The H-1B Swindle 719
An anonymous reader writes "A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill." From the article:"When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573 ... H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. 'That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners,' the report notes. "
This is news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is news? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:This is news? (Score:2)
They'll even get people in country, tailor job listings so specifically that only the H1B can be hired under it, and then not pay them the wages other workers would get. Shameful.
Slightly incorrect research. (Score:5, Insightful)
Other issue is that it does not compare apples to apples: most H1b are non-managerial positions with relatively low experience, while national average includes middle managers. One need to compare H1B to the people in the same position.
And it looks like reducing numbers of H1Bs does wonders to the IT jobs retention in U.S. indeed. Not.
Raises (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Raises (Score:4, Insightful)
In all decent companies I know about H1B workers are given raises and are generally well regarded. In my group they are probably the brightest employee.
Code monkeys are in India. Know your enemy.
Re:Raises (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Raises (Score:4, Insightful)
I worked with an H1B visa - as soon as he was a permanent resisdent he told his old company to kiss off and left for a better deal. I have looked at what they are paying new H1B visas (based on the required postings) compared to new college hires, and they were paid ~20% less.
And I bet you wonder why the number of american kids enrolled in technology and science degree programs keeps dropping. I've got news for you - the kids aren't stupid - they see that there is no real future there. Take a look in the mirror - you get to see one of the causes!
Re:Raises (Score:5, Insightful)
They ARE stupid if they think that science and engineering has no future. Where do these brilliant students go to make money? These geniuses are either going to leech off their parents or they are not going to be well off if they reject science as an option. Do you think a law degree or a medical degree is so lucrative compared to a good engineering degree? I'm not so sure about that.
The truth is that kids aren't becoming scientists not because of money, but because they are looking for a way to have a good life, meaning make a good contribution to the world. We put scientists down as geeks and emphasize money over all else. There is zero appreciation for science in the popular culture, compared to Indian and Chinese cultures, where becoming an engineer makes you a respected professional, even a hero to your family.
The fact is that unless we continue to improve our skills here, we will lose ground. The fact is that complaining about how hard our competition in the labor market works is not going to cut it -- we will have to work as hard as they do. They want it more, so they are getting it. They are offering their labor for a lower price and it is just as good usually. Why shouldn't they get the prize?
Re:Raises (Score:4, Informative)
Well let's see:
Point 1) Our US students that go beyond a BSEE tend to get an MBA. It is easier and typically pays better than a MSEE. More respect in business and shorter hours as well.
In fact a few years ago the Dean of the School of Management PO'd local CEOs of high tech companies by saying that they needed to raise salaries and treat engineers better - right after the CEO pi--ed and moaned that they could not hire enough US engineers. [Personally, I'd be bored to tears as an MBA but that is me.]
Point 2) My wife (an MD) makes a lot more than I do... I have a PhD and similar numbers of years of experince. Finally my older brother a JD (lawyer) makes a lot more then me. Both of them are treated better as well. I guess our students are not all that dumb. But then this feeds right into your next point. US businesses do not really care about engineers and there is no real respect for the field. [Again, I'd go nuts in almost any other field - but that is me and I am not typical.]
Re:Raises (Score:3, Insightful)
Says the twenty-something poster on slashdot. I like that. It's a "surplus-population"-phrase for the new century! Tell me, when's your expiration date?
Which infers that it also sucks smart people into the medical field with the promise of wealth and status, people who maybe would've been engineers.
But wait... if what you're saying is true, you've just invalidated the anti-"Lexus standard" point of one of you links--which is th
Re:Raises (Score:3, Informative)
You forgot an MBA. Regardless, the answer to your qestion, here in the US, is generally *yes*.
Now, most doctors (at least the ones I know) work crazy hours, and their job description is increasing crappy, thanks to our wonderful health care system. And corporate lawyers (at least the ones I know) tend to work crazy hours, and man I can't imagine anything more life-sucking than corporate law.
Me, I am trained
Re:Raises (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know about the US, but here in the UK I have the distinct impression that a top lawyer will be earning more than a top engineer could ever hope to. For example, I've never heard of a programmer charging more than about £1000/day, while I have heard of lawyers charging £1750/hour. (Of course they won't be pulling that in 8 hours/day, but even 1 hour/day gives them 75% more than the programmer, plus potentially a boat-load of free time)
Also doesn't account for conversion (Score:5, Informative)
I make more money now than when I was an H1B and it has nothing to do with my visa status and everything to do with the fact that I have more experience doing what I do now than I did before.
Re:Also doesn't account for conversion (Score:5, Informative)
This argument overlooks the fact that the H1-B program is designed to allow employers to aquire talent that isn't available within the US. That would mean that these people are valuable. They shouldn't be grunts, they should be people who poses detailed and specific information which wasn't avaible in an American candidate. That being the case, the H1-Bs should be appearing near the top of the pay curve, not the bottom.
ah! an easy troll for a looong day! (Score:3, Funny)
I feel a bit tired today, so I decided to pick on an easy troll to squash, for my personal amusement.
PhDs are granted for NOVEL research, dude/dudette. Someone with a PhD basically means he/she has knowledge in some (however esoteric) field that nobody else has.
Ah! That feels better. Now back to the salt mines.
Re:which are you, a manager or a foreigner? (Score:3, Insightful)
I've seen a survey that points that average MCSA salary at $47k in 2003. If you don't like the market forces that play into that salary, feel free to move to y
Re:This is news? (Score:5, Interesting)
So, I'm not sure if what you are saying is really true, or.... I'm not going to get into that.
Re:This is news? (Score:5, Interesting)
As others have pointed out the data is probably very skewed time wise. My recently approved green card application was for experience and salary levels from 2001 due to some quirky laws around the application.
Re:This is news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Moreover, INS (now USCIS) has a prevalent wage requirement for H-1B workers. I believe that wage is about $75K for software engineers currently. Thus, any employer offering a salary below this rate to a software engineers should/would be denied the H-1B visa.
There is a big difference between should and would. First, there is no active enforcement of H-1B program regulations. That has never been funded by Clinton or Bush, so the DOL simply doesn't do it - they don't have the people. The only way to get enforcement of the regulations is via lawsuit against a company. Second, any company hiring H-1Bs is allowed to use its own method to determine prevailing wage if they want, and the last time I checked, nearly 70% did so. They are also allowed to set the worker's title of course, so it's easy to hire an experienced programmer as an associate. The government's own study (as well as independent ones) have shown H-1Bs are paid 15% to 30% less than resident workers for the same job. (And I gave links to all this stuff the last time this subject came up, so it's pointless to do it again - it doesn't do any good.) Just because your company doesn't abuse the program doesn't mean that other companies are as ethical.
Re:This is news? (Score:3, Insightful)
You wrote exactly what I was going to write.
There is no shortage of I.T. workers, only a shortage of I.T. workers at a cut rate wage.
Re:This is news? (Score:3, Insightful)
But on the other hand, employees who say "we have plenty of engineers" is just saying "I want to be paid more".
When the US engineering unemployment rate is 5%, we have plenty of engineers. Before the last decade, rates were typically around 2% or less. Importing labor when there is already a glut only puts more people out of work.
OK, that's obvious on the surface... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:OK, that's obvious on the surface... (Score:3, Insightful)
Bull. It went back from 200000 per year to 65000 (plus 20K for those with U.S. degrees).
as many are only in the US for the short haul and could care less about Social Security, schools, infrastructure, etc.
Bull. They pay Social Security, Medicare and all other taxes, while they are not eligible for the benefits.
Illegal aliens and outsourcing are our enemy. Quality educated folks coming here to work their asses off are our
This is common (Score:5, Interesting)
My employeer scours the fourth world for masters degrees, sponsors thier visa, then pays them $10/hour and forces them into unpaid overtime. After all, if they complain, the company can just stop sponsoring thier work visa
Unethical? Yes.
Illigal? Not in this state.
-Annonymousguywhodoesntwanttogetfired
Not only that. (Score:2)
Re:This is common (Score:3, Informative)
Re:This is common (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is common (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This is common (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This is common (Score:5, Funny)
'thier'?
'illigal'?
And you wonder why companies hire foreign workers?
oblig. pointing out of mistakes in parent post... (Score:4, Insightful)
On the spelling front, for example, you misspelled the word "pity".
On the grammar front you forgot an "a"; "I work with a couple of American". (Yes, that's with a capital "a", too.)
Lastly, your first sentence would be more proper if it would read "Spelling and Americans ? You must be kidding me!!!" or "Spelling and Americans - you must be kidding me". The form in which you've written it now seems to indicate that you are saying "you must be kidding me" to both Americans and a person who goes by the name of "Spelling".
--
That said - who cares ? I've seen similar errors in letters written directly by CEOs (not passing through their secretaries/etc.) and even in press releases. It *would* be nice to hold everybody to a high standard to help keep it up, but I think it's far too late.
Re:This is common (Score:3, Insightful)
Anything? Well then, let's bring back slavery.
Then workers don't need to be paid at all.
Re:This is common (Score:4, Insightful)
So if slavery was legal, then it would be OK?
If memory serves, it was legal at one point.
Just because something is legal, does not make it right or best.
Which was my point of my original post:
The 'anything that can be done, should be done' argument should be tempered with some ethics.
Re:This is common (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you really think Americans should receive no preference in getting American jobs? If your vision is realized, then countries are just meta-corporations with no alleigence to their own citizens. In that case, do you think anybody will be dumb enough to join the military in their defense?
Re:This is common (Score:3, Informative)
The problem is that, due to managed care, nursing wages are low, nursing workloads are high, wards are running on skeleton crews, and the nurses aren't stupid. They're getting out of nursing faster than the domestic nursing schools can graduate new ones.
There have already been a couple of cases of U.S. hospital wards where the operating language was Tagalog, not English. This is OK as long as al
Re:This is common (Score:3, Insightful)
contributes towards generating revenue?
And so is electricity, and so is lots of other things.
And do you suppose the seed of the farmer
are 'just a liability'? The seed, the manure, and pencils,
are all directly contributing towards generating his income.
The toilet paper in the bathrooms (to you, 'liability')
is actually more important than the last sale. Is it not?
Re:This is common (Score:4, Insightful)
It's unethical for two reasons. First, the H1B regulations require that employers pay prevailing market rates for the talent they're importing, which they clearly aren't. Second, it provides a lever to help lower everyone else's salaries, while the executives pocket huge bonuses for dubious reasons.
Re:This is common (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually yes.
Follow my logic here...
If the intent of H1B is to get talent that simply isn't available locally, then the best way to treat these workers is to give them a green card the moment they're hired. That way, there is no pressure to stay with an employer if they are underpaid. If takes away any incentive to underpay these folks because they'll simply move elsewhere. That protects the H1B and the American worker.
If the intent of the H1B is to get cheaper labor, then these folks are little better than indentured servent filling out time being underpaid for the promise of a green card after 5 years. If that's the intent of the law, then lets be honest about it and stop lying about the lack of local talent.
[BTW: You can tell an ad to prove no local talent exists... its always like this:
WANTED: Senior Oracle DBA (10+ yr) with extensive Java programming skills, and Masters Degree in Mathematics. Salary up to $48K depending on relevant experience.]
Cost to hire? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Cost to hire? (Score:2)
Re:Cost to hire? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Cost to hire? (Score:2, Informative)
Given that HKG is in China, and near Taiwan, and the rest of asia is even closer I think that about covers that.
Nice try, but please, save it.
Having dated a Taiwanese girl, I can tell you first hand that they:
a) pay for the visa processing out of their own pocket.
b) have to work the first two months withount pay while their visas pro
Re:Cost to hire? (Score:3, Funny)
A quick look at travel.yahoo.com says I can send an indian worker back to India TONIGHT for $1778 going Chicago(ORD) -> Newark(EWR) -> Hong Kong(HKG) -> Bangladesh(DAC)
One problem with this: Dhaka (formerly spelled Dacca, hence the airport code DAC) = the capital of Bangladesh.
Bangladesh != India.
Cancelling the contract of the Indian H1-B in question is one thing...but dumping his ass off in the wrong country that same day? Do you plan on kicking his dog too? ;)
Geography correction (Score:3, Informative)
Hong Kong is not in China contrary to what you have heard . Hong Kong borders China and is not fully part of China until 2047. In 1997 the British started the hand over process to the Chinese, where the next 50 years the one country - two systems policy is being implemented. Hong Kong is designated SAR, which stands for Special Administrative Region. If you go to Hong Kong they will give you a free tourist visa at the airport and then if you try to cross over to China's border you'll pr
Re:Cost to hire? (Score:5, Insightful)
The theory that "funny-named people who speak with an accent tend to have a harder time getting hired for as much money" is as equally sound of a conclusion as this guy's conclusion. At least my theory could actually be proved if you used better information in the study. It's a lot harder to prove a mind-reading result with financial data, as opposed to say, a controlled survey of the people who have hired H1-B workers.
The article can be summed up as:
1. Add up some random salary facts
2. Ignore any major controls for those facts
3. Draw completely irrelevent conclusion (He makes a socialogical conclusion reading employers minds based on financial data.)
4. Post a commentary to
4. ????
5. Profit!
From the well-duh dept. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm curious, did anyone at all believe otherwise?
Re:From the well-duh dept. (Score:4, Insightful)
In some areas, it doesn't matter where you come from as long as you have the right skills. I'm from a north european country and can honestly say that I will not get an American citizenship, ever. I probably move back home in 5 - 10 years time and retire.
Re:and that's exactly why you _shouldn't_ be hired (Score:3, Informative)
In fact, the purpose of an L-1 visa is to be a temporary work permit for employees/managers so that companies can expand their operations, introduce new business methods, train new staff etc. in the US to fortify the company's future position within the US, thus benefitting the country in both the
Re:From the well-duh dept. (Score:2)
In California, this probably is news to a lot of people.
They make more than me (Score:2)
Re:They make more than me (Score:2)
Re:They make more than me (Score:2)
If this were true, why no Mexican H1Bs? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:If this were true, why no Mexican H1Bs? (Score:2)
Re:If this were true, why no Mexican H1Bs? (Score:2)
Report sponsored by The Programmer's Guild (Score:4, Insightful)
Still, in reality, is this any different than Norm Matloff's reports saying exactly the same thing over the past 5 years? And does anybody REALLY have any doubt that guest worker programs are just ways to lower wages in a given industry?
The exact same method was used to break up the California Agriculture Worker's Union back in the 1970s- and will continue to be used.
In other news... (Score:2)
Cheaper yes, but less skilled? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cheaper yes, but less skilled? (Score:2)
That last would be really interesting- the globalists usually claim that free markets prevent war rather than causing it!
Re:Cheaper yes, but less skilled? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cheaper yes, but less skilled? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's nothing anybody can do about it, was the claim above. What specifically to the globalists suggest we do about the same skillset being allowed a half a world away at 1/10th the
Re:Cheaper yes, but less skilled? (Score:4, Insightful)
In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
Water is Wet!
Companies are about making money!
So from my pay... (Score:2, Interesting)
Hey, wake up, pay sucks everywhere. Even for those born here. Consequence of the extended hangover from that double bubble burst...
Lesser evils (Score:4, Interesting)
We need to invest in schools and teach our kids skills (like how to reason). It's the only realistic way to prevent sliding into mediocrity.
Re:Lesser evils (Score:3, Interesting)
An Indian acquaintance (who is a semi-powerful businessman back in India) says that outsourcing was the direct result of reducing H1B visas several years back.
In most instances, Indians rather immigrate, but with a visa shortage they were contented to be paid significantly less and remain in India. His point was that the US shot itself in the foot, and is about t
H-1B = tech slavery (Score:2)
The companies do generally pay the legal fees for said person to get a green card. So while the time as H-1B is "bad" compared to being a citizen or green carded, most of them feel it is worth it for the green card. After all the INS listens to high paid corporate lawyers much better than to the poor immigrant. (Or maybe the lawyers just know how to work the system bet
I'm a H1-B employee... (Score:4, Interesting)
On a side note, I can't vote here despite paying my taxes to Uncle Sam, but I can vote in UK elections by mail.
The other down side is that if my job goes, my visa goes with it soon after and I'm on the next plane back. However it becomes a lot easier to go through the green card application process when you're based here.
Sweet, my job is safe! (Score:2)
No skill? (Score:2)
System or people? (Score:4, Insightful)
Some might argue that the industry is taking advantage of H1b worker's cultures to keep their salaries low. I think it's more the other way around. This subject seems to garner quite a lot of hysteria and sensationalism and is a very good tool for politicians and certain media companies who claim to report news to further their own agendas.
BTW, I'm no longer an H1b. I moved to Canada, a country that is more accepting of immigrants.
ask them how they feel (Score:3, Funny)
Arrogance (Score:3, Funny)
We think just because we are American that that entitles us to higher pay than the rest of the world. If we werent so arrogant we wouldnt see the outsourcing of jobs we do. Accept the fact that 53K is a good wage and anyone can live quite happily on that amount.
Oh wow, no kidding?! (Score:4, Insightful)
They have no incentive to pay them well. As always, they will pay only the absolute minimum necessary to get someone to do the job, and yes considerations like "quality" are fortunate if they are considered at all like all non-bean-countable aspects of business. The result is more money concentrated in the hands of the few, fewer well-paying jobs for skilled people in this country, and oh yeah a little bit different distribution of what wealth remains. Gutting the American middle class for fun and profit!
And if the ones getting those not-so-bad paying jobs in India think they aren't going to be next when the greedy whores realize that someone in China will work for a third of what the Indian does, well, they'd be exactly like we were not so long ago.
I wish there was some reasonable way to cap the salary of executives to, say, 20x what their average employee makes, including outsourced/contracted work (which is part of what makes this seem impractical to me). Cap their bonuses and other compensation similarly. Then you'd stop seeing employers struggling to pay their employees less and less, they'd have an incentive to pay them more. Since they'd be paying more for employees, you might see them caring more about quality that they're getting for their money no matter where they are hiring from.
Re:Oh wow, no kidding?! (Score:3, Insightful)
I really hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but that's not going to happen.
The Boards of Corporate America are also the CEOs of Corporate America. For example, the CEO of my corporation is also the Chairman of the Board, and he's also on the Board of Directors of another company. This is pretty typical. It's all a big incestuous network of corporate
Did anyone stop to think... (Score:2)
Indians.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I work with Polish, Chinese, Pakistanis, Indians, Spanish, Japanese, Italians and of course USians and British people, and frankly the language is a non issue in mos
Sigh. (Score:5, Interesting)
Yet, the oppressed foreigners keep taking advantage of the visas. Shame on the evil corporations for taking advantage of these poor people. To think, they could be spending more on their own countrymen and supporting their grossly disproportionate wages.
Rather than say, "Hey, you're trying to pay less for programmers!" we should be saying "Hey, are we getting paid too much? Are we pricing ourselves out of positions?"
Don't get me wrong. I've been a programmer for quite some time and it sucks, but supply and demand concepts aren't limited to one country. The world is getting smaller and more connected. National economies are merging into a world economy. No amount of artificial propping-up by local governments is going to keep it from happening. Get used to it.
"Free" Markets (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Any cheap work that could be done overseas is already being done overseas. The work that's left in the US would stay in the US regardless of what pay programmers demand. So, companies can only reduce the amount they pay in wages by artifically increasing the workforce and reducing the demand for high-skilled workers.
This has nothing to do with "free" trade in labor and everything to do with market manipulation. These companies do not want to deal with the free market as it's currently structured. So, instead of dealing in the free market, they'd rather redefine the labor market in their terms.
These companies would rather have completely open borders in the US where everyone from everywhere could freely enter. We've already heard Bush say exactly that. Labor costs in the US would plummet. So would the standard of living, but companies and the current administration don't actually care. The only reason they don't push that through now is that they've been pounding security for the last four years. Also, the majority US citizens, both Democrats and Republicans, don't want any more foreigners entering the country to take away jobs. If anything, people want the foreigners to leave so we could actually get some work and decent pay raises around here.
Re:"Free" Markets (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're requiring a certain structure, it ceases to be a free free market. What you're attempting to do is prop up the economy by limiting the number of competent workers that can come in and work here. This mindset has failed miserably in the past. It happened to the textile industry. It happened to the steel industry. It's happened to the automotive industry. Now, it's hitting the IT industry. The standard of li
Re:"Free" Markets (Score:3, Interesting)
You: That would kind of be the definition of "free market" any market that doesn't fit that description would be a "non-free market".
The idea that the US labor market is not currently free is pure rubbish. Companies are free to hire any worker in the market who they want. And workers are free to work for whatever company in the market that they want. Further, the fact that comp
Re:Sigh. (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong. I've been a programmer for quite some time and it sucks, but supply and demand concepts aren't limited to one country. The world is getting smaller and more connected. National economies are merging into a world economy. No amount of artificial propping-up by local governments is going to keep it from happening. Get used to it.
I will not get used to it. There's a difference between competing in a free market and having your own government bring in non-US citizens to compete directly
Send 'em home (Score:2)
If we'd just stop sending people over there to put guns to their heads and force them to come work here, they'd be so much better off.
Giving somebody 75% of an American wage to leave their home country, where the average wage is something like 7.5% of here, is not exploiting them; it's a win for the employer and a win for the employee. They can work here for a year and make what they'd make in 10 years back
Was experience considered? (Score:3, Informative)
In other words, I strongly suspect that the data can partly be explained with the lower average experience (or time on the job, if you will) of H1-B holders. I certainly see that at my workplace.
I work for a quickly growing 600 employee company with a significant H-1B percentage. Part of my job is interviewing and recommending engineers. I have never been pressured to hire an H1-B candidate over a permanent resident or a citizen. Our one and only concern is qualification. I've also never seen a case where the hiring team's choice of a candidate was overruled on the basis of cost.
I don't mean to sound ignorant or anything, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Devils IT Advocate (Score:3, Insightful)
I do not want to pay more for my stuff because you can't compete with foreigners. The alternative is that we just offshore the work in which case they don't spend money in America which is even "worse" for the economy. Please read Bastiat's famous plea [bastiat.org] to ban sunlight for the benefit of candlemakers if you disagree. They were making fun of this type of logic in the 1800s.
This is about illegal activities (Score:3, Insightful)
This article is about bringing to light some general evidence of illegal practices that are defrauding the U.S. Government. It's a serious crime that doesn't get punished often enough and it's pretty sad. I actually still believe in the whole free market drive. If programmers are available from somewhere else cheaper, then let it be. Maybe programmers are overpaid anyway. I don't know enough about it to really know if that's the truth or not. But when we're talking about defrauding the government in order to lower your businesses operating expenses, then I'd say someone needs to be held accountable and should be barred from holding office in a publically trade corporation.
Businesses that operate (and compete against others) using illegal activity should be shut down plain and simple. If the evidence offered by the article is skewed or incorrect then of course that should be discussed and wouldn't it be nice if we had evidence offered that would counter the article's assertion?
Gravy Train Over--Time to Get Real (Score:4, Insightful)
There are two things that you actually have the power to do to help yourself:
Complain if you like, but above all, act.
Mike (trying to practice what he preaches)
Oh please! (Score:3, Insightful)
I've had to go through a number of processes and trust me, H1B's are hardly "easy ways to get cheap labor" for employers.
Maybe you're forgetting that the usual visa cost for one of these is $20,000? Or that the visa only lasts for, at most, 5-6 years?
What about the fact that most cases where "dirty foreigners" are needed are in skilled creative fields like games, which also (suprise suprise) end up having lower salaries?
Or maybe that you have to apply about a year in advance, and that makes ultra-skilled people gravitate towards visas like the L-1 and the O-1(that can be renewed indefinitely), thereby skewing salary surveys?
If employers want cheap labor, they'll outsource to India, not go through years of government red tape and tens of thousands of dollars per employee.
Re:Duh (Score:2)
Do Bears shit in the woods?
When it's cheaper than paying for a quality shit somewhere else.
Re:Well, Duh! (Score:5, Insightful)
"Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use,"
PS: This might be true but I think this has more to do with H1B's being less mobile as far as switching jobs than outright abuse vs. US citizens.
Re:Well, Duh! (Score:3, Insightful)
Why should an employer look at those two things when job performance should be the primary salary measurement? We just let a unix admin go who had 20+ years of "experience" and a college degree. That means 20+ years of screwing up servers in DC's accross the continental US. Nice guy, but I wouldn't let him touch a PC with a 10 foot pole.
In contrast, I've been in the industry since 94. I have no diplomas (not even high school), but have "the mot
Re:Well, Duh! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Well, Duh! (Score:4, Insightful)
If what you say is true - H1-B's are less skilled - then the author's argument is strengthened.
Most people in the tech market today tend to feel that H1-B's are really being used to decrease salary pressure. If you're qualified but demand $80,000/yr, well they can just hire an H1-B at $60,000/yr. That's not what H1-B's are for.
Re:Of course... (Score:2)
Re:Dude, it costs a lot to even HIRE them (Score:2)
Re:It's an investment into your future (Score:2)
Re:How to save big $ (Score:3, Interesting)
The fact is that the real threat is outsourcing overseas. Having some quality people coming over is a good idea: it just needs to be be better regulated. For example outlawing employing H1B workers as contractors would be a good start to get rid of most sweat shops:
By the Constitution of the United States (Score:3, Informative)