States Seek More Oversight of Microsoft 155
taoman1 writes "A group of states led by California said in a court filing Thursday that ending oversight of Microsoft's business practices in November would not allow enough time to consider the antitrust implications of Windows Vista. The states want oversight extended at least through early next year. 'The justice department said in its report that while Microsoft's operating system market share hasn't dropped because of the consent decree, "it would misapprehend the purpose of the Final Judgments to rely on these facts to argue that the Final Judgments have been ineffective. Microsoft was never found to have acquired or increased its monopoly market share unlawfully." In its report, Microsoft directly countered California's claims and said, the "Final Judgments were never designed to reduce Microsoft's share in any putative market."'"
Oops (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems they *did* do a thorough job on the DOJ and congress, though.
Re: (Score:2)
To the point that prosecutors were instructed to drop the case.
Re: (Score:2)
Not the DOJ so much as the President -- recall that the MS antitrust case pretty much went away after Bush was elected.
To the point that prosecutors were instructed to drop the case.
Which was especially sickening as they had Microsoft on the ropes at that point. With all the missteps that MS's lawyers and witnesses had made, they were in trouble. Of course the remedies that were seemingly being considered at the time probably wouldn't have fixed most of the real problems, so we might still not be much better off. It was all about the API's (both documented and undocumented) and who got how much access and when that was the real issue that needed to be solved. Limiting their abilit
Re: (Score:2)
To the point that prosecutors were instructed to drop the case.
Quite true, but there's more than enough culpability to go around in both sides of the Senate and House also. If anyone had raised a big enough stink about it on either side of the House or Senate, things might have gone differently. Maybe not as differently as we'd all like to see, I'm sure, but still more than what was allowed
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Oops (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe Microsoft's problem is that, like you, they have no idea how their own government works, to the point of bribing the wrong people?
Really, people, you can't change your government for the better if you don't know how things work as they are.
Re: (Score:2)
Not a good thing (Score:3, Insightful)
Just seems like a big Pandora's box of things would be opened up.
Re:Not a good thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, Windows still has the major share, but I don't think anything the government's done has been what has decreased the overall share. Actually, quite the contrary... while on one side they had all this oversight, on the other the U.S. government has been one of the biggest buyers.
People are getting sick of MS all on their own. As long as we keep harping about it to our friends and families and keep introducing them to alternatives, and getting our schools and churches and places of business to try alternatives, we're fine.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
So? Has anything changed? Linux has been going to take the desktop next year for how many years? So people don't like Vista, well they didn't like XP or win98 or... but they still bought it because all the paths lead to MS products. In high tech once your est
Re:Not a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
So sorry your favorite OS has not taken over the world, but you don't get to use the government to do it. Now look at this topic - they want oversight of Vista, the OS, this doesn't concern anything else MS may be up to, just what it's doing with it's OS.
And MS HAS lost market share to MacOS (and perhaps fractionally Linux), and it did so because of the free market, not anything the government has done.
Don't confuse this issue with MS's other business practices unrelated to the OS itself.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Same here.
But this has never been a case of oversight. It's a case of misdirection, the magicians trick of getting you to pay attention to his left hand, while he does something sneaky with his right hand.
I can't say with certainty that Microsoft's biggest customer is the federal government, but it has to be way up there. Add to that the fact that many many private businesses exist onl
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I am a libertarian, in fact
At first, I read that as "I am a librarian..." I was wondering why that had anything to do with the discussion. ;-)
And MS HAS lost market share to MacOS (and perhaps fractionally Linux), and it did so because of the free market, not anything the government has done.
All politics aside, this is clearly false (though that should say "the governments," plural.
Microsoft has had to tone down their anti-competitive practices substantially over the course of the last 10 years. They have been fighting a long and painful battle in the EU over their practices there, and they have had to relinquish tremendous control over the deployment of their operating system i
Re: (Score:2)
NO.
Do you know of any that started using it because they got sick of MS and said, you know, OSX looks like a good alternative?
YES.
I'm not arguing MS used illegal anti-competitive practices to get to the top, but government intervention is not what is driving people to alternatives.
Re: (Score:2)
I disagree, though. MS is still "the" name in operating systems for nearly everybody... do you know ANY entity (person or business) that decided to stop using Windows because of government action?
NO.
Well, not to ruin your nice rhetorical setup there, but yes. Dozens.
Any large organization that runs Linux server-side today does so because the OEM-side pressure that Microsoft was able to exert dried up as a result of the anti-trust case in the U.S. This reduced Microsofts ability to restrict the playing field, and a number of very large organizations sprung up which could deliver Windows, but could just as easily deliver other OSes like Linux. On the other hand, you had IBM. They were exiting the Intel
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux has been going to take the desktop next year for how many years? So people don't like Vista, well they didn't like XP or win98 or... but they still bought it because all the paths lead to MS products.
No operating system takes over market share in a day (or even usually in a year). It's a gradual change and what we're seeing now is the beginning of a gradual change away from Microsoft as the only OS. Mac OS X has started to gain momentum but for the past 5 years or so they've been adding a few hundred (probably) new users a year who switched from Windows. Likewise desktop Linux has been gaining perhaps several dozen new desktop users from the Windows market share each year. At times there are burst
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
And frankly, that's fine. The market is deciding on that one, and they're gradually deciding to stick wit
Re: (Score:2)
Linux is still a hacker OS - it's missing little bits of polish and shine, but slowly improving. And frankly, that's fine. The market is deciding on that one, and they're gradually deciding to stick with an older version of Windows.
No. That's really not the problem. There are Linux distros now that are really every bit as friendly as XP, but people don't switch to them because they can't run all their favorite Windows or Windows/Mac only applications and games. Linux has a chicken-and-egg problem. It isn't getting a large enough user-base because it doesn't have all the big-name software, and the big-name software isn't coming because it doesn't have a large enough user-base.
The Microsoft monopoly problem has always been one of n
Re:Not a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Breaking into the desktop market is very hard indeed, and the barriers are ridiculously steep. We're just very lucky that a couple of special cases happened to squeak through -- and note that even having gotten past the barrier to entry and getting onto the field, application base remains an exceptionally powerful obstruction to actually managing to compete. Linux and MacOS may be on the field, but it is still far from level.
Re:Not a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Liberty and Freedom are not equivalent to anarchy, and you do a disservice to everyone by perpetuating that falsehood.
Re: (Score:1, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm [usdoj.gov]
Re:Not a good thing (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft has pushed the states very, very hard to prevent them from moving to other platforms. If they continue to do so, the states are left only with the need to seek oversight on what is effectively a monopoly over critical government resources.
Competition, in this case, is in Microsoft's best interests.
Re:Not a good thing (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And then you have 3 separate monopolies in each of desktop, internet, and office applications, since none of them would change their business practices as a result. Great idea.
No, the correct approach would have been to require Microsoft to disclose its secret file formats, network protocols, and APIs. The free market would do the rest of the work in cutting Microsoft down to size.
The message would be clear: You can be a mo
Re: (Score:2)
And then you have 3 separate monopolies in each of desktop, internet, and office applications, since none of them would change their business practices as a result. Great idea.
You're assuming the company would be split along the product lines. A more reasonable solution is to split the company into competitors, giving several companies the rights to produce Windows using all the code and intellectual property to date.
No, the correct approach would have been to require Microsoft to disclose its secret file formats, network protocols, and APIs. The free market would do the rest of the work in cutting Microsoft down to size.
I disagree. Even if you managed to stop them from leveraging ties based upon formats and APIs, they could still leverage bundling (which they already do) and that would still undermine the other markets. Eventually I think any micromanagement of MS will fail. Th
Re: (Score:2)
Linux distributions are far more guilty of bundling than Microsoft has ever been.
Now if you want to talk product tying, you'd have to show me a component of Windows that can stand alone as a separate product, yet cannot be removed from Windows and replaced with a competitor's offering.
Re: (Score:2)
Linux distributions are far more guilty of bundling than Microsoft has ever been. Now if you want to talk product tying, you'd have to show me a component of Windows that can stand alone as a separate product, yet cannot be removed from Windows and replaced with a competitor's offering.
You're misusing your terms. Bundling is one form of tying, the first specifically exemplified in antitrust law. Tying products is not illegal. Tying markets is illegal if one of those markets is one you have monopoly influence in. Makers of Linux distributions can tie and bundle anything they want right up until they have a monopoly on one of those things.
Your argument is like saying, "The NRA member down the street is much more guilty of firing guns than the Virginia Tech murderer." What you're misunde
Re: (Score:2)
The argument was that splitting up Microsoft is necessary because otherwise they will tie their product lines and somehow squeeze out competitors that way.
My challenge to you is to demonstrate how they would accomplish that, when under my proposal their file formats, network protocols, and secret APIs would be out in the open.
How do you propagate a monopoly through product tying, when your competitors have everything they need to engineer a drop-in replacement?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
We split up Standard Oil. How many oil companies do we have now, and how much do they cooperate rather than compete with each other?
We split up AT&T. How many telephone companies do we have now, and how much do they cooperate rather than compete with each other?
Re: (Score:2)
Well...Microsoft has kind of prepared itself for that has internally split itself up into three major groups, kind of along the lines of what the DoJ was o
How did it not work? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's not the OS, it's the business practice... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's when Microsoft calls up hardware vendors such as Dell and tells them that they will have their Windows license revoked if they sell another OS, that's where you need the Feds to step in. At that point, Microsoft is not investing to add features, but is really working to the detrminent of consumers.
That Micr
Re: (Score:2)
We all want... (Score:2)
market share drop (Score:4, Insightful)
No, but it might drop because Vista has been the best advertizing that OS X and Linux could ask for.
Re: (Score:1, Interesting)
OS X = Linux done right.
Re: (Score:2)
OS X = Linux done right.
Re: (Score:2)
- It is not free software.
- It is DRM loaded.
- It is limited to a very narrow set of hardware.
- It is controlled by a single organization.
These are all things that I find unacceptable in an OS.I object! (Score:2)
What? (Score:5, Interesting)
The Justice Department has clearly been replaced by members of the mafia.
Re: (Score:2)
The fact is that the DoJ is a goddamn mess right now. I don't think they're occupied by pro-MS types, but rather preoccupied with internal troubles.
Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)
RICO violations? Do you have links to prove that Microsoft violated RICO laws? Here's a link about RICO. [wikipedia.org]
I'm repopulating an old case with new hardware. I intend to run Linux and Windows. No one is forcing me to by Windows for the new hardware. No one ever has forced me to buy Windows when I didn't want it. No one hindered my purchase of an iMac. Microsoft is not, and never was an effective monopoly in my experience. "Oh but
Re:What? (Score:4, Informative)
Under current law, you can have a monopoly so long as you don't use that monopoly to gain a monopoly to another market. Microsoft used their desktop OS monopoly to get a browser monopoly and then a media player monopoly.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Intel would make chips but don't release any of the specs to those chips so they could only be sold with their own motherboards and their own RAM (like that Rambus thingy). For the other interconnects (PCI-bus) they would release only limited information so you could build somewhat your own cards (like IBM did with MCA) but then you would make something good and they would just copy it and because they have 'secret' information about their pro
Re: (Score:2)
Under current law, you can have a monopoly so long as you don't use that monopoly to gain a monopoly to another market. Microsoft used their desktop OS monopoly to get a browser monopoly and then a media player monopoly.
Saying "browsers" and "media players" are whole markets unto themselves is like saying "TCP/IP stacks" or "text editors" are.
Incidentally, it's hard to argue with a straight face that Microsoft's "monopoly" was the reason it dominated the browser and media player markets, when Netscape di
Re: (Score:2)
Likely modded into oblivion (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know what you're talking about when you say "nothin is being done". There are countless posts on this very website in which people complain about each and every one of those things you mention. What
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't see why you say the government is up in arms about MS's monopoly. They aren't. As soon as Bush came into office, the DoJ did their very best to let MS off the hook. Some state governments are up in arms about them, but that only lasts as long as it takes for M
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
A slightly trollish comment of mine was modded up to IIRC 4 before I self-replied and pointed out how I'd gamed the system by saying that, and both were promptly -1'd.
So, proposed new rule. If someone says they know they'll get modded down, mods should do so.
Re: (Score:2)
{whoosh} as nobody gets that.
Re: (Score:2)
That'd be spelled with two 'g's. And yes, some of us are familiar with the NATO designations for Soviet/Russian fighters.
Re: (Score:2)
Website for FGUP RSK "MiG" - http://www.migavia.ru/ [migavia.ru]
MiG comes, of course, from the last names of the two designers - Mikoyan and Gurevich (Not GGurevich, lol)
Re: (Score:2)
We were referring to the NATO code name for the MiG-15, "Faggot". Two 'g's.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I switched to mac a couple years ago, and it made a HUGE impact as I had to get and learn all new software. And I haven't been able to get rid of the PC (in fact, I recently got a new one as m
Re: (Score:2)
Market Share is unlikely to drop for a long time (Score:2, Insightful)
The advantages are more toward business IT and developers, and less toward home-users....but the former are the ones who drive the market.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Bert
Who runs a company
Re:Market Share is unlikely to drop for a long tim (Score:3, Insightful)
Nonsense. It wants a standard (for portability), that doesn't have to be provided by a monopoly. In fact there already is a standard for operating systems, ISO/IEC 9945 [unix.org], and most IT vendors support it (or something very close).
Microsoft (and some uninformed natterers not clear on the point) call their products "standard", but they're confusing that term with "ubiquitous". Heck, given that there are so many not very compatible versions of Microsofts own products, th
One thing I'll never understand ... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is one main thing that maintains microsoft's illegal monopoly: interoperability.
If the settlement had said "You (M$) must make your file formats and server protocols (exchange) available", there would be a whole lot more folks not needing to buy MS products because there would be other viable* alternatives.
* Yes, I know about (and use) OpenOffice, Evolution, etc
- Roach
Re: (Score:2)
Re:One thing I'll never understand ... (Score:5, Insightful)
And you don't think this is by design?
Why else would everyone need the latest version?
- Roach
Re: (Score:2)
And you don't think this is by design?
Why else would everyone need the latest version?
Only partly. Part of it is that they simply can't. Hell even if there's a difference in the installed fonts or a different sized screen, documents have to be reformatted by hand to look good.
Basically, DOC is a shit format for exchanging documents... Actually more than that, DOC files just don't look good at all on screen, and very often even differ significantly from what appears on the printer.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course, MS Office does have 100% interop. I can save and load all prior versions of Office docs from 2007, should I choose.
Because you can't have interop by design... (Score:2)
And yet, have you EVER seen an error saying that you cannot use this web page that was anything except someone making a page IE-only in the past 5 years?
Funny, that. That you don't have to break compatibility for new features. Especially for new documents not using the new features.
Re: (Score:2)
Bullshit.
Try it with, oh, say, a Microsoft Office 5 for Mac doc file and see how far you get.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Interoperability, on the other hand, refers to deliberately making format accessible from other platform. It's not necessary open format, say, Acrobat PDF could be regarded as interoperable format, because its company deliberately to mak
Re: (Score:2)
More importantly, I like how you use such flowery, angry language to describe that "convicted monopolist" and "illegal monopoly" then go on to complain about ridiculous things like having to mail yourself an Oo doc. I sure think it's worth it to use government conficscation (that's what monopoly and anti-trust law are - the assertion that something is so importan
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Novel Solution (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, they continue to abuse their position. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, government interference doesn't tend to "go away" when the problem is gone in some of the cases.
How about we try something really different.
For the next two years, any Windows ad must include the tag line (emphasized somewhere, not hidden)
The operating system you should chose for your computer
It's not outright annoying to them (as requiring "it is possible to use something other than Windows on your computer" would be).
Re: (Score:2)
But it will get people questioning... "What do you mean chose?"
Re: (Score:2)
But it will get people questioning... "What do you mean chose?"
I'm asking that right now. What do you mean by "chose"? Do you mean "choose"?
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, "chose" rhymes with "rose", and "loose" rhymes with "moose", but "choose" rhymes with "lose" rhymes with "ooze". No, I know it doesn't make any sense. Deal with it.
(Latter not addressed to parent, who obviously understands that.)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
They haven't abused anything. They're a business, barring fraud, assault, corruption of government officials they haven't done shit wrong under the decree or in fact even before it.
About The Best Thing The Fed And States Could Do (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft and herpes (Score:2)
Minor Correction:
"Rather than informing everyone that Microsoft is corporate herpes...
Re: (Score:2)
In this case, a single massively dominant OS is actually good in most ways, but possibly not in terms of the longevity and compatib
Re: (Score:2)
Unless you've been living under a rock for the last 2 years, many governments have been doing exactly this. Microsoft's answer is to try to get OOXML ratified as an ISO standard so they can tick the "stores documents in an ISO standard form" box.
Department of (IN)Justice (Score:4, Interesting)
Judge Kollar-Kotelly needs to view any DOJ testimony with skepticism.
The official, Assistant Attorney General Thomas O. Barnett, had until 2004 been a top antitrust partner at Covington & Burlington, the law firm that has represented Microsoft in several antitrust disputes.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/arti
Enjoy,
Re: (Score:2)
Given the involvement of companies like Sun and Netscape in the original DOJ action against MS, perhaps judges should have been skeptical of the DOJ throughout the entire process, not just today.
Re: (Score:2)
Either your an MS Partner or just ignorant. The first monopoly trial was in 1991 before Sun/Netscape. The second trial was during the Clinton years (Bill Gates giving a High Five to his lawyer team as he left the DOJ trial is on tape). The third trial was in between the CLinton/Bush transition.
This is all on trans
Re: (Score:2)
I was referring to the most significant case, United States v. Microsoft. Clearly the companies I mentioned were deeply involved in the case and received millions of dollars in money from MS due to the outcome.
Now the states who have companies that compete with MS want to leave the option open to easily extort more money from MS f
Re: (Score:2)
Your right, I stand corrected.
Enjoy,
Putative? (Score:1)
putative [reference.com]
You keep using that word. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Re: (Score:2)
Microsoft was never found to have acquired or incr (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
LoB
The time to act is now. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Office software suites. You had to have known that, but office suites != operating systems.
Re: (Score:2)
The second half of your post (the rant) rather nicely describes the file format of ODF, IMHO.
If you don't believe me, try to unzip one. Preferably with pictures (odp) or spreadsheet cells (ods). If you're on MS Windows and winzip refuses to unzip it, try another unzip program.
I'm not sure about your "+ javascript", though; what would be the added benefit of that? I don't find javascript such a well-specified language (yes I'm aware that ECMAscript exists, but still).
The ODF spec is he [oasis-open.org]