Congressmen Condemn Companies for China Policies 243
koweja writes "Members of Congress have taken the step of criticizing various IT companies for their international policies. This includes Google and Microsoft, for what they call 'bowing to Beijing' and 'putting profits before American principles of free speech'. Most of the specific incidents have been covered on Slashdot already. Yahoo and MS countered by pointing out that event censored network access 'enabled far wider access to independent sources of information for hundreds of millions of individuals in China and elsewhere' than not entering China."
International Law (Score:2, Interesting)
Likewise, as Eastern Europeans were forced to sing The International under the Bolsheviks on pain of death; our capitalist institutions seem hell-bent on destroying the last vestiges of provincial (domestic) accountability.
It's bizarre how, at their limits, capitalism approaches Bolshev
Re:International Law (Score:2, Informative)
Re:International Law (Score:2, Informative)
_When Corporations Rule the World_
_The Best Democracy Money Can Buy_
Re:International Law (Score:2, Interesting)
People tend to see "left" and "right" wing politics existing as alternate ends of a spectrum, getting more and more unlike each other as you travel in either direction. I think, though, that politics tends more towards a circular representation, with "center" parties being very alike, differing on relatively few issues, then party's politics diverging as one move's further in either direction, so that center-right and center-left were rough
Re:International Law (Score:3, Informative)
More American: Capitalism or Democracy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously, there is a conflict of interest between these two ideals. On one hand, it's very American to be a capitalist. After all, what is the American dream? On the other hand, it's very American to cherish the freedoms that we are privileged to have. But is it American to push the ideals of Democracy on the rest of the world? Some people would say that it most certainly is, some people would wager to leave well enough alone.
Depending on how you want to look at it, Google and Microsoft are more American than Thomas Jefferson.
Because of the Cold War in the 80's, the worst thing you could call an American was a Communist. But Communism is only talking about the market--Socialism is how the government is run. So what do we value more as Americans, our market system or government? If you claim them to be inseparable, you're greatly mistaken.
And now, Google and Microsoft are trying to bring out beloved capitalism to China. But they aren't also enforcing Democracy in their wheeling and dealing. Is this so wrong? Probably not if you believe every country has a right to govern itself as it so chooses. To quote Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill K.G.: So I encourage you to think twice before faulting Microsoft and Google for their entrance into China. One of the most revered and holy things the American people have is a free and open market system. Granted it's not perfect, we still value it to a great extent. With our corporations extending into China, perhaps they will change to full blown Capitalism also. This is also capital exported from China to America which benefits our economy in some small way.
So remember, we elect our congressmen to represent us , not the people of China. I'd like to see them show more concern for the ebbing of Democracy in our own damn country before they start working on forcing the Chinese to accept our form of government. Perfect the system we have here and, as in the case of East and West Berlin, the people will vote with their feet.
Hypocricy (Score:2, Interesting)
Did they condemn companies for continuing to do business with a mysogynistic France which denies an education to Muslim women who choose to follow their religion?
Is it freedome of speech for all (including the whackos) or freedom of speech only for those opposed to countries that we fear?
Is it freedom of religion for all or freedom of religion only for members of acceptable belief within the Southern Baptist Convention?
Re:Hypocricy (Score:2, Insightful)
Has the U.S. officially recognized Taiwan as an independent country?
Has the U.S. officially recognized Tibet as an illegally occupied country?
Bitching about what Google or MSN are doing while sitting on those two questions... well, I'm inclined to ignore the bluster of our elected pompous asses.
Kierthos
Re:Hypocricy (Score:2)
Maybe there's a gray area surrounding Tibet (The section on status) [wikipedia.org] because tibet has not been a recognized independent nation for hundreds of years and even during their period of self governance the repeatedly sent representitves to the China's government to help draft laws which might give one the impression that they treated themselves as a self ruled portion of a larger empire. At worst they are a colony, and if America rea
Palestine (Score:3)
Has the U.S. officially recognized Tibet as an illegally occupied country?
Has the U.S. officially recognized that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territory, which would include east Jerusalem?
Oh wait, Hamas was democratically chosen to lead the Palestinians? Fuck em!
Re:More American: Capitalism or Democracy? (Score:4, Insightful)
With the amount of attacks against the free market in the form of intellectual monopoly 'property', that freedom of the market doesnt appear to be very revered or holy.
In fact, a whole lot of the bigger players appear to be perfectly happy with state protected monopolies, as long as they get to own the monopolies.
"I'd like to see them show more concern for the ebbing of Democracy in our own damn country"
Sometimes it gets hard to see who's taking after whom. Unfortunately, instead of getting the best of all systems, it appears some are tempted to cherrypick the worst parts and putting them together.
Copyright != "monopoly" (Score:3, Insightful)
For whatever reason, some Slashdotters seem to believe that "free market" means "no regulation at all."
Events like the 1929 crash, Enron, and others have shown that capitalism can fail without a referree. In the case of Enron, the company had an agreement with the shareholders: you buy our shares, we give you dividends, voting power, an
What is more Chinese (Score:2)
I have seen so many articles here on China since I moved and have really been torm most times as to what I could uniquely add. Sometimes my silence was all I could add as I have been blocked from a couple articles/discussions - but not the front page.
From what I have experienced the censorship is annoying. And that is it. Any information you _really_ need are out there and anyone who wants to find something given enough time in a haystack will. There have been a few stories that I have seen that at first se
Re:More American: Capitalism or Democracy? (Score:2)
Do you-we mean by capitalism that profit maximization needs to be preserved and everything else is secondary ? If it is so you-we need to be clear about that, and the parent post makes perfect sense. But then it follows by using this definition that capitalism alone is a system that cannot survive long.
In fact, even in the most capitalistic systems a corporation can't break the laws, so there ARE cons
Re:More American: Capitalism or Democracy? (Score:2, Informative)
Interestingly Wired is reporting 'Bush Keeps Privacy Posts Vacant [wired.com].'
From the article:
"The powerful Office of the Director of National Intelligence, created by the Intelligence Reform Act, must have a civil liberties protection officer who is charged with e
THE US WAS THE FIRST COUNTRY TO CENSOR GOOGLE!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
China is a totalitarian state where
Re:THE US WAS THE FIRST COUNTRY TO CENSOR GOOGLE!! (Score:2)
Mod parent insightful but troll.
No More Golden Eggs?? (Score:2)
But it is okay to gut the American economy by taking manufacturing and technology jobs, and exporting them overseas?
But this position is criticised as protectionism. Sure, in a world with a limitation of certain resources, let everyone come in and kill the goos
Same jackasses that smashed Toshiba laptops... (Score:5, Insightful)
Generally, when Congressmen resort to theatrics, its a sure sign the actually plan to do nothing.
Re:Same jackasses that smashed Toshiba laptops... (Score:2)
Until they propose legislation, all the grandstanding is really meaningless. Of course, the legislation would probably also be meaningless, since it would allow the corporations to do the same things with a token payment to the commerce department.
What? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is *literally* saying "Slavery is Freedom"
Re:What? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't understand why Americans don't seem to grasp the concept of a middle ground. Sometimes, something in the middle can be better than any extreme view. In the case of search engines in China, the common American perspective seems to be that we have only two extreme choices. Google is EVIL for allowing any censorship and therefore must either pull out of the market entirely or must force the Chinese government to allow them to operate uncensored. Ignori
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? A Corporation, that's what. (Score:2)
Google et al
Re:What? A Corporation, that's what. (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:3, Insightful)
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
If they were literally saying "Slavery is Freedom" they would have said "Slavery is Freedom."
Re:What? (Score:2, Offtopic)
3. Usage Problem. Really; actually: "There are people in the world who literally do not know how to boil water" Used as an intensive before a figurative expression.
Usage Note: For more than a hundred years, critics have remarked on the incoherency of using literally in a way that suggests the exact opposite of its primary sense of "in a manner that accords with the literal sense of the words." In 1926, for example, H.W. Fowler cited the example "The 300,
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Why is it so hard for people to understand the proper usage of the word "literally?" For example, in this case, your usage is incorrect. The article was not "literally" saying "Slavery is Freedom." If it had, then you could have copied-and-pasted a direct quote from the article containing the words "Slavery is freedom."
Figuratively != Literally
"I was moving the refrigerator and I literally broke my back." This means the guy is not exaggerating about how hea
Re:What? (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Yea! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yea! (Score:2)
Re:Yea! (Score:3, Insightful)
Legal requirement (Score:5, Interesting)
From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation [wikipedia.org]:
Wait! (Score:2)
Re:Wait! (Score:2)
*Loud Laugh* (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:*Loud Laugh* (Score:2)
What country in the world would you say has a better record on civil rights? Or instead of a record, a better existing civil rights situation currently?
Re:*Loud Laugh* (Score:5, Insightful)
Slavery?
Institutionalized anti-black apartheid until the 1960's?
Rampant unofficial (private) racism (property sales contract that say "you can't sell your house to niggers") and property values that go down because "some niggers moved in the neighb ourhood"?
Guantanamo bay?
A president that goes ballistic to change the Constitution to prohibit gay marriage?
The most powerful superpower in the world discriminating against latino people because "they don't want to take our culture" - imagine that: a superpower that is scared shitless by some of the poorest people in the world!!!
Belgium? The Nederlands? Canada?Re:*Loud Laugh* (Score:2)
Cough Guantanamo cough captial punishment cough illegal detentions cough wiretapping cough torture cough cough...
Re:*Loud Laugh* (Score:3, Funny)
Trollometer:
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Google & MS aren't stupid (Score:2)
Oh, and some grandstanding, too.
Chip H.
Stupid hypocrite lawmakers... (Score:5, Insightful)
OMG.. No they didn't.. I can't believe they want to make money while sacrificing some American principles..
Meanwhile, lawmakers are getting paid how much by tobacco, big media, defense contractor, corrupt unions, questionnable interest groups, etc?
Maybe someone can help me out and post another few thousand ways Congress and the Senate are corrupt..
profits before free speech (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, a publicly traded company is supposed to put profits first. If your politicians want them to put some other principle over and above that, all they have to is change the law, making it mandatory.
Bzzzt!!!! (Score:2)
No, they are supposed to obey the law first, starting with the constitution. A company can not kill a person in order to boost profit. Yes, a publicly traded company has an obligation to the shareholders, but that obligation does not take priority over other laws.
If you and a friend visit a country that condones murder, and you kill your friend, you'll still be acountable when you come home to the US. Not sure what happens if you kill a
Re:Bzzzt!!!! (Score:2)
f you and a friend visit a country that condones murder, and you kill your friend, you'll still be acountable when you come home to the US. Not sure what happens if you kill a local while you're there... So if you go to China and Google is censoring the net while you're using it that's illegal. I'm not sure about censoring the locals, but it still violates our principals.
You're just making that up, really. If you go to this fantasy country that condones murder, you won't be legally accountable when you r
Re:Bzzzt!!!! (Score:2)
would have to read:
If you and a friend visit a country that has mandatory murder, and you kill your friend... would you still be held accountable?
So, since murder is probably too vicious an example, let's try another one instead:
If you have a liquor store chain, (since in your home district (the US) private corporations like yours sell alcohol). You wish to expand
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What if they were following OUR laws? (Score:2)
I agree with the sentiment.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:What if they were following OUR laws? (Score:2)
If a company comes here to do business, they have to abide by our rules against marijuana. If we go to China to do business, we have to abide by their rules against criticism of the Party. If we go to Morvikonia to do business, we have to agree to help them round up and execute women who have been unf
Re: (Score:2)
Re:What if they were following OUR laws? (Score:2)
FTA (Score:2)
And they will continue to do so unless it is no longer profitable to do so.
"Corporate Ethics" is an oxymoron. The only real way to keep US firms from doing such unethical things is to make it unprofitable for them to do so. This can be done in any number of ways -- by fine or revocation of charter for repeat offenders. Remember that the fine must be >= the profit made from
Hypocritical? (Score:3, Insightful)
Seems a bit hypocritical, if you want to stop the perception of helping a censoring government, then stop all trade with China, not just IT.
I don't agree with the fact that these companies are helping censor the Chinese internet, but what about all the other companies that directly or indirectly help the same people profit through other means?
And what about human rights/worker rights/environmental protections? Is censorship a greater problem than these?
Re:Hypocritical? (Score:2)
Re:Hypocritical? (Score:2)
You're joking right? That's impossible.
Right, congress, that's the paragon of free speach (Score:5, Insightful)
Maury
Re:Right, congress, that's the paragon of free spe (Score:2)
This happens in every discussion about China on Slashdot. China defenders, like you, attack the US on the human rights mistakes it makes in order to excuse or paper over worse abuses in China. I'm not sure why you are so bent on giving China a free pass to suppress dissent.
I'm perfectly comfortable taking a moral stance for abolute human rights, regardless of whichever government is trying to abuse them. Suppressing speech abou
Re:Right, congress, that's the paragon of free spe (Score:2)
Not just that; they are complaining about Google giving in to China's censorship, when Google have already been censored by the DMCA in the USA at least twice. One [wired.com]. Two [outer-court.com].
Congressmen, not "US Gov't" (Score:2)
Re:Right, congress, that's the paragon of free spe (Score:2)
They bow to Germany too... (Score:2, Informative)
Wait a minute.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Technology or business (Score:2, Insightful)
I understand the fact that these officials are unhappy that technology companies are aiding the oppressive Chinese government, but there's two things that need to be considered.
First of all, if there's anything that's truly international, it's the internet. People in china need access to blogs, search, and all the rest just like we do. Most people are not going to blog about democracy or political freedom, they're going to blog about what they did or didn't do that day. They'll blog about girls or boys the
Haha, Congresscritters at work! (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the only solution is to make sure the Senate, the House, and the Presidency
Lemme get this straight (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft and Google do business in another country. They follow that
countries laws, and that makes them the bad guy?
The law is the law. When doing business anywhere, you must obey the laws that
that land, not just the laws you agree with.
And moreover, if you want to put pressure on a foreign body to change their
laws.... wouldn't that be the job of politicians (talking to other
politicians) and not the job of some corporation?
Re:Lemme get this straight (Score:3, Insightful)
1) These tech companies have no choice but to do business with China.
2) There is no such thing as civil disobedience. A law is a law is a law, and if it says to throw live puppies in the mulcher then by God, that's what you do.
3) Corporations have no responsibilities beyond their own bottom lines. Not to human decency, not to the environment, not to the quality of life of their customers or workers. The governments of the countries in which they do business are the corpor
Re:Lemme get this straight (Score:2)
laws.... wouldn't that be the job of politicians
Actually it seems that more and more this is the job of the US Armed Forces, isn't it? Don't like said government then invade and replace it without ever issuing a formal declaration of war, from Grenada to Iraq. Terrorism has now provided a wonderful excuse. The UN and international law are ignored.
Tell me, who is next on
LOL @ Congress (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not like american and chinese manufacturers treat workers of sweatshops that well. Google's actions do zero harm to the chinese people. The government will only allow a censored google through the "great firewall." It's much better for the people to have a powerful search engine and in
Senate would never do this... (Score:2)
Congressional Human Rights Caucus home page (Score:2)
Here it is:
http://lantos.house.gov/HoR/CA12/Human+Rights+Cauc us/ [house.gov]
And here is their member list:
http://lantos.house.gov/HoR/CA12/Human+Rights+Cauc us/Members/ [house.gov]
Yeah we can all goggle but why not add a bit of value?
This all makes sense (Score:2)
The people in China lack certain rights and expectations that we have in the United States. If they get ticked off enough about it, they'll do something about it.
For those not familiar with the history of cell communications in China, back
The Great God of Capitalism (Score:2)
You'd think that, of all places, they'd know this by now in Washinton D.C.; a city in which monopolists have nothing to fear and lobbyists have everything to gain (especially during the last five years).
Perhaps more good can come of this (Score:2)
That's good as debate may help. Remember though it's not a company that can restrict speech it's government that does.
Not that I am supporting those companies decisions. They are just doing what the US government does. I think those who go before this panel they should ask questions themselves about policies that help countries like China.
The pot & kettle calling each other black (Score:2, Informative)
Google Response (Score:5, Informative)
My apologies if this has been posted already.
Sticks and Stones (Score:3, Insightful)
You are spying on your own citizens. Claiming a company is being un-american because they're abiding by other states' laws when you cannot follow your own is a little silly.
You won't allow half a dozen four letter words on TV, and heaven forbid any boobies. Decrying censorship is hypocritical.
Pot. Kettle. Black. (Score:3, Insightful)
Please explain why the government granted China " most favoured nation [planetpapers.com]" trading status despite their repeated and unapologetic human rights abuses. How dare you betray the ideals of the American view of human rights?
When you can answer this question without using the words "we make more money," then you can criticise others for their actions in China.
Does that mean ... (Score:2)
Pot.Kettle.Black (Score:2)
Pot calling Kettle... come in, Kettle... (Score:3, Informative)
1. Grant China Most Favored Nation trading status.
2. Bend over backwards to ensure that US/China meetings are not harmed by any silly protests about Tibet (or Xinjiang, or anywhere else...)
3. Move manufacturing to China.
4. Deal with annoying 'pandering to China to make a short-term buck' image, by freaking out at US companies who obey local laws.
5. Profit! Actually, profit at every step!
Didn't need the ??? this time, cause it's all kind of straightforward.
Not really (Score:2)
So, allegations of hypocrisy are misplaced in this particular instance.
Again, better than not going there... (Score:4, Insightful)
What happens if they stay out? Then China uses its massive population to develop equivalent services, thereby reinforcing their monoculture. Staying out is NOT going to bully the Chinese government into changing laws. They have no incentive to do so.
As long as there's SOME influence of foreign information services in China, there will be some leakage of outside ideas into China.
Yes, we all wish that China would wake up and embrace democracy and freedom for its people. But we also wish that Pakistani Muslims would stop hating Hindus for being "idol worshipers", but that isn't going to happen any time soon either.
Re:Again, better than not going there... (Score:2)
If everyone stood by their principles, hardly anyone would make any profit at all. Profit will be sought regardless of principles so long as there is not a law that specifically forbids it - and even then in such a case a law against it means even _greater_ profit...
Slashdotters drop the ball on Civil Rights (Score:2)
How easily these posters toss aside other people's civil rights. As Martin Luther King wrote, serving jail time to protect the rights of Americans reading this,
Re:Slashdotters drop the ball on Civil Rights (Score:2)
Most posts aren't defending the Chinese government. They're criticizing the fact the the US Congress continues to defend the Chinese government by virtue of granting Most Favored Nation trade status (as well as financing much of the US budget with funds loaned by the Chinese), and then hypocritically turns around and hounds individual companies over their trade activities with China.
It's the government's job to set policy, not indiv
In Other News... (Score:2)
Slashdot readers expode trying to decide to defend Google and Microsoft or Free Speech and US Congressmen.
"Free Speech"? (Score:4, Informative)
Suppose you're a librarian and an FBI agent shows up and wants to know the complete list of books and websites this particular Muslim patron looked at. They don't have a court's warrant, but you still have to comply, of course. You're outraged, you want to scream, you want to protest, you want to blog, you want to write a letter to the editor, you want to call your congressman! Oops, nope, can't talk about that, sorry, it's illegal. That's freedom of speech for you, in these United States of America.
The same is true for bank employees [projectcensored.org], by the way, and everyone working with financial records, including casinos, pawn shops, U.S. Postal Office, car dealerships etc.
but, but, but... (Score:2)
Minimum Wage (Score:2)
Re:I'll buy this when.. (Score:2)
-WS
Re:Can't limit it to tech companies (Score:2)
All that said, I think China is i
Re:Can't limit it to tech companies (Score:2)
Re:Can't limit it to tech companies (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd be all for it if it were more unilateral. It would help force China to play more by international rules than by their own.
1) Who makes these "international rules?" Not a representative body that I can vote for, that's for sure. Screw that.
2) What gives us the right to do that to China and not vice versa?
Re:Can't limit it to tech companies (Score:2)
Re:Can't limit it to tech companies (Score:2)
Or maybe China could prohibit it's companies to deal with countries that allow freedom of speech?