Germany Seeks Expansion of Computer Spying 177
gooman writes "The LA Times reports on a proposal to secretly scan suspects' hard drives which is causing unease in a nation with a history of official surveillance. Along with several other European countries, Germany is seeking authority to plant secret Trojan viruses into the computers of suspects that could scan files, photos, diagrams and voice recordings, record every keystroke typed and possibly even turn on webcams and microphones in an attempt to gain knowledge of attacks before they happen."
Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race (Score:5, Insightful)
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The UK government is probably already doing this, who needs democratic authority in a country where citizens have no right to free speech. And most are too drunk or hungover to think clearly enough to exercise that right on any given day. Seriously, if you know what's good for you, stay away from Britain. V for Vendetta may yet turn out to be a documentary.
Incidentally, I'd be interested in
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Anyone that the government doesn't like for some reason or no reason. Since all Governments are run by people, it would some person in that Government who is ambitious or was paid off by someone rich/powerful/ambitius. May the 'suspect' is innocent, maybe not, but that can be irrelevant.
Whoever gets there first loses (Score:4, Insightful)
You might be over-reacting (Score:2)
With a warrant, I bet cops can legally do that in USA too. Probably just about any country.
If there's due process, it isn't unusual
Ummm....the FBI have been doing this since 1999 (Score:3, Informative)
See: http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2002/01/49455 [wired.com]
(Or google for something like "scarfo keylogger")
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As for the Internet, the cozy relationship between VeriSign and the NSA anf FBI through the eavesdropping ("legal intercept") services it offers. That means much of your https traffic can be decrypted with nary a complai
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Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't know who "we" is for you, but here in the UK, it's official in name only: most of the laws being passed today that affect me are either coming from Europe (where the Commission I don't get a say in electing trump the Parliament I do), Gordon Brown and his administration (who were never elected and have no legitimate mandate whatsoever), or my local County Council (who are imposing very unpopular measures on my city — which gets represented by only a few seats on the County Council — in direct conflict with the City Council).
In other words, I haven't even had a chance to vote either for or against any of the three major levels of government that can make "official" rules that affect me today. They may be official on pretty headed paper, but they've no more ethical basis than a third world dictator.
However, for the first time today, senior figures in a credible opposition party started talking openly about mass civil disobedience in protest against one of these heavy-handed laws imposed by a government with little popular support. There is yet hope...
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In other words, I haven't even had a chance to vote either for or against any of the three major levels of government that can make "official" rules that affect me today. They may be official on pretty headed paper, but they've no more ethical basis than a third world dictator.
What I think is the scariest thing is the thought that statements like yours might one day attract the eye of the spying government and get people into trouble.
I remember during a visit to the former USSR, talking to a woman who spent 10 years in a Soviet labour camp. She was 16, working in a bakery that had sold out of bread. Another woman demanded a loaf of bread and she said "Go ask Stalin for your bread, 'cause he didn't send us any flour." That statement alone resulted in her imprisonment, torture a
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I remember during a visit to the former USSR, talking to a woman who spent 10 years in a Soviet labour camp. She was 16, working in a bakery that had sold out of bread. Another woman demanded a loaf of bread and she said "Go ask Stalin for your bread, 'cause he didn't send us any flour." That statement alone resulted in her imprisonment, torture and almost her death.
Now if she could have said that and remained anonymous, then she would have been ok.
In Stalinist Russia, the whole bakery would have been deported then.
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I'm not going to argue that the EU comission is the pinncale of democratic legitimacy, but the EU comission gets appointed by the 27 (democratically) elected governments (one of which you had the chance to vote for)
Except that I didn't, as noted later in my post.
In any case, the European Commission is just a dumping ground for political friends who have no credibility left at home, precisely because the Powers That Be can appoint people there with impunity. They then use the rules created by those eurocrats as an excuse to impose legislation back home that would never fly with the electorate if proposed directly. It's a sweet deal... if your interests involve pushing through legislation against the will of the ele
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Quoth the AC:
You elected the party, Brown leads it now. Deal with it.
Why should I? Here's some electoral facts for you, from the 2005 general election:
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If Bush quit office today, Cheney would take over as president, with out any further voting, for the remainder of the presidential term. So how is this different from Blair's deputy, Brown, taking over when public pressure forces Blair to resign?
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So how is this different from Blair's deputy, Brown, taking over when public pressure forces Blair to resign?
In two rather fundamental ways, actually:
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You didn't fix anything at all. What you wrote simply isn't true — not least because only one of the European bodies you mentioned is elected at all. The others are appointed, by people whom I as a citizen am not guaranteed a say in choosing, using procedures over which I as a citizen have no control.
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I'm sorry, you must have been on another planet. The entire British media was full of stories about the controversy of Gordon Brown taking over as Prime Minister based only on the votes of Labour Party members and their political allies. Then it was full of stories about how undemocratic it was to have what they termed a "coronation", where Brown didn't even have to face any other candidates from within his own party.
And remember, the Labour MPs who currently hold an absolute majority in Parliament
Re:Europe beating USA in the big brother arms race (Score:4, Informative)
That's why the campaign against this trojan and the telecommunications data retention law is called Stasi 2.0 [wikipedia.org]
(The man on the logo is the Minister of the Interior Schäuble [wikipedia.org].)
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<tinfoil>Or the US Department of Homeland Security in modern times.</tinfoil>
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For those not familiar with the terms of the former German Democratic Republic, the "Stasi" was the "Ministerium für Staatssicherheit" (department for interior security). Comparable with the Gestapo of earlier German times.
Dude, the GDR Stasi was certainly not a bunch of nice, likeable dudettes and dudes and there's no doubt that they committed their share of crimes.
Comparing them to the gestapo, however, who is directly responsible for the murder of 100000s - if not millions of people is more then a bit rich.
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The Gestapo was certainly even less choosy in its means than the Stasi was when they tried to get information, but essentially they had the same job: Finding dissenters and stowing them somewhere where they can do no harm to the country, find people willing to cooperate as informants for "benefits" and infiltrating the own popula
nothing new... (Score:5, Funny)
We already have something like that in America. It's called Geek Squad.
Mandated use of Windows? (Score:5, Interesting)
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No, not 'dear suspect' (Score:2)
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just have people sign a release (Score:5, Funny)
what do the papers say?
they say that we have treated you well.
i cannot sign the papers
why not?
you have broken all my fingers
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bambu [wikipedia.org]
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Talk about spyware! (Score:3, Insightful)
It'll be interesting to see if some future mandatory German tax software might have a list of 'incompatible software' that it will kindly uninstall for you in future tax seasons.
Ryan Fenton
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The Constitution (Score:4, Funny)
Hackers of the World unite! (Score:2, Interesting)
I hope hacker organizations around the World all do the same, and if possible, do it for folks who live in countries where such activity will get them killed. *ahem*Chine*ahem*
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2. It will not be a Trojan. It is a feature.
3. Hello Windows SP3 and Vista SP1. And you all wondered what was taking them so long.
This is one of those "feel" good ideas that will only work for the dumbest of criminals. Might catch some kiddie porn collectors but I doubt that it will catch many serious terrorists. But then maybe they are all using Windows.
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BUT is just can't see this being a good idea. Too easy to avoid and too easy to abuse.
Strictly for idiots (Score:2)
This kind of thing just isn't that hard to avoid. Trojans do work, but generally only against people who are sloppy, or do not have the skills or interest to correctly handle their computer. I have wiped viruses repeatedly off my 70 year old step mother's computer for instance. She repetitively
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I would even think they might let a couple people die before busting them in order to save more people if possible. I know I would, kind of like shooting a hijacked airliner down over a fie
When will Europe learn? (Score:4, Insightful)
In America, the government just does things like this, hoping it stays a secret. If it is found out, you smear anyone who is upset as anti-American. If there are hearings on it, you get amnesia and claim executive priveledge. Eventaully, a congressman will have sex with something, or somewhere, he isn't supposed to, and everyone forgets.
Really, it's a wonderful system we have here.
Re:When will Europe learn? (Score:5, Insightful)
My point is, concealing the facts generally implies that there is some fear of the popular reaction. A country in which the government /doesn't/ fear the backlash from such invasive techniques is a far scarier place to live, IMO.
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Re:When will Europe learn? (Score:5, Informative)
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Remember the reaction on warrantless wiretapping in the USA? Well, me neither, as there was no noteworthy public reaction.
Noteworthy is the key word. Who notes it? The mainstream media oligarchy writes the story and determines what counts as history. The vast majority of the public is probably unaware of much of what has been happening, or is too busy to do anything. The fat controllers almost have it in the bag; lawmakers, media, law enforcement. But, in the end, would the military turn against its own people?
There is a groundswell of discontent rising and it will inevitably reach a breaking point. I suspect though that go
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Were I a German citizen, my concern would be whether or not the laws are passed in the face of the protests. As it is, I suspect that we're all in for troubling times ahead where many of our most basic principles are tes
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Not sure its a great idea for the 15,000 of you to all stand out in public so they can catalog you all and put you at the top of the list to get the next round of Trojans. You are kind of saying here we are, we are all the troublemakers...we need to be watched.
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Please (Score:1)
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And, once you've answered that, Are you sure?
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Re:Please (Score:4, Insightful)
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It will cause who they are looking for to double check things. Possibly not trust computers. Possible not trust Internet communications. You know, I know I am clean, but what about the site I just posted on? What about "Ohkmed the octopus" who I just IM-ed. How can you be sure they are clean and the government isn't watching my communications through them.
So besides raising the inteligence bar necessary for people willing to kill themselves for some promise of 72 virgins (that will always remain
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They will come through you house door, not your firewall and install it manually. (At least that's what the police says, the politicians maunder about attachments and the like.) But, whether it will be platform independent and thus run on your FreeBSD Desktop is an unanswered question.
When you strip off all that crackhead talk of the politicians, the police wants a mean to bug your computer just like your phone. It is technically feasible and not crazy. But as far as I am concerned it's politically wrong
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They might just install a rootkit like software on your PC when you are away. Like they would do with your phone since forty years. They are not very transparent about the technical side and the idiotic bosh of tech-illiterate politicians blurs the whole thing even more.
What is known is this:
-They want to install some kind of software on your computer.
-This can be done remotely or manually. (And there are statements that they want to install it manually.)
-They then want to retrieve information from you
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They broke into your house and installed it while you were out shopping? And if for whatever reason the relevant investigative organ is unable to compile a trojan for your specific OS, they'll just install a hardware keylogger or just make an image of your hard disk.
Achtung! (Score:1)
Mmmhm (Score:4, Interesting)
Given governments' competence in such matters that's just a matter of time.
Schizophrenic Germany (Score:2)
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Linux? Never heard of it.
Don't expect that those proposals even remotely make sense. If somebody where to tell them it won't work, they would answer "then make it work".
Besides, that guy is really paranoid, perhaps because he was shot years ago. He's definitely on the "or the terrorists win" train.
Windows only? (Score:2)
Better hide those Ataris and Amigas !
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My WRT-54GL [wikipedia.org] runs a variant of Linux (Tomato Firmware [polarcloud.com], to be exact), and definitely couldn't run Windows. Or are they going to provide hacked versions of all of the ROMs for routers and other small computers?
Some Routers can use external hard drives, so they could hold potential "terrorist" stuff.
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Before I bend to the will of a clinically paranoid nutcase like Schäuble, I'd rather go to jail. I'd rather break the laws of a country than those of my conscience.
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That said, I agree, following ones conscience is important, but so is picking the right battles.
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I do not have anything to hide, but the article got me wondering about my home computer setup. Only one of my computers is connected to the Internet. I have three computers all going through a KVM switch connected to just one keyboard, monitor and mouse. One of the computers uses Linux and is the only one that is used for email and browsing the Internet. They could try to install a keystroke logger and spyware on that computer, if they have a Linux version of their trojan. Perhaps they have some kind of
Legal to Protect Against (Score:4, Interesting)
As for the reliability of the information gathered: Is information gathered in this way admissible? It would seem that there are to many potential snags with this that it would never be able to be relied upon by itself.
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I for one am working in AV, and should something like that end up on my desk (as a "do not include" file), a remover will be available no later than the next day.
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The government MAKES the law. You have to obey. Governments are allowed to do lots of things the people are forbidden to do. Printing money and making of atomic bombs are only two such things.
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By the way, you have the right to print money here. It just must not be in the likeness of the governments money, but nobody keeps you from printing bills and telling people you accept them as legal tender.
In the USA a judge ruled it admissible in 2001 (Score:2)
In the USA it is: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2001/12/27/fbi-snooping.htm [usatoday.com]
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Does it need to be? I know nothing of German law, but in many western countries this would be the first step of intelligence gathering prior to mounting a raid, not the be all and end all.
Sounds familiar... (Score:1, Insightful)
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I'd rather get attacked.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I hear facism worked for them before (Score:1, Troll)
Since you weren't there, I'll fill you in: (Score:3, Insightful)
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Mission Creep is the Worry (Score:5, Insightful)
An example of this is the criminal genetic database in the UK. Initially it was only for convicted criminals, but there has been mission creep for years and they now keep huge amounts of genetic data, even from people who are completely innocent.
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Germany also wants to implement the EU mandantory logging of IP connection data. To fight terrorists, of course. Now we learn that the music industry will most likely get access to the data for the terrorist crime of copyright violations aka file sharing.
Fearmongering, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
A terrorist attack with nuclear weapons is certain. The question is no longer whether such an attack could be carried out by terrorists, but when," Schaeuble told the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper in September.[emphasis added]
If the attack is so certain, why haven't we arrested the terrorist(s)? Which is more likely:
Fearmongering for personal political gain only detracts from the real issues surrounding terrorism. You know, things like:
Instead of responding to goons like this, we should instead focus on the fact that other law enforcement officials have been able to conduct successful terrorism investigations without resorting to devices such as these.
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I am American and am currently working in Germany, so my understanding of their politics isn't that great. But with that said, pretty much everyone here thinks that Schäuble is an absolute idiot. I have not met a single person who supports his policies. He is made fun of in numerous websites, on tv, and by most of the people here. The outcry against his fearmongering tactics has been sizeable and a number of politicians are opposing him.
Now, contrast this with America where Bush and the Republicans u
government rights versus freedom (Score:2)
For the most part we citizens are aware of the rules that we live under. This is no different in Iran than it is in the
Governments have no "rights" (Score:2)
Any government which claims to have "rights" is a dictatorship.
FUD article (Score:2)
Don't they already have this authority? Is there anyone in the world who doesn't have this "authority"?
Wh
An all together different Schindler's list :) (Score:2)
simple solution (Score:2)
Linux (oblig) (Score:2)
German gov doesnt have a clue (Score:2)
Perhaps all governmental roles - not just presidents - should have a limited term. That way, people in the government would be forced to think about the l
Austria (Score:2, Informative)
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/30/hungarian_vxer_escapes_jail/ [theregister.co.uk]
http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/archive-062004.html [f-secure.com]
Etc. And more from the early 90es and 80es. And as far as i remember, some of the early Polymorphic virus engines etc.
I think every country with teenagers+computers got some of these kids who dream in assembly code. And some of them might be eager to earn some easy money.