Patriot Act to be Expanded 1523
m4dm4n writes "It seems that the patriot act is being expanded rather than scaled back after a vote late Tuesday by the Senate Intelligence committee. The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval, as well as the ability to designate subpoenas as secret and punish disclosure of their existence with up to one year in prison."
Home of the brave... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is Slashdot! Do you actually believe your "right too free speech and redress of grievances" have been stifled for "political dissent"? If Slashdot really affects your life that much then you need to get out more. Besides, Slashdot seems to lean left so what were you expecting? If most of us hung out at with freepers we would be tormented, and it would be expected.
Sometimes you have to sit back and realize this is a forum, not the government, not work, and not your next door neighbor. Get a grip.
It's all to fight terrorism .. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes you think these guys have spent a LOT of time studying the Nazi takeover in Germany and 1984.
Who wants to bet that Co-Intel Pro (or the modern equivalent) is already up and running again.
Me must give up our freedoms to keep our freedoms. Hah, I'll take rampant terrorism over THEIR brand of freedom.
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
THE LAW IS WRONG. DO NOT SUBMIT.
I, unlinke our government, will continue to observe the law of the constitution over all others. If the document is amended and altered so that it no longer represents the spirit of freedom and "for-the-people, by-the-people" government that I feel is the best in the world, then I will leave and find a better government.
One small problem ... (Score:5, Interesting)
You might be well advised to find a better government sooner rather than later should you do so at all. As a citizen of another country with an arguably "better government" (Australia) I'd like to point out that (a) we're trying as hard as we can to be as stupid as America, and (b) Please, please, please put your vote to stopping this stupidity at it's source instead. If all the sane, smart Americans leave we're all f**ed.
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
And you, will sit in jail for being a raving moron. Why was he modded insightful? Other then to show "This is not how you should act."
Here are steps you can take:
Protest the law
Write your senator/representative/governer/presidnt (threaten to not vote for them if they vote for this amendment...and then follow through.)
Sign a petition of as many people as you can get (registered voters preferred)
Complain
Do not prove them right (by breaking the law)
Use the media to your advantage
Get into politics, modify the laws yourself
I guess since the Constitution does not say anything about drinking and driving you go drink and drive right? I guess because the constitution does not mention anything about getting car insurance you don't have any but still own a car right?
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
That's the part that the Patriot Act is trying to sweep under the rug.
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not true. The Constitution was designed to lay some ground rules so that we would not get off course. It is meant to be as constant as reasonably possible. That is why it is so difficult to change it. Even with a Republican majority and a Republican President they were not able to pass an amendment pertaining to gay marriage.
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm actually a registered republican, but as of late I've been feeling pretty out of touch with the party and by the current use of the word I guess I'm now a liberal (just a little background).
I cannot speak for others but my rational for liking or disliking a law or ammendment has nothing to do with it being "convienient" or not. I have a very simple test if I like it or not in cases like this. Does the law/ammendment grant more/expand rights and freedom or does it limit/take away rights and freedom? That is it!
If it gives more rights to people, then its good and I'm all for it. If it limits or takes away rights, then I'm against it. Simple as that. For example, Amendment XIII - Slavery Abolished, Amendment XIV - Citizenship rights, Amendment XV - Race no bar to vote, Amendment XIX - Women's suffrage. Those are all good. Amendment XVIII - Liquor abolished. That is bad.
Now I'm not an anti-patriot act nazi. Most of it is actually pretty common sense stuff, but there are some BAD parts as well. If this article is correct is seems they are expanding the bad parts instead of repealing them as we all hoped.
I really hope being against this type of expansion of the patriot act isn't a conservitive/liberal issue. It'd hope we could all agree this is not in our best interest and work together to try to convey those feelings to those in congress.
Re:Home of the brave... (Score:5, Insightful)
If this takes away rights you had, then conservatives [webster.com] should be against it.
Gulag's? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Gulag's? (Score:5, Insightful)
What the "U.S." cares about is entertainment (TV, movies, music) toys (cars, motorcycles, boats) and bare survival. We're so busy in the pursuit of those things that we don't want to think about politics and governance. Of course once in a while some band of "cooks" will rise up saying crazy things like "patriot act is bad" and stuff but they are forgotten as soon as the next commercials come on.
The masses of the people have to be hurting pretty badly before we will notice what has happened.
Re:Gulag's? (Score:5, Funny)
Or did you mean "kooks"? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kooks [reference.com]
Re:Gulag's? (Score:5, Insightful)
Amnesty is doing the same job that the Administration has congratulated them for many times in the recent past. In other words Amnesty is quite correctly asking the Administration to follow standard humanitarian monitoring (something that is tolerated by many Middle East countries) and a qaint convention called "due process". This is so the rest of the planet can go half way to beliving that statement and as a result may put a little less effort in trying to kill you. Amnesty have done the planet a great service by asking the question loudly, unfortunately the rest of world simply shuddered when it saw the reaction. If supporting due process and accountability is a "leftist" position then I'm a pinko-eco-terrorist and your a baby-eating facist from the ministry of information.
"Go to ANY Islamic country"
Are you happy to wait until your country is worse than Saudi Arabia before you stop swallowing "trust us, were the government" statements?
What I Want To Know Is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What I Want To Know Is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ducking and covering. They're busy being beaten about the head and face with the term "judicial activism."
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you kidding? America is far from remaining democratic, more like sinking into a dictatorship.
Sobpoenas with no judge that people can't know about that are allowed to be made secret and classified scream of the KGB making people disappear in the night and despotism to me.
WWII Generation (was: My new empire!) (Score:5, Insightful)
Their children and grand children haven't learned these lessons of history as well as some of our contemporaries in Germany, Russia and other parts of Europe. As the leading example, no pun intended, we have today a child of a Veteran of World War II in the White House, leading the charge to trade a reduction in civil rights in this country for promised increases in security. On the bright side, there is a debate going on here, a public debate. Consider Bruce Schneier's recent book Beyond Fear [schneier.com], which seeks to help us learn how to consider the trade-offs that security decisions require at all levels, personal and societal.
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths. When we give up civil rights to fight terrorism, the terrorists gain ground. However, we have many checks and balances here and we are a very long way from sliding into totalitarianism of any sort here in the U.S. Unfortunately there are many people who don't see the slippery slope when they step out upon it.
Back on the bright side, today we have more interaction between the people of different countries than ever before. The internet provides opportunity for dialog between the citizens of different countries which is historically unprecedented. German students come to the U.S. and talk to their friends about history, Russian emigrants in the U.S. talk to their friends about what's happening now in Russia, and how strange it is to see things like secret subpoenas and detention without charges and trials in the U.S. I've heard examples of both groups express surprise in conversations with young Americans ignorant of history, "Don't you realize this is how Fascism starts?" With fear. Yoda got that right, for sure. As a citizen of the United States I would like to thank you for remembering and reminding us. There are many of us here who appreciate your patience. We are a young country, but an old Democracy. With your help, we will make it through this without sliding into an Orwellian [wikipedia.org] 1984, nor a Fascistic [wikipedia.org] 1934.
Re:WWII Generation (was: My new empire!) (Score:5, Interesting)
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
--Bene Gesserit Litany against Fear
Simply Brilliant (Score:5, Insightful)
The terrorists who struck The World Trade Center want a world run by an archaic, theocratic totalitarianism with eye-for-an-eye style justice meted out by them and their hand-picked like-minded sociopaths.
You know why? Because from my perspective, those hard line "conservatives" (very large air quotes) who run our government speak about this daily...
A slogan of the Texas republican party (of whom George W Bush is the most prominent member) states "The Republican Party of Texas affirms that the United States is a Christian nation." Several right-wing organizations actively state "Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government." Among other things, the push for Christian Theocracy is more thinly veiled at the top reaches of our power structure (and actually spoken openly in some circles) than it has been since 15th century Puritans.
In addition, today's "conservatives" are leading the push to increased usage of the Death penalty and increasing mandatory sentences while reducing or in some cases completely removing the judiciary's ability to diverge from these mandatory requirements due to extenuating circumstances. This is the first time in America, at least since the Salem Witch trials where the punishment for certain crimes far outstrips the damage or harm caused by that crime. One great example involves "crimes against children". While there are serious crimes perpetrated, the sentencing for such crimes has grown significantly out of proportion with actual research findings showing harm and danger to children. A simple pat on the butt or even a hand on the shoulder can net a mandatory minimum sentence of more than 10 years, though studies show that non-penetrative abuse is statistically shown to have very small long term effects on children when the issue is treated with open discussion, trust and patience.
Small-time drug usage also has been shown to have statistically very little negative effect on society as a whole, but is punished with ever-increasing sentences that far outstrip the crime.
On top of this, top officials in our government often speak of the courts or opposition parties as "getting in the way of progress" when they strike down things like the patriot II and DMCA or the Internet Decency Act... when in reality they are struck down because they grossly infringe on our rights as citizens and people. The proper reaction is to be embarassed that they would make the MISTAKE of outstripping their power,but instead they vow revenge and simply re-write the bills with more "sneaky" language to see if they can get them passed in a second round of voting.
Then, they push laws giving the executive branch power to overrule (war powers act) and oversee (2001 PROTECT act) the legislative branch and judicial branch. Soon, they are appointing chairmen sympathetic to their cause regardless of their qualifications to handle the job and instituting collective organizations through wich they can better consolidate the power base and coordinate covert activities and actions. And a small bit of trivia, KGB loosely translates to "Comittee for Motherland Security" through which most Soviet intelligence and covert operations took place. That was Stalin's equivalent to consolidate his power into a single state entity that reported directly to him rather than to other arms of his power base.
I won't even go into the list of seven countries who have directly violated UN resolutions in the last 5 years (S Korea, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, US) or the countries that have executed minors in the last 25 years (Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, US) or the first-world countries that currently prisioners without trial and without recourse (uhhh US, maybe Russia, China, if they count) or should I point out that the US was the second greatest contributor to what are referred to today as "terrorist organizations", as recent
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Informative)
Although it can be said that the Nazi's borrowed some ideas from mainstream socialist thought such as the expansion of social benifits in the form of programs such as old age pensions, they did not follow many of the core principles of socialism. They opposed the concept of class conflict that is key to most socialist thought. Moreover, their embrace of nationalism, a idealist philosophy, is in direct conflict with the materialist beliefs of most developed forms of socialism. Additionally, most of the more socialist oriented members of the nazi party were killed in the "The Night of the Long Knifes" which was a purge of the left-wing of the Nazi party that Hitler used to consolidate his power. The Nazi government should not be viewed as socialist, but rather corporatist in that Hitler utilized powerful corporations (VW, BMW, MB, etc...) in order to acheive his production goals rather than acheive them directly though the state.
Re:In Soviet America... (Score:5, Informative)
Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Funny)
the US has fair and democratic elections, does not lock up people without a trial, does not torture, and has no weapons of mass destruction..
MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Funny)
+5, informative
+5 years in prison!
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Democracy must not be taken for granted. It needs to be constantly fought for and won, else it will be coopted and lost.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, look at the Parent Television Council (I think thats their name) That one group of ultra conservative parents is responsible for something like 97% of complaints to the FCC for indecency in broadcasting, and has almost single handedly changed the policies of the FCC. Although I totaly disagree with what they are trying to do, (kill all the people you want on TV, but don't show love!) I think its amazing that they have bonded together, and been very loud until they got what they wanted. As much as I disagree with their tactics and message, I have to admire the fact that they can do it, and have a little more hope that maybe others will do something similar for what they believe.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately in America that's not really true because of the electoral college voting system. Unless you can turn enough people to flip the state majority from one party to another, then you have made NO difference. As far as voting goes, America is the least democratic of any election holding country in the world.
The electoral college system provides a sham decocracy that keeps the majority dumb "we're living in utopia" Americans happy with the fig-leaf appearance they're living in a democracy, while being able to ignore all votes except those from a handful of swing states where it can easliy be controlled.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Interesting)
Slashdot admins, please consider this request. Form a politically active branch of
Or will you sit back, content with being another Anonymous Coward...
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not trolling here and perhaps I'm not totally informed, but don't children chant their allegiance to the flag in primary school every day? Isn't it drummed into to everyone to love the constitution? Even though parts of it are hideously outdated and you could argue that every day it is being corrupted further.
Everyone thinks it teaches children patriotism and respect for the authority in place in the country. But it breeds the worst kind of patriotism where people will unquestioningly do whatever their leaders want and will rarely protest against them. True patriots love the landscape, the people and the values they stand for, not some petty symbols and words written on a piece of paper.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it is a bad thing. You can see it on CNN, you can see it in the attitudes of American tourists overseas. They think that, just because random chance led them to being born in the USA, they are somehow a higher form of life than everyone else. Pride in your country should come from the actions of the people themselves striving to better themselves and their country, not from some dogmatic pledge injected into every childs brain.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, my answer is freedom from the government. But most people seem to think the other way.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
A little study of history shows us that point comes at no reasonable compromise.
Furthermore, not everyone is even INTERESTED in reasonable compromise.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
A little study of history shows us that point comes at no reasonable compromise.
I can think of quite a few cases where compromises have been reached:
1. The end of apartheid in South Africa
2. Northern Ireland
Neither of those two solutions were perfect, but in both cases terrorism was effectively stopped by the two parties making a compromise.
Now please name a few cases from history where a compromise could not be reached and where terrorism was then stopped by all out warfare.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of countries in the western world don't govern themselves by Sharia law, women in those countries vote, drive and dress immodestly; but they haven't been attacked by islamic terrorists nor are they hated by the islamic world as you americans are.
Perhaps it might be that those are not the real reasons. Maybe it's because all of these other countries don't invade other arabic (or non arabic) countries just to benefit their oil industry, nor have they supported oppresive dictatorships just because those dictatorships benefit U.S. interests in their region. Or maybe because the whole U.S. pro-freedom/pro-democracy propaganda is pure bullshit, because the U.S. goverment has not supported democratic elected goverments if they were against U.S. interests. (google for "Salvador Allende")
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, what do you expect. Americans are indoctrinated from birth that they live in the "shining beacon of freedom, land of the brave and home of the free" and so on. As if other democracies were nothing but pale copies of perfection. I would at times call it blind faith, that nothing bad could happen here almost by definition. And by implication, that makes the US government the leaders of the free world, equally flawless.
Sure, there are political disagreements but everyone thinks they work for the people, in particular to create economic prosperity. And in this regard to protect the people, all out of acting in the people's best interest. As long as you have such a deluded perception of government, it does not matter how big, how intrusive it gets because it is a big, intrusive force of good. As long as the cause is just, disruption of privacy and civil rights is accepted, because the ends justify the means.
Of course, no other organization in history has ever been able to wield that kind of power without succumbing to abuse, persecution, corruption, power grabs, search for personal profit and so on. If you look more closely at the collapse of empires like the Soviet Union, you see that is one of the biggest reasons for their economic and social downfall, more than the ideology itself. But not the US. Because the US goverment is Good, and the Soviet government was Evil. QED.
Kjella
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but have you ever been to the U.S.?
Your trails of "almost by definition" to "by implication" to QED is ludicrous.
Sure, there are political disagreements but everyone thinks they work for the people, in particular to create economic prosperity.
I don't think I've ever met anybody who believes this. On the contrary, suspicion and mistrust of government is common to almost every political viewpoint anyone holds in this country. Why do you think every politician runs against Washington, no matter how long he's been there?
The simple truth is that people fail to oppose the patriot act because it has zero visible impact on their lives, not because they believe it derives from the heavenly benevolence of government. Argue along that axis (and please, with something less sci-fi than endless repetitions of "They came for...") and you will win every argument you have about the PA.
The stupidity of the right presents such a fantastic opening to its opponents, but they all seem to prefer to scream "brainwashed fascists!" instead of trying to actually win the debate. It's really pathetic.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Insightful)
It always astounds me how many people simply don't care about what many of us consider to be essential civil liberties, or are totally sold on the idea that such draconian laws are necessary to fight terrorism, drugs, child molestation, whatever. It's like arguing with a wall.
There are extremists on both sides of the American political spectrum; the problem is that the "conservatives" (what a stupid term--I think we should start calling them "nationalists") have this crisis of conscience where the social fanatics support the same sort of governmental power that the "my country, right or wrong" types do. And yet they all vote together. On the other side, most moderates or "liberals" have this problem that the wackjob leftist faction is making them look bad.
Bit of a ramble, I apologize, but the upshot is that you have a fairly large minority are very upset about the seeming inability of many voters to grasp the underlying issues, and to understand that the reasoning given for this kind of stuff (to protect the homeland!) is horseshit, smoke & mirrors and is dooming much that the US stands for.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Insightful)
I have to admit, I do feel powerless in the USA. I don't talk politics anymore, because I'm afraid I'll piss someone off, due to it being such a divisive issue (but, hey, this is online, and I don't have to be near anyone I piss off). But the feeling of powerlessness is really very hard to deal with sometimes. I (like many on slashdot) am a liberal, and when I see things like the "Nuclear option" threaten to happen in congress, it scares me. When the party that won the last election 51% to 49% now sees fit to force its policy onto 100% of the country, and when the democrats stand up and say "Hey, we've affirmed a lot of your nominees, but this one is just over the edge.", the party in power threatens to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way.
And I don't even understand everything that goes on in washington. I mean, I have my views: basically, I want peace, separation of church and state, and social progressivism, but it's really hard to find someone on the hill that believes the same things I believe in that's not an asshole.
I dunno, I always see people saying "If you're unhappy with the government, vote! Get involved!". But what happens when you really do vote, and nothing happens. What happens when you're part of the 49% and yet it feels like no agenda you support is ever taken into consideration, much less acted upon. Plus, I'm so damn busy working 50+ hours a week and taking care of the 1 year old so that maybe someday my wife and I can close this gap between the haves and the havenots and maybe, just maybe, afford a house.
~Will
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
The war on drugs did far more to trample the rights of the citizens of the US than the war on terrorism ever has (or will). People whining about this stuff now have been asleep at the switch for a very long time. You want to crusade for freedom - don't start trying to block minor enhancements to FBI power like this. Start by trying to roll back all the laws and court decisions over the past twenty years that have rolled back your 4th and 5th amendment rights, that have elimninated any expectation of privacy in financial transactions, that have made it very difficult to do anything significant in cash. Undo law enforcement's ridiculous powers to sieze your property without trial and sell it for their profit. End racial profile stops that result in drug searches.
It's not some Bush or Republican plot. They're just trying to do to terrorists what we've been doing to drug users and dealers for a really long time. The elimination of our rights has come from both parties, as they've both controlled Congress and the White House over the time this has occurred. If you're mad at Bush personally about the Patriot Act, you're blinding yourself to the fact that it passed the Senate 98-1 [senate.gov]. No party or president has a monopoly on favoring expedience over principle. While Brave Democratic Senators stand up against these largely meaningless provisions of the Patriot Act, no person in any party is making any move to restore the rights we've already had stolen from us.
This Patriot Act crap is mouse nuts compared to what Congress and the courts have done to our rights in order to stop demon weed over the past two decades. I'll be impressed with your clarity of vision when you start being mad about the stuff that's important.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Informative)
Last election cycle we took back three state senate seats from the neo-cons, and fought really hard on two others, getting the one to within 8% of victory and the other to within a mere 18 votes! That puts us 4 seats out from regaining a majority in state senate, and in turning back the neo-con tide here in New York. We also fought really hard to remove a Bush rubber stamp Congressman called Vito Fossella from the district in Staten Island. Got our guy to within 8% again, but because of our efforts the party is now going to focus money and support on that race in 2006.
Right now we're working on NYC races for mayor, etc., but really planning for the mid-term elections in 2006. We're 15 seats out from recapturing the House of Representatives, people. What does that mean? The ability to launch congressional investigations into Cheney's deals with Big Oil, who leaked Valery Plame's name to the press, the Downing Street memo that confirmed that Bush lied to the American public to get them to invade Iraq, etc., etc. It means we can impeach, imprison (at Guantanamo!), and expunge this blight from our country and world.
So get out there and help! The neo-cons are petrified of the idea that Americans will wake up and start fighting back. It doesn't matter where you are in the country, fight back. We vastly outnumber them.
Captain Obvious: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
People get up in the morning, commute for a couple hours, work for ten or twelve hours, telecommute for a couple more hours. Feed the family. Pay the bills. Try and save a bit for retirement (or children's education, etc). Fix the broken shit in the house. Spend quality time with the kids and wife. Get some rest before doing it all again the next day.
Only when the majority are starving, poor and unemployed do they have both the incentive and the TIME to put everything on the line and make a change. Otherwise, it's all they can do to keep up with current events, much less act on them.
It's sad, but it's true. And for more of us than would like to admit it.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Informative)
Most historical revolutions have occured when things were getting better, but not fast enough. When things are really bad people are too busy surviving, but when things start to get better they get the idea that perhaps they deserve more and the system isn't giving it to them fast enough.
That isn't to say some revolutions aren't sparked at the depths, but people tend to become animal like in those conditions and while animals are sometimes violent they are usually only violent in the protection of their little bit of survival rather than any grand ideas.
Of course the US has never really had a revolution, at least not a successful one(the civil war could almost count, though I don't agree with most of what they were fighting for), and has not progressed anywhere near as far as either the UK or most of the other Anglo nations. Though some of them are moving backward rather quickly.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Informative)
Just a bit of history
Thomas Jefferson pushed the bill of rights ever more forcefully as his french friends began to meet the french razor for their accused state in Paris etc. To be blunt, the bill of rights is not something to prevent us from handling terrorism. It is something to prevent the worst kind of terrorism. STATE TERRORISM by a government who arrests without warrant... Jails on evidence obtained by rash seizures and private secret searches... and which keeps anyone who opposes it marked as enemies of the state.
I have been at some length of effort to determine if the Patriot Act as now constituted has any functionality useful for Anti-terrorism. Bluntly it has none. It hasn't even been used for that purpose effectively. The few arrests under it resulted in charges which were so blithly messed up by the Federal agents that they were useless. If you are inclined to believe some of these arrestees were guilty, the US Attorney General and et al were practically enemy agents sabotaging the cases. If you believe the charged were innocent the Attorney General and his minions were playing Gestapo. Even more scary is the reality that both conditions are probably true!
The bottom line is that no additional powers were needed after 911. The USA was not some phlebe in the world without laws or well practiced experience handling such events. Contrary to the claims that we were, terrorism was noted in the US Declaration of Independence. It has ruled US History until about 1940. The Indian Wars and much more were halmarked by such events. The USA does not need to suspend its legal/constitutional protections in order to deal with Al Qaeda. This act and its extension are just plain wrong. The few effective enforcements we know about are even more scary when we find that they were applied to affairs having nothing to do with any acts of terrorism.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, good. America is still free: criticising the leadership is not a capital offence.
Is that the standard now? America - Land of the Not As Bad As North Korea?
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ever heard of slippery slope?
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't like the Patriot Act either, but we aren't to the point where we have to fear being killed for critizing our leadership or laws either.
If your definition of freedom is not having to "fear being killed" by the people who are supposed to be looking out for you, then you deserve what you get.
I'm also amazed by people who use the argument "at least we're better off than ". That belief will keep you in line right up until America is the most abusive, corrupt, damning country in the world.
You really do deserve the rights we Europeans take for granted. Unfortunately you now need to fight for these.
Re:Anyone get the feeling... (Score:5, Interesting)
The USA on the other hand is a democratic country in which freedom has always been a very important thing, a country that has always been trying to expand this freedom to the rest of the world and a country that has always had a large influence on the rest of the world. To see the freedom in this country - of all countries - deterioate this rapidly, is a lot more scary to the rest of the world than the situation in non-democratic and not really that influential countries like China or North Korea.
It's especially this influence the USA has on the rest of the world that makes this scary; think about the situation around DeCSS, the new German passport that has to contain RFID chips in order to get into the USA, requiring armed US air-marshalls on airplanes while the international agreement is: no guns in planes, invading iraq based on false claims about WMD etc. etc.
Short said: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Short said: (Score:5, Funny)
1)Note the names of every assho^H^H^H^H^HPolitician who voted for this.
2)Join the Gesta..., euh, FBI.
3)Serve said politicians a nice spoonfull of their own medicine.
4)Don't forget to videotape them.
5)Wait, while this shit is voted back out of excistance.
6)Sell the DVD.
7)Profit!
How Very Orwellian... (Score:5, Insightful)
Eurasian spies are everywhere....
Hurrah! (Score:5, Funny)
It's just too bad Bush can't have a third term. How will we be safe when he is gone?!
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
True. He has admitted that he speaks with god or jesus. I suppose he could announce that Jesus told him to serve a third term - and there are enough crazy religious sheeple in this country that would accept it.
Anyone who seriously thinks the US is a "police state" right now because of the "war on terrorism" is seriously lacking in historical perspective. The "war on drugs" has been much more harmful to civil liberties for the average American than anything the Bush administration or the last couple of Congresses have done.
As to the original idea - that there are so many "crazy religious sheeple in this country" that GWB could simply declare himself the next coming of Jesus and do whatever he wants: Assuming you're not just kidding, it's a ridiculous statement.
I would happily bet you (or the author of the parent of your post) $1,000 that GWB will not be President of the United States on January 21, 2009. Do you seriously think A) he would just ignore the constitution and B) everyone else would let him get away with it (especially including whomever the Democratic candidate for President is)? How would that work, exactly? He'd call off the election? You think states would stand for that? He'd let the election happen and then...what? Refuse to move out like a tenant who can't pay the rent? If you think that would last more than about three hours you seriously misunderstand this country. Evangelical Christians are a larger percentage of the electorate than I (as an atheist) would prefer, but they are far from a majority in this country. Even if they were able to wield power far in excess of ther size, they are by no means a monolothic block. A large percentage of them, believe it or not, respect the order of law and don't actually want a theocracy in this country (even if they do hold some moral beliefs informed by their religion that I disagree with). Not many of them would want a religiously annointed, unelected leader. Believe it or not.
I mean, you're talking about a man with 45% approval ratings. You seriously think he'd be able to say - whatever his justification - "I'm not going to give up this office," and other people - especially the other people who want said office - are simply going to let him do it?
As to your last point, I agree that I wish people were more educated about the unalienable rights we have. I wish more people understood the way the Constitution attempts to lock the government off to prevent those rights being trampled on. But that's not a new, unique phenomenon - the average American is woefully uneducated about much of our laws and history. I recall reading in the 80s that a majority of high school seniors identified the phrase "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" as being a phrase from the US constitution. So, having no idea what's in that document isn't a new phenomenon.
In summary: The ACLU needed to be screaming more about the rights we lost in the war on drugs. Most of this Patriot Act whining they're doing now is over things of little actual consequence. My fear is that, like the boy who cried wolf, when some future Congress or President really does try to institute a police state no one will be paying attention to the ACLU because "they always scream about everything, but nothing really bad ever happens."
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hurrah! (Score:5, Insightful)
This is an act of the Legislature. Bush can't do this. We can't blame Bush for EVERYTHING. There are a couple hundred people responsible for these laws.
You have one or two from YOUR STATE. Write them. Tell them to stop.
Re:Hurrah! (Score:4, Funny)
US = Jenga (Score:5, Insightful)
Wonder how long you've got before it topples.
Re:US = Jenga (Score:5, Funny)
Don't panic! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't panic! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you hate your country don't like the current political climate, by all means leave. If however you love your country and don't like the currently political climate...then fight for change, whether it be by joining PAC's or just word-of-mouth...do something.
Do you seriously want to abandon what is by any measure the world's most dominate military power to Bush and friends? I don't. I choose to stay and fight.
You people claiming that you should leave because things are not going your way makes you sound like a grade school kid taking his ball and going home when he starts losing.
I spent 6 months in 2002-2003 working in Montreal. I've been to BC, Toronto, Quebec City and other places in Canada. It's a great country and I believe it would be a great place to live (given the proper cold-weather attire, of course!). However, Canada is just like any other industrialized country...with it's own strengths and weaknesses.
Let's just hope the Dems can put up a candidate in 08 that actually scored higher than Bush at Yale [cnn.com]!
As a US Citizen abroad (Score:5, Insightful)
The other way around (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice! (Score:5, Insightful)
The terrorist will not win! (Score:5, Insightful)
Osama (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that he publicly stated this is where it gets interersting, because this leaves open (IMHO) 3 options for the US government:
- US government does not know what Osama said was his reason for attacking the US, and therefor simply react how Osama wants them to react; in this case US government consists of a bunch of morons
- US government knows *damn well* what Osama said and do Osamas bidding, because it suits them well in becoming more like Big Brother
- US government knows what Osama said, but think he is lying. Question is: why would a terrorist be lying? A terrorist wants to get his way, so there is no use in lying about what you want to accomplish through terrorism. Like option 1, US government is filled with morons.
So, US government is either too dumb for words or wants to be like Big Brother. Don't know which of the two is more scary.Not What the Forefathers Wanted (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not What the Forefathers Wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, but we do. Oh, we don't, not we sophisticated intellectuals, but we the people as a whole are very keen on these rules.
Every single damn poll I see reveals massive support for further crackdowns and additional police powers, to protect us from terrorism.
The masses actually believe they're in real danger. They've completely bought into the whole politics of fear we've been fed for the last few years.
With thunderous applause, indeed.
Re:Not What the Forefathers Wanted (Score:5, Informative)
How do...
Why is it...
Well, it might be some sort of plan. See "The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism here [couplescompany.com]. Interesting note:
"As of January 2004, the United States fulfills all fourteen points of fascism and all seven warning signs are present. But we're not alone. Israel also fulfills all fourteen points and all seven warning signs as well. Welcome to the new republic, redefined, revised and spun. It is not too late to reverse this in either country, but it will be soon. The first step is realizing it. The second step is getting involved. As the propaganda slogan disguising our current war goes, "Freedom isn't free." But our war for freedom isn't abroad; it's here at home."
All you yanks can come crash at my place... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:All you yanks can come crash at my place... (Score:4, Insightful)
I hate to say it but Howard and Co are pretty much as morally corrupt as the Labor Government that sat on its hands while Indonesia invaded East Timor.
America's been through worse and survived (Score:5, Insightful)
1. It's nowhere near the situation during, for example, maccarthyism. Read something about the period. People were out of jobs (or forced out of the country!) for no reason at all, other that they were untruthfully accused of sympathizing with communists. And yet, American democracy survived this, and -- if anything -- became only stronger. Really, you should have more faith in the system's built-in mechanisms. It worked amazingly well for two hundred years.
2. There is absolutely no comparison with the real police states, which are, unfortunately, still very common on our miserable planet. I think, It's insulting for the tortured to death victims in Iran, or China, or Russia, to even compare the minor inconveniences that Americans suffer with the police state actions. Looking from most of the Earth, America is land of the free, regardless how funny you may find this claim.
Re:America's been through worse and survived (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:America's been through worse and survived (Score:5, Insightful)
General Yahya Rahim Safavi warned reformers in April, "we are seeking to root out counterrevolutionaries wherever they are. We have to cut the throats of some and cut off the tongues of others." A few days later he threatened, "we will go after them when the time is ripe...fruit has to be picked when it is ripe. The fruit is unripe now."
Executions after unfair trials proliferated, including cases of stoning to death in public. For the first time since 1992 a follower of the Baha'i faith was executed in prison. Other religious minorities, including Sunni Muslims, Evangelical Christians, and Jews were subjected to discrimination and persecution. Prominent dissidents, including writers and editors, were subjected to arbitrary detention and independent newspapers were closed down. New laws were passed discriminating against women and aimed at restricting debate about women's rights. Torture was widespread during interrogation, and the government failed to take steps to halt violent attacks by vigilante groups which serve as enforcers for conservative clerics, known as the Partisans of the Party of God (Ansar-e Hezbollahi) . As tensions with the Taleban rulers of neighboring Afghanistan mounted, Afghan refugees, more than a million of whom have lived in Iran for many years seeking refuge from civil war, were attacked and beaten by crowds leading to several deaths.
Hundreds of people were executed after trials that failed to comply with minimum international standards. In June, the daily newspaper Hamshahri, reported the public hanging of four young men in the city of Ahvaz, in the south, for "insulting" Leader Khamene'i and "armed robbery." Seven people were reported by opposition groups to have been convicted of adultery and stoned to death in October 1997 and six more were reported to have been sentenced to stoning in January. On July 21, Ruhollah Rowhani was executed in the city of Mashhad on charges of converting a Muslim to the Baha'i faith. This execution marked a deterioration in the situation of this intensely persecuted minority. At least fifteen other Baha'is were held in prison and seven were facing death sentences because of their faith. There were further detentions of Baha'is in September when dozens were detained in a new wave of repression. In May, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was arrested and later hanged in prison. His crime was never declared in public and any legal proceedings which occurred did so in secret.
Read the other 10 pages on HRW's site.
Re:America's been through worse and survived (Score:5, Insightful)
Further, you are of course right that the US has already lived through areas in which its freedom was threatened and always had the strength to overcome these problems in the end. However, the problem with your argument is, that the US was able to solve these issues specifically not as some people just leaned back and took a "it worked in the past, it will work now" attitude, but because people fought the developments they saw as threatening their freedoms.
About your second point.
You are of course right that there are far worse countries when it comes to human rights abuses than the US. I think that really goes without saying. However, that doesn't make human rights abuses in and by the US any better, does it?
Further, I don't really think its the same when the US does such things, as when for example North Korey does them. Now don't get me wrong, they are crimes however commits them, but the US is after all the oldest democracy in the world, the worlds only superpower and without a doubt the leader of the so called western, civilized world, whereas North Korea is a criminal and rogue state.
All this because of 9/11? (Score:5, Insightful)
9/11 was just an excuse to implement the police state the Neocons always wanted. The things the US hated the most about Russia is now being implemented and the US citizens is just watching on. As long as the media is pumping out false and outrageous propaganda it wont change either.
Damn im glad i dont live in the US!
You guys.. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's easy to say from across the pond, I know -- but you guys..
So it would appear the plan is to protect your freedom by taking it away from you. Way to go.
Sure if you believe the terrorists "hate our freedom" and want to destroy it, these measures may appear to make some kind of sense.
But the fact is most of these terrorists don't mind your freedom, they mind US foreign policy which is supporting their dictators and exploiting their peoples. They are not fighting the US, they are fighting the US' ruthless protection of corporate interests overseas.
Add to that the sheer hypocrisy of imposing measures on others (e.g. no trade tariffs, no agricultural subsidies, no profileration of WMD, etc) while openly refusing to impose same on yourselves.. Frankly, although I despise violence even more than imperialism, I think I understand why people would fight that tooth and nail.
I really hope that you will stop this madness from within -- otherwise the next 911 is just waiting to happen.. And I hate to say it but that one will be your own goddamn fault.
Re:You guys.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well yes, except that the US usually drag themselves into hot spots, and are quite often responsible for the spots being hot in the first place. Besides, obviously they're in fact very selective in doing so -- I mean, how many US troops in Sudan?
Other countries sniff at our hyprocracy, but frankly, put up or shut up. Most countries don't even give a damn as to what happens to the people in other countries.
Agreed, absolutely. My own government could do much much more in the way of caring for other peoples. That said, do you really believe those troops are in Iraq for altruistic reasons? Torturing Iraqis for their own good? Oil and similar corporate interests have nothing to do with it? Again - how many troops in, say, Sudan?
Start spending huge amounts of blood and treasure in other places and then say "Sure! We think it's ok for you to have completely indiscriminate weapons of destruction in your unstable country."
The reason those soldiers are willing to spill their blood, or the only reason I can imagine at least, is they actually believe they are "helping Iraqis" or "defending the Homeland". Both arguments are easy to take apart. And the treasure, well that treasure is actually really just another channel from US taxpayer's wallets to corporate bank accounts. Unless you can point out the flaw in the following:
Pentagon uses taxpayer's money to buy bombs from Lockheed et al. Blows up Iraqi houses. Uses MORE taxpayer's money to hire AMERICAN companies to rebuild what was destroyed.
You, my friend, should really read up on some info rather than just repeat the propaganda lines. For instance, read Baghdad Year Zero [commondreams.org] by Naomi Klein. Either tell me where she's wrong or admit at least there's more going on then they're telling you..
And why can the US have them? Well, we sure don't get foriegn aid when we have a disaster, do we?
So, you're saying that not receiving aid gives you right to have WMD? Are you even serious? Well what's your beef with North Korea then? How much aid are you giving Iran? Come on..
But I'm curious, if the next 9/11 is going to be the US's fault. Why is that, and how would the US have to change to not have it happen?"
If such an attack would come from the outside, like it did last time, I believe it will very likely be the son of someone you bombed or tortured or dissappeared. Face it, current policies are only creating more terrorists -- even your own agencies are sort of saying this.
One idea would be to change your definition of a "free country" to actually involve freedom, not only subservience to US corporate interests.
This is why I joined the Free State Project (Score:5, Interesting)
Here in New Hampshire, even with just over a hundred people moved, we're already making a difference.
Put aside your preconceptions about New Hampshire (it's not THAT cold, people), about Libertarians (We're a wide mix of positions, from very moderate to extreme), about politics (NH's system is amazingly and uniquely open, and forget 20K, just a few thousand activists could make a huge difference here), and most of all, about liberty and freedom (What are you going to tell your children about what you did when they took your rights away bit by bit?)
Check out the Free State Project [freestateproject.org] now... we don't need 20K activists to move to make a difference, we just need you.
Re:This is why I joined the Free State Project (Score:5, Informative)
No specific towns. Manchester is the _largest_ city (100K), and one activist there told me that if he had a dozen people working together, he could work miracles there. We don't need a 'Free Town' specifically... or a Free County. NH's setup is such that we can do a lot with just a vocal activist minority.
Job prospects? NH has no income or sales tax, much of it is less than 1 hour from Boston, and it has the lowest unemployment rate around.
White hat ? (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a slightly offtopic question. Namely, I was wondering why the politics section in Slashdot has a white hat as its symbol, when all the stories seem to be about politicians doing bad things ?
Wouldn't a black hat be more appropriate ? Maybe even Darth Vader's helmet ?-)
Re:So what are the options here... (Score:4, Insightful)
Good point. We should trust our government. They are better informed than we are. They are more intelligent. The Government knows better than we do what is best for the country. We should not question the government.
So, in your universe, what is the rationale for holding elections at all?
Re:So what are the options here... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So what are the options here... (Score:4, Funny)
You do not go far enough. For freedom and democracy to prevail, we should carry it further. Why should some old piece of paper block the will of the majority elected government? A constitution is inherently tyrannical; it says that there are things that the government, elected by the people, cannot do. What an insult to the principles of liberty that we hold dear!
If the government, voted in by the people, wishes to pass a law then it should be able to do so. That's democracy. Anything else is liberal tyranny and should be abolished.
Re:Meanwhile in Denmark... (Score:5, Insightful)
So, Denmark uses an anti-terror law wrong and this means what exactly?
The mark of a free society is that you can get lawyers, go to court and fight things like this. Or has all the members of Greenpeace been rounded up and executed already?
And everyone is grabbing for power around the world. Sheesh. So, your choices are to either understand and deal with these people.
Or post "The sky is falling" on Slashdot. I suppose the latter is easier.
A little perspective, please... (Score:4, Informative)
The FBI has gained new powers to demand documents from companies without a judge's approval...
The FBI has gained nothing. No laws have been changed. There is no new secret, Judge-free subpoena power. It is possible that there will be such a power in the future, but this is just one of the very first steps needed to get it done.
Other commenters in this thread have bemoaned that poor state of education in the US, that so many citizens don't know what rights they have. Well, it's not quite as grand as all that, but here's a little civics lesson for those of you whose main political information comes from
Laws in this country must be passed in both the Senate and the House. The process is often very messy and cantankerous. Even a very popular bill can get stalled using different parlementary techniques, and it is not uncommon that a bill that looked unbeatable in January will end up dying in some comittee and not passing by the end of the year. More controversial bills are even harder to get through, and there is a very complicated chess game that goes on in which bills are ammended and revised as they move through the process.
This particular bill apparently passed the Senate Intelligence Commite, 11-4, a couple of days ago. If you look in more serious news accounts [nytimes.com], they make it a lot more clear that no new powers have been granted, and this is but merely the opening salvo in a long Congressional negotiation on this topic.
From here, the bill travels to the Senate Judiciary Committe, where "Feinstein and other Democrats planned to again offer amendments. [usatoday.com]" Even if it makes it through there as-is, it would need to be considered by the whole Senate. Even if it passes there, a parallel bill will have been going through an analogous process in the House. Those two bills probably won't be the same by the time they pass both houses of Congress, so from there it's off to the joint committee to come up with a "compromise version" that everyone expects will pass both houses. Finally, the House of Representatives and Senate both vote on the final version, and, if it passes, it goes to the President for his signature.
It is quite impossible to say at this point if some provision voted into a bill in an early Senate committee is going to make it into law.
I believe concerns about this particular provision of the bill to be a bit misplaced. As best as I can determine, this takes the existing system for issuing subpoenas to companies for relevant documentation that exists in "foreign intelligence" cases and applies the same standard in domestive "terrorism" cases. So, for example, if the CIA turned up evidence that someone trained in Pakistan and is a member of Al Qaeda, as it stands right now, they could issue a subpoena without a Judge's prior approval to gather information from (i.e.) the phone company to try to build a case against him. However, if the FBI determined that a purely domestic terrorist was planning on blowing something up, they would not be able to use the same power.
I would like to see a frank and open debate in this country about the privacy and expectation of privacy of records owned by companies. Under the existing US Constitution and laws, if I make a phone call, the record of that phone call belongs to the phone company, not me. The phone company has no fourth amendment protection against "unreasonable searches and seziures," and it is therefore much easier, from a constitutional basis, to get a warrent to request some documents. As well, the phone company has no particular interest in fighting such requests, so it complies with the
Re:Five years of Bush! (Score:4, Interesting)
Nowadays:
We don't have to arbitrarily register with a city hall, just because we live there, that gets passed to anywhere (apart from to pay local taxes, and even that database is so screwed, they can't work out a correct bill, let alone identify anyone with it).
We don't have to carry any ID whatsoever. Some places (banks, video hire shops etc. require a letter saying you're resident at an address).
When you stay at a hotel here, you don't need to provide any ID whatsoever.
The police can request whatever info they want from anywhere. But they make the request to a court, which decides whether the request is a reasonable one, before the police turn up with their warrant.
About 10 years ago, I really wanted to emigrate to America. From travels, it seemed like a vibrant, forward thinking place.
These days, again from travels and experience, those same places are now seeming far more fearful, and closed minded..
These days, I'm always reminded of the old slogans "No taxation without representation" that led the (very justified) revolt.
These days, people just accept the 'tax' on blank media, and all kinds of goods, that just ends up filling the pockets of corporations, with no representation at all..
It sometimes looks as though it's merely taken a few hundred years for the US to get away from what it hated so much to such a point, it's become exactly what it fought against in the first place.
On the other hand... (Score:5, Interesting)
- The UK has a network of surveillance cameras that America's authoritarians can only dream about.
- The UK just had an election in which electoral fraud is strongly suspected, because the postal vote system was left open to abuse.
- In 2001 the Home Secretary described civil liberties as an "airy fairy" concern.
- The RIP Act makes routine surveillance of ordinary citizens a reality. It goes even further than the PATRIOT act, in that it requires ISPs to develop and install monitoring software at their expense, and makes it a criminal offense to refuse to incriminate yourself by handing over your encryption keys on demand. Oh, and it also makes it an offense to tell anyone you're being investigated or that you have been forced to hand over your keys, so much for freedom of speech.
- The UK also amended the law in the 90s so that refusing to incriminate yourself could be used as evidence against you in court--i.e. there is no "right to silence".
- The current government is set on introducing a mandatory identity card with biometric features.
- The UK Official Secrets act allows people to be put on trial for crimes against the state, without being told what they actually did. (i.e. the evidence against them can be ruled secret under the act).
- Even though the ruling party deliberately lied to the country to support a war on Iraq, they were still voted back in with a huge majority--just like the situation in the US.
- The Criminal Justice Act of 2003 suspended the right to trial by jury, and suspended the "double jeopardy" limits, allowing the state to continue to harass people indefinitely.
- The new Home Secretary is now trying to undermine the right to a fair trial.
- The UK government handed over power over intellectual property legislation to the WTO, just like America did. Tough luck if you don't like software patents; the government doesn't have the power to decide not to allow them, because of the GATT TRIPS treaties signed in the 90s. (Signed even though many of us wrote letters to politicians, protested, etc.)
One of the reasons I left the UK is because the country is so damn complacent. For some reason, UK citizens don't care about the UK's lurch towards fascism; they're too busy looking at America and feeling smug. At least Americans seem to be aware of, and care about, their country becoming a fascist state, even if they are powerless to stop it.
Re:A show of hands... (Score:5, Insightful)
And how many of you KNOW your house has not been the target of a 'sneak and peek' operation?
That's what I thought.