Transportation Bill Sets Aside $45 Million For MagLev Train 402
tbischel tips us to news that the MagLev train project which would run from Las Vegas to Disneyland has received approval for $45 million in funding. The project has been in the planning stages for quite some time, and it was delayed further by a drafting error in a 2005 highway bill.
"Derided by critics as pie in the sky, the train would use magnetic levitation technology to carry passengers from Disneyland to Las Vegas in well under two hours, traveling at speeds of up to 300 mph. It would be the first MagLev system in the U.S. The money is the largest cash infusion in the project's nearly 20-year history. It will pay for environmental studies for the first leg of the project."
Trains, US? (Score:5, Funny)
Surely this must involve burning of insane amounts of petroleum somehow! Maybe the magnets are powered by petroleum?
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Funny)
He's a heretic. BURN HIM!
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Funny)
From Vegas to Mouse-land? (Score:5, Funny)
Its a ride.
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Funny)
We have trains in the United States. I know. I just priced taking the train instead of the airplane for a possible upcoming vacation. It turns out that the train is more than twice as expensive as the plane and takes two days instead of 5 hours.
The point was moot anyway as it turns out I am not in the class of people that can afford to go on vacation.
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you have the time, I would recomend the trip.
Oh.. and if you are willing to sit in a chair the whole way you can get the trip for something like $100. I am not going to recommend that, but it is possible.
Re:Trains, US? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Trains, US? (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree with you completely, but I'd argue that trains work best when they're connecting two mass transit systems together. In New York, you can hop on a subway to 34th St. Penn Station, and then jump on a train to Washington or Boston, and then take mass transit to your destination. It's a doorstep-to-doorstep solution. Disney Land to Vegas lacks that advantage. After arriving in Vegas, I'm going to need a car to get anywhere, so it starts making sense to drive, so you'll have that added flexibility and convenience of not needing to rent a car or take cabs.
The only other angle I could see is that this would effectively allow you to hit both on a single vacation. The problem is that I don't see these markets overlapping much. Disneyworld sells a wholesome, innocent world of talking mice, princesses, and teacup rides. It's pure. It's where to go when you want a world that's unadulterated, and Vegas is where you go when you want adultery. Disney Land tries to be like Eden before the fall, innocent and sinless. Vegas is the city of sin, it's more Sodom and Gomorrah. It's about gambling, gorging yourself on buffets, going to the strip clubs for your buddy's bachelor party, maybe buying a hooker. It's trying to be more family-friendly than it used to be, but still... there's no way in hell I would go to Disney Land unless I had young children. And there is no way in hell I would go to Vegas with young children.
Re:Trains, US? Idiocy? Greed? (Score:3, Insightful)
Your post is sadly accurate. This "venture" does nothing except line more pockets already stuffed with cash.
I would think a better allocation of the money and plans would be building a MagLev from certain rural and suburban communities to the not-close-enough-to-drive-to cities to bolster employment, housing and more. As a for instance, in New York, people and politicians (yes I consider them a separate group) often complain about the decline of Upstate New York. Upstate New York has numerous river towns,
Lots of trains in the USA (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, the bulk of continental freight shipped in the USA is by rail. Have a look at the rolling stock of the likes of Union Pacific, Norfolk Suffolk or CSX, and you'll see that there's been quite a bit going on.
For example, cars are just getting into gas electric hybrids, but the railroads have been running diesel electric hybrids now for decades. The locomotives are now into a new generation of hybrid technology.
The fuel efficiency of these rail lines is staggering. One or two locomotives pull trains that can be two miles long!
But you are preaching to the choir here. I love trains.
Re:Lots of trains in the USA (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric_locomotive#Diesel-electric [wikipedia.org]
Re:Lots of trains in the USA (Score:4, Informative)
There's no drive between diesel engine and wheels.
I also wouldn't consider a mechanical link between the engine and the wheels a disabling factor for calling it a 'hybrid'. That's how GM is proposing the volt be set up, actually.
What would disable it is that, unlike car hybrids, current generation diesel electrics don't have any significant levels of alternative storage - they can't store energy from stopping to get started again.
Instead, the reason they use the electronics is that it's replacing the transmission - which would actually be more costly, less efficient and break sooner than the electronic setup. Oh, they'll use the electric motors to help them stop, saving brake pads, but instead of going to a battery the energy goes to a resister net on the roof of the locomotive.
Personally, given that trains normally go for non-stop travel, I wonder if it might be better to leave the batteries in the station so the train doesn't have to haul them and electrify the rails, at least in switching yards and such, instead.
Re:Lots of trains in the USA (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive [wikipedia.org]
They use them quite a bit in Europe. Europe also has a plethora of voltages (and a choice between 0Hz, 16.7Hz and 50Hz depending on the line). There are locomotives that can tap into any combination. The general trend in the Europe is for electrification reduce the noise and raising the voltage to increase the available power.
Re:Lots of trains in the USA (Score:4, Informative)
I think GE and EMD are working on hybrid switchers, too, but along the line of the Chevy Volt: engine runs generator, which keeps battery pack charged, or can provide additional on-demand electrical boost, but running on battery is main source of power, which is opposite of current car hybrid systems, where the battery pack provides the boost.
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's amazing how much paranoia has become ingrained in certain subsections of modern western society.
You know, I too enjoyed watching X-Files in my youth
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Insightful)
In terms of the American political world, given how often what is called "paranoia" turns out to be close enough to fact twenty or thirty years later it's not really a surprise. In the 1980s global warming was considered paranoia,even though it had been theorized in 1896. [lenntech.com] Treehuggers were fringe political freaks thirty years ago, now we know that they were mostly right. Orwell's 1984 was thought a bit over the top during most of it's literary history. But thoughtcrime and doublethink are a modern reality. Predictions of government abuse of "anti-terrorism" laws were written off as treasonously unpatriotic just six years ago.
Given how much "Big Oil" countries have been investing in the US, it would be foolish to think that they didn't have considerable influence here in the US, both through lobbists and through business and real estae acquisitions. Also given is the oil import/export relationship is the prime source of income to most OPEC countries, it only makes sense that they would act to protect it. Maglev trains powered by stationary nuclear plants don't burn nearly as much imported oil as jumbo jets. Now exactly how successful they would be in their efforts to block the progression of an oil free infrastructure taking hold in the US is a potential topic for debate, but the fact that they will use what considerable influence they can to that end would seem obvious.
Re:Trains, US? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.bts.gov/publications/freight_in_america/html/table_01.html [bts.gov]
The US moves (by weight):
Truck: 60%
Train: 10%
Boat: 8%
Pipeline: 18%
Mixed-mode: 1%
Other 2%
The interesting thing is the ton-miles table where Trains are much closer to Trucks.
I used to work at a mid-sized auto parts company. We had a fleet of about 20 trucks that would move things from Minnesota to about half of the country, mostly on the east side. I always thought it was fairly in-efficient that we had trucks that would go all the way to Texas instead of driving it into Minneapolis (55 miles), then shipping it via train to Dallas where a local truck would take it to a warehouse for store distribution.
Critics (Score:4, Insightful)
Where critics = oil companies and automobile manufacturers
Re:Critics (Score:5, Insightful)
What about building the first Maglev between Washington and New York? What about San Francisco and Los Angeles? What about making it actually useful?
Re: "making it actually useful" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: "making it actually useful" (Score:5, Funny)
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It's like the Cold War. We spent many billions of dollars on unusable weapons systems,to keep the bucks flowing between wars, now, when we've managed to get someone to actually attack us, we get to borro
Re: "making it actually useful" (Score:5, Insightful)
The MARC trains (Balt -DC)are quite crowded (Score:3, Informative)
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Really, the service between New York and D.C. is amongst Amtrack's most important routes. The only thing that service between two tourist traps would accomplish is public interest, and as a first generation demonstrator.
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Such a rail between LV and LA would be useful. This is a popular commute, both for recreation and business.
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A good line would be Chicago-NY or Chi-LA. Being in the middle of the country has the advantage of a hub. Viable for tourism in summer, and supported by business commuters all year round.
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Re:Critics (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Critics (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, hopefully they'll get this thing off the ground and generate some me-too reactions from some of the other busy routes around the country. Boston-to-New York comes to mind, and Chicago-to-anywhere (St. Louis, Detroit, Des Moines).
Eventually there should be a national high speed rail alternative to air travel, and we will see less airport congestion and, perhaps, a more humble attitude on the part of the airlines when they have some real competition for a change.
But "should" does not translate into "will", unfortunately. The money and the political initiative just aren't there at this time.
Re:Critics (Score:5, Informative)
Cheers,
Greg
Infrastructure problems in the East prohibit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Infrastructure problems in the East prohibit (Score:5, Informative)
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Yes and no. Yes, there are no more at-grade crossings except maybe near Boston and I think those have been eliminated. But there were some at-grade crossings that I have personal experience with. In Delaware crossing Red Mill Road and Harmony Road until the late 70s. The amount of signaling at those crossings was insane too since those trains went through there around 100+ MPH.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6qwspf [tinyurl.com] Link to google map of one of the former crossings, since replaced with overpass a few hundre
Re:Infrastructure problems in the East prohibit (Score:5, Interesting)
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I doubt that's a good idea, it's unlikely that you'd manage to convince people to put up with that AND the near requirement for passengers to wear diapers or something similar.
If a trip takes more than a few hours and there are many passengers on the train the probability of someone needing to go to the loo is going to be very high.
"Tall" trains can already go 250-300kph. How much faster will such midget trains be after sacrificing the
Re:Infrastructure problems in the East prohibit (Score:5, Insightful)
It would be great, though, if they improved the tracks to get the full speed out of the train.
Re:Critics (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Critics (Score:5, Insightful)
Where critics = oil companies and automobile manufacturers
Did you read the article? Lets recap this:
There is no train on the route Amtrak's Desert Wind between Los Angeles and Las Vegas was canceled in 1997 because of low ridership.
Now what makes anyone think after the hoopla is over the drivers will take a maglev train?
$140 a barrel? $200 a barrel? $300 barrel?
Me, I drive because I like to drive. While today's $140 barrel hurts the budget, I will still drive. Not because I don't live any where near the train, I could take a bus or plane. But because at $100 it is still cheaper than golf for hours entertained. People like driving.
Derided by me too (Score:5, Insightful)
That's just 3mph slower than the fastest ever Maglev Monorail.. but it runs on standard gauge rail track that can be time-shared with commuter trains and railfreight traffic.. Heavy Rail in the USA is something that had its time then went away, but don't be surprised if it makes a return again.
300mph trains between city-centre stations can compete with 600mph aeroplanes flying from heavily-secured out-of-town airports.
they better check out North Haverbrook first... (Score:5, Funny)
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marge_vs._the_Monorail [wikipedia.org]
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Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, apart from the fact a dam is actually useful, and a train between two holiday resorts during a time when people have no money to spend on holidays is all kinds of pointless.
Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Not at all, if it proves the technology. Ensures people are happy to use it - and paves the may for a cheap, fast, and effective mass transit to try and tempt people away from cars.
I bet the big automotive/oil firms are watching this like a hawk.
After all, who wants to drive between the cities when you can do it in a fraction of the time, cost, and in air conditioned comfort whilst reading papers, sipping tea, and chomping biscuits.
Many times in the UK I have wished we could reverse Beechings Axe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_Axe [wikipedia.org]
Even more with the massive fuel price increase we have had here in the UK. The long term solution is to change demographics (get people living closer to work) and to ensure a cheap and viable mass transit alternative.
Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Insightful)
At the moment, it's still to expensive, and all countries/continents where passenger trains are common have extensive networks of traditional tracks
The technology is nice, proven but at the moment there's not really a business case to be made for longer stretches of MagLev tracks.
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If the environmental study is going to cost 45 million, the construction costs are going to be multiple billions. Don't think it will ever make enough money to be profitable. Obviously a pork barrel project!
Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why Maglev? and why Vegas to Anaheim? (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as mag-lev - why? Building a proven TGV type of track, would allow other trains to use it as well, also aiding in cost-benefit. Plan on multiple side junctions to allow the TGV type train to pass the slower trains, thus permitting dual use for freight, etc. I can't imagine the mag-lev train to be that much more efficient, since fuel cost , at those speeds, is all about fighting wind resistance, and not rolling resistance.
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Why are companies investing in optical and quantum computing when current semico
Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Insightful)
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http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article4075781.ece [timesonline.co.uk]
Britain is to be left out of Europe's high-speed rail revolution because the Government has decided that 200mph trains are bad for the environment.
Despite repeated promises to consider the benefits of a dedicated new line capable of carrying passengers from London to Scotland in less than three hours, ministers are thinking again.
In a letter obtained by The Times, Tom Harris, the Rail Minister, said: "The argument that high-speed rail travel is a 'green option' does not necessarily stand up to close inspection. Increasing the maximum speed of a train from 200kph [125mph - the current maximum speed of domestic trains] to 350kph leads to a 90 per cent increase in energy consumption."
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Tom Harris, the Rail Minister, said: "The argument that high-speed rail travel is a 'green option' does not necessarily stand up to close inspection. Increasing the maximum speed of a train from 200kph [125mph - the current maximum speed of domestic trains] to 350kph leads to a 90 per cent increase in energy consumption."
So instead everyone who can flies, which is so much better for the environment.
And this man's the Rail Minister? Sweet Jesus.
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Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Informative)
I read Trains magazine religiously each month. This month there was an article about a train (Amtrak) that Missouri pays for to run between St. Louis and Kansas City (IIRC). Ridership on the train was very good, but unfortunately the track it uses has a lot of freight trains as well, so the Amtrak trains are frequently late, and ridership is declining. Missouri did a study and found that it'd cost $45 million to improve the line, and they allocated $10 million to double track a few sections.
Meanwhile, as the article points out, if Missouri instead decided to build a 6-lane highway, the federal gov't would kick in 80% of the funding.
Sanity. It just won't happen.
Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, Chicago could become a MAJOR hub for maglev trains, with these lines going from Chicago in a spoke-like fashion:
1) To Milwaukee, WI-Madison, WI-Eau Claire, WI-Minneapolis/Saint Paul, MN
2) To Rockford, IL-Davenport, IA-Des Moines, IA-Council Bluffs, IA-Omaha, NE
3) To Champaign, IL-Saint Louis, MO-Columbia, MO-Kansas City, MO-Wichita, KS
4) To Indianapolis, IN-Cincinnati, OH-Louisville, KY
5) To South Bend, IN-Toledo, OH-Cleveland, OH-Erie, PA-Buffalo, NY
6) To Grand Rapids, MI-Lansing, MI-Detroit, MI
Given that maglev trains aren't limited by the width constraints of standard gauge rail, you can create trains that could seat 500 passengers per train or more travelling every 18 to 20 minutes on the same route. You would actually encourage people to not fly or drive between these two cities due to the very fast transit times.
Re:Huge construction project.. recession.. (Score:5, Insightful)
And if appropriately managed, likely would cost less than the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. And employed Americans doing it. Better yet, something to show for the trillions.
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The Wonders Of Engineering (Score:5, Funny)
Bizarre (Score:5, Informative)
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If this becomes active, there will be three ways to travel this route for most people, auto, plane, or maglev. People are going to make the decision based on different priorities, but if this is faster than the two alternatives (taking into account waiting to board both the maglev and plane, and convenience to the station/airport), and is cheaper than the alternatives, and has an environmental positive on top of that, it cou
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In London passenger trains are typically 12 cars for congested lines, and that seems to be the practical limit in terms of length - on stations where entry to the platforms are from one end, people only both
Well, what state is Pelosi from? (Score:2)
C'mon, all that changed in 2006 is that the side in power butters their bread on the bottom instead of the top
Sometimes when I think of Democrats and Republicans all I can see is that horrible Star Trek episode Let that be your last battlefield... meaning who can tell the difference?
Maybe they should talk to the germans first (Score:5, Interesting)
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Things change. The Transrapid project in Germany might simply have been too early; it was scrapped because it had already cost so much that it was not politically viable to continue with it.
Now, take a close look at the current trends in the price of oil, and scan the news stories about airline share prices plummeting. Is air travel really going to stay so competitive in th
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Previous train route cancelled due to low useage (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Previous train route cancelled due to low useag (Score:4, Insightful)
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I think they'd be better off doing LA to San Jose AMtrack station where riders would have the option of getting on another train for SF.
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If there's one thing worth learning from trains in Europe it's that high speed train routes are mainly competitive if they're short enough that their lower speed (compared to planes) doesn't cancel out the advantage of shorter travel to/from the city centres and reduced security/checkin times.
London to Paris for example is very competitive in time:
The stations on either end are in the city c
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Los Angeles and Las Vegas are pretty-damn-big cities. What's more, the traffic traveling between the two on a regular basis is enormous, and the length of the route in addition to the congestion means getting people out of their cars could be a HUGE win.
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The problem is that you have to buy a ticket for you car that's already more expensive than food, fuel, and lodging for the trip. Then you have to also buy a ticket for yourself, which is half again as expensive as the last ticket. Then you still have to take care of your meals.
And it gets much, much worse if you are a group of people.
A family of four would pay almost an order
Re:DC-to-Orlando Auto Train (Score:3, Informative)
We got a 2-bunk cabin, which is much nicer than trying to sleep in the standard coach seats. Overall costs were about $1600 (in 2003,) not including the additional drive from Sanford FL to Sarasota FL. The main be
Re:Previous train route cancelled due to low useag (Score:5, Informative)
The French LGV Est [wikipedia.org] is 300 km and cost 4 billion euros - $6 billion. $21 million a mile.
Or if you look at the British London-to-channel-tunnel rail link, it cost £5.2 billion ($10 billion) for 108 km [wikipedia.org] - $100 million a mile.
Even if economies of scale get the price down to $10 million per km the cost will be $4 billion.
Re:Previous train route cancelled due to low useag (Score:4, Insightful)
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In discussions about US government programs I often hear Iraq war comparisons. It's understandable - there are a lot of exciting things we could have done with the $500 billion we've spent in Iraq.
However, we've spent that money; we can't un-spend it. So we don't have $500 billion sitting around waiting for an application. What we have is a toilet that's had $500 billion flushed down it, a budget deficit and $9,410 [brillig.com]
Re:Previous train route cancelled due to low useag (Score:2)
Great! (Score:2)
The longest journey starts with a single step... (Score:2)
My second thought was "where will they get that much copper?"
Powering 500 miles of track will need an awful lot of wire.
Re:The longest journey starts with a single step.. (Score:2)
Might work, outlandish enough! (Score:2)
On a side note, the MagLev in Shanghai was good fun
drop in the bucket (Score:3, Informative)
Interesting Route (Score:5, Funny)
How about this instead? (Score:2, Interesting)
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/
About time the United States became like the other industrialized countries, don't you think?
Insanely expensive project... (Score:2)
Costs of scheme (Score:2)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_levitation_train [wikipedia.org]:
The Shanghai maglev cost 9.93 billion yuan (US$1.2 billion) to build.... China aims to limit the cost of future construction extending the maglev line to approximately 200 million yuan (US$24.6 million) per kilometer.
Stop wasting our money. (Score:2)
Bread and Circuses (Score:5, Funny)
What a world we might make then.
Have You Ever Made That Drive? (Score:3, Funny)
MagLev is pointless (Score:4, Insightful)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6521295.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Why pay so much for a technology giving you so little? MagLev isn't cheap. You could just copy the French...........ah what am I saying...
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$45 million is a penny in the bucket compared to what it would cost to build it.
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