Iranian Crackdown Goes Global 313
An anonymous reader writes "Tehran's leadership faces its biggest crisis since it first came to power in 1979, as Iranians at home and abroad attack its legitimacy in the wake of June's allegedly rigged presidential vote. An opposition effort, the 'Green Movement,' is gaining a global following of regular Iranians who say they never previously considered themselves activists. The regime has been cracking down hard at home. And now, a Wall Street Journal investigation shows, it is extending that crackdown to Iranians abroad as well. Part of the effort involves tracking the Facebook, Twitter and YouTube activity of Iranians around the world, and identifying them at opposition protests abroad. People who criticize Iran's regime online or in public demonstrations are facing threats intended to silence them."
Facebook spam? (Score:5, Interesting)
I know this sounds odd, but it makes we want to get a million people who are not Iranians and put enough information on our Facebook pages to at least slow the Iranian govt. down, by making them wade through it.
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amen
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good idea... But what should we publish? Shouldn't it be in Persian?
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:5, Insightful)
We should find photos relating to the current leadership and their families, photoshop them to be pro Green Movement, then add them to any fake profiles created. I'm sure the bastards have bought facial recognition software by now and I feel it should be given a good workout.
I suppose that this is meant to be funny. I assume that it should be obvious that actually doing this would be seen as evidence for all the things that the current regime is saying? that non-Iranians are planting false evidence on the internet, and thus, by inference, everything they say is true: the rebellion is being done by non-Iranians, that they are deceitful, and that the internet is being used to spread lies about Iran.
I hate to keep saying things that make people accuse me of being an idealist, but, as a general thing, it is desirable to counter falsehood, deceit, and manipulation with truth, not with falsehood, deceit and manipulation.
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Damnit! I just looked for the moderation button. I've lost my unused mod points.
Geoffrey is right on target. It's ALWAYS in the best interests of everyone involved to counter propaganda and oppression with the TRUTH!! Please don't give the tyrants free ammunition with which to convince the oppressed that THEY are right!
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:4, Interesting)
Out of curiosity - did they have other items in the backpacks or were they empty?
I'm thinking of papers that would take a while to read through but be completely legit, which would slow down things even more.
That reminds me of an old espionage story - an US intelligence officer was frequently in Moscow (or was employed by the embassy) and now and then he went out and purchased a set of various newspapers/magazines. Sat down on a park bench and then took up a pen and marked or wrote something down. Then he started walking again and handed out a newspaper or magazine to a random person. Imagine the amount of wasted work that the KGB had to do.
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a large number of Iranian and Iranian-American friends. Many have participated in Green movement protests in the DC area. Most of them have changed their names on Facebook since the elections, and many have obfuscated their photos or replaced them with pro-Green banners.
I thought this was probably paranoid, but given recent these developments it seems very prudent.
What I worry is that, even with their names changed on Facebook, their old names could possibly be found via the Wayback Machine or some other web archive. Any issues here?
(Reluctantly posting anon in case the Iranian regime starts poking through Slashdot looking for people-with-Iranian friends. Now *that* seems paranoid but...)
Re:Facebook spam? (Score:5, Informative)
Having had a friend who lost most of her family in a great purge after the last Iranian revolution, this doesn't at all seem paranoid to me. She and her entire family here are still afraid to speak up, for sake of the lives of the family members she still had back in Iran.
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This could easily be their fervent volunteers, not just hired suits. Hitler youths are useful.
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If they're actually out to get you, it's not paranoia.
Happened in the 1970's in Boston (Score:2)
In the late 1970's there were many Iranian college students in the Boston/Cambridge area (I was at MIT) and they would participate in protests against the Shah. In order to protect their families back home they had to wear masks to protests as they believed Iranian agents were in the US taking photographs and tracking their movements. So the concept is not new even though the regime and the tracking technology has changed dramatically. Talk about "deja vu".
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If the overwhelming majority of Iranians (like the overwhelming majority of Poles) truly support democracy, human rights, and peace with Israel, then a liberal Western democracy will arise -- without any violence.
So that brutal violence in the protests following the election was what exactly?
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All well and good, but a democratic tyranny is still a tyranny.
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Seeing as how Iran can ban anyone from running for any reason, why bother rigging a vote illegally; they already can legally.
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> A failed "colour" revolution sponsored by the USA by US aligned factions in Iran. All the real evidence points to ...all of the shouting Iranians probably have something to do with it.
> Ahmadinejad actually having won the election but we still get repeated hints of vote rigging in all the media.
> Seldom actually saying why, just saying that it's said that they were rigged. Just the same old "if you
Tehran may very well be a "blue city" in the middle of a red state but it's still what's visible.
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Heh! Yes, the last bit would be hard to swallow. However, there is in fact evidence. A lot of it right out in the open. You tend not to see much of it in the mainstream press, but for example, the US Congress approved US$10million for promoting anti-government groups in I
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Re:The Grotesquely Ugly Truth (Score:5, Insightful)
While I don't agree that the majority of Iranians support their government, a large enough minority does to make a quick transition to some type of truly representative governing impossible without violence.
What I absolutely agree with is the idea that the US, the UN and everyone else needs to stay out of the way and not become a distraction or 'common enemy'. The greatest good we can do in America is to be less dependent on oil, lowering the price. Right now a little bit of isolationism would help force them to get their own house in order. In time.
Re:The Grotesquely Ugly Truth (Score:5, Interesting)
Respectfully, I think justification for Iran's nuclear program is a crock of shit. Iran has roughly 10% of the world's total proven petroleum reserves [wikipedia.org]. Iran is the world's fourth largest oil producer and is OPEC's second-largest producer after Saudi Arabia. At 2006 rates of production, Iran's oil reserves would last 98 years if no new oil was found.
Their problem is that Iran has one of the most inefficient economies in the world. It has a large public sector, with an estimated 60% of the economy directly controlled and centrally planned by the state. The combined budgets of the religious foundations [Bonyads] are said to make up as much as half that of the central government. Combination of price controls and subsidies, particularly on food and energy, continues to weigh down the economy, and contraband, administrative controls, widespread corruption, and other rigidities undermine the potential for private sector-led growth. High oil prices in recent years have enabled Iran to amass nearly US$ 97 billion in foreign exchange reserves. Yet this increased revenue has not eased economic hardships, which include double-digit unemployment and inflation. References [1] [wikipedia.org] [2] [cia.gov]
I would suggest that Iran has every opportunity in the world of becoming a prosperous, modern nation if they simply reformed and diversified their economy over the next 50 years. Nuclear power is the last thing they need right now. Once they achieve a modern, diversified, efficient economy, energy technologies will have advanced to the point that there will be a number of options they will be able to take advantage of, such as enhanced oil recovery techniques. Even now, there may exist other options they don't appear to have considered, such a tidal/wave/thermalcline power from the Persian Gulf or perhaps geothermal, solar or wind energy production.
In my opinion this mad rush to develop nuclear technology makes no sense from an energy perspective, when their top priority should be economic reform. In just a few short years, if they went at that goal with the same determination that they pursue nuclear technology now, the Iranian people could enjoy prosperity and a bright future rather than the double-digit inflation they suffer now.
Right Now (Score:5, Insightful)
When in the last century has the US actually tried not interfering with *anything*?
Right now we are doing exactly that, bending over backwards in fact to say just about nothing about the protests or questioning whatsoever the legitimacy of the current regime in Iran.
And what does it get us? The exact same rhetoric they have always used. When U.S. involvement they complain about is imaginary continuing to not get involved can hardly stop the complaints. Back in WW2 the soviet line is we were causing the potato famine by dropping evil U.S. Potato Bugs from Colorado on the fields. In reality they had stripped away all sorts of trees which meant the birds moved out which meant bugs flourished...
You can never appease a chronic complainer. You can only stop the complaining.
Naked Dictatorship (Score:2)
That's what Fareed Zakaria said Iran has now become. They can no longer claim to represent the people of Iran, and eventually will decay and fail. In the meantime, it is gut wrenchingly scary what average Iranians face in trying to reform their own government. It's a horrible reminder of the cost of liberty.
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To have pride in your liberty it must cost something, you must have earned it. its a cruel truth. Iraqis wont have pride in their liberty because they did not choose it, they are only accepting it. If the Iranian people can win, with or without international assistance, they will have pride in their freedom because they earned it.
Re:Naked Dictatorship (Score:5, Insightful)
A Little Off (Score:5, Interesting)
While your example, Canada, didn't struggle to have liberty, they did earn it. As a people, they got together and chose to live in a free, open nation. Put another way, no one gave it to them. Which is the problem with Iraq. The US (my home) is trying to give it to them. That doesn't take away from the value of any such liberty, but it does bring into question the staying power of it.
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It's not a question of staying power -- it's a question of whether Iraq was liberated.
Re:Naked Dictatorship (Score:4, Interesting)
"I don't think bloody revolution is the only path to democracy."
It may not be the only path, but the required path is decided by the opposition.
If they are friendly and weak, the Ghandi method works.
If they eventually tire of their political charade, they shut it down (Gorbachev is heroic for doing this.)
If they think they are anointed by their imaginary celestial friend, they require enthusiastic liquidation in the manner of the French Revolution.
(A beautiful act, and worthy of emulation.)
If they are inherently logical and nationalistic, they can be seduced by capitalism and the tasty wealth reform brings with it. (Beijing.)
I think your idea of "beauty" is warped. (Score:3, Insightful)
> If they think they are anointed by their imaginary celestial friend, they require enthusiastic liquidation in the manner of the French Revolution.
(A beautiful act, and worthy of emulation.)
If you think that chaotically seizing and killing anyone who appeared to be rich or who was denounced by someone loudly enough is "worthy of emulation," you're quite nuts. I mean, it's not like they call it the Reign of Terror [wikipedia.org]. Maybe you like it because among the revolutionaries were many atheists as well as those
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"I don't think bloody revolution is the only path to democracy."
No, but it's a lot more exciting that way! Peaceful Democracy is boring... Nobody wants to see that.
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yes and yes.
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particularly policies that have to be VOTED in
While I agree with you on the whole (this is about a totally different topic) I wouldn't exactly call the bills being "voted" on, especially not by the general public.
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I dunno, the Puritan-founded USA never really renounced Christianity, but it's more or less held political Christianity far enough at bay to remain a reasonably good country as far as liberty goes (and most of the areas where its liberty could be better have to do with terrorism/security/drug paranoia rather than religion). Not sure it'd be easy for a country full of fundamentalist true-believing Muslims (or other religious folks) to produce an Enlightenment-style secular democracy, but I'm not sure Bolshev
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That is the trick with the puritan founded USA. No one version of puritan's ideology could take hold. The fact the puritans came here fleeing other religious groups. Those that made it and eventually founded it realized that there had to be peace between them all in order to succeed. hence religious freedom.
Sometimes I think it is a shame that all those puritans moved into the censorship business. Then again without them there would we collapse like Rome did? Will We yet?
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without them there would we collapse like Rome did? Will We yet?
Just look outside of the gates and try to count the barbarians. They make quite a crowd, I'd say.
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You seem to forget that collapse of Rome was into fervent Christianity.
In fact, conversion to Christianity, adopting it as the state religion, came a century before Fall of Rome
revolt (Score:4, Insightful)
What I appreciate about this situation is that the Iranian people are standing up for them selves. Makes me want to help them. Something along the lines of supporting a justified patriot.
I dont care for the Afghan or Iraq wars because the people didnt stand up for themselves so I dont think that the rest of the civilized world shoudl sacrifice our soldiers lives for them. I think you will find many people much more willing to help the Iranians because they will stand up for themselves.
Re:revolt (Score:5, Informative)
What I appreciate about this situation is that the Iranian people are standing up for them selves. Makes me want to help them. Something along the lines of supporting a justified patriot.
Standing up for themselves like they did in 1953 [wikipedia.org] or in 1979 [wikipedia.org]?
It's meaningless to be glad that "the Iranian people are standing up for them selves" without looking at why they're doing it and how Iran got there. The Iranian people had a secular, democratically elected government and the CIA overthrew it because the Brits were unhappy that their oil fields got nationalized. Iran is arguably a virulently anti-western throwback because of 30 years of sanctions slowly strangling the country.
Re:revolt (Score:4, Interesting)
Argh! Fuck off already. This Ron Paulian junk pisses me off more than anything. People who didn't know shit about Iran just a couple of years ago by learning one fact about Iran's history think they know what Iranians think of west.
The coup is FUCKING FORGOTTEN, amerite?! The real people of Iran have always blamed it almost exclusively on Britain and Ayatollah Kashani; US was and is considered a mere agent of the British perpetrators. Regardless, all of this is gone and past history. We don't hold never-ending grudges.
The current regime and it's "President" Ahmadinejad are followers of the same ideologies as Ayatollah Kashani.
We are not virulently Anti-American. I remember when Iraq was attacked people on buses and cabs talked about how lucky Iraqis are that they are getting rid of Saddam and we're stuck with the shitty regime. They wished US attacked Iran instead, yes that might seem unbelievable to followers of his majesty Ron Paul. Of course that wish changed when bombs started going off on a daily bases, US decided to stay and everything went to hell. That is basically one of the reasons Iran helped with making Iraq unstable to avoid any such wishes by people to get real.
You should turn the TV off, get off the couch and take a trip to Iran to understand how Iranians not only not hate, but most of them like Americans.
And lastly on sanctions, again nobody blames US. Khomeini has a famous quote that kinda translates to "US can't do shit to us". Well, the current state of Iran shows that he was very wrong, and we blame him for this mess. He created an enemy and the enemy acted like one.
You said "arguably", so here's the argument.
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After the first Gulf War the Shiites in the south of Iraq revolted against Saddam. We foolishly allowed him to fly helicopter gunships and he crushed them. The Shiites took us up on our suggestion to overthrow Saddam and we left them high and dry. We did slightly better by the Kurds in the north, and under the cover of the no-fly zone they basically carved out an autonomous province before the war in 2003 ever started - our 'invasion' there consisted of parachuting in an airborne brigade to work with the lo
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can the previous post be flagged -100 Flamebait?
I pay me taxes and I participate in my freedom. My Grandfather and my line back to out immigration has fought to gain the freedom I enjoy today and the keep that freedom. Our policies and methods are not perfect and we make mistakes but many of those 'mistakes' turned into effective paybacks to other countries that enjoy freedom today. France for instance. France saw that American was standing up for itself and help (though there are other motivations and
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we in turn defended and liberated France when they were in need with the obvious help of the rest of the allied forces
After America had been dragged into the war by the Japanese at Pearl Harbour, of course. We're grateful for the help, but the US took its sweet time to join in with the rest of us.
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true enough.
France helped liberate American to promote french interests. Just because there were multiple reasons doesnt lessen the result or intent.
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The Taliban aren't well-off, and THEY are willing to suicide to fight a regime they oppose.
If you want power in those regions, that level of toughness, dedication, and utter ruthlessness sets the bar. Play in those leagues
or be enslaved to those who will.
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Your comment steems strange. My statement clearly states that Iranians are standing up for themselves in this endeavor. I also suggest that other people are probably more willing to help because of this.
just a matter of time (Score:5, Interesting)
the best thing to do is to wait it out. this is the first time that the new generation is old enough to get involved in politics, and they made a very strong statement. over 70% of the country is under 30 due to the iran-iraq war, which basically wiped out a whole generation. this government is a legacy outdated establishment that is totally incompatible with Iran. The country was run by a foreign minority of non-Persians who used religion to control a country of children. Well, the kids grew up and they will rebel. Iran has a strong history and culture, and is too mature to put up with this crap for much longer.
Families, eh? (Score:4, Funny)
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The Iranian people deserve better than the lying cheating sack of shits that run the government ... at least that's what my Dad told me.
the thing is, his dad told him the exact same thing. Only his generation overthrew the corrupt regime and replaced it with a new one that would bring an era of peace and happiness... oh wait. Maybe 3rd time lucky?
Identifiable... (Score:3, Insightful)
Rule 1 of opposing an oppressive government on the interwebs: DO NOT put personally identifiable information on the same page as your opposing views.
Not much the US can do (Score:3, Insightful)
The bad thing is, the US can't do much about this. If they press the hardliners too much, the pushback against that will push moderate Iranians into the hardliner's arms and unite the country behind them.
This happened in 2003-2004 when Iraq got invaded. People changed from considering the US as a superpower from afar to having military garrisons on two of Iran's borders and propaganda [1] going 24/7 about a pincer attack just hours away. Of course, this drove the moderate Iranians right into the arms of the extremists until recently.
The big reason the hardliners are having *any* resistance by moderates is that the evil bad bear of the US isn't making any headway with Iranians these days. They know that the US doesn't have the manpower or the technology for a sustained invasion of Iran in a conventional manner, and a nuclear attack just is out of the question.
[1]: The propaganda machines were even in the US. Infowars kept having articles that the Iran bombings were only hours away, and kept having those for years on end.
Actually (Score:5, Insightful)
The invasion of Iraq may have helped a little in that way. As you said, many Iranians were extremely worried that the US would use Iraq as a stopping point to invade their country. What's more, they saw a demonstration of the US's true power, that an army which could hold them at bay (remember the Iran-Iraq war) was swept aside in a matter of weeks. As you said, there was heavy propaganda related to this at home and abroad.
Ok however, the threat didn't materialize. The US stayed in Iraq and did nothing towards Iran. Even when there were some fluff ups over things like a boat supposedly drifting in to Iranian waters, nothing happened.
What something like that does is cause people to question the propaganda. They start to say "You know, maybe the US really isn't bad like they are saying, they haven't made a move towards Iran at all." The government keeps the propaganda going, and yet the propaganda shows an increasing disconnect with reality. The US elects a new leader that tries to engage them in discourse and still the propaganda continues.
Then of course there's the blatantly rigged election and what does the US do? Nothing militarily, and the citizens speak up in support for Iran.
That kind of stuff can lead to people really questioning the government line. The US quite clearly has the ability to crush their military and destroy their cities if they wish, yet there has been no move to do so. That tells them that what they've been hearing is not the truth.
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You know, that is pure speculation. There is absolutely no evidence that the election was rigged. Ahaminejad is very popular and has previously won election with big margins. There is no evidence that the Iranians are "realizing how bad they have been" and are changing their minds en masse. There is no evidence of a great uprising taking place inside Iran. Yes, thousands of students protested in Teheran a few months ago, which is great, but millions of people on the country-side didn't.
But obviously, spread
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There is circumstantial evidence (Score:5, Interesting)
There is circumstantial evidence [pbs.org], and then there's the way the Ahaminejad and his supporters have acted. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This regime seems to be like the ZANU PF in Zimbabwe. Violent, mad, megalomaniacs.
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Iran is a whole new ball game; and a war there would not be easy, unless the atoms are split or the atoms are banded up together--which is basically suicid
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Imagine 30,000 fresh troops soon to arrive on Iran's eastern boarder [Afghanistan], along with, say, 50,000 seasoned troops on Iran's western boarder [from Iraq]. That would be one US soldier for every 10 Iranians, supported by the combined might of the US and Israeli air forces and US Navy ships in the Persian Gulf. You think that
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There's an app for that.. (Score:4, Funny)
called iRan
Re:There's an app for that.. (Score:5, Funny)
Customers who bought iRan also bought iAtollah.
Keep talking. (Score:2)
Iran isn't doing this alone! (Score:5, Interesting)
When Iran cracked down on their citizens last time, during this summer's protests, Western companies such as Siemens and Nokia provided them the technology to do this.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124562668777335653.html [wsj.com]
I also highly doubt they're building massive databases with worldwide surveillance on Iranian citizens -- for the purposes of going after their relatives within Iran -- with their own home-brew technologies.
This takes some scary stuff some Iranian University students could not simply hash together -- things like deep-packet inspection of all internet traffic and massive data-mining algorithms in the scope of millions upon millions of megabytes.
Re:Iran isn't doing this alone! (Score:4, Interesting)
When Iran cracked down on their citizens last time, during this summer's protests, Western companies such as Siemens and Nokia provided them the technology to do this.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124562668777335653.html [wsj.com]
I also highly doubt they're building massive databases with worldwide surveillance on Iranian citizens -- for the purposes of going after their relatives within Iran -- with their own home-brew technologies.
This takes some scary stuff some Iranian University students could not simply hash together -- things like deep-packet inspection of all internet traffic and massive data-mining algorithms in the scope of millions upon millions of megabytes.
Here are a few factoids for you:
1- When it comes to computer science Iran is a world leader that is only rivaled by USA and England.
2- Iran has the most comprehensive and sophisticated surveillance and monitoring infrastructure in the world
3- Your assumptions about Iranian students are absolutely incorrect. Not only can they keep up with what is going on around the world, but they are leaders and innovators. For example the most successful immigrant minority in the USA is Iranians according to the CIA factbook, and Sharif University has beat MIT, Caltech, Stanford, and Carnegie Mellon in programming and robotics competitions.
Re:Iran isn't doing this alone! (Score:5, Interesting)
1- When it comes to computer science Iran is a world leader that is only rivaled by USA and England.
Given the existence of China, India, Japan, Israel, and Germany, I have an extremely hard time believing you.
For example the most successful immigrant minority in the USA is Iranians according to the CIA factbook
Link or it's a lie, given the Indian-American success stories.
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1- When it comes to computer science Iran is a world leader that is only rivaled by USA and England.
Given the existence of China, India, Japan, Israel, and Germany, I have an extremely hard time believing you.
For example the most successful immigrant minority in the USA is Iranians according to the CIA factbook
Link or it's a lie, given the Indian-American success stories.
About the most successful minority I'm not sure, but I saw a program on BBC about Iranians in America which said Iranian immigrants are the second highest educated group after Germans. They obtained that from census data.
In terms of financial success, they are doing rather well. Anecdotal evidence of which:
From Wikipedia on Beverly Hills [wikipedia.org]: .. the Middle East .."[15]
Like the rest of Los Angeles County, Beverly Hills is home to a large Persian/ Iranian community. There has been a recent estimate that Iranians represent as much as 40% of the city's population and 50% of the students in public schools.[14] This estimate is not immediately evident in Census Bureau data as the Census Bureau defines the "White" race category as "people having origins in any of the original peoples of
The former mayor, Jimmy Delshad is Iranian born too.
president of what? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Did you hear about what happened to Maziar Bahari [www.cbc.ca]? The Basij and the Revolutionary Guard are holding the real power in Iran right now, and they've gone completely insane. They thought a Daily Show spoof was real espionage and jailed and tortured a man because of it.
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Maybe it doesn't, but unrest such as this has a way of forcing a regime change. If people question the legitimacy of the election of puppet figurehead, the next logical thing to question the legitimacy of is the governance of those who actually hold the power. If you hold any sort of power in this situation, you don't want anyone questioning anything, not your puppet government, not the real government.
It matters, in fact a lot (Score:2, Informative)
The two comments above are correct. Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of Islamic revolution had both power and legitimacy, from both people and army/guards' loyalty. He was also a real Ayatollah in terms of religious knowledge and acceptance. Khamenei, the current leader had none of these. He became an Ayatollah and the Supreme Leader almost overnight, through mostly his fanatic followers in guards calling him so and mildly threatening the Experts Council into making him the Supreme Leader. The rightful repla
no, you're wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
there were two schools of thought in iran since the 1979 revolution:
1. its a democracy. the whole supreme leader bs is just for window dressing
2. its a theocracy. the whole elections bs is just to appease the crowds
this central crisis in the iranian government seems to have been resolved in june 2009, with iran going the theocratic route, which is the substance of your comment
but its actually going a third route: military dictatorship, with the supreme leadership bs as window dressing AND the elections bs as crowd appeasement
the supreme leader is actually now hostage of the elite revolutionary guard, he has no real power. ahmadinejad is an old hand of the revolutionary guard. watch the next leader of iran to be handpicked from the revolutionary guard and "elected" by the people and "approved" by the ayatollah. now, the whole of the complex iranian government apparatus is under their sway and influence. the central unanswered schism between theocracy and democracy in the previous complex government arrangement has meant someone had to fill the power vacuum, and it has been filled: by the military
either way, the crowd appeasement obviously isn't working. the people of iran are pissed, and as in any country where the will of the people is not addressed, the government's illegitimacy grows over time, as the agenda of the government and the agenda of the common man grow further apart. this will reach a breaking point. could take years or decades, with plenty of suffering during that time. throw in nuclear weapons for fun
but until such time as iran falls yet again into revolution due to not being a democracy, iran is now a military dictatorship. not officially of course. much like north korea is officially the DEMOCRATIC people's republic of korea. yeah, north korea is a democracy (roll's eyes)
Facebookies using their real names (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A legitimate cause for war, if Iran goes too fa (Score:5, Insightful)
How is this bigot not modded troll/flamebait?
To turn a blind eye to murder due to the victims ideology, race, or religion is reprehensible.
Imagine the year is 1941:
A few attacks on individuals, especially those who hail from an enemy culture and religion , are not nearly enough to bother with invading Germany. Real Americans aren't Jews and don't care what happens to them any more than we'd care if some thoughtful soul was murdering Japs.
Does the above seem any different?
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"There is a reason there is freedom of religion in America."
That reason is to keep religionists from killing each other, not that there is anything good about religion.
Islam is demonstrably, by the societies it creates, a very toxic and savage religion. Islam may be judged by what Muslims believe, do, support, and regard as infallible word of their imaginary friend.
I'm not being "xenophobic" any more than if I deplored Communism. I specifically object to and revile Islam.
It has done nothing to advance manki
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"Why should superstition get the slightest bit of respect beyond that accorded to secular political ideology?"
I dunno, but it's worked really well in the good old US of A for the last 12 more years hasn't it?
Watch your salads (Score:4, Informative)
If you are posting things supporting the Iranian protestors, better watch what you order out - portable leafy greens might be the death of you [yahoo.com].
No reason they couldn't take the tactic abroad, and it's a lot less traceable (thus deniable) than Russian exotic uranium killings.
The govt. in Iran today... (Score:2)
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The chief difference between the Shah and the Ayatollahs is that the Ayatollahs are economic simpletons. I mean, you have one of the world's foremost oil producing countries, and its leadership is so appalling stupid and distracted by trying to assure everyone has nice happy thoughts about their underling claim that they're God's government in the country that they have literally let the economy sink into shit. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if those dickless twits that call themselves religious men
Haystack project (Score:3, Informative)
I wonder how long it can go on (Score:2)
I suspect the very moment Iran's government steps beyond some unstated boundary, the military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan will get shifted into Iran for a major and bloody regime change. When a government's #1 enemy is the people it governs, the government leaders endanger themselves.
I think the government of Iran should take a lesson from the government of the U.S. You cannot go against the will of the people. You have to manipulate the will of the people and then go with it.
Sounds familiar (Score:2, Redundant)
Gosh, the Iranian government is snooping around the internet, collating data and trying to identify potential terrorists. Now where have I heard that before? Hmmm...
Vik :v)
And this is different than the US how? (Score:2)
Through the 1992 presidential campaign, I had to sit through story after story after story about how Clinton protested the Vietnam War while he was in England. This was all 20 years after it happened, and was seen as a completely legitimate line of enquiry by the media and the establishment.
As far as government monitoring, I know people in the US with FBI files thousands of pages thick due to their involvement in peace or civil rights movements. The Patriot Act has widened the range of permissible activit
Nothing new (Score:4, Interesting)
Read about NITV:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/24/magazine/24NITV.html?pagewanted=all [nytimes.com]
One of the regulars on there was attacked in Los Angeles with a bat and lost an eye.
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"One of the regulars on there was attacked in Los Angeles with a bat and lost an eye."
This is why we should purge the US of pro-Mullocracy immigrants.
It should be made easy to administratively revoke residence and citizenship of immigrants administratively, without appeal, on national security grounds.
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What does some useless, wannabe-Israel-activist site have to do with the Iranian government cracking down on Iranians?
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OK, by citing Stormfront you just lost all factual and moral credibility.
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So basically, if we want to see where the pro-Israel lobby is astroturfing, we just have to download their "megaphone" app and wait for it to point us in the right direction. Then we can just follow them there and post actual facts. Brilliant!
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Game of what, exactly? Would *you* want your names published if someone was threatening you for standing against a corrupt government?
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I'm not blaming the people for not releasing their names. That's completely their prerogative, the same as it is mine. But for the Media and the Administration (be it the previous one, this one, or the next) to use unverifiable sources and stories as a pretext for intervention is irrepressible. And for citizens to accept these justifications and not demand evidence again and again, generation after generation is unconscionable.
yes, we understand the bush administration sucked (Score:3, Insightful)
now that you have weighed in on a dead argument that has already been resolved, when do you point some of your withering moral denunciations on the illegitimate government of iran?
or is your insightful probing mind permanently pointed only at the usa for some reason?
pffft
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when do you point some of your withering moral denunciations on the illegitimate government of iran?
or is your insightful probing mind permanently pointed only at the usa for some reason?
I'm American, not Iranian. I don't owe Iran my praise or criticism.
then you need to be intellectually honest (Score:3, Insightful)
if you say your concerns are wholly domestic, then you need to refrain your criticism of the us government to only domestic issues
if you say that is impossible, that our relationship with the outside world matters, then you also need to be intellectually honest and look at and criticize other regimes, since that certainly matters in our relationship with the wider world
but you can't have it both ways, as you are currently claiming, that somehow criticism of only the us government on matters that involve oth
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Ok, you convinced me.
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lol ?
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"How's that cyber-revolution turning out?"
It had an unfortunate encounter with the Religion of Peace.