More States Rebel Against Real ID Act 295
Spamicles writes with a link to a Lawbean post about more rebellion against the Real ID act. New Hampshire and Oklahoma have joined Montana and Washington state in passing statutes refuting the ID act's guidelines. "However, these actions could eventually lead to drivers licenses issued in these states to not be accepted as official identification when boarding airplanes or accessing federal buildings. In addition to these four states, members of the Idaho legislature intentionally left out money in the budget to comply with the Act."
What it boils down to (Score:5, Insightful)
Emphasis mine. That's what makes this so unpalatable to the states, just like "No Child Left Behind" or welfare reform. The United States Government is saying "we're going to create these standards and you are going to pay to implement them" and the states are naturally balking at having to foot the bill for Washington D.C.'s foolishness.
And states do it to municipalities (Score:2, Interesting)
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Sadly, yes, not only is our Governor too stupid to wear his seatbelt, but he hasn't done much to stop the unfunded mandates, nor lower property taxes significantly.
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New Jersey (Score:3, Interesting)
Sadly, yes, not only is our Governor too stupid to wear his seatbelt, but he hasn't done much to stop the unfunded mandates, nor lower property taxes significantly.
And what of the Eminient domain [wikipedia.org] cases there? Like the one that took a bunch of people's houses away from them and gave a drug company the property.
FalconRe:And states do it to municipalities (Score:5, Informative)
Unfunded mandates is the natural effect of Congress' abuse of its Spending Power. Once upon a time, Congress' power to spend was limited to spending necessary to fund its other enumerated powers. Somewhere in time (1930s?), Congress began to expand its realm and the Courts acquiessed.
Now, it is generally believed that Congress can legislate anything provided it allocates funding first (barring some Amendment violation). So, for a while Congress started funding all sorts of crazy things so it could enact laws beyond its enumerated reach. Eventually, Congress' ability to legislate overreached its ability to fund. Thus, Unfunded Mandates.
What is needed is a concerted challenge in SCOTUS to return Congress to its legitimate role of legislating within its enumerated powers, and spending within those powers.
The net effect is lower federal taxes.
State legislatures, conversely, have no enumerated power limitations (in the U.S. Const. anyway). So, they can legislate all the social programs, etc. you want. Local officials locally responsible.
Perhaps Congress could legitimately advocate for certain policies (e.g. Real ID), but it could not use money or the scent of money to enforce it. States have successfully legislated uniform reforms (Uniform Commercial Code, for example); but this is not absolute uniformity. The proper answer is State actions to make things uniform, not Congress imposing beyond its legitimate reach.
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As tempting as it is for those espousing conservative political views to blame the New Deal, it actually stems from 1913 [wikipedia.org]. Unfunded mandates are nothing more than a natural consequence of removing the state legislatures' ability to say "no."
This is not to say that the states themselves have not been complicit in this (after all, they only object to expansion of federal powers when it's politically expedient), but blam
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Citing the 17th Amendment does nothing to my assertion that the Court began serious abdication of authority in checking Congress in the 1930s. The confrontation between FDR and the Court (such as the Court packing plan that failed) and his ability to outlast them and ap
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State's right's activists protest the fact that the Federal Government, which was created by the States not the other way 'round, has taken up the habit of saying "Okay Ohio, you have to spend $
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You're required to have car insurance, if you have a car, in every state I know of
Car insurance, like seat belts, are really good ideas but are not mandated by law in New Hampshire [freestateproject.org].
Re:What it boils down to (Score:5, Interesting)
The Federal government can dump as much cash on us as they want and we still are bound by law not to comply.
The exact wording of the bill [generalcourt.org] that Governor Lynch is expected to sign this week or next says:
[T]he public policy established by Congress in the Real ID Act of 2005, Public Law 109-13, is contrary and repugnant to Articles 1 through 10 of the New Hampshire constitution as well as Amendments 4 though 10 of the Constitution for the United States of America. Therefore, the state of New Hampshire shall not participate in any driver's license program pursuant to the Real ID Act of 2005 or in any national identification card system that may follow therefrom.
By the way, if click on the generalcourt.org link above, you'll notice that each legislator has a "liberty grade." Just like in school, from "A" thru "F" -- the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance [nhliberty.org] rates each and every one of the 400 State Representatives, based on how the actually vote on freedom-related bills, every year. Just one of the many things that become possible as a critical mass of pro-liberty activists concentrate on a single state.
By the way... one of the sponsors of the bill, Rep. Winters, is a Free-Stater -- check his acceptance speech [youtube.com]
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By the way, if click on the generalcourt.org link above, you'll notice that each legislator has a "liberty grade." Just like in school, from "A" thru "F" -- the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance [nhliberty.org] rates each and every one of the 400 State Representatives, based on how the actually vote on freedom-related bills, every year. Just one of the many things that become possible as a critical mass of pro-liberty activists concentrate on a single state.
For the record, this sort of ranking doesn't require any sort of critical mass -- just a few people (or just one) to rate representatives, and a web page to put your results.
I'm not saying I disagree with the free state concept at all -- I love it, actually -- but merely ranking representatives, that can be done by anybody in any state.
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While I applaud this move...I don't find NH to truly be the freedom state. I've got a friend up there, not far from the Boston border. I can't believe all the freedom inhibiting laws they have. NO happy hour (can do 2 for 1 drinks), no smoking in any restaurants OR even bars. The cops seem out to nab you for just about anything...muffler or motorcycle slightly less that totally silent..ticket.
I will g
Re:What it boils down to (Score:5, Informative)
But all that is missing the point; it's not to say that NH is already "free"; if it were, there'd be no point in a Free State Project, now, would there? The point is that the structure of government here is amazing open and accessible, and the culture is already liberty-oriented.
If you'd like some details about why NH was a good choice as the target state, I suggest you read this PDF [lpnh.org].
Re:What it boils down to (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh yeah, and a few weeks ago NH became one of only 4 states in the USA to allow same-sex civil unions. We are the only state to have done so purely on the initiative of the legislature, and not as the result of any lawsuit.
Free State Project (Score:3, Insightful)
I assume, however, that NH requires and issues drivers licenses? Has restaurant health codes? Anti-monopoly practices? Liquor and pornography laws? A whole slew of laws, rules and regulations, just like every other "nanny" state?
The aim of the Free State Project was to find a state where liberty loving people could move to who would then turn the state around on it's head and eventually get rid of all these laws, rules, and regulations. NH comes as close to this already as most any state, and the projec
Money Money Money (Score:2)
You're right and wrong. *Some* states are not balking at the concept, only the price. Montana and Washington State are treditionally independent. But most states simply do
Re:What it boils down to (Score:4, Insightful)
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There may be plenty of problems with NCLB - complaints I've heard include that it encourages "teaching to the test" (solution - get a better school administr
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While that may be true on the surface, in fact the Federal government has under-funded the programs that are supposed to work to support the act, leaving the states to foot the bill, using already stretched school budgets (Note: they are stretched because frankly a lot of that money is being wasted... but I digress).
It isn't enough for Washington to come up with ideas -- they have to make the ideas practical and easily fundable. But when it comes to money, Washington is a town full of amnesiacs.
Re:What it boils down to (Score:4, Insightful)
Although you make a good point, you need to dig one layer further to see that some states object on moral (or at least, autonomy) grounds rather than merely due to funding issues...
You can break states up into "welfare" and "SugarDaddy" states (This has a very high correlation with red-vs-blue, incidentally, but I don't mean this post to start a partisan flamewar). The states that have so far objected to Real Id, almost without fail, fall among the SugarDaddy states, the ones with a net outflow of money vs federal taxes.
If your hypothesis (that most objecting states do so primarily for economic reasons) held true, then you would expect to see the exact opposite pattern among objectors/SugarDaddies. As the funding comes from the states anyway, whether directly or via the federal government, having each state pay their own way would cost the SugarDaddies less, overall.
Thus, by reductio ad absurdum, your hypothesis appears false... Though I would still applaud you for raising the point, since regardless of whether the states or the feds pay, we the people still get stuck with the bill at the end of the day (or April 15th, in this case).
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WHEREAS, Real ID would provide little security benefit and
still leave identification systems open to insider fraud,
counterfeit documentation, and database failures; therefore,
be it
RESOLVED, BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE
NINETY-FIFTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, THE
SENATE CONCURRING HEREIN, that the Illinois General Assembly
supports the government of the United States in its campaign
against terrorism and affirms the commitment
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I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying the states are balking at picking up the price tag. I for one wouldn't mind the standardization of license information for the purposes of making it easier to identify drivers within the United States. I draw the line at turning it into a nationalized ID system for the purposes of tracking people. And frankly, if the US Government thinks this up, then they should foot part of the bill for its implementation, since this is a national program. The money in the Fed
Re:What it boils down to (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What it boils down to (Score:4, Insightful)
You'd probably get a significant increase in visitors from outside the US as well. I can't speak for terrorists, but I know that I have declined to visit the US on both professional and personal grounds since 9/11 — and not because I think terrorists are going to fly my plane into a building.
Re:What it boils down to (Score:4, Insightful)
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Well, if you are talking about the Federal govt...then technically...yes.
The fed. govt. was set up to be a very small and weak entity. The true power of the US is supposed to rest with the individual states. This, however, has been bastardized over the years....with the Feds grabbing power that really should not rest with them. They are NOT supposed to have the authority to tell states what to do, no.
R
Airlines (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Airlines (Score:4, Insightful)
And if you can afford an airline ticket, you can certainly afford a passport - which is a lot better than making even people who never fly pay more for a passport-level driver's license. As a side benefit, holding a passport may even lead more people to get out and explore the wider world, and get beyond the parochial American point-of-view on a few things.
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Say I find my wife and I both manage to have a weekend off at the same time our son's visiting his grandmother. If we needed a passport to board a flight and one of us didn't have one, we'd be unable to take a spur of the moment flight
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Good! (Score:3)
Re:Good! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm old enough to remember the country-wide 55 mph. federal mandate that was put in place durng to the last energy crises. States that did not comply with the mandated maximum speed limit (I think Wyoming was one) lost their federal funding for highways and transportation.
OTOH, we already have a federal ID. It's called a passport. Washington can (and has) changed regulations and requirements for passports. They should leave drivers' licenses and state issued ID's alone.
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We're all old enough to remember lowering the DUI limit from
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We're also old enough to remember when many states had the legal drinking age a 18....but, were blackmailed into raising to 21 due to highway fund witholding....
Re:Good! (Score:4, Insightful)
Scenario: Big guy tries to coerce the little guys into doing something they don't want to do by offering them a competitive advantage. This type of coercion cannot work if all the little guys agree not to acccept the advantage. They remain on equal footing. But if one of them does, they all must do so or be left at a competitive disadvantage. The mafia works the same way, and it only works because of human greed. The states were accepted the "federal funding" deals from the government. This happens on highways, schools, etc. Now they are stuck - they can't go back now, but they don't want to comply with the ever-increasing dirty deeds they must perform. It's exactly how the mafia works. If nobody paid the protection money in the first place, we would all be better off.
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Obviously the Ideal scenario for both criminals is neither talks, but if they don't talk and the other does, they get the slammer forever and a day. The logical result is for the criminal to talk (state to accept the "federal Funding" deal) Because that way they know they get at least a lighter sentence, and have no chance of maximum time.
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Not really since the prisoner's dilemma requires that neither be allowed to talk to each other. In the world of state vs federal politics, the state governors meet annually and nothing at all prevents them from issuing a joint resolution to do x in response to the federal government demanding y. Well, all of them would have to successfully sell strategy x to all of their respective state legislatures but tha
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In fact, (Score:2)
Passport != National ID (Score:3, Informative)
By the Constitution, nobody is required to produce ANY paperwork (IDs included) for the feds unless a judge specifically says a specific person has to under specific conditions. "Real ID" grossly violates the Constitution.
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For states however, that's not always the case. If you're found wandering about as an adult without adequate ID in my state (Florida), that alone is enough to send you to jail until such time as you can produce some documentation confirming who you are. While I don't necessarily like this, I do understand the state's right to require it and feel that, for the most part, this law protects me more tha
id required (Score:3, Insightful)
If you're found wandering about as an adult without adequate ID in my state (Florida), that alone is enough to send you to jail until such time as you can produce some documentation confirming who you are
This must be new, less than 10 years old. I grew up in FL and while living there there was no requirement to carry id, you only needed a dl while driving.
I do understand the state's right to require it
I don't, it's only needed if you want a police state. And requiring an id is an assault on anon
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That might occur, but this is actually a touch harder. As I've understood things, there still needs to be some relationship between the blackmailing and the item for which the government is doing it. The 55mph speed limit was a requirement on government highways that the federal government pays for. The raised drinking age was to prevent drunk dr
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Similar to the old Daniel Boone line: "when you can hear the sound of your neighbor's axe, it is time to move to the next valley"
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I'm of two minds on the RealID act. On the one hand, there are some serious privacy concerns that need to be addressed. IIRC, RFID is also mandated for the cards, which I really don't like. However, unlike many of the supposed security measures that have been implemented lately, there are actually some tangible benefits to this system. Better information sharing between states, ha
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I can see an issue here. (Score:4, Interesting)
Just how long have we got to wait until the Neo conservative ruling class get deposed?
I'm something of a fan of Pulp SF, particularly the early stuff, your EE 'Doc' Smith and the like. His worlds were full of the kind of people who would love this stuff. Fanatically loyal, good clean white folk, ready to believe, and die for, anything a government told them. They were also undeniably Aryan in nature.
When it comes to fiction, especially fiction of such historical importance to the world of SF I am willing to dismiss such concepts as products of a different age and enjoy traversing the early history of SF. However, to see people trying to change America in such a way that only the fictional American Aryans of the 1930's would accept it as is, is a frightening thing indeed.
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Ok, fair enough, with you here.
Just how long have we got to wait until the Neo conservative ruling class get deposed?
A little weird now... "deposed?" The answer is, "until you vote them out," by the way. Then we get a new ruling class of bleeding-heart pinkos.
I'm something of a fan of Pulp SF, particularly the early stuff, your EE 'Doc' Smith and the like. Hi
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My point is that only people like that would accept the kind of controls being placed on the American population without a fight.
deposed may not be the right word, but hell, since elections appear to be just as easily won in the courtroom as in the counting room, I wonder how wrong I am.
Everybody is missing the states rights issue (Score:4, Interesting)
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In this case, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
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There are a few solid if not often reviewed (Score:2)
Right... (Score:2)
Yeah, cause entire states are not going to be able to buy plane tickets or enter federal buildings. I see that happening... I mean after all it's not like the airline industry has any lobbyists in Washington, and it's not as though the federal government will notice if suddenly all their employees in a given state stop s
Oklahoma (Score:2, Interesting)
One of the reasons we don't want to spend all the $$ to comply with RealID, is that
we just completely redid our driver's licenses in the last 4 years, at a significant cost.
The new ones are much harder to fake, and have both index finger's prints electronically bar coded on them.
Our ID's have plenty of info about us now, no more is necessary.
The Fed, just needs to mind its own broken fences, instead of telling us how to keep ours from falling.
Thoughts.... (Score:2, Insightful)
So the feds are going to tell a few million residents of these states that suddenly as of such and such a date they can no longer fly? Sure, like that's going to happen. We're already at or near the tipping point on this -- if even a few more states say "no thanks" it could hopefully sabotage the whole thing. This could turn into a major federal power vs. states rights battle -- after all, licensing is a function traditionally assigned to the state level.
Realistically, though, I think sooner or later the
did not one person mention (Score:2)
IDs are for commercial airplanes. (Score:2)
Or rather, commercial airplanes. I don't believe such rules apply to private or chartered planes, such as in which them rich peoples fly...
Awesome (Score:2)
I once turned the tide for a crucial state reform bill by grabbing four friends and handing out flyers for 3 hours in front of supermarkets in certain legislators' dis
so if the feds enforce it, statenlos menschen (Score:2)
at which point those states can withhold taxes and national cooperation and "go private," which message the bushers can probably understand. they wouldn't catch on if those states "seceded from the Union." but going private, they'd probably get awards.
if anybody from the US was allowed across the borders to present the awards.
it's all totally ridiculous. going to the brink of national bankruptcy to force states out. we onc
Re:My senator never heard of it. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the one I meant to paste:
. . for contacting me regarding your opposition to a national identification system. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on this important issue and I share your concerns.
There are currently no plans in place to institute a national identification system, although some people have suggested this idea as a measure to combat terrorism. Any such system would face serious legal and constitutional challenges. For example, implementing a national identification system would potentially infringe upon recognized privacy rights and the right to travel within the United States. Like you, I am very concerned about protecting our civil liberties from unnecessary government intrusion. I am aware of this concept, and will continue to monitor this situation closely.
Thank you again for taking the time to contact me. Please do not hesitate to do so again whenever I may be of assistance.
Sincerely,
Debbie Stabenow
United States Senator
DS:jm
Re:Big deal. (Score:5, Insightful)
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They're sure as hell not going to throw all that extra power away.
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Their reasoning goes something like this: people sometimes engage in interstate commerce. Therefore, any law that affects people affects interstate commerce.
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Re:Big deal. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, they are, but at this point it is too late to end those programs at the federal level and replace them with state programs. Which is too bad. I, for one, would like to see some states take a more Canadian approach to public services while other states take a more free-market approach, and compare and contrast the results. States have a powerful function as "laboratories of democracy," as I believe someone said. And once a few states work out the initial bugs in their plans, other states can implement the best solutions, and everyone would be better off.
Re:Big deal. (Score:4, Insightful)
States have a powerful function as "laboratories of democracy," as I believe someone said
That would be Louis Brandeis [wikipedia.org], Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court. Sandra Day O'Connor [wikipedia.org] had a similar thought process in her dissent in Gonzales v. Raich: "Federalism promotes innovation by allowing for the possibility that "a single courageous State may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country."
Where are those justices when you need them?
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Re:Big deal. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? the delegation of identification is not, constitutionally, the purview of the federal Government and as such it falls under the 10th amendment. Just because something might be a good idea and might be useful does not mean it should be forced on the states despite clear constitutional roles. The more money and or information you give the federal government the more power you hand them.
They didn't say the changes had to be done tomorrow, and the pros outweigh the cons.
I don't think letting the federal government continue to push unfunded and unconstitutional mandates is any small measure of 'bad'.
Passports are the same throughout the states
Passports are not issued by the states
license plates are the same
No they are not EG California has a format of 1ABC234 and Minnesota has ABC-123
social security numbers are the same
Not issued by the states, they are issued by the fed for federal taxing purposes.
What's the big deal? Who is it hurting?
Evidently the states who have to let the federal government make decisions for them and the force the states to pay for it.
Basically immigrants and those who don't want to be followed by "the man".
Oh yea cause if you don't have anything to hide why would you be against repealing the unlawful search and seizure provisions of the constitution. I am assuming you mean illegal immigrants who don't want to be tracked and if they are already here illegally why in the heck would this stop them.
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However, regulation of immigration is in the federal governments purview, per Article 1 section 8 paragraph 4.
Coupled wi
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Yes that would be why states don't issue green cards. How does that contradict what I said?
"Congress has the right to establish laws concerning national standards for ID cards as it would be a means of identifying citizens, immigrants, and aliens, both legal and illegal, which falls under laws concerning naturalizations (USCONS Art1 Sec 8 Para 4)."
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National ID is not at all meant to deal with naturalization. As was said, we've got the green card. Plus, since current citizens would have to get this ID as well, that supercedes any naturalization argument and becomes a generic 'ID' argument, which is not explicitly enumerated.
Thus it falls on Amendment 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respecti
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There is no new ID to get. Perhaps if you were to read you would understand that. It sets minimum standards for ID cards and minimum standards proving one's identity when getting an ID card.
"National ID is not at all meant to deal with naturalization."
It is called RealID and one of the functions of the standards is to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining ID, thus allowing law enforcement to better identify citizens, legal immigrants, and illegal aliens.
"since current
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No it wont it will make it easy for law enforcement to identify people without drivers licenses!
Re:Big deal. (Score:4, Informative)
Because they are intended for use with foreign entities. Passports are not a required form of ID to have in the US, only if you wish to travel outside the US.
License plates across the states are the same, and DON'T carry a different format such as european plates.
Again, no they are not!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_license _plates_in_the_United_States) "For example, the small states Delaware and Rhode Island are able to use formats of 123456 and 123-456, respectively, while California uses the seven-character format 1ABC234, and several other populous states use the seven-character ABC-1234 format." and "In some states, information such as county of registration or month of expiration is incorporated into the number. The last number on a Massachusetts license plates indicates the month the bearer's registration expires (1234 AB would expire in April, the fourth month; zero is used for October expirations"
As far as illegal immigrants go, they can still get ID's locally and not be tracked throughout the nation, only locally if THAT. They can also board planes after that point.
Right because our real problem with illegal immigrants is that they fly!
Pick apart everything I say because of your beliefs on fighting the man.
Has nothing to do with an innate distrust of authority but thanks for bringing your straw man to the chat, he might make for better conversation than you are.
Having a unified set of ID's, just like the military, is not a bad idea.
Never said it was a bad idea I said it was unconstitutional. We dont jsut do things because they are, at the time, a good idea. I also said granting power to those who in the future might abuse it is not a good idea either. That the kind of thinking that lets you elist in the military at 18 but not celebrate it with a drink until you're 21.
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We have one, its called a passport what the fed cant do is force ID on somebody its unconstitutional.
From the programming/database aspect alone all of us (especially on this site) should recognise the need for a better system.
We should also recognize the difficulty of providing security and privacy once all the data is in one place.
All of my information is currently stored in about 15 different state/federal databases already. What's wrong with put
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So you agree that the current system is broke? How would you fix it without a national database?
The current system is broke because its central! And having one database will not stop fraud it will only make it worse.
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Passports are the same throughout the states
Yes, because those are issued by who? The correct answer is: The Federal Government. States are not footing that bill, nor have they ever footed that bill.
license plates are the same
*BUZZ* Oh, sorry that answer is incorrect. Some states list counties on their plates, others require two plates, while some only one. Some states have specialty plates that others do not. The way the tags and registration are charged is different by state or municipality. About the only way they are similar is in the fact that the identify a state
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All that is required for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing.
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Civil liberties have never cost nearly as much lives as the lack thereof. Could, say, 9/11 have happened in the USSR? Probably not, but I don't think that would have been much comfort to the folks in the gulag.
Because of politics and PC thoughts
Oh, yes, damn those PC thoughts! Dumb politics like "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity
it's about politics and rules that were set back before the
Important question (Score:2)
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Passports are a federal document, not state. I would hope they were the same.
icense plates are the same..
No they're not. There are a minimum of 500 different license plates for the states. More than likely, double that number due to the specialty plates once can get. I know in PA there are fourteen different license plates one can get not including the generic one.
social security numbers are the same...
Again, that's a federal issue, not a
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Passports are not up to the states. States are not allowed to restrict travel.
License plates are up to the states, but the automotive industry makes the cars and they don't want to make 50 different types of license plates mounts.
Social security numbers are assigned by the federal government.
Immigrants are not the only ones who don't want to be followed by "the man". Any freedom-loving individual wants the same.