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E-Voting Report Finds Problems with Modern Elections 165

JonRob writes "The Open Rights Group has released a report on challenges faced by voting technology. Using the May 2007 Scottish/English elections as a testbed, researchers have collated hundreds of observations into a verdict on voting in the digital age. 'The report provides a comprehensive look at elections that used e-counting or e-voting technologies. As a result of the report's findings ORG cannot express confidence in the results for the areas we observed. This is not a declaration we take lightly but, despite having had accredited observers on location, having interviewed local authorities and having filed Freedom of Information requests, ORG is still not able to verify if votes were counted accurately and as voters intended.' The report is available online in pdf format for download."
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E-Voting Report Finds Problems with Modern Elections

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  • by timmarhy ( 659436 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @05:06PM (#19601175)
    give me one problem with paper ballots? seriously you nerds, this is a solution in search of a problem.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ajenteks ( 943860 )
      The problem is it takes too much effort to steal an election if you use paper, duh!
    • by EmbeddedJanitor ( 597831 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @05:16PM (#19601265)
      For many purposes it is very hard to beat dead trees and pencils. Just because something can be computerised does not mean it should be.

      The major reason that the unwashed masses don't really care about paper vs electronic ballots is that they really don't care about politics and voting. If this was to do with something important to most people (eg. What is on TV tonight) then you'd get people interested.

    • give me one problem with paper ballots?

      Blindness and other disabilities. Sure you could print braille ballots. So how about paraplegia, bilateral hand amputation, etc.? DRE voting machines can be adapted for a suck-and-blow interface. I can't think of a paper adaptation except for having someone else help the voter.

      • by HardCase ( 14757 )
        I can't think of a paper adaptation except for having someone else help the voter.

        An excellent solution.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by AuMatar ( 183847 )
        Then have someone help the voter. In front of witnesses, so there's no chance of them being cheated. For the seeing impaired (but not blind) use large fonts on special paper and have vision magnification machines they can put them under in a suitably private area. That reduces the number of people who need help to a small percentage of the population (less than 1%) and we can just help them rather than come up with Rube Goldberg device to accomodate them.
        • by qbwiz ( 87077 ) *
          Then have someone help the voter. In front of witnesses, so there's no chance of them being cheated.

          Well, that really defeats the purpose of a secret ballot, then.
          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by halcyon1234 ( 834388 )
            Well, that really defeats the purpose of a secret ballot, then.

            Then just have a trusted witness. Judges, notaries, court clerks and most religious figures are already authorized to bear witness for official documents. Just have one on hand, or let someone bring their own if there's an issue. The ballot is still a secret, because the person's vote will be held in confidence.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by AuMatar ( 183847 )
            Welcome to life. There's no perfect answers. We have the following options

            1)Secret electronic ballot, but no verification on the count, risking all of our right to vote being comprimised. But a small minority of the people who have problems voting may be able to get a secret ballot. Maybe. If those alternative input methods are actually developed for all needs. I see the ggp post does not help the blind and deaf for example.

            2)Secret paper ballot, no help offered. The vast majority of people get to
          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by jabuzz ( 182671 )
            You do realize in the United Kingdom (where this pertains to) the ballots are only secret because nobody actually bothers to cross reference the ballot paper serial number against the electoral register where the serial number of the ballot paper was noted down against your name and number?

            In theory the idea is that if there is alergations of ballot paper tampering then we can go back and ask the person who they voted for and check the ballot paper. Not that it ever happens in practice, even when there has
        • by mpe ( 36238 )
          Then have someone help the voter. In front of witnesses, so there's no chance of them being cheated.

          That someone could also be someone chosen by the voter or they could appoint someone to ack as their proxy. Proxy (and absentee) voting is likely to need steps to prevent organised fraud. However it isn't the job of the state to cover the voter being simply foolish.

          For the seeing impaired (but not blind) use large fonts on special paper and have vision magnification machines they can put them under in a s
      • right because spending huge amounts of money on your stupid suck and blow interface is better then just having someone help them because?????......

        face it, there's better things for us to be doing.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by zCyl ( 14362 )
        For blindness, you can just have a braille voter card with a raised box to punch a hole out of.

        So how about paraplegia, bilateral hand amputation, etc.?

        They have to find some way to interface with the world, whether by feet, hands, assistance, or voice command to a computer. But then for their vote to have any verified chance of being counted, they will also need some way to verify its contents after being printed out to a physical copy, either by touch (braille) or by sight.

        Using a computer interface is N

      • i personally like the idea of electronic voting, for above mentioned reasons.

        however, i do not like the idea of electronic vote counting. make the machine simply print out a standard human-readable ballot and have actual people count the damn things, just like we do now, which makes a electrion difficult to rig, and still allows for the benefits of the electronic voting machines.

        we get the best of both worlds that way.
        • we get the best of both worlds that way.

          Well, except for the fact that you've just replaced a $0.25 pen or $1.29 sharpie marker with a $600 electronic voting machine for a somewhat marginal benefit. There's a good argument for having one electronic voting interface that prints out pre-filled paper ballot for the disabled, but buying a significant number of electronic voting machines is simply a waste of taxpayer money.

          • yes, but fiscal responsibility never seems to win over anyone [that matters] down in the US. i may not like the fact, but the thoughts of the corporations need to be considered in such matters for anything to get down the way things are in government now.

            though I'm just fine with pure paper ballots, as the system up here in Canada has worked just fine and in all likelihood will continue to work fine for the foreseeable future, and even my grandma (who is 94 and legally blind) can use our big, simple ballot
      • 98% of people being able to cast a reliable vote is much more useful than 100% of people being able to cast an untrustworthy vote.

        Letting blind people vote is absolutely an interesting problem, but spending a hundred thousand dollars per polling station to require everyone to use untrustworthy electronic voting machines is an absurd solution. That's like requiring that everyone run the Boston Marathon in a wheelchair.

    • by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @05:22PM (#19601333) Homepage
      Chads

      Long history of people cheating them (While the current system sucks, a combo of electtronic + paper if properly done, can double our chances of catching fraud)

      Takes too long to count.

      Takes up a lot of space.

      Costs a lot more money.

      If someone is removed from the ballot, we have to reprint, which may not happen in time

      Delivery must be assured with enough to all, which means a lot of waste

      Blind people have issues

      People that don't read english have issues

      Ballot design for large number of possible candidates - people seriously want to be the guy on the top of the list, it gives a small, but real boost to their numbers

      Oh wait, you just wanted ONE issue. Hm. Hard too choose just one.

      • by Amoeba ( 55277 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @05:32PM (#19601435)
        For something that is supposed to be a cornerstone of our country, you'd think that the money, time, and other issues you list would be minor problems when compared to the overall purpose and goal of voting and the importance of integrity of accurate count and auditing. As an aside, why is election day *not* a national holiday? A serious WTF?

        Of all the issues you list (and I'm sure others could come up with additional problems) not a single one of them is an issue around the ability to tally the numbers with accuracy.
        • As an aside, why is election day *not* a national holiday? A serious WTF?
          As much as people can argue about whether to just use paper ballots or use verifiable electronic ballots, I don't know of anyone who thinks election day shouldn't be a national holiday. So, I'll second your question. How hard could it be to make this happen?
          • At least in the USA you have to be given enough time off to vote.

            More fundamentally many think encouraging everybody to vote is a good thing. I disagree. Encouraging everybody to become informed is a good thing. IMHO Keeping the uninformed from voting is actually a good thing.

            • by Qzukk ( 229616 )
              At least in the USA you have to be given enough time off to vote.

              How much is enough? If you come in a half day late because the election organizers dropped the wrong machines off at your precinct and when the correct machines were brought in hours later, half of them didn't work, is that "enough time off"?
            • If they don't vote they'll go "eh, not my fault. I didn't vote." If they do vote and find out their candidate is a real cocksucker they'll be angry and might even start to educate themselves. Getting people to become informed isn't as important as getting people to no longer be disenfranchised with the election process. Once that happens becoming informed will follow. Unfortunately the two major parties have a strong incentive to keep people disenfranchised.
            • by ppanon ( 16583 )
              It's hard to be well informed when nearly all major news outlets are providing partial or complete disinformation.

              Case in point, the reporting on the incompetency of the Bush administration in its first 4 years prior to the 2004 election. I wasn't fooled, but apparently more than half the American public was, although it helped that they wanted to be fooled because the so-called liberal media were marketing or white-washing a right-wing nightmare as a seductive pipe-dream.
            • You need all day to vote?

              Voting is pretty important. I think that any potential downside of giving people the whole day off, even every year for local elections, is a risk I'm willing to take.

            • Encouraging everybody to become informed is a good thing. IMHO Keeping the uninformed from voting is actually a good thing.
              If people had all day, maybe they'd take the time to become informed. (Allow me my dreams.)
        • Which elections? If every election day was a holiday, then you wouldn't get a lot of work done between the new hospital levy issue and the fire department needing a new truck and, oh, Judge Bob's term is over we need to elect a new one.

          Of course, making election day a holiday would help nobody in the states that do voting via mail now.
          • Which elections? If every election day was a holiday...

            One day a year becomes "Election Day", a day off. This will occasionally require emergency elections off-schedule, but it should be possible to schedule most elections into one day a year.

            Of course, making election day a holiday would help nobody in the states that do voting via mail now.

            Voting by mail is pretty sketchy.

      • your e-voting system does nothing to solve any of those issues except for taking longer to count, which frankly pales in comparison to having a verifible count.

      • by RealSurreal ( 620564 ) * on Thursday June 21, 2007 @05:58PM (#19601713)
        My council was one of those piloting electronic counting. The main stated reason for doing so was to save time. They started counting on Thursday at 10pm. They declared the result the following Tuesday. With a manual count the result in usually known sometime on the Friday.
      • by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @06:42PM (#19602251) Journal

        Chads

        Use a pencil or stamp, not physical holes. No chads!

        Long history of people cheating them (While the current system sucks, a combo of electtronic + paper if properly done, can double our chances of catching fraud)

        Keyword IF. Given that electronic systems have been demonstrated to be laughably easy to tamper with, may as well just use all paper and be done with it. You can also serialize the paper ballots using UV reactive ink, barcodes or RFID tags to be sure none are missing when they're counted. Anything that is reasonably impossible for someone to read would work, so they can't associate a particular person with a particular ballot. (Before you ask, you don't have to hand out the ballots in consecutive order, either.)

        Takes too long to count.

        Paper ballots can still be machine counted. Use those "bingo card" markers (but in black) and you won't have any problems with half-filled circles or fills that aren't dark enough.

        Takes up a lot of space.

        I hear the latest electronic systems hold away into your shirt pocket when you're done with them. They're also indestructible and can't possibly be damaged if handled roughly or exposed to less than perfect storage conditions for any length of time.

        Costs a lot more money.

        Those electronic kiosks are also free for life, never need maintenance or replacement, specially trained handlers and tighter security.

        If someone is removed from the ballot, we have to reprint, which may not happen in time

        OR you can post flyers and signs at the voting places, and have the attendant (who checks if you're registered to vote and would presumably hand you the ballots) strike off the name with a sharpie.

        Delivery must be assured with enough to all, which means a lot of waste

        District FOO has QUXX registered voters. Send them 1.10*QUXX ballots. Have someone sign off that they received the alloted amount. And, as we all know from previous elections, there are ALWAYS enough machines to adequately serve everyone who shows up.

        Hell, done properly with barcodes, you could even print ballots ON DEMAND. Each district gets to print some limited number of "emergency ballots" should they run out.

        Blind people have issues

        The electronic machines have special LCD screens that can telepathically project the choices into a voter's brain, too. Those touchscreens? High-res active tactile feedback so the blind guy knows exactly which virtual button he's putting his finger on.

        People that don't read english have issues

        How'd they manage to register in the first place? I mean, it's not like you can have one set of printed instructions posted somewhere, instead of reprinting them on each and every ballot, right? (I would hope we wouldn't need to translate the candidate's names, too... "George W. Arbusto" would probably be MORE confusing.)

        Ballot design for large number of possible candidates - people seriously want to be the guy on the top of the list, it gives a small, but real boost to their numbers

        If the ballots are serialized (see above) and/or machine readable data is supplied (Datamatrix 2D barcode, RFID chip) then the names on the printed ballot can be randomized. Need more space? We could even use MULTIPLE A4 sized cards. If they're RFID'd and/or barcoded then we can make sure we have a full set from each voter. I doubt we'll ever get that many candidates on one ticket, though.

        Oh wait, you just wanted ONE issue. Hm. Hard too choose just one.

        Yeah, especially when they're all closer to excuses than actual issues.
        =Smidge=
        • The electronic machines have special LCD screens that can telepathically project the choices into a voter's brain, too. Those touchscreens? High-res active tactile feedback so the blind guy knows exactly which virtual button he's putting his finger on.

          Call them out one at a time and have five seconds to touch the screen. Then say "next person" and do not count any touched in that time. If the blind person hasn't decided ahead of time that's going to take a lot of time. But it will encourage them to become informed. The machine can then print out the result in braille and the person can hand it in.

        • by mpe ( 36238 )
          You can also serialize the paper ballots using UV reactive ink, barcodes or RFID tags to be sure none are missing when they're counted. Anything that is reasonably impossible for someone to read would work, so they can't associate a particular person with a particular ballot. (Before you ask, you don't have to hand out the ballots in consecutive order, either.)

          You can have the ballots printed with counterfoils attached with the same number as the paper. These also need not be printed in sequential number.
      • by db32 ( 862117 )
        People that don't read english have no business voting in America.

        I'm all for immigrants, unless you are native American you came to America as an immigrant. The difference being the families showed up at the door they walked up, signed in, and frequently had their names changed and basically had to learn to read and write english to get by. If you want to speak spanish, pay in pesos, and so on, go to mexico. If you really think America is so great, then learn to integrate your culture and quit forcing
        • People that don't read english have no business voting in America.

          That's a valid argument, but there's no reason to get separate political issues mixed up with each other.

          It's possible to support multi-lingual paper ballots, and it's possible to have mono-lingual electronic voting. Voting fraud is too important an issue to let people get distracted by "they should learn english" vs. "that's racist".

          • by mpe ( 36238 )
            It's possible to support multi-lingual paper ballots, and it's possible to have mono-lingual electronic voting. Voting fraud is too important an issue to let people get distracted by "they should learn english" vs. "that's racist".

            The only "natural language" you need on a ballot tend to be proper nouns (the names of people and/or political parties) which don't need to be translated in the first place. If low levels of literacy are an issue you can always print logos and/or photographs as well. Instruction
      • by mpe ( 36238 )
        Chads

        You don't have chads with paper ballots. Since you are marking them not punching them.

        Long history of people cheating them (While the current system sucks, a combo of electtronic + paper if properly done, can double our chances of catching fraud)

        Unless you have a system where the counting can be verified by the average person fraud becomes a lot easier (and fraud detection becomes a lot harder.)

        Takes too long to count.

        With many US elections it wouldn't matter if counting took months. Proper p
    • Cant guarantee that paper ballots are counted accurately either.
      • In Australia we are very confident that votes are properly counted. In fact, in order to issue a rigged count you would have to bribe the opposing party's scrutineers in the 5 minute window between the submission of the scrutineer's form and the beginning of the count for every polling place as well as have all the electoral officers bribed, or else have a mole planted within the committee of each and candidate as well as having all the scrutineers and electoral officers bribed.

        Blind voters select a person
        • by ppanon ( 16583 )

          There's a reason why the 'Australian Vote' is used as the model for most countries that are having their first free and fair elections.


          Yeah... So, how do you explain John Howard? :-)
          • 1) manipulation of the electorate - e.g. how many children were thrown overboard?

            2) taxpayer funded advertising and cash "tax rebates" - e.g. baby bonus and the fridge magnets.

            These are not flaws in our electoral system so much as flaws in the memories and ethics of the voters.
        • Yeah I'm in Australia too.

          What I meant human error comes in to play instead of computer error.
          There is no guarantee that someone accidentally miscounted your vote.
          Its got to happen quite a few times per election.

          I still dont know how the US and UK have so many computer voting problems.
          I could make a voting system with my hands tied behind my back which would work properly.
          • Here's the thing: When there's human error in vote counting, you get a vote wrong. Maybe you get a couple votes wrong. Probably each incorrect vote was an independent mistake, so the errors tend to be random - and random errors will tend to average out.

            On the other hand, when an electronic system makes a mistake it's usually because of a programming or configuration error. This will be the same mistake every time, so the error will tend to accumulate in one direction - meaning that it will give some candid

  • What's the betting they'll sue for some arcane reason? :-)

  • Nothing is Perfect (Score:2, Insightful)

    by reddburn ( 1109121 )

    "I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity." - Friedrich Nietzsche Twilight of the Idols

    I agree that no system is above corruption - paper ballots included - but the lack of any verification is the greatest issue with the e-voting systems currently in use. Election fraud has been with us since the first Greek citizen was bribed for a vote; however, Diebold and others - with help from elected officials - are making a concerted effort to ensure that there is

    • by Tuoqui ( 1091447 )

      I'm not sure what citizens can do beyond what they have been doing, given our current political climate.

      Simple, get a gun and go shoot these assholes. It is part of your Declaration of Independence [archives.gov] and your constitution's second amendment [wikipedia.org]. Those old dead white guys that wrote this stuff in the late 1700's knew what they were doing (better than today's politicians anyways).

    • * The same level of scrutiny placed on debugging the Space Shuttle computer code was placed on something arguably as important, if not more so: the national election

      *Make the code as open and freely viewable as possible. This will ensure maximum review.

      * There was a NATIONAL standard. None of this spotty state-by-state Quality Assurance hooplah. Utilize the standard Southwest Airlines uses: find one rock solid, simple standard and stick to it across the board.

      * Minimalism over Featurism: Make the system as

      • Make the hardware as hard-wired as possible. Utilize ROM-only memory. No memory cards, no FPGAs, no flashable BIOS, but straight up hard-coded hardware. This will greatly reduce the ability to tamper with the system before an election.

        This just makes the hack more expensive, and harder to detect if it's accomplished. Have you ever tried to "audit" an IC?

        There is one essential property of a voting system that no purely electronic system can have: A 83 year old retired painter needs to be able to understand

  • maybe... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Dance_Dance_Karnov ( 793804 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @05:17PM (#19601277) Homepage
    it's just me and I'm not up on all the whys and wherefores but how fricken hard can it be to count something?
    • by kmac06 ( 608921 )
      What's the highest you've ever counted to in your head? What's the largest amount of anything you've ever counted? How many pieces of paper do you think you could count before making a mistake?
    • it's just me and I'm not up on all the whys and wherefores but how fricken hard can it be to count something?

      Try reading what Bruce Schneiner has to say:
      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2004/10/gett ing_out_the.html [schneier.com]

      Of the things he lists, I think the facts that everyone votes on one day & 'we the people' expect results almost immediately are the biggest obstacles to getting a proper count.

  • E-Voting Report Finds Problems with Modern Elections
    In other news: the earth is round and Richard Stallman really is an alien.

    Video at 11.
  • Well, it's more than a bad idea. E-Voting is probably the biggest threat to democracy since the second world war. I'm not exaggerating here. It's the apathy within we should be afraid of.

    But I digress. Let's roll out an analogy here.

    Let's say the government contracted out the counting out of paper ballots to private companies. Let's say again that these companies took your paper ballots into a huge warehouse with blacked out windows and wouldn't tell or show anyone how they were counting the ballots. They simply emerged hours or days later and announced the result. Would you be satisfied with this? Would you accept the result?

    Let's soften the blow. Supposed the company allowed government inspector into the warehouse to supervise the counting. Would that make you feel more confident in the result?

    Now, what is the difference between the warehouse, and the current systems of E-Voting. What is the difference between the warehouse and [b]any[/b] system of E-Voting, present or future? Why accept a computerized count if you wouldn't accept the warehouse. (Of course many people would accept the warehouse, but I digress...)

    You know what the depressing thing is. Most people want E-Voting. Not because they think it's cheaper. Not because they think it's more reliable. It's because they think it's cool.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      My thinking is that it should be illegal to use any voting software unless the source code is available for inspection by anyone. The electronic-voting companies all seem to be saying that the source code is proprietary, nobody is allowed to look at it and see it. I find this frightening. The actual voting in a democracy needs to be secret, but every aspect of counting the votes needs to be completely, absolutely, without exception open.

      as for paper trails-- that's easy; just do the voting using opti

      • The electronic-voting companies all seem to be saying that the source code is proprietary, nobody is allowed to look at it and see it.

        In the US, the FEC requires that the software (source) be reviewed by an approved thrid-party auditor. This should help in theory, but there is no provision for verifying that the binaries loaded, burned, or flashed into the equipment are in fact compiled from the audited source.

      • by Vihai ( 668734 )

        My thinking is that it should be illegal to use any voting software unless the source code is available for inspection by anyone.

        It still is not enough. You cannot know for sure that the code you audited is the one actually running on the hardware it is supposed to run on. A computer is too complex and opaque for a man to verify how it is working.

        On the contrary, paper and pencil are verifiable and you can be quite confident that the person counting your vote will see the X you wrote the same way you

    • by kmac06 ( 608921 )
      Like the other poster said, I think your warehouse analogy only works for closed source voting machines.
      • by roystgnr ( 4015 )
        Like the other poster said, I think your warehouse analogy only works for closed source voting machines.

        Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an "open source voting machine", because there are no computers that execute only human-readable source code. Making it harder to slip trojans in the source code is better than nothing, but there's still no way to be sure that "the" source code is actually in charge of the voting machines. We've already seen electronic voting machines caught running non-certified
  • by peacefinder ( 469349 ) <alan.dewittNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday June 21, 2007 @05:35PM (#19601479) Journal
    For your consideration, may I present my[1] idea for a voter-verifiable counting system:

    ---

    In addition to any other vote-counting or verification system, a county
    elections office could take a full optical scan of the ballot papers.
    The data from these scans would be made available to all who request it;
    anyone could acquire the data and perform their own re-count with any
    method of their own devising.

    This would provide complete transparency for the automated portion of
    the counting process.

    The problem with optical-mark scanners, of course, is that the
    scanner's internal software and firmware is vulnerable to tampering.
    Such a tampered machine cannot change the ballots it reads, but it can
    misinterpret them.

    By providing a raw image scan to the public, we'd be enabling many
    eyes to provide their own interpretation of the ballots. Any
    optical-scan vulnerability would become moot. We would go beyond a
    voter-verified ballot, and get to a voter-verified count.

    This is technically achievable with commercial off-the-shelf hardware
    for well under $100,000 per county in capital expenditures.
    Specifically:

    * Industrial scanners of sufficient reliability are available. At my
    workplace we have a "light" duty commercial scanner with a duty cycle
    of 8,500 scans per day; this machine cost around $7,000. If county
    clerks were to have about 5 days to produce the scans, two of these
    scanners could completely scan the ballots for all but the largest
    counties. And, of course, heavier duty scanners are available.

    * Since industrial scanners are not optimized for ballot reading or
    even optical-mark recognition, it would be much more difficult for any
    malicious entity to successfully tamper with their software to produce
    inaccurate ballot image scans. It's much more difficult for software
    to produce an incorrect image than an incorrect interpretation of an
    image. What's more, these scanners are available from several
    manufacturers; if one distrusts any or all scanner vendors, one could
    simply scan the original ballots with a variety of different
    manufacturers' scanners and compare the results.

    * For the standard optical-scan ballot, a fax-quality scan would be
    sufficient for a voter-verified count. Better scans are possible for
    higher time, money, and data storage budgets, but I don't think they
    would be necessary as a practical matter.

    * The data storage requirement for an approximately fax-quality scan
    of every Oregon ballot - approximately 2 million ballots with 100%
    turnout - would be under 500 gigabytes uncompressed per statewide
    election. (And ballot scans should be highly compressible even with
    lossless and error-correcting algorithms.) Portable hard drives that
    large are available for around $300. Most individual county ballot
    scan datasets would even fit on larger iPods.

    ---

    This brings up a couple other problems, of course. Foremost, the ballots have to be on ADF-feedable paper, and probably had best be marked ballots rather than punched-paper. Also, the question of what to do with a voter-made distinctive or identifying mark on the ballot needs to be addressed. (Distinctive marks could lead to buyer-verified vote buying.)

    But still, it's a huge step beyond just trusting the county's optical-scanning ballot interpreter.

    [1: Actually this is my brother's idea, which I have modified slightly.]
    • In addition to any other vote-counting or verification system, a county
      elections office could take a full optical scan of the ballot papers.
      The data from these scans would be made available to all who request it;
      anyone could acquire the data and perform their own re-count with any
      method of their own devising.


      Vote-buyers could pay people to vote a particular way and make
      an individual identifying mark in some non-significant part of
      the ballot. The scan would enable them to check whether the
      voter had voted as
      • Yup. In most places it would take some legislative changes to implement.

        It's probably true that vote-buying would be a worse problem than inaccurate counting. In Washington (where my brother lives) a ballot with an identifying mark is disqualified. If that were extended to all distinctive marks, then keeping ballot images secret would not be necessary.

        (But then people would start arguing over what constitutes a distinctive mark, naturally.)

        It is undoubtedly a tough problem all around.
        • In Washington (where my brother lives) a ballot with an identifying mark is disqualified.

          How can that work in the presence of write-in votes?

  • by laron ( 102608 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @06:05PM (#19601837)
    - Vote with a computer interface
    - the computer stores your vote
    - you get a receipt how you voted
    - you check and fold the receipt and drop it into a sealed box.

    After the election ends, the computer spits out the results.

    In randomly selected polling places, the paper receipts get counted manually. If there are major differences, more polling stations will be selected for a manual count.
    • by Kijori ( 897770 )
      There's a big problem with that - men waiting outside. If you don't bring your paper receipt out - and have it say the right thing - they break your legs. The chances of it being undetected are high enough for it to be feasible.
      • I've heard of people not RTFA, but not RTFP (post)?

        From the post you responded to:

        - you check and fold the receipt and drop it into a sealed box.

        What this does is let you verify that the computer printed the correct votes. No more "hanging chads" or "double-votes" where someone tries to cross off a mis-vote. Then, once you are satisfied that the computer printed the right things, you drop off what is effectively a paper vote. So the men outside cannot know who you voted for.

        The benefit here is that the electronic votes are tabulated instantly, so once the pol

    • by TheAxeMaster ( 762000 ) on Thursday June 21, 2007 @06:55PM (#19602361)
      Seriously, that's all they need to do. Print a small paper receipt and drop that into a box and the county clerks could even count them all manually, but at their liesure. We'd have an electronic tabulation immediately, no staying up till midnight waiting for results, people working late, etc. Open source the code for peer review and its a solidly secure, reliable system. Who exactly isn't getting this? Oh...the people in charge who are techno idiots. Right...
    • - you get a receipt how you voted
      - you check and fold the receipt and drop it into a sealed box.

      If you mean "ballot", say "ballot". Voting receipts are a bad idea.

      You might be trying to imply that the paper ballots are just for a recount, but that's a bad idea too - it's too easy to block a recount like they did in Ohio, even when the presidential candidates in positions #3 and #4 both demanded a full recount.

  • Is there something so terribly wrong with the scantrons we use so often in college and standardized testing? Quick, easy, and if there is a recount, a quick visible inspection makes it easy to tell who somebody intended to vote for.
    • Note to self: The preview button is there for a reason.
    • Some states have similar ballots: Oklahoma does, for instance. Complete some arrows, and drop it in a scanner on top of the bin. At the end of Election Day, it spits out counts, and the ballots go to the election commission in case a recount is needed. It's probably not a 'perfect' system, but what really is?
      • It's probably not a 'perfect' system, but what really is?

        Perfect is hard, but we can do better than straight optical scan. For example, the separation of sorting and counting machines described here [slashdot.org] is pretty good (although I'm not convinced that marking machines are a good idea compared to sharpies).

  • I'm not for digital voting unless or until it is combined with OpenID, public key privacy, and a very high level of trust. This is not going to happen any time soon.
  • Why not pass it over to the banks? You have to pay for postage on an absentee ballot. I would happily pay that amount of money for a transaction from a bank with a receipt, perhaps an encrypted receipt I could forward to the DNC, RNC, or anyone else counting. I know some people have problems with online banking, but at least where I bank--the boeing employee's credit union--I would safe using this system to ensure my vote gets collected, counted, and a receipt returned to me or anyone else to which I wou
  • by GonzoTheGreat ( 132605 ) on Friday June 22, 2007 @03:26AM (#19605777) Homepage
    It is good to see the report out and see in measured words what those of us watching saw; that the preparation was below standard, procedures far from robust and the systems more black box than the public, candidates and parties happy to cope with.
    I was proud to be part of this observation team and am looking forward to the next project I can give time to.

    If anyone here wants to support the Open Rights Group either financially or buy volunteering to join in in further projects, scoot on over to http://www.openrightsgroup.org/support-org [openrightsgroup.org] and sign up!
  • I did RTFA.

    It sounds like a typical UK government IT scheme:
    • Place lots of power in the hands of outsourced vendors (ie. private companies) yet don't hold them legally accountable for their products.
    • Don't bother testing any of the systems - that's what the pilot is for, isn't it?
    • Don't put anyone with any technical expertise in place on the government side of the supplier/customer relationship.

    In short, such monumental managerial incompetence as to make me question if there are darker forces at work. I know

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