cheaper than we can. It's called capitalism, it is the basis of both the Chinese and American economies. Hell, if anything, we should be proud - American capitalism won out over Russian communism, isn't that what the Joe McCarthy's of this nation always wanted?
We should do all we can to destroy them.
Yea, because scorched earth policies always work out for the best, especially when nuclear-armed states are involved.
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Didn't the US get quite a significant economical boost with wholesale infringement of European IP in its early days?
On the contrary... (Score:4, Insightful)
...this kind of stuff will absolutely enhance network security. It's geopolitical stability that's in danger in the long term. But if we didn't destroy ourselves with nukes during the cold war, I think we'll come out of this one okay too.
Really? (Score:5, Informative)
Who would have guessed the US was engaged in offensive cyber operations? [army.mil]
Re:Really? (Score:4, Funny)
Those training methods are classified. Please redact your previous statements
Sincerely,
NSA
Pot, meet kettle... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, can't find it in me to feel at all sorry for them.
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Indeed; this is definitely a case of needing to call the Waaambulance.
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Tor Nodes (Score:3, Funny)
Ooooh Website attacks (Score:2, Informative)
While China continues to loot the US.
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What if.. (Score:4, Interesting)
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You mean like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow_Never_Dies [wikipedia.org]
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Anybody ever thought that maybe it's a 3rd party group doing the work? spoofing IPs? etc.. Sheesh.
Really? Do you think that the IPs have not been spoofed? The hard part is tracking down the source of the attacks through all the various agents running on infected hosts -- and finding the sources that do not originate from an IP. Besides, what is the point of doing that? What do you think is the strategic goal of such a scenario?
Re:What if.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Anybody ever thought that maybe it's a 3rd party group doing the work? spoofing IPs? etc.. Sheesh.
Or maybe they hacked our Internets and burned down our firewall? Seriously, IP spoofing is not as useful as the movies make it out to be.
Spoofing IPs is easy, but it's only effective in a few situations, such as when you're sending a message with no expectation of a reply (e.g. spam e-mail, DDoS attack, etc.). If you're trying to break into someone's system, you need to be able to get a response back, and that means providing an IP address you can be reached at to your target. Now, you may try to anonymize your IP address somehow, such as through the use of proxies, VPNs, and other such technologies that can allow you to hide behind or within someone else's system, or you may spoof an IP address of a zombie computer you control and can use to route return packets to you, but at some point, an IP address you control needs to be provided to someone else, otherwise you have no way of getting back a response, and that address can be traced.
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SPECTRE.
It's SPECTRE - on both sides. They're attacking BOTH sides, trying to start a cyber war, so they can profit by selling both sides new cyber war weapons. It's genius, I tell you. And now, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die.
World is changing (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a pretty good option for small nations who want to get back at larger ones.
Step 1: buy server time with bitcoin from someone in China
Step 2: hack some highly visible US companies with basic java exploits.
Step 3: stand back and watch them hack each other for the next 10 years with professional grade stuff.
Only 144,000 a month.... (Score:2)
Moooommm, they're doing it toooooooo! (Score:4, Funny)
Don't make me have to stop this car and separate you two!
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Don't make me have to stop this car and separate you two!
This is far more profound a commentary that it appears.
Two wrongs never, ever make a right, no matter how much one may try to justify it.
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So, explain the death penalty then. Or, for that matter, the entire Iraq, er, 'conflict' since it ultimately had nothing to do with the stated reasons. Some people believe god has told them that revenge is good (an eye for an eye).
People try all the time to commit a second wrong in response to the first one.
It's a nice platitude, but it's far from universally applied. People like revenge and retaliation. Infer what you wil
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So, explain the death penalty then.
It's wrong - I know some people will bitch about the cost of lifetime imprisonment, but what those people fail to realize is A) it's actually more expensive to execute a prisoner than to keep them locked up for life, [deathpenalty.org] and B) if our nation didn't focus so much treasure on incarcerating non-violent drug offenders and the like, there'd be plenty of money for lifetime imprisonments.
the entire Iraq, er, 'conflict'
Also wrong, for so many reasons...
Some people believe god has told them that revenge is good (an eye for an eye).
People have used 'god told me to' as a justification for fucked up behavior for millennia. Still w
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I'm not saying there isn't value to the expression ... but it's not a natural law or anything like that, and people don't seem to follow it for the most part.
It's a moral observation that it would be better if we played nicely, but in the end, it's a sound bite -- which pretty much makes it a platitude. It's a nice sentiment,
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I'm not saying there isn't value to the expression ...
Then you shouldn't have used the term 'platitude.'
It's a moral observation that it would be better if we played nicely, but in the end, it's a sound bite -- which pretty much makes it a platitude. It's a nice sentiment, I just see no evidence for it in actual human behavior in general.
Go visit a prison. I'm certain you'll meet all sorts of people who wronged someone who wronged them, and are thus suffering the punishment, no matter how right they thought they were at the time.
Then there's the whole thorny issue of who gets to decide 'right' and 'wrong' -- the Amish, or the Pastafarians?
Shouldn't be all that thorny; the concept of Mores and Folkways [wikipedia.org] is pretty well established in human culture.
It basically boils down to one simple question: Would you like it if someone did that to you? If the answer is 'no,' perhaps you should reconsider your actions
"military websites" (Score:5, Insightful)
hackers from the U.S. have been attacking Chinese military websites.
Wake me up when the U.S. military is hacking Chinese civilian/banking computers or trying to SSH into everything.
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hackers from the U.S. have been attacking Chinese military websites.
Wake me up when the U.S. military is hacking Chinese civilian/banking computers or trying to SSH into everything.
Wake you up when they're doing it, or wake you up when it comes out that they're doing it?
Re:"military websites" (Score:4, Insightful)
China suing US (Score:5, Funny)
Big Difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if this were true (and all signs point that it's just a knee-jerk reaction by China), what the Chinese are reporting is attacks against their military infrastructure from US IPs. This is way different than what the NYT and Mandiant claim the Chinese are doing which is leveraging the capabilities of it's cyber army (god I hate that term) against private corporations for the betterment of it's government controlled businesses.
That's a huge difference. Yes the US is probably targeting the Chinese army but it sure as heck isn't specifically targeting Huawei and giving the information over to Cisco.
Seriously China, grow up.
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while(!done) {
string usIPAddress = addressList[random.Next(addressList.Length)];
logFile.WriteLine(usIPAddress + ": connection established.. blah blah blah");
done = logFile.Length == 144000;
}
PresentLogFileAsProof(logFile);
We really need cajones in this country (Score:2)
We need a leader who is willing to quote Kang saying "You've committed a wanton act of war!"
Seriously, what is it going to take before people in our government are willing to publicly accuse China of acts of war?
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And the phrase YOU are looking for is "tener cojones"
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Okay, so this gringo doesn't know the correct spelling. At least the intent is there unlike pasty white people who roll their R's in order to pander to activist latino groups. Pronouncing it "Dorrrrrrrritos" doesn't make them Mexican food.
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Seriously, what is it going to take before people in our government are willing to publicly accuse China of acts of war?
A sudden and marked decrease in free-trade lobbying dollars.
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Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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AS is their plan. They do NOT want to loose 3rd world status. It gives them many exemptions on the world stage.
"The Red Chinese" wow, 1950 called, they want your mentality back.
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China is very poor at public relation marketing and packaging. The government hasn't really needed to spit out anything other than blunt propaganda that nobody in China believe (go check out comments in any Chinese news forum to see.) As their society becomes modernized with more and more PR, marketing people and lawyers trained in the West, they will eventually refine their PR just like us. They will enter the era of marketing just like us.
The USA, on the other hand, has been very very good at that, both g
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It would have been nicer if he had the balls to say it BEFORE it already started happening. Or even answered Russia request to help the transition.
Worst. President. Ever.
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Reagan would've just funneled arms to China through Israel to bribe them to stop. Then, made a half-assed ambiguous apology on national TV when he was caught.
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But we do need someone to point out that what China is doing is wrong, that they don't allow free speech, that they are horribly oppressing the Tibetans and other minorities, and that they are hurting the environment. Instead we get politicians who go to China and hope they will continue to trade with us if we ignore their human rights violations.
Would it be too much if once in a while, when he was talking about China anyway, he added something
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they don't really give a shit what outsiders think.
Believe it or not, they do.
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Also, is your point really that they haven't had freedom of speech for 5,000 years, so they can't handle it now?
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So you are admitting one of our great allies the Germans have no freedom of speech?
Yes, and for good reason.
Umm, so WHAT is this reason?
Go find out, and get wiser. Or don't, and remain ignorant.
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Typical chinese propaganda strategy (Score:4, Insightful)
The point of this announcement is to distract from the criticism they are receiving for launching hack attacks by painting a picture of everyone does it. So whether its true or not they would make this claim. I would believe they are receiving hack attacks from the US, but 2/3rds of them having a US origin sounds suspicious.
Robber Barons (Score:2)
Behind this is the larger problem that we have no particular way of resolving international disputes on the internet. The net maps poorly to international boundaries. And if national law on hacking is young, clunky and often pretty awful, effect international action is pretty much nonexistent.
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coughBULLSHITcough (Score:4, Insightful)
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I see intrusion attempts from China and I blame China. Check your SSH logs dude!
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IMporant distinct need to be made (Score:2)
"US Hack attacks" and US based Hack Attacks are two separate things, and it's an important clarification.
SO less then 50,000 attacks, all of last year from computers reporting to be from the US.
I mean, people need to stop, and I don't want to excuse it, but lets not get; crazy in the head about this.
144k hack attacks per month against web sites (Score:2)
If Chinese checked their state forestry administration (SFA) web servers my guess they will see the same patterns of "attacks". e.g. random scans from botnets.
There is a real problem with definition what constitutes an attack. We also routinely see US peeps in government and industry who should know better sit in front of congress and pop off scary specious figures to bend reality twoard their policy goals.
With all of these "we're being attacked" rumblings from government, warnings from Penetta and Sunday
Advancement of Network Security (Score:4, Insightful)
> Such efforts are "not conducive to the joint efforts of the international community to enhance network security," he said.
Perhaps statements like "we're just defending ourselves" are not productive towards network security. But cyber-attacking China? China cyber-attacking the US? You must be kidding.
Even bacteria "know" that being attacked causes the greatest advances in defenses. What greater motivator can there be than an active and verifiable threat?
Of course (Score:2)
Blame Wall Street (Score:2)
Evidently they are some deviants living in a cave, completely oblivious to the offshoring of all those jobs, all that technology, and all the investment to China, and Micro$oft opening their source code to them some years back, and Boeing's subsidiary, Narus, selling them the software to make it easier to arrest, torturne, incarcerate and/or execute the pro-democracy and rights acti
Chuck Hagel says... (Score:2)
"American laws prohibit any action including hacking that damages Internet security." He added that "to accuse the American military of launching cyberattacks without solid proof is unprofessional and baseless."
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US government & corporate groups are hacking too. I cant wait for the "blah blah no proof" bullshit next.
More likely that the Chinese count every spam email as "hack attack".
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US government & corporate groups are hacking too. I cant wait for the "blah blah no proof" bullshit next.
More likely that the Chinese count every spam email as "hack attack".
More likely that the Cabal wants WWIII so they can ramp up the NWO.
Re: Typical Political BS (Score:4, Informative)
Further, since we can't trust the media to actually dig into the actual truth on this or any issue, the Chinese likely will be successful in their efforts.
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George Washington could TOTALLY beat up Mao Zedong.
Wooden teeth do make excellent fist-packs.
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What about this so-called "Great Firewall"
Built out of minnow traps, apparently.