Texas Bill For Open Documents

Ditesh Kumar tips us to a blog entry by Sam Hiser noting a bill filed in Texas that would require state agencies to conduct their work in an open document format. After Microsoft's grueling battle against ODF in Massachusetts, bluest of blue states, it must be galling to face te same fight in the reddest of the red. Hiser notes that the bill includes a rigorous and sound definition of an open document format, which ODF would meet but Microsoft's current OOXML submission would not.

Reddest?

[greg_barton]

...it must be galling to face te same fight in the reddest of the red.

Obviously you've never been to Alabama.

Utah has 'Bama Pwned!

[BlackGriffen]

Utah: 71% Bush in 04
Alabama: 63% Bush

Re:

[evilviper]

Utah: 71% Bush in 04
Alabama: 63% Bush

To say that Utah is more "red" than Alabama based on votes, is to suggest that G.W. Bush is the ideal Republican candidate...

Re:

[JohnFluxx]

No, it's to suggest that Bush is a more republican candidate than the opposition

Re:

[evilviper]

That's nonsense. How about if the Republican candidate just happened to have been a mass murderer? Besides mass murder, ANY issue people disagree with, will have the same effect to a different extent. The people of Utah might just not have happen to like a law that Kerry voted for while he was a senator. Or maybe he said something offensive about Morons...

ANYTHING could have skewed the numbers.

Re:

[TheRaven64]

over half a million Iraqi dead on his conscience

On his what?

Re:

[Ucklak]

According to your logic, just about every president of the US as well as most heads of state would be considered a mass murderer.

If your country were to be invaded by Chinese with the intent of taking over, would you fight for your life, fight for your country, or just go into the camps and take a shower if asked/told to?

Re:

[cduffy]

Killing in self-defense, like killing in lawful, justified warfare is not murder, and defending from an invasion is clearly on one side of this boundary while the Iraq war is, at best, vastly more ambiguous.

Further, if an individual incites a war without good cause, that alone is reason to consider the dead from said war to be that individual's moral responsibility.

Re:

[Darby]

If your country were to be invaded by Chinese with the intent of taking over, would you fight for your life, fight for your country, or just go into the camps and take a shower if asked/told to?

I think you fail to understand that in your analogy *we're* the Chinese.

Correction

[BlackGriffen]

Tis to say that the Utahns will vote for the Republican no matter how un-ideal he is because Democrats are "Liberals" and "Liberals"=Evil.

How much more conservative can you get?

Re:

[evilviper]

Tis to say that the Utahns will vote for the Republican no matter how un-ideal he

To prove that is the case, you need a hell of a lot more evidence than the voting statistics for one single election.

As I said, if John Kerry just happened to have offended Mormons, that would easily account for the numbers, even if they were die-hard liberals to begin with (which they obviously are not).

Re:

[Darby]

To say that Utah is more "red" than Alabama based on votes, is to suggest that G.W. Bush is the ideal Republican candidate...

They have these things called "primaries" in which many people compete to be exactly that.
Bush won over many "real' republican candidates therefore demonstrating that he was the ideal Republican candidate.

I think you haven't clued into the fact that the Republican party underwent a major shift some time back. The day Reagan was elected was the day the final nail in the coffin of the o

Re:

[SydShamino]

Moreover, Texas is predicted to be a swing state within 10 years, due to demographics shifts from legal immigration.

(Legal immigration, obviously, since this is concerning voting.)

Re:Reddest?

[Rimbo]

Or Austin, for that matter.

Austin's about as red as the Santa Fe sky on a clear afternoon, or Australia's Coral Coast. Add to that a bunch of tech industry, a huge university and about 2000 miles between it and Redmond, and this is hardly surprising.

Austin's where I first heard about Linux... in January of 1992. Slackware was on sale in the University co-op a year or so later. And it's where I first used USENET, IRC and internet e-mail, way back in 1991.

Dallas, too, as of this year

[Mateo_LeFou]

Dallas county blue for the first time in decades, if I'm not mistaken http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2006/ [princeton.edu]

Re:

[Ryan Amos]

Texas is conservative, but it's more of a libertarian, small government kind of conservativism. Bush won by a large margin here because he used to be the governor and (this was probably more of it) east-cost snobs like Al Gore and John Kerry are despised here.

Hell frozen over?

[DaveM753]

I never thought I'd say something like this, but GO TEXAS!

Re:Hell frozen over?

[The_Wilschon]

Indeed Go Texas!

If you live in Texas, WRITE TO YOUR LEGISLATORS ! You can find out who to write to at the Texas Legislature Online's "Who Represents Me?" [state.tx.us] page. In my case, there were direct links to my Texas State Senator's and Texas State Representative's webpages, and I used the "email me!" type links I found there. If you don't want to take the time to write something yourself, you are welcome to use the same short letter I wrote:

I recently learned that a bill (SB 446) had been introduced to the Texas Legislature which would require all electronic state documents to be stored in a format described by an open standard. I am writing to lend my overwhelming support to this bill, and to express my hope that, if given the opportunity, you will vote in favor of this measure.

Open standards for documents ensure a number of things. First, the records of our great state will be preserved in a form accessible to posterity. You have no doubt heard the aphorism "Those who do not learn their history are doomed to repeat it," and how can our descendants learn our history if it is locked away in a format that can no longer be supported. It would be as if we had recorded all our state documents on 8-track tapes. Second, those who cannot afford the more expensive platforms and applications required for closed format documents would no longer be restricted from participating in the government (of the people, by the people, for the people) of the State of Texas.

Please, ensure that both the present and the future of our state can participate and learn from our government, and support this measure to require open formats for all state documents.

My draft

[Mateo_LeFou]

I am writing to ask that you will vote in favor of bill (SB 446), introduced by Juan "Chuy" Hinojosa, which would require all electronic state documents to be stored in a format described by an open standard

As an IT professional, document formats play an important role in my work (and, consequently, my contribution to the Texas economy). Open standards and open formats ensure that critical information will always be available to citizens, but they also make it possible for government operations to be more

Re:

[sumdumass]

That story along with the study is a little misleading. If you look past the sensationalism and to the meat of it, you will quickly find that the intercultural Development Research Association is only concerned with students who recieve a diploma in public schools and compare that to enrolment from a previous set of years back to 8th or 9th grade. On the surface, this looks sound but it doesn't count the students who leave the state and finish school somewhere else nor does it count the student who leave th

ODF and statewide dropout rate ..

[rs232]

Wha' ??? ..

"That story along with the study is a little misleading. If you look past the sensationalism and to the meat of it, you will quickly find that the intercultural Development Research Association is only concerned with students"

What has a Bill requiring state agencies conduct its work in an open document format got to do with school dropout rates. How would using an ODF format influence drop out rates. Would it go up or down.

'A BILL TO BE ENTITLED AN ACT relating to an open document forma

reading comprehension for the win?

[BitterAndDrunk]

sumdumass was replying specifically to the link the parent to his post referenced. It was somewhat tangential to the original article but was easy to follow the thread.

ODF and statewide dropout rate ..

[rs232]

"sumdumass was replying specifically to the link the parent to his post referenced"

Yea, sumdumass replied and agreed with the linked to post and my point still applies. What do ODF and dropout rates have in common.

was Re:reading comprehension for the win?

Re:

[sumdumass]

It is simple, the GP said it doesn't matter what format the government uses if the people can't read them still. They then pointed to the dropout rate as presented from a misleading story presented to them. I looked at the story and knowing about the home schooling issues along with the military bases in the area and wondered if that had anything to do with the number. So yes, after some simple research, it apears it does.

I then quickly offered the rest of the story as best as i could gather it to show the

Check the author

[ZPWeeks]

It may be Texas, but the bill was filed by Rubén Hinojosa, a Democrat representative from the U.S. House. They'll shoot it down. (unless Cheney misses and hits MS OOXML by accident.)

Go figure

[ChromeAeonium]

It may be Texas, but the bill was filed by Rubén Hinojosa, a Democrat representative from the U.S. House. They'll shoot it down.
...and that's why George Washington said to stay far away from political parties. I love how well America listened.

Re:Check the author

[pallmall1]

They'll shoot it down.

You're probably right. A $500 Million Microsoft datacenter [lockergnome.com] in San Antonio, Texas probably also means Microsoft's OOXML for Texas documents. Ballmer aims his furniture better than Chaney aims his shotgun. :)

Re:Check the author

[yo_tuco]

"Texas probably also means Microsoft's OOXML for Texas documents.

Some years ago Microsoft threated the city of Huston [usatoday.com] to sign up for a multiyear, $12 million software licensing plan or face an audit exposing the city's use of software it hadn't paid for.

But as it turned out, Huston had more than enough proof of purchase seals. And then they voted to dump Microsoft Office in favor of SimDesk because of Microsoft's gestapo tactics. I don't know if that's still true today and I doubt SimDesk supports OOXML. So not all parts of Texas are friends of Microsoft.

Check Again......

[cary67]

The author made a mistake, which has been corrected. The bill was submitted by Juan Hinojosa, State Senator from District 20

Re:

[sconeu]

Besides, it's the Texas Legislature. There ain't nothin' that a briefcase stuffed with $100 bills won't cure.

Let's get the ball rolling!

[mrchaotica]

With Massachusetts, bunches of foreign governments, and now Texas realizing the importance of document formats that are Free, future proof, and equally accessible to all citizens (including those who don't use Windows), I think it's about time the other forty-eight states introduced similar bills of their own. I just wrote an email suggesting such to my representative; now it's your turn!

Re:

[mrchaotica]

Wow, that's great -- that bill has exactly (almost word-for-word) the same four requirements as the Texas one! You should submit that as a story -- if the Texas one made the front page, this should too.

Re:

[ChunderDownunder]

But using what application is the content created and edited? Please don't say MS Office - the source format is still proprietary.

PDF is primarily an output format. Which is fine for printing out documents in the 22nd century if A4 paper still exists.

However, you'll struggle to find an office suite that uses PDF as its native file format.

If the content were ever to be re-used or edited without the application that originally created it, ODF stands a better chance, with OpenOffice and KOffice using the forma

I'm a Texan! Who do I write to?

[erroneus]

I happen to work for a company that builds schools. This change would affect my work to some degree as well. I just want to know who I can write to in order to support the move. It would also be helpful if someone more clever than myself wrote up a letter from which I can extact key points and write my own. (If hundreds of people wrote the same letter, I think it wouldn't be as meaningful somehow.)

In any case, I'm ready to start my letter-writing campaign in support of this move.

Re:I'm a Texan! Who do I write to?

[mrchaotica]

Well, I'm not a Texan, but since it's a bill in the Texas state Senate, I figure you probably ought to contact your state Senator.

Also, since it's going to have to get out of committee before anyone else sees it (unless your state government is unusual), you could contact the other Senators who make up whichever committee it goes into -- which, based on a 10-second scan of the list of committees, I'm guessing is this one [state.tx.us]. But I could be wrong.

Re:

[danWeasel]

You could write to Rick Perry and ask him to executive order it into policy. (Except where religious or personal reasons prevent.)

"Red" and "blue" is irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

This just goes to show that Free Software is not a democrat or republicrat thing. (Remember, Microsoft itself is in one of the 'bluer' states.)

The real issue here is freedom, and the benefits that can be derived from it: Better security, lower upfront costs, less obsolescence, open formats, and the ability to choose between software packages and providers, rather than just taking whatever Microsoft shoves down your throat.

the colors got swapped and the stands changed

[r00t]

Prior to the last few elections, red was always used for the democrats. At the time the republicans favored freedom more and the democrats were all about big government, so the association of the democrats with the reds (communists) was fitting.

Re:

[MoxFulder]

Prior to the last few elections, red was always used for the democrats. At the time the republicans favored freedom more and the democrats were all about big government, so the association of the democrats with the reds (communists) was fitting.

No, this is not true. The colors used to draw political divide on maps are not meant to symbolize the political leanings of the parties in any way. They were chosen arbitrarily by TV networks, and there was no agreed-on color scheme prior to the year 2000... that'

Re:

[r00t]

Your wikipedia link supports me rather well. Perhaps you should read it again, to the very end.

CBS was backwards, ABC couldn't decide and liked yellow... but other than that it was pretty much red for the democrats and blue for the republicans. This goes back to 1888. It is followed for similar conservative/libral divisions in numerous other countries.

There is something here...

[bogaboga]

To me, this is one of the very good pieces of news this year. As the introduction mentions Massachusetts is one of the bluest of blue states and Texas is on the "other" side.

Question: How will each of these states' approach to this `open formats' "problem" be similar and how will it be different if one dares to compare and of course speculate?

State-sponsored OSS in Texas is reality already

[pongo000]

Unfortunately, it's in the form of a recommendation [state.tx.us], but it's better than nothing. In a nutshell, it directs Texas state agencies and higher education institutions to consider OSS for all IT procurements. I believe it was originally the brainchild of a Dallas-area senator named John Corona.

I referenced it quite often while pushing for OSS-based IT implementation at the college I was teaching at...most administrators were ignorant that this even existed.

Re:

[GaryOlson]

The Texas higher education institutions already make heavy use of OSS. Our budgets don't allow us to afford anything else....except, of course, for UT Austin who can walk across the street to wine, dine, and whine the Texas Legislature.

Re:

[pongo000]

Actually, it's been my experience that many are still in the dark ages when it comes to OSS. Imagine one of the 5 largest community college districts in the country still pushing proprietary (and patented!) online education at the tune of millions of dollars a year in taxpayer money. Four-years are no different (ever try to find a LyX layout/LaTeX class for a disseration? La-what?)

I've presented at several regional (Texas) conferences on various aspects of OSS in higher ed, and have talked to many, many

Reddest of the red?

[hansamurai]

What's Slashdot going to do now that it has used the reddest of the red and the bluest of the blue for states? Northest of the north? Bestest of the best? Openest of the open?

Redundanced of the redundant

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Mod -1

Re:

[ZiZ]

Yessest of the yes, Iest of the I agreest of the agree. Thisest of the this isest of the is aest of the a problemest of the problem.

OOXML and ISO approval

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi folks,

Microsoft went for ISO fast-track approval which allows only one month for dissenting countries to speak out (and with 6000 pages in the spec it's not enough time -- there hasn't been any public standardisation prior to this fast track as is normal with fast-tracked standards).

Anyway, as I understand it there only needs to be one single vote against in order to force a fast-tracked proposal down the long and arduous path of open evaluation, analysis, and justification. Canada and Britain have voted against Microsoft. Thanks Canada, thanks Britain!

OOXML is now considerably more shakey with governments around the world, and other countries, like Texas.

-- Matt Carter

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

... and a lot of other countries too (several out of the 19 who responded). Seems like a new record! See http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/articl e.php?story=20070206145620473 [consortiuminfo.org]

Re:

[nbritton]

"Microsoft went for ISO fast-track approval which allows only one month for dissenting countries to speak out (and with 6000 pages in the spec it's not enough time -- there hasn't been any public standardization prior to this fast track as is normal with fast-tracked standards)."

That's nice Microsoft but we already have a published ISO standard (ISO/IEC 26300:2006) for "XML schema for office applications and its semantics". One standard is enough, thanks but no thanks. If you want you may propose revisi

Re:

[swillden]

Texas is not a country, not matter how much Texans would like to think it is.

I can see you've never been there.

Hi, y'all

[Texas Bill]

Ah'd like to make it clear as the wide blue sky that Ah am indeed for open documents. We've got to stop those Mahcruhsowft bush-whackers afore they've done rustled off all ahr fahn computers. Wah, Ah'd even make common cause with them damyankees from Barstn. Any foe of Redmond Bill is durn tootin' a friend of mine!

Thank y'all fer yer time.

Re:

[mfrank]

That went over his head, I'm sure . . .

I'm not surprised

[cryfreedomlove]

Texas is a conservative state and conservative values call for open and unfettered competition. This is what I expected would happen.

Re:

[Harmonious Botch]

It's just a coincidence. In Texas, competion is done with guns.

Re:

[kisak]

conservative values call for open and unfettered competition

Republicans [iht.com] are [federaltimes.com] not [washingtonpost.com] conservative [cbsnews.com] then [usatoday.com].

Austin != Strongly Red

[Hadlock]

Keep in mind Dell, which has been noted recently for the N-Series computers, is also located near Austin. The concept that the incredibly liberal capital Austin introducing progressive bills isn't terribly suprising. If this had been a city council proposition in a small town an hour outside of San Antonio or Tyler, this would be news.

Re:

[JoshJ]

Except that if it was a smaller city it wouldn't be nearly as relevant. Your point is valid, though.

Re:

[Hadlock]

TI is based out of Dallas. Samsung is... Korean? I believe.

ODF Converter...

[friedmud]

I hope Microsoft's newly released ODF converter doesn't mess with Texas's plans... a partly-free solution just doesn't cut it in my eyes.

For me, this is all about the future. Locking up government documents in proprietary formats is a disaster for future generations. We should ideally be scratching them out on cave walls...

Friedmud

In Soviet Texas...

[gsn]

Documents open you!

Yeehah!

Red State?

[cary67]

I'm not sure why being a so-called "red state" means that it's people or government agencies are supporters of MS. What does that have to do with anything? Spare me the drivel about the Bush administration caving on the MS anti-trust case. Maybe they did. Maybe I agree. However, the sweeping generalization made by the original poster is simply unsupported. Instead, I would point you to the fact that you're talking about the people who brought you the Boston Tea Party and The Alamo here. It's no surprise. These are Americans standing up against 21st century tyranny. Government users are BIG business for MS and YOUR tax dollars are paying for it. Texans, voice your support for this bill today!

Re:

[illumin8]

I'm not sure why being a so-called "red state" means that it's people or government agencies are supporters of MS.

It doesn't, but in general, Republicans fall on the side of big business much more often than they fall on the side of the consumer, therefore a red state is probably less likely to be anti-MS. There are exceptions to this rule: Utah and Massachusetts, but Utah has Novell as a constituent and Massachusetts has Mitt Romney, who came from Utah and knows full well how MS destroyed Novell and Word

Re:

[Darby]

I'm not sure why being a so-called "red state" means that it's people or government agencies are supporters of MS.

Becasue "Red state" means "Republican". The Republicans are an extreme right wing party.
Rigth wing means that they support using the power of the state against the individual for the benefit of the wealthy elite.
Back in the day that was the
Nobility and Church against the people. Today it is corporate power.
MS is a big corporate power who likes using the government against the citizens. Therefor

Re:

[Darby]

to take money from people by force is not a right.

Wow, so Republicans aren't sepnding far more of my money than the even Dems ever dreamed of?

To have the government take money from people by force to give them to you is not a right.

Corporate welfare.

To kill another human being, even if it is your own child, is not a right.

Death penalty, Made up war in Iraq.

To take peoples money and use them to brainwash their kids is not a right.

Faith based initiatives.

Nice try, Sparky, but your ignorance is now clear to

Re:

[cary67]

The Republican Party (note: not just Bush) currently favors the interests of large corporations. Texas is controlled by Republicans. Microsoft is a large corporation. Therefore, Texas supports MS. Maybe it's not that cut-and-dried, but that's the logical train of thought that would cause people to reasonably assume such.

Yes, and Democrats support trial lawyers and labor unions (note: not necessarily regular people) so.... ---insert random logical assumption here.---

The fact that a "blue" state was the first to rebel against MS would seem to undermine your statement. Indeed, assumptions are rarely reasonable or logical.

People are being poisoned by the Red/Blue nonsense. It's hogwash that is intended to divide us and perpetuate a corrupt two-party system. Reality is not always what TV says it is. California is "blu

Re:

[killjoe]

Unions represent regular people. You know, cops, firemen, teachers, truck drivers, plumbers, electricians, doctors, lawyers etc.

Yes the doctors and lawyers have their unions too but they choose to call them associations.

I know the republicans hate people who are in unions but that's only because they tend to ask for more money from their bosses and insist on decent treatment. The chamber of commerce hates that shit.

Re:

[killjoe]

"Funny that you don't mention people who work in offices, IT pros, programmers, etc. who are, by and large, unorganized."

That's their choice. I think they are foolish but that's just me. The unions, the AMA and the bar association is writing legislation and getting it passed while the IT folk rant and rave on slashdot. If you want power you have to organize.

"You might see the end of offshoring of IT jobs. You might also see clerical workers banding together to demand $35 an hour and lifetime health benefit

Blue? Red?

[Brandybuck]

Open formats (as well as Free Software, etc.) have nothing whatsoever to do with red or blue states, liberals or conservatives, Republicans or Democrats. Stop trying to make this an us-vs-them issue.

p.s. Besides, Utah is much redder than Texas.

Re:

[gordo3000]

well, after the republican showing in the net neutrality bills in front of congress its surprising they would take a stand in the realm of technology that could help the people and promote freedom.

Re:

[Brandybuck]

Outside of tech forums, NO ONE knows what net neutrality really means. There has been NO debate on the issue, only snarky remarks from both sides. Thus it's irrelevant whether one side or the other is for or against it. It's like saying Democrats are raving war hawks just because they all voted for the Iraq invasion.

Re:

[gordo3000]

no, what I mean to imply, though obviously not well (after reading my own words) was this correlation:

Net Neutrality becomes issue
Republicans get solicited by ISP's and other business's that it is a bad thing
Without even attempting to get a clue form a 3rd party source, blindly follow what the pro's in the business say.

So I would be surprised that the republicans would actually take a stand in favor of the consumer. It can mean one of two things:

A republican with a clue actually made his own decision befor

face te facts

[1u3hr]

From the summary: face te same fight. How hard is it to spellcheck?

Texas is heavy on computers

[bahwi]

Say what you will about the political climate here(very red) but a lot of stuff is online and sped up by computers. Last year when I incorporated I used the online website, paid the $300 fee with my debit card, and the paperwork was done and I was sent everything with the seal and all the appropriate numbers within two hours via e-mail in PDF format, completely official and everything. Paying corp taxes couldn't be easier(few that there be), ditto with unemployment. If I have to do anything that affects my corp, pretty much everything is online and an option to be filed. And it's all done by the state.

Getting my federal EIN meant going through a third party company, paying a fee(only $20, so I figured might as well instead of waiting for the feds to get it to me in a few weeks by doing it on paper). It works really well. I renew my drivers license online(every other renewal only, gotta get new pics at some point) and my vehicle registration is always done online. In terms of computing it's a very progressive state. Much of it is very basic HTML so it works in whatever browser you use it with.

Idiotic left-right dichotomy

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

After Microsoft's grueling battle against ODF in Massachusetts, bluest of blue states, it must be galling to face te same fight in the reddest of the red.

Here's a thought: Maybe it's possible that not every issue can be polarized along the lines of "left-wing moonbats" and "right-wing rednecks".

You people are idiots.

Blue vs Red

[init100]

I really don't get the US party colours. In the cold war, the Soviets were the red and the allies (NATO) were the blue. In the US, the left on the political scale (Democrats) are blue, while the right (Conservatives) are red.

In Sweden, where I live, the conservatives are blue, the liberals are light blue, the social democrats are red and the left party is a little bit darker red.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

You are quite the fool to believe that OpenXML is as documented and implementable as ODF. MS believes that documenting a function as "Should work like Word-97 spacing bug" as sufficient.

That is not a standard, that is just a list of all the bugs in the MS code, which no one should really try to emulate.

Re:Why not OpenXML?

[mrchaotica]

The author is pretty dismissive about OpenXML, yet doesn't explain why OpenXML wouldn't meet the criteria.

Okay, then I will instead:

OpenXML doesn't meet the criteria because parts of it are patented. Besides, even if it weren't patented parts of the "standard" essentially say "re-implement the behavior of Word" which, for obvious reasons, is entirely unreasonable and should also disqualify it.

By then OpenXML will probably be an ISO standard...

If this post [slashdot.org] above yours is accurate, no it won't.

"published without restrictions or royalties": OpenXML already fulfills this today

No, you're wrong. Patents qualify as restrictions.

MS doesn't seem too concerned

[I'm Don Giovanni]

Brian Jones, head of Microsoft's OOXML effort, seems to have no problem with Texas' bill.
http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/default.aspx [msdn.com]

Re:

[killjoe]

Covenants not sue are not contracts. They could change their mind at any time. See SCO.

They could also get somebody else to do the suing again see SCO.

Finally people who have trusted MS and taken them at their word have usually gotten screwed with a can of crunchy peanut butter see dozens of companies now out of business.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

"Microsoft's covenant not to sue means that you can use all of those patents freely in any way without any restrictions and it also means that no other company can go ahead, patent the same stuff and make you pay for it. What do you want more?"

Microsoft's covenant not to sue applies to the OOXML specification, in and of itself.

There is no such covenant from Microsoft for Microsoft-proprietary components that teh OOXML specification invokes: such as WMF format for graphics, or ActiveX, or Visual Basic, and s

Re:

[iabervon]

Chances are that OpenXML will get shot down in the ISO process. It's not going fast-track thanks to Britain, and the slow track process goes through the same committee that's just done ODF, and ODF is better in every way than OpenXML. Everybody on the committee except for the Microsoft representative is going to be looking for anything that they should send over to OASIS for ODF 1.2, not looking to approve a conflicting standard with no different useful design goals.

Of course, it would probably be wise for

Re:

[init100]

It's not going fast-track thanks to Britain

That's news to me. Care to provide a link?

Re:

[daeg]

Have you actually read any of the OOXML "specs"?

Ecma 376 section 2.8.2.16 (page 1541) "sig (Supported Unicode Subranges and Code Pages)" describes the <w:sig> element whose attributes are all bitmasks. For example, take the attribute csb1:

"Specifies a four digit hexadecimal encoding of the upper 32 bits of the 64-bit code-page bit field that identifies which specific character sets or code pages are supported by the parent font"

Also, do you want attributes in your "open" format to be "useWord2002Tabl

Re:Why not OpenXML?

[ozmanjusri]

By then OpenXML will probably be an ISO standard

No, probably not. Microsoft's attempt at a swift flanking move on our stampede to format freedom has (temporarily) been blocked http://www.computing.co.uk/itweek/news/2173717/ope n-standards-bodies-call-halt [computing.co.uk].

"published without restrictions or royalties": OpenXML already fulfills this today

Good point. Today yes, OpenXML meets that criteria, but tomorrow may be a different story.

"fully and independently implemented by multiple software providers on multiple platforms without any intellectual property reservations for necessary technology": Once Novell did it for OpenXML, there will be three vendors (Novell, Microsoft and the open-source project doing the ODF-OpenXML converter) on multiple platforms (Windows & all platforms OpenOffice runs on). Sounds like OpenXML has this one in the pocket as well.

Novell is in Microsoft's pocket, and Microsoft is funding the ODF-OpenXML converter. Besides, you forgot to allow for the "without any intellectual property reservations for necessary technology" part, which is not guaranteed with OpenXML.

But for all skeptics, once OpenXML is an ISO standard in 6 months or so, this will be a given.

We'd better wait until then before adopting it then. Mean time, ODF does all of the above, but without any of the "gotchas".

By the way, congratulations on writing a post which very cleverly skirts all the questionable bits of Microsoft's OpenXML push without actually lying. Care to disclose who you work for?

Re:

[killjoe]

Probably because MS did and does pay people to post favorible comments about them here and elsewhere (including wikipeadia).

Besides who would shill for a corporation without getting paid? You don't see me posting about how great mazdas are at a forum about BMWs do you?

Re:

[killjoe]

Linux is for nerds, windows is for your grandma. That's what the shills say anyway.

Anyway linux is not a corporation. Open source is a community and that's vastly different then a corporations.

Re:

[wall0159]

"MS isn't the only company that uses Anti-Competitive methods or tries to lock users into their product. ipods anyone?"

there's a big difference between DRM that's specific to a device (that's right - tracks from the ITMS are the _only_ lock-in to the ipod, which also plays mp3 and AAC - open formats), and software that results in lock-in on content that you create yourself.

I'm no fan of DRM or the ITMS, but the lock-in to the ipod is no worse than that of any other music player!

Re:

[BootNinja]

I wouldn't exactly call MP3 an open format, as it is patented and requires a royalty for legal use, but that's just picking nits. I otherwise agree with your statements.

Re:

[ajs318]

Not in all countries. MP3 encoding and decoding, being pure mathematical operations, are beyond the scope of patentability in at least the EU and the UK.

Re:

[gordo3000]

depends, I've never had a problem opening MS office documents. in school I could get it for "free" and open office reads the file format just fine. so actually, unless something changes with MS's format, its a worse lock in than ITMS DRM(because I have a variety of "players" to access it, rather than having to bootstrap something together..)

now, before 2 years ago, I don't think open office could handle MS office documents correctly, but lately I haven't had any problems at all....

Re:Makes Sense

[sumdumass]

When the government start using Ipod only files to distribute and interact with documents I need in order to do business in the state, I'll start bitching a bit louder about the Ipod. But I shouldn't need to purchase a $400 program to interact with a state on a fundemental level. I shouldn't have to do this to do business in the state either, even if the business is with others in the state and we just need to get permit aprovals and such.

And I know, there are alternative ways to interact. But the end result would be either pony up the dough or suffer an unfair competitive advantage to your competitors because of the states decision that is funded by my tax dollars.

And the refusial to pay, isn't even a decision over the money needed, it is about principle. Sooner or later we will have enough little $400 for this program, 200 for that program and so on. Before long, a person will have to have thoughsands of dollars just for programs to do business. And it might not stop at doing business, what about complaints and such. Shoudl a person need to pay a microsoft tax to fill out a complaint form or ask the state/city to fix something they should have already fixed? I know, I'm rambling. Your point is still valid but i see it in different levels. Hopfully other can too.

Re:

[gordo3000]

what kind of interaction do you have with the government? There are a ton of programs that interact cleanly with office documents(definitely to the extent that you can extract all the information you need to run your business at no hassle). Are you revising government documents that require you to beable to share changes and updates on the documents? at that point, its a question of which software best provides for said interaction. If you are willing to merely highlight and modify the document and then

Re:

[sumdumass]

what kind of interaction do you have with the government? There are a ton of programs that interact cleanly with office documents(definitely to the extent that you can extract all the information you need to run your business at no hassle).

My first interaction came with opening a computer repair shop. The zoning requires you to submit a floor plan of the building with areas marked for customer areas, storage areas and so one. You also needed to mark the entire property the building sets on including any o

Re:

[sumdumass]

Am I missing the point?

I think you are missing the point. Now becuse of any shortsightedness but because you just havn't been exposed to it in real life yet.

De facto standards become de facto because most people use them.

If i use a file standar because my government reqire me ton use them, then eventualy everyone will be using them making it the De facto standards. The difference is whether they are that way because everyone wants to ue them or because they are forced to us them.

f it's historical pe

Once again iPod != Monopoly

[SmallFurryCreature]

You can go into any electronics store (well, okay, apple store excluded) and buy plenty of non-iPod mp3 players. For that matter, the iPod works PERFECTLY fine with just mp3's loaded. The iPod in noway forces you to use "iTunes the store" (its use of iTunes the software is another story for wich Jobs will no doubt be shot when the revolution comes but that is just my personal bitter hatred of the piece of crap).

No go into a electronics store and try to get a computer without windows. Not even a computer wi

Re:

[mackyrae]

At the Congressional Internet Caucus last week there was a group from tux.org (affiliation of LUGs) with a table demonstrating how thanks to open standards like for the web, Linux, Mac, and Windows computers can all communicate just fine. They were there to push for open standards. I hung out with them for a lot of it (though the digitalfreedom.org people were cool too), and there were a lot of people from the Senate asking about why open standards are important (though it WAS in the Hart Building). Ther

Re:

[Jesus_666]

Microsoft isn't exactly making friends everywhere. The EU is pissed off about how they conduct themselves with regard to the API documentation issue. This demonstration of what happens when you give a corporation too much power surely doesn't improve Microsoft's position in the battle for the next standard document format.

Also, city governments are eyeing F/OSS because it's cheaper than even free licenses from Microsoft, which still come with strings like possible audits attached, and considering the budg

Re:What do legislators really want?

[MoxFulder]

Microsoft had a rethink of the strategy they were using, dropped the prices for the government, threw in some more support for servers and all sorts of other things and all of a sudden, the government has a change of mind and also givs MS some tax breaks.. go figure.

You (and others) often use this as evidence that open source initiatives don't really work. In my mind, that's not really clear. I mean, in your example, competition from open source has in fact forced Microsoft to reduce prices, improve support, and maybe provide better docs. Of course you and I would prefer Microsoft get dumped all at once, but I believe that progress has being made. The fact that government initiatives in favor of open source have forced Microsoft to negotiate better deals DEMONSTRATES that open source has influence and strength.

Re:

[MoxFulder]

Very well said! I suppose that in my more rational moments I too just want Microsoft to compete on a level playing field. Though when they're doing stuff like strong-arming OOXML through standards bodies and adding DRM everywhere, I sometimes wish they'd just go away. :-)