Gates Calls for Increase in Tech Labor Supply 827
Randeep Igochyorjob writes "Reuters is reporting that
Bill Gates is asking for the removal of quotas for guest workers by removing the caps on non-immigrant alien workers. In a mild attempt at balance, buried near the end of the story, the article also says "Undersecretary of Commerce Phil Bond, a top Bush administration technology official, pointed out that the unemployment rate for engineers is above the national average." I'm wondering if raising wages might attract the "needed" workers from domestic sources or is Gate's request "necessary to remain competitive and innovative"."
Cashing in on ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3)
I've reread that link several times, and I still can't figure out just who bought who there. It makes for a fascinating (if somewhat poorly written) little story of "You kiss my ass, I'll kiss yours."
Nothing new to see here, move along, move along, Consumer.
SB
Offshoring / H1B killed me .... (Score:5, Insightful)
The current method of providing a 1/2 page job advertisement with impossible skill requirments just to qualify an already know offshore worker is unethical and should be made illegal.
Those job ads are easy to spot since they are much larger than other ads and they have 2 or 5 impossible skills only a few hundred people have.
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Funny)
Just give him a few chickens [worldwiderant.com] and he'll be happy.
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:5, Funny)
Do you have a source for that number? The market sucks here in Canada, but I don't think it's that bad.
If it is, Perhaps I should shave more often and start showing up on time
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Informative)
Good luck with your search.
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm making 38k a year in the SF Bay Area, single with no real debt and can't afford a condo or even a car (male under 25 insurance rates are through the roof+gas+tolls+parking+inevitable tickets)
At 35k in Canada I'm sure you're living more comfortably
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I do feel bad for the talented and/or hardworking ones who got taken for ride after ride with startups...
But face it, there are foreign workers willing to work harder for less money; tech workers in the US are generally spoiled IMO (with many exceptions)... In '89 you could be virtually ensured $50k/yr with a MSCE.
The market's adjusting, and foreign labor is generally cheaper now.
I say let the genuinely talented or hard working into the US and give 'em a green card. I think it would make our country a better place (though defining 'talented or hardworking' would be tough).
(I don't limit the above opinion to tech workers... construction, engineering, professor, janitor, cabbie, whatever).
The US immigrant policies have really bad problems; politicians get votes if they're 'tough on immigrants'... they get $ if they're 'ignoring the illegal immigrant problem.'
It's a two faced, dishonest system at the moment... immigrants can get in and when their visa expires noone looks for them... if they get pulled over for speeding (after paying 10 years of social security and other taxes), they're deported without a chance to return.
Businesses are pushing for cheap labor, and citizens are generally pushing for less competition for jobs... the immigrants get caught in the middle
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Hell, he might just park a boat out there himself and run his own outsourcing outfit.
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Insightful)
You are right that he onlywants to save money, though. He can get guest workers on visas to work for minimum wage and no benefits, the robber baron! There is no shortage of American high-tech workers. We just want to be paid a fair share for what we create, not be exploited like slaves.
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:5, Insightful)
This has nothing to do with finding the best employees and everything to do with finding the cheapest employees.
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The only question is, do you want to compete with foreign workers inside the US [surriel.com], or would you prefer to compete with them in India? Surely competing with them inside the US should be a lot easier, since this is your home country...
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cashing in on ... (Score:4, Informative)
According to payscale.com, the California average is $70,000, and the Washington state average is $65,000. I think the American Electronics Association's survey is seriously wrong. They also claim that the California average is almost $20k higher than everybody else's estimates.
I don't buy it.
Re:$181,700 average?? (Score:4, Insightful)
On the other hand you could ask why 5% of the population is paying itself millions of dollars and creating this false average value. But that would be "communism" and that is as we all know a bad thing.
I say that whatever king Bill says is law, its for the econonmy stupid, for freedom and free trade. All you whining middle class workers just have to face economic reality - you are worth nothing. What the economy needs is cheap labour from abroard and if King Bill cant have it then all of your jobs will have to be outsourced to India - thats the real agenda here.
In a way he has a point, if his business wants to compete and remain the most profitable software company in the world then he has to use the cheapest workforce he can find. Sadly that means that the US i.t. worker can look forward to a future of declining saleries and job opportunities. As people often point out the US economy is the most sucessful in the world and has achieved this status by lightly regulated raw capitalism.
Its time that IT workers retrained as telephone sanitisers, hairdressers and middle management executives (burger flippers). After all thats what happened to the steel workers, ship builders, coal miners, semiconductor fab workers, Car workers, metal workers, electronics assemblers.
Whats so special about your job that it cant be exported to the third world like all the others?
Re:$181,700 average?? (Score:4, Informative)
And to put this in the context of the article and Mr. Gates' comments, we can either bring the workers here (and have the benifits of taxing them and having an educated population) or we can send the work there. Either way, it's a global marketplace for labor and we can compete, or become obsolete.
Gates Request.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:4, Insightful)
The practice is called "in-sourcing", and I've seen it in a number of computing environments.
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's put it this way.
Isn't it funny that even Billgatus of Borg can't convince the Administration to let in another 100,000 engineers (be they from India or Canada) to get paid and pay Social Security and income taxes on incomes between $30-50K, but nobody blinks an eye at letting in millions of workers (mostly from Mexico) to get paid $3.00/hour washing dishes and pay no tax because they're here illegally or because their incomes are very low, despite consuming tax dollars in the form of health and education costs for their families?
I'm all for immigration -- but is it too much to ask of immigration policymakers that we import the sort of people who will be net contributors to the economy, rather than a net drain thereon?
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Many Indian and Canadian guest workers are sending just that much more money back overseas to their families instead of spending it here.
There are also illegal immigrant white collar workers (like a Canadian I met) who get paid under the table at good jobs the states, thereby avoiding even more taxes than the $3/hour people.
It's a two way street and it's not always simple.
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:5, Interesting)
The Dubya regime has bent over backwards to facilitate employer hiring of illegal aliens. The net result is employers get really cheap labor, and the US taxpayers are subsidizing these employers. There isn't much money that these employers can kick into SS and Medicare for these illegal aliens, because they aren't really "here", and they aren't getting minimum wage. But a lot of states under financial pressure from the Feds "unfunded mandates" has brought their public health departments to the brink of bankruptcy.
I am all for immigration -- legal immigration, only. Depending upon which official is asked (and how politically correct) the number of illegal aliens in the USA is somewhere between 12 and 28 million. And while millions of illegal aliens slip across our borders, they are breaking our laws (sometimes with what they bring with them). In the mean time, persons seeking legal immigration into the USA are forced to wait years (and sometimes a decade or more) for their chance to emmigrate here.
Illegal aliens do not pass through a modern Ellis Island, and the rates of pneumonia, TB, and other diseases have skyrocketed in all the border states, as well as any jurisdiction where illegals congregate. The only way these illegal aliens can remain in the USA undetected is through identity theft and bogus identification. There is no way that Dubya or the DHS can assure the real American citizens that violent criminals, drug pushers, agents/sappers of foreign governments, or terrorists are not among those that slip across our borders.
The ever increasing clammor amongst politicians and employers for more cheaper labor reminds me of the rationale used to justify slavery in this country 150 years ago. IMHO, the Republican Party has long ago fallen from the grace they achieved in their opposition to slavery. The more politically correct term these days is "wage-slavery", and it is alive and well. How many people today don't have (and cannot afford) health insurance, let alone having both parents working only to just barely get by? Nearly all those things most necessary for survival and betterment in the USA do not get counted in the CPI (Consumer Price Index) -- things like health care, housing, heating, and higher education have been increasing at nearly double digit rates. When was the last time that the minimum wage went up, let alone at a rate that actually keeps up with the real rate of inflation?
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of moderating your post, I'll respond.
MANY Mexican illegals have fake SSNs and pay all those taxes you think they don't. And many don't get returns or anything. A recent article in the NY Times was title, "Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions [nytimes.com]" and that all future IRS and government income assumes that these numbers will continue to rise.
Second, it's IMPOSSIBLE to close off or secure the border with Mexico, while it's much easier to check people at airports.
Another, many Americans go to college and seek those IT jobs. People aren't flocking to work those fields in Idaho, do construction around Las Vegas, etc. North Carolina is growing in population largely to the illegals and the state's economy is seeing the effects.
And they don't work for $3/hr. sure, some do. I had friends working for $4/hr for 12 hours a day for a while. but that was 10 years ago and non-taxed. But I'm working illegally for $7/hr (fast-food cashier). All on the books, and the Federal and States are getting a piece. And I know others doing the same.
I think the immigration policy seriously needs to be looked into. But there are so many ideological blow hards (on various sides of the spectrum) that changes are taking way too long.
Personally, on some level, I'd be happy with a change since I'm seeking a software engineering job and need sponsorship. But I don't think it needs to be increased. If companies start leaving the US to be based elsewhere, then maybe..
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:4, Insightful)
you approach the issue logically and calmly, as if what you are doing is OK and justified. You approach it as if you should get all of the benefits of someone who is here LEGALLY - you want SS benefits, you want the benefits of our economy and political system.
So what's the big deal? What's the problem with taking a job from an american (even if it is in the fast food industry)? So what's the problem with using the SSN of an american? ... with entering a country illegally? ... with commiting identity theft?
Just because you don't know the name of the person you stole the SSN from doesnt make it right. It doesn't change what it does to that person. It doesn't change the effects it has on their credit and on their lives.
Millions of people every year get their identity stolen and it costs them thousands of dollars, and sometimes years worth of their time. The loss you've already caused to the person you stole the SSN from more than offsets the (minuscule) contribution you've made in taxes.
The fact is illegal immigrants are a drain on the american system and that includes YOU. What you are doing is a slap in the face to every legal immigrant who has gone through the process to come here legally.
You ignore our border; you ignore our laws -- GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR COUNTRY! (you're welcome back when you get your green card)
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:4, Informative)
I am not legally allowed to work, but that doesn't mean I'm not legally allowed to be here. My legal situation is more complex than can be summerized easily in a slashdot post.
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:3, Informative)
None of the stories held up to any scrutiny.
The Minutemen are nothing but a glorified neighborhood watch. It's no different than if I spotted someone climbing over the neighbor's fence and called the police. They (Minutemen) don't detain or arrest anyone. They just spot some border crossers and call the border patrol.
Oh, and carrying a firearm (exposed) in Arizona i
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:3, Interesting)
*sigh*
Do you really think we would have an open border if super-cheap labor was *draining* the economy?
It is because, with a naive surface examination such as yours, it looks like "them damn immigrants are just SUCKING THE LIFE OUT OF AMERICA!!!" that policy makers pretend to be doing anything about it at all.
No. They really aren't sucking our lifeblood. In fact, they are part of the reason our economy works at all. If we suddenly started to enforce all the laws current
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:5, Insightful)
When was the last time you even got to know about how foreign workers on H1-Bs are employed and paid. I get tired of this typically ignorant bullshit everytime the foreign workers issue comes up. FYI, everytime a visa is granted, the applicant/employer has to get a prevailing wage certificate either from the state EDD or agencies like www.erieri.com, whoch cost about $350-$450 for a single page with three lines of typed text. These certificates state the prevailing wage for the position for which the employer wants to hire, which includes the min, median and max. The data for that is calculated every year or every other year, depending on the survey by polling employers for specific geographical areas. The applicant/employer then HAS to pay the foreign worker at least 5% more than the minimum in the certificate. Without this the application for a visa will not even get accepted. Get your fucking facts straight before you go off on the $20,000 salary.
Moreover the very same foreign worker has to pay social security, income and FICA taxes which he will probably never get to use. H1-B terms are a max of six years (extensible under very special circumstances) and AFAIK, to collect on social security foreign workers need to have paid taxes for at least 10 years in the US. At least they come in legally and contribute to the society that provides them the opportunity, inspite of the fact that the american (for that matter most western) immigration processes are quite demeaning to most third world applicants, not to mention stupid and farcical. It considers every application an application for immigration and then they have to walk in to the interview and convince the colsulate that they dont want to immigrate (wtf!!!).
People like you seem to like globalization only as long as it profits your fat asses at the expense of some third world or developing country. The moment it threatens you, you whine. Capitalism/free markets are a double edged sword, they can cut off your head just as easily as make a path for you to prosperity. Is it the foreign workers fault that half the country chose a self centered ass whose understanding of free markets and competition are limited to nepotism bordering on corruption? This administration is the reason why you dont have or did not have till recently a job, not the foreign worker. Its called competition, its here to stay and it can only grow more fierce. Learn to live and adapt with it.
Re:Gates Request.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, since I'm not brown skinned I was accepted immediately. Most of these rants on Slashdot seem to be thinly veiled racism.
What kind of engineers? (Score:3, Insightful)
These wouldn't happen to be faux engineers would they? The dime a dozen Ameritrain, cram all you possibly can about pointing and clicking the night before the test Miscrosoft Certified System Engineer's?
Re:What kind of engineers? (Score:3, Funny)
Trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Trouble? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, most of these resumes are crafted to please the ridiculous job descriptions mentioned in an earlier post. What an awful cycle...
Re:Trouble? (Score:5, Interesting)
But on the other hand, the problem is simply that there aren't as many people who are mentally fit for the job.
I pretty much started myself from the nerd view point that programming is easy (and for that matter physics and maths are easy), and everyone even the janitor could do that if they wanted to. Enough years of working with other "programmers" just served to convince me of the exact opposite.
I've watched someone once try every single combination of "*", "&" and nothing on every single variable in a C program, until it stopped crashing. He never could understand pointers, and some 10 years later he still can't.
He moved to Java in the meantime, and it just illustrates that syntactic sugar can only do so much. His utter inability to understand the concept of a pointer still haunts him in Java. E.g., he has honest trouble understanding concepts like internalizing strings, or exactly how much is copied and how much is still modifiable when you pass an object as a parameter to a function.
He's by far not the only one. In fact, the majority of "idiots that know how to pad a resume" are far worse.
I've helped people debug some stupidity like passing an integer variable as a parameter to a function, and expecting that they can just set the parameter to 0 inside the function, to get the variable outside the function set to zero. Then do it again, because the whole "call by value" concept went right above their head.
I've spent hours in a meeting with people who couldn't understand the concept of key-value pairs. I was already in a mood to bash some heads in, after seeing it go around in circles around "but why does that table have only two columns? What if we need a third property?"
Etc.
Basically there just aren't that many people who are even capable of being programmers, and even less who are capable of understanding design or security. If everyone stopped hiring "idiots that know how to pad a resume", some companies just wouldn't have any employees at all.
Which I guess is Bill Gates's point. There _is_ a shortage of people capable of doing the job.
Re:Trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, most of these resumes are crafted to please the ridiculous job descriptions mentioned in an earlier post. What an awful cycle...
This is a good point. A friend of mine recently told me about a coworker who applied for a position he had been doing on a temporary basis for 6 months at that point. Come to find that the HR folk tossed his resume because it didn't contain the right key(buzz) words. It would seem that the buzzword list didn't actually match what the job entailed. After a discussion with the management he resubmitted and got the job.
I've seen it happen many times. Competant but conservative resume's are filtered out, the people with the skills listed cost too much. What's left are the people that know how to game the system.
Not to say they're unqualified, but we're all trying to get a job. That means getting into the interview no matter what it takes.
Re:Trouble? (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe the recruiters are your problem. I've recently been looking for a tech job for the first time.[*] The recruiters I've come into contact with have disappointed me in several ways:
I'm told my experiences are typical, in the tech industry and elsewhere. My dad, a retired department head at a non-tech company, said HR often screened out people for stupid reasons. A few times, he'd been called by someone, learned HR had rejected them without even talking to him, and found they were good candidates.
So the moral of the story is: don't trust your recruiters. At least make them pass you the resumés of everyone, and make them tell you why they screen someone out.
If you do somehow manage to get a good recruiter, hold on to him/her.
[*] - My last one was something I started as a student, so the process wasn't the same.
Re:Trouble? (Score:3, Interesting)
The proof's in the pudding. If your screening process isn't turning out good candidates, then something is wrong with your screening process.
Hiring managers review quite a bit of the resumes that come in the door, and ask recruiters to set up phone screens.
Our recruiters generally don't give filtering interviews or phone screens.
Why are you using recruiters? Seems like you're doing the work and they just make a c
Re:Trouble? (Score:3, Insightful)
There must be plenty of unemployed quality people out there eager for a job. I just don't understand how it can be rough for the recruiters to find them.
Re:Trouble? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Trouble? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's very sad, but most Object Oriented shops that I've seen don't really use subclassing or inheritance for their own classes. I worked at one shop that had 2000 classes at the com.foo.* level, with almost no subclassing... why? Because the build system didn't support directories very well. Their software is installed at 50% of Universities, so you've probably used it.
Refactoring? Sounds nice, but it's frequently seen as a waste of time by the decisio
Re:Trouble? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I'm not actually the OO developer. I'm a sysadmin, observing these actions. My job is usually simpler. System crashes, Business fails.
Management has to be willing to listen, and should have some technical knowledge of the product if they are managing a technical company.
Frequently, the managers has no true understanding of the technical product; and subscribe to some wierd theory that all business process follow the same businesses model (They'll even try to diagram it for you with lines and boxes), therefore they don't see the need to have a technical understanding of their technical business-- there's no difference between a bookstore and a website!
Re:Trouble? (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree that managers need to be more technically cogent of what they managing - a truely good manager takes the feedback and recognizes their own limitation. I can truly say i'm very lucky and my managers are both ex-techs and are also very dedicate to the concept of _management_ - mentoring and growing people, providin
Re:Here's a tip. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think a technical quiz phone screen is a total B.S. way to determine the potential value of an employee. You are attempting to quiz somebody on formulaic stuff most of which can be found in 5-10 minutes online anyway. The real value of an employee comes from skills that cannot be demonstrated in 30 minutes, but rather how they handle complex issues like influencing the attitudes of their coworkers, solving issues that are complex blend of personal relationships and technical problem, whether they have a good sense of when a problem can be solved vs. when it should be left alone.
Quizing people on off the cuff regurgitated technotrivia on the phone is unfortunately easier that really understanding what kind of employee they will be, so it is the path people tend to take. But it isn't the way you get the best employee. It's how you get somebody with a the ability to sound knowledgable on the phone.
Re:Here's a tip. (Score:4, Insightful)
Mod the parent up. So many people and companies say they want smarts but what they really want is a narrowly defined skill set.
To Mr. Gates: there are plenty of smart people out there. They may not have the exact skill set you're looking for so spend some of that cash M$ is hoarding and train them.
Re:Here's a tip. (Score:3, Insightful)
I was interviewing one guy, and asked if he knows Lisp. He didn't. So I handed him a short bit of Lisp code and asked him to make a particular change. I wasn't interested in if he did it right (he didn't), but rather how he handled the situation (very well). I've been working side-by-side with him for years now, and am very happy to do so. Next time I'm interviewing a programmer, I'll do the same thing.
But even there, some basic technical questions can be good for a quick bit of preliminary
Kick 'em while they're down (Score:5, Insightful)
At the moment, engineers are at a low point in terms of their employment prospects and hence their bargaining position. The engineers are at their weakest now, making this the ideal time to strike.
The other part of this is that the wheels of government turn slowly. By the time this is all ironed out, there will likely be an upturn. If BG waits until then to make his request it will be both too late, and the engineers will be stronger again.
Reality Check (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll be blunt: If you are in the industry and don't have a job right now, you either suck, interview poorly, or are trying for positions you aren't qualified for. The industry is hot right now and there are loads of great opportunities.
Too many people came out of the late-90's with inflated egos...
Re:Reality Check (Score:4, Insightful)
The industry is hot *if* you live (or are willing to move) to the right area (and pay exhorbitant real estate prices) *and* you have the right skill set *and* you have the appropriate level of experience (not too much, not too little).
Where are the entry level jobs? Where are the jobs for 50-year-olds who still want to program? Why do kids see the job environment for IT people (and engioneers in general) and decide, "I think I'll study Business"?
While there are certainly some people that fit your description, most of the internet-boom-ITers who weren't any good are now out of the industry. The problems with IT unemployment go far deeper than your "blame the victim" mentality allows you to see.
Here's a clue: Bad things do happen to good people, and your broad brush is grossly unfair.
The pay is going to go somewhere, so keep it here (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The pay is going to go somewhere, so keep it he (Score:3, Insightful)
And I'd rather compete against a guy here making $50K sitting next to me than the same guy over in India making $
Re:The pay is going to go somewhere, so keep it he (Score:5, Insightful)
Entirely untrue. Over $15 billion is sent home to Mexico from US migrants every year - Mexico's 2nd largest source of foreign revenue (behind oil). H1B visa employees virtually invariably have family remaining in the old country and large sums of cash will be wired back home.
There are more than enough skilled, talented tech people in the US to fill all the jobs. There are even enough to replace the slovenly incompetents who blow enough smoke to convince the non-techie managers that they need to stick around. It has been this way for years. Shortly after my position was shipped to Mexico City and I was politely encouraged to leave the building 's CEO gave a speech about how was in dire need of good, qualified tech people. I promptly sent a letter pointing out that I was willing to relocate anywhere in the world, work any shift and reminded them that I had a perfect employment record as a sub-contractor on an project, aced every aptitude/performance test they threw my way and quickly mastered every new system/process they created. My request was ignored, so I could only conclude that 's plea for capable, productive workers was just a smokescreen so they could argue for more H1B workers. Meanwhile dozens of contractors were shown the door while the ex-Xerox salesman who got a friend to make him project manager then promptly declared backups for the mission-critical database to be an unnecessary waste of resources got to pick which 80% were laid off, then collected his bonus for reducing labor expenses.
Re:The pay is going to go somewhere, so keep it he (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The pay is going to go somewhere, so keep it he (Score:3, Insightful)
Why shouldn't engineers from around the world have an equal chance to compete?
I say [gondwanaland.com] let anyone live and work anywhere in the world, and most slashdot commenters should be ashamed.
Re:The pay is going to go somewhere, so keep it he (Score:5, Interesting)
I know in my workplace which has both H1Bs and GC/citizens, the rate of pay is the same. In fact the H1Bs cost the company more because of the immigration and relocation costs. At least for my company I think we'd rather hire locals, but as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it turns out to be very difficult to hire locals - they just aren't up to the snuff. The nice thing about hiring foreign born talent is all the preselection has been done.
The US is about immigration and building a better life for everyone, I think the H1B program should be more focused on turning 'temporary' workers into permanent residents. I think the biggest flaw in the H1B is training all these foreign engineers then kicking them out after 6 years - why not keep them in the country, it just enriches everyone.
The biggest problem comes when H1Bs are treated like revolving door visas - this is where the salary undercut, the excessive overtime (we can fire you and kick you out of the country!) abuses come into play. If you build a future for these people in the country they take part of civics better and are more resistant to employer abuses.
I actually agree (Score:3, Funny)
Call me a conspiracy nut... (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe he wants to import the tech intelligentsia of other countries in order to train them to be be knowledgable in, and advocates of, Microsoft software? Give them a contract that says they'll work in the US for five or ten years, then send them home.
Side benefits including being able to seed developing nations with pro-Microsoft software development houses,
Re:Call me a conspiracy nut... (Score:3, Funny)
What? (Score:3, Funny)
So let me get this straight (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a fairly pro-immigration guy, but in this particular case Bill Gates can fuck himself in the ass with a cactus [planeterik.com].
Re:So let me get this straight (Score:3, Insightful)
Key quote. (Score:5, Insightful)
Translation: "the available labour wants more money than we want to pay."
Longhorn! (Score:5, Funny)
Same old, same old from wealthy business owners (Score:5, Interesting)
Wealthy business owners will always complain that labor isn't cheap enough or plentiful enough. This is just more of the same, and very predictable.
As almost anyone in the software development field can tell you, there is no shortage of software developers. There is, however, a shortage of companies willing to invest in their employees by properly training them. There is also a shortage of companies that advertise open positions with reasonable requirements.
Just hop on over to your favorite job site, and take a peek. "Candidate must have a BS in Computer Science, and 20 years of experience in the following technologies: C, C++, Java, C#, Python, Ruby, Perl, Fortran, SQL, Oracle, DB/2, SQL Server, Informix, stored procedures, COBOL, point-of-sale systems, grocery store management, garbage collection, be willing to travel frequently, and willing to divorce spouse if spouse demands too much time.
Companies can then use the excuse that nobody meets the required qualifications to show the need for more H-1B visas, or worse, offshore outsource the work.
Re:Same old, same old from wealthy business owners (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a good job as an SDE, and my experience is the opposite. My team has been understaffed for months, and we've been aggressively trying to hire people. Very few make it past the phone screen. Half of candidates we phone screen cannot give a convincing answer to "what is the different between a linked list and an array?"
Just hop on over to your favorite job site, and take a peek. "Candidate must have a BS in Computer Science, and 20 years of experience in the following technologies: C, C++, Java, C#, Python, Ruby, Perl, Fortran...
Let me quote my office mate who was phone screening a candidate the other day. "We're not too concerned that you know the exact languages we use, we believe that smart people can pick up our technologies without too much trouble."
I've got sympathy for you if you're out of work. But from where I'm sitting, the software developer shortage is real.
Re:Same old, same old from wealthy business owners (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Same old, same old from wealthy business owners (Score:4, Interesting)
I've never done much in the way of interviews (the one person I interviewed was basically guaranteed the job anyway), but a company I used to work for had a very simple interview process.
Pretty much everybody who made it past HR got a first "interview." This was with our build engineer who sat them down at a preconfigured development machine and they were given an assignment. They were told about this in advance, they were pretty much allowed to pick the time that they came in, but they had to be done by 6:00PM when the build engineer went home. If they wanted to come in at 9:00AM, that was fine. They could bring whatever books they wanted, dress however they wanted, it didn't matter because they weren't going to be meeting with anyone.
The assignment was to create a program in straight C using a pre-built Metrowerks project which would allow the user to enter names and numbers and sort using the names and numbers. The user was given a linked-list data structure to use.
I was constantly amazed at how many people just could not do this. There was one poor guy who came in with a bunch of books and he still couldn't do it--and he spent about 8 hours on the project.
That said, here's a few suggestions, comments, and such.
First, have you considered a recruiter? I will agree that some recruiters aren't worth squat, but there are lots of good ones out there. Sometimes a good recruiter who can understand your needs can help separate the knowledgeable from the resume-padders.
Next, where are you advertising? Throwing a want-ad in the local newspaper may not get you in front of your intended audience. A posting on Dice, Monster, or some other Internet site might be a better place.
Third, consider your real needs. As the parent pointed out, I've seen lots of buzz-words in job advertisements that are not necessary for the position. For example, a company I used to work for advertised for a person with C++ experience. It wasn't necessary for the position, but it would be nice for some possible work that might be done sometime in the future. Needless to say, the candidate was less than pleased when he discovered this. Lots of companies use buzzwords to try to intimidate the posers, but the posers just add the buzzwords to their resume and send it in. Meanwhile, the qualified--and honest--people go "Oh, gee, I've never used Ruby so I guess I won't apply."
Finally, as some others have pointed out, where are you and what are you doing? If you're in Idaho, you may indeed have a problem finding lots of people with intimate knowledge of device-driver development and real-time video encoding. If you were in the Bay Area, you might have an easier time. In other words, your expectations might be unrealistic for the area where your company is. You might consider widening your search area and either relocating or allowing the employee to telecommute.
Some labor demand would help (Score:3, Interesting)
Some work to do (and hence some jobs) would attract many of the out-of-work engineers in the US. If Gates wants to lift restrictions on non-immigrant workers, they must be cheaper than all those domestic engineers out of work?
Translation (Score:3, Insightful)
Why would that be you think?
I suggest you make it illegal for politicians to receive money in your country. You know, as a start. Otherwise you shouldn't be surprised to be handled like cattle.
But this is just my opinion.
No shortage of Tech workers! (Score:5, Interesting)
I know a half dozen types of Unix, but I don't know "X" Unx. Unless I lie and say I know "X" Unix, they won't even look at my resume! And knowing at least half a dozen flavours of Unix, I can probably pick up any reasonable type of Unix in a few weeks.
Or, if you know, say Java, C, Pascal and a few otehr langauges...and they are looking for C++, chances are, you can pick it up in a few weeks.
Companies are looking for too many "exact" matches since they have had the cream of the crop from the Dot-Busts period. Now that those who couldn't get jobs have moved on to something else, they are still too picky in recruiting...so although there is a surplus of techies, they can't find enough people to hire with the "exact" skill set they want. STOOOPPIIIDDDDD!!!!!
ttyl
Farrell
Re:No shortage of Tech workers! (Score:3, Insightful)
Go talk to a CPA, incorporate, and start selling your services on an hourly basis.
Re:Amen. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. Gates is involved big in outsourcing. LINK. (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.h1b.info/ [h1b.info]
Microsoft in November 2002 announced plans to build a half-billion dollar complex in Hyderabad, India. With this new development center, Microsoft can use L-1 visas to displace further US citizen employees and will not be subject to H-1B caps. Other major companies in the US are doing the same. This is why reform is needed across all US visa types and not just for H-1B visas alone. It was through the use of these "special" visas that all of the September 11th terrorists secured admittance to the United States. There is virtually no security or monitoring of these special visa holders.
Re:Yes. Gates is involved big in outsourcing. LINK (Score:4, Insightful)
My point? Even if foreign companies get good enough to compete with US companies, they won't be able to compete on cost as the dollar declines and comes into equilibrium with their currencies.
If you create artificially high supply of workers by enticing foreigners here, then less domestic students will enter computer science courses. Eventually, those foreigners aren't going to want to come here because they'll be able to make just as much money in their own country. Then we'll be double-screwed because we won't be able to get foreign or domestic workers.
Wow (Score:5, Funny)
Outsource to Alaska! (Score:5, Interesting)
We have what I would call an emerging tech state. Even way out here in the Bush, we have DSL and wifi, and have had it for quite some time. We also have favorable government, and many other incentives. Heck, we get a check for about $1,000 just for filling out a form, and no state income taxes. Most places don't have a sales tax, either.
-cp-
President Bush to Liberate Alaska [alaska-freegold.com]
Google has hired away most of MSFT's best talent (Score:3, Interesting)
Outsource Yourself! (Score:5, Interesting)
Take me, for example. I combined some fairly standard academic CS fields (AI, language processing, etc) with Japanese. And, presto, the number of US-based competitors I had for some positions is in the double digits. And English/Japanese bilingual engineers aren't exactly suffering a crush of supply in Japan -- thats why they brought me over here. I probably have email addresses for half of the bilingual natural language researchers in the US, and the most common way people get hired is to start with someone you already know who does it and ask "Say, give me somebody". When the hiring dynamic works like that, you don't have to slice $10k off your salary and work EA-style hours to have a chance at getting the job for 3 years before it gets moved to Bangalore sans you.
We techies can't stay mired in the industrial production mode where we're moderately skilled labor which is essentially fungible. Any tech position which fits that description will see its salary decline asymptotically to nothing, guaranteed. And don't expect the government or unions to protect you like they spent a lot of the last century protecting the guys at the GM plant or in textiles (by the way, any time you think you've got it rough, take a look at those guys) -- the economy is globalizing and you can either get on the train or get crushed by it. There are like fifty zillion different occupational specialties which we just can't bloody find enough people to do -- I know one employer who would throw $80,000 at someone capable of designing a UI in Arabic (and being able to work in the office efficiently) if he could just find that someone.
We're Not All The Same (Score:4, Interesting)
I've worked with enough knuckleheads from both sides of the world to suggest a different source for the problem. What we need is an increase in the average quality of code. If I can pay for an idiot from Bangalore or an idiot from good old USA, and either way there is a 50% chance that the code is going to suck and fail, and a 50% chance that the code will work... barely... but still suck then I'm better of paying for the cheapest idiot. If there were a way that I could guarantee good product then it would be worth almost any price. But a lot of things would have to change for that to happen:
This one time, he's right (Score:5, Insightful)
By maintaining caps on visas, we encourage outsourcing. Here's a logical-extreme thought experiment: we remove all limits on immigration, and every engineer in the world decides to move to the U.S. As a result outsourcing ceases because there are no engineers outside the U.S. to outsource work to.
TFA says "Congress capped the number of non-immigrant visas for skilled professionals [to] ensure more jobs for home-grown tech workers." But the economics don't work that way: by capping visas, they move jobs overseas. I'm cynical enough to believe that was the real intent, since the corporate owners of our politicians want to preserve a healthy outsourcing market.
shortage at what price (Score:5, Interesting)
Bill Gates is right. There is a shortage of labor at the price he'd like to pay. Similarly, there's a shortage of $1/gal gasoline.
The 5.7% figure that is mentioned is the unemployment rate for those in the CS field. This number sounds low but unemployment rates don't convey the employment condition in a particular field because those who change lines of work no longer get counted. For older, unemployed programmers, this is their best option. They no longer count as unemployed programmers but as employed retail store clerks. I know dozens of ex-coworkers who've lost jobs in their 40s and 50s. I've read many posts on slashdot claiming only 2nd rate programmers and engineers are pushed out. Those expressing such opinions seem to think their own skills are of such high quality that they will be spared such a fate. I guarantee each of these ex-coworkers I've referred to entertained similar notions. At this time, no accurate assesment exists of the underemployment problem in the USA.
Electronic circuit design was my first career after college. I watched manufacturing being outsourced in the 80s. By the late 80s, it was clear that the engineering work would also be outsourced. I retooled myself to be a software developer and have been doing that for more than 10 years. Now, the same thing is happening to this line of work.
When these high paying jobs leave the USA, the incomes leave too. People with lower incomes eventually have to consume less. Tough times lie ahead for many Americans.
As a former IT recruiter... (Score:3, Insightful)
There are quite a few H1-B shops (a bunch of them in Edison, NJ particularly) which bring underskilled workers over from India and Africa in droves and stick them on projects to hope that they'll pick their skills up quick enough to perform adequately on their projects before they're fired. Then, once they get a few of these projects under their belts, they can charge just as much as US citizens because they have the experience that college grads who were born here lack.
It used to be that an employee would be brought in at the entry level and allowed to learn and apply the tools of his trade. Nowadays, that seems to be primarily the domain of the immigrant worker.
I spoke recently to a local employer about an entry level position. They wanted a college grad DBA with Visual Basic, Linux, PHP, MySQL, SQL Server, and C++ experience. They were offering a entry rate of $2100 a month and wondering why they had such a hard time filling a position. When I told him to look at what he was looking to pay, he seemed genuinely offended. I'm sure the position will stay open until the next wave of H1s can come through.
What's the Matter Billy Boy? (Score:3, Interesting)
Quality Workforce (Score:3, Interesting)
Yep, so long as they have no pride in their work or any professional ethics, Bill will get them. I've been to university; I've seen the sort of people that apply to MS for work, and the sort that don't.
TWW
Professionals should work for 50k -Steve Balmer (Score:3, Interesting)
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/12/28/st
Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
This is supply and demand folks. If you can't find the supply, then demand less. Don't screw us all by attempting to artificially increase the supply.
Re:Unfortunately, Gates is right (Score:3, Insightful)
If they're getting better offers... (Score:5, Insightful)
What disgusts me about your company is this: You complain about not getting engineers you want, but you aren't willing to pay them what they're worth. It takes years to get the skills you want and constant effort to maintain them. Typical to HR, all you think about is the 40/week the tech puts in, not the other 40/week he's spending keeping his skills up to day. You people have road too far too long on the good graces of 'geeks' who haven't considered that extra job 'work'. People who thought it was fun designing a network topology. Now, there's so much competition for labor that there's not enough uber geeks doing it for love, and you're having to pay up for the expertise you want. To be honest, your companies standards are probably artificially high to create exactly the situation that makes it possible to let more cheap foreign labor in. This isn't some nutball conspiracy either. It's a known fact that during the 90's reports were forged to justify the rapidly increasing the H-1B Visa program.
Put another way, why should you expect to pay less for someone who maintains your most critical IT infrastructure, then for someone maintaining your most critical legal structure? Or Accounting Systems? If you can find competent Lawyers and Accountants, what makes you think you can't find competent Engineers?
Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the reality of it.
Re:If they're getting better offers... (Score:3, Informative)
Especially when you consider that the technological database your Legal, Accounting and manufacturing departments rely upon for their datakeeping is maintained by your IT department
PHBs, indeed.
SB
Re:Unfortunately, Gates is right (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah. Sure. (Score:4, Insightful)
Of the men and women I've worked with in the past 20 years, the one still in CS are the ones who learned to jump from one speciality to another - which means I've done everything from middleware to SMTP agents to device drivers - which makes it really hard to convince an HR person that not having 8 years in Visual C++ isn't a problem.
Yeah, I can see where you'd think there were lots of CS positions going unfilled due to lack of qualified applicants.
Re:Thoughts on the Dropoff in CS (Score:3, Interesting)
Right about my senior year of high school is when all the Indian programmers started taking American jobs.
I realized half way through my first year that there's no point in my doing CS, I despise higher-level mathematics, and I'll not make any significant money anyway.
So I'm switching schools and changing to Psychology, which I at least f
Re:Of course he's seeking technolgy talent.... (Score:3, Informative)
Where were you when the rest of the world was asking you for help?
In Africa, curing Malaria.