China PM Wants to Rule Global Tech With India 1020
GrumpyDeveloper writes "As reported in this Wired story, China's prime minister said Sunday that China and India should work together to dominate the world's tech industry, bringing together Chinese hardware with Indian software.
Good. (Score:5, Funny)
At least, this is what I've heard.
I, for one, welcome our new high-school management retail wage-slave jobs of the future.
Correcting the misconception once again... (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as the current wages for "IT" professionals in India go, they are among the top paid people in the white-collar industry. They can afford to live a lifestyle that may be at the very least considered as upper middle class in most societies.
When most Americans hear about "pennies-per-hour" salaries (which in itself is an exaggeration), software professionals are being exploited as "slave labor" in "sweat shops". This view couldn't be further from the truth.
The truth is that "IT" professionals are being paid princely salaries by Indian standards (similar to how it was during the boom in the Silicon Valley). The cost of living in India is *way* low compared to the US. For comparison, a loaf of bread costs about 10 Indian Rupees or about 25 US cents. A large pizza at Pizza Hut/Dominos would cost about 100-300 INR, which is about 2.00 to 6.00 US Dollars. A low-cost meal in an average fast-food type restaurant would run you about 25 INR or less than 1.00 USD.
That's about all I have to say in this rant. Comparing wages without taking in the cost of living into account is crazy, but I guess it's convenient to ignore making misinformed arguments against "outsourcing" (which the corporations are responsible for, btw and not Indians who're "stealing our jaabs") and dissing Indians for being ready to work at lower wages.
Re:Good. (Score:4, Insightful)
In government, there is corruption and graft, the likes of which would take any American's breath away. This is accepted as "business as usual" by the Indian populace, who see few alternatives. The average Indian citizen has nothing to gain and a lot to lose if they are the "squeaky wheel", so everyone pretty much sits quietly and takes their share of the graft. Because of this situation, Indian infrastructure (roads, wiring, communications) is in a perpetual state of near failure. The areas where this is not the case are private networks where western companies are currently pumping money in and demand a high quality of service for their money. As soon as those funds disappear, the repairs on the redundant power generators, the satellite uplinks (made by western companies) the telecom equipment and redundant trunks (made by western companies) will all fall apart.
Based on my observations, the cultural problems relevant to tech workers revolve around attitudes towards authority and strategies of pedagogy and learning. Further, the two problems are tightly coupled and coupled with the enormous power disparities between cultural groups, which makes the problems even less tractable.
The education problem can be framed as one in which the teachers pour the knowledge that the students need into the student's heads and that's what they get. This "banking" method of teaching has been long discredited for developing creative thinkers (something that American and European educational systems can list among their strengths). If you go into a bookstore in Bangalore, most of what you will find are certification training books. When you talk to outsourcing companies about the team you might be hiring, they list certifications at you and will almost refust to discuss experience.
When you go to India to work with your team, you find that unless you can frame your problem and development approach as a series of strict single-option rules, your rules will not be followed. Rules of the form, "Either (1) or (2), whichever is more readable." will result at best in 100% (1) or 100% (2) and usually neither. When you ask about a shortcoming that you've found in a review or testing, they will ask where the problems are, then wait until you tell them exactly how to fix those problems before making changes. If the problems that you have mentioned are a part of a pattern and you point out other cases of the problem, you will find that only those instances that you specifically pointed out have been changed.
In short, until Indian technology workers start treating software development as a craft, they will only be the equivalent of the "web developer" here in the US. Until the Indian educational system teaches a craft approach to problem solving, Indian software workers are unlikely to have any success at anything other than the simplest and most motonous projects. Until the culture supports asking challenging questions to teachers and team leaders, the educational system and the products of that educational system are unlikely to change in any significant way.
I liked India. I liked most of the Indians I met (the souvenier sellers were not very likeable, except for 10-year old Madhu up there on Chumundi hill in Mysore). But aside from their personal appeal, I needed to build up an honest evaluation of their suitability for use by my employer.
My conclusion after working with them for a year and being overseas for a month of that: If it's trivial detail work that doesn't require any creativity or insight into the underlying design. If the task can be specified up front and is entirely based on widespread standards, the Indian team is perfect and will do a good job.
If, on the other hand, the module is core to the system, if the module requires careful design, if the requirements are poorly understood, if we need to have a lot
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees. It is simply that employees in America have to pay American prices for rent, housing, transportation, food, clothing, education and health care. Corporations have the entire planet to search for qualified and extremely cheap labor.
If American tech workers had the entire world to choose from for sourcing out their necessary purchases for living, they could live cheaper, too. If Joe Techie lives in a country where a gallon of milk is almost $4 and the average cost of a house is $200,000 - how can you expect him to survive on the wages of someone who lives in a country where that would buy five houses?!
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees.
Sure there is. I agree with much of what you have to say, but that is all beside the fact that American workers are unmotivated and incompetent in many cases. The CEO of a company I used to work at had already run three companies into the ground by doing really stupid and greedy things that made him rich but killed the company. The vast majority of workplaces in the U.S. offer no profit sharing or reasonable incentive plan. If you work twice as hard you get paid the same, but are more tired and stressed. American employees lack dedication for a number of really good reasons. They don't benefit when the company does. They may be fired not because they don't work hard but because the company wants to cut corners or outsource. Executives usually have a different health plan and benefits package than the regular employees. Basically, companies don't treat employees very well and don't feel responsible for them in they way many used to. As a result many employees don't care about working hard or well. This is a huge disadvantage compared to some other cultures.
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
Indian worker do not work for substantially less benefit than US workers - the trade issue people are talking about refers to a pure exchange rate problem.
One could even argue that Indian tech workers reap a substantially higher benefit than their US counterparts when you take mean deviation in standard of living into account.
This is exactly why import tariffs were invented, and curiously, this is what you get when you don't use them.
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Americans were confronted with the same situation in the 1980's when the Japanese behemoth swamped American auto and steel production, leading to the "Rust Belt" throughout the American Northeast. America recovered via the IT and telecommunications industries.
We're now confronted with the same scenario as China and India move into IT industry, threatening American businesses and jobs much like the Japanese did in the 1980's.
And now, as in the 1980's, Americans worried about their jobs and their families, as would ANY culture facing the demise of industries. But we CHANGED then, and we'll do the same now.
It's called the process of creative destruction, and American industry will rise again, much like the Phoenix of lore. Contrast that with what Europe attempted by protecting its industries rather than letting them go and you'll see who had the better model.
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm... Yes, there's no way that the USA would ever do anything [bbc.co.uk] like that [bbc.co.uk], is there?
Yeah, contrast that with Europe. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference between then and now is that back then there was an answer. Both auto companies laying off workers and the government stepped in and provided retraining, job search and placement assistance, subsidies for those going to college. There was assistance for those looking for a way to pull themselves out of the rust belt.
Now that its my turn, what am I supposed to do? Nobody has answers, nobody is providing retraining, and the only government assistance I've seen is the unemployment office reminding me that I need to apply to N jobs every week and take the first minimum wage job that accepts me, or they'll cut off my unemployment. College costs are climbing as both federal and state funding for both grants and loans are going downhill. I ended up with a college loan from a private entity since Uncle Sam couldn't afford to let me borrow money from him.
I'm sure America will come through somehow, but this time around it looks like its going to be a very bumpy ride.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
What the fuck happened to American ingenuity, to picking yourself up by your bootstraps, to working hard and making your life better on your own and with your family and friends?
Instead you whine, "what am I supposed to do?" "Nobody is providing retraining." Where is my government assistance? Why can't I borrow more money from the government?
I'm sorry, but it really makes me
American success wasn't just bootstraps (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no evidence that people now work less hard or are any less smart.
Despite the propaganda, there is no evidence there is any shortage of US scientists and engineers. There is a shortage of US science and engineering *careers*.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmm... Lets see: BMW, Volkswagen vs. GM and Ford. Daimler buys Chrysler. The American superiority isn't very clear there. And who's standard of living has been going down and who's has been rising in the last 20 years?
Soon Americans may have to in
I Beg To Differ (Score:5, Insightful)
What are you calling a recovery? The northeastern United States is still poverty-stricken (and I'm not talking about the Coastal areas). Infrastructure is decaying. Many of the region's lesser cities have become the worst minority ghettos in the country. The tech industry never came to the 'Rust Belt,' and it never will.
"America" as a whole will continue to prosper, yes. But each time a Big Change occurs entire regions become scar tissue, forever useless. It is a bit arrogant to consider this model of economics to be superior to any other.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah... Europe must be doing something wrong... I mean hell... look at the value of their currency! It's only TWICE that of the dollar.
I think Europe is a little better off than we are.
Hell they work less too.
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks, but no thanks. Even Adam Smith admitted that while completely unrestricted free trade benefits the economic system as a whole, it can lead to regional economic disasters. He didn't see this as much of a problem because in Smith's time there was no such thing as globalization; nowadays a 'regional economic disaster' could encompass the entire United States. The wealth of the global economy can easily increase while the wealth of the United States, specifically, declines; the health of the system of the whole improves, but that doesn't mean shit to the citizens of the U.S. who no longer have a job.
As a U.S. citizen, I'm really not interested in pissing away my country's economic power to improve the global economy. I'm far more interested in the health of the United States than any nebulous 'greater good'. People who only have the fuzziest grasp of economics seem to think that free trade will automagically improve their specific lot in life, if given time; but Smith never said anything of the sort, a fact that many people are ignorant of, or deliberately ignore, or simply lie about because their particular delusion about what 'free trade' really means is their holy grail.
There is no guarantee that American industry will "rise again". The only guarrantee is that the world economy as a whole will improve in terms of absolute wealth. That doesn't mean that any of that wealth will be distributed regionally to the United States, nor that the U.S. economy won't decline over time. Anyone who thinks otherwise would do with some solid re-education in basic economic theory.
Max
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
No they won't. "Hey, we're getting screwed, and our rights are being pissed away, and we're being offshored and exploited, but golly gee gilly dang, them Dimmocrats wants to make gay marraige compulsory!"
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
One ought, of course, note that America has existed for only a rather short period of History thus far.
In that light, the quoted statement is really just a rather bland observation... unless of course you are so devoid of historical perspective that you think America is somehow special and will not fade like all previous empires.
In times past, the American workforce was something to admire. I don't think that's the case any longer.
That might have had something to do with having non-bombed-to-pieces infrastructure and a greater abundance of non-dead men than its European counter-parts after WW2.
Though I suppose it also might have been one of a host of heroic inimitable virtues that only Americans possess in the world.
Urgh... can't decide whether to be opinionated or ironic.
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Had to keep out that nasty English and German steel, you know.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
BULLSHIT! Its the wealthy that have sold the American workforce out. The poor do not hire people. The poor do not start huge multinational corperations that machine hardware tech and do software developement.
Its the wealthy that pay us, the worker.
The pro
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Not entirely. They drove their wages far above what similar non-unionized labor was getting in this country, and constantly threatened strikes if they didn't get to push it ever-higher. You could say they have a right to try to get what they can. You could also say they should have had some foresight to realize that doing so too many times would lose their jobs. Ultimately, it did.
The problem with striking is that you put the company in a position that it's better in the short term to give in to demands, yet better long term to simply do away with you. Since labor laws in this country forbid firing a striking work force, in general, the result was that jobs moved overseas. You had a lot of companies realizing they had to give in to unions or else go under, but at the same time putting plans in effect to ultimately rid themselves of unionized labor.
Today, after lots of plant closings, the UAW has realized that they need to work together with the company to find solutions that build the business as a whole while maintaining a fair cut for them. Watch the airline shakeout now - the only airlines that are profitable are non-unionized. You think that's a coincidence? Not by a longshot.
That doesn't mean organized labor is inherently bad. But I've got to say that it doesn't have a good name in the US, because of 1) the role it played in killing some US industries earlier than they otherwise would have died, and 2) its ties to organized crime. As I said, neither of those have to go with unionization, but they did here in the US.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
Collective bargaining raised US salaries to absurd levels. Of course companies are going to outsource to other nations to stay alive. The unions shot themselves in the foot and are now crying fowl.
Then how do you explain the outsourcing of IT jobs, which are not unionized? Nobody is holding a gun to the CEO's head and making him or her pay programmers any particular wage.
Re:Good. (Score:4, Insightful)
And I'm not sure what you mean by lazy. I work 80 hour weeks and have racked up enormous quantities of vacation time as I've never taken one. Most people I know are in a similar situation. I suppose you can call that lazy, but... whatever.
See, the idea is that in a capitalist society, everyone competes against everyone else. But a capitalist society has caused prices to increase to the point where workers need a certain wage to survive and thrive in their own country. Other countries, however, not having exactly what you'd call a "capitalist society", don't have a cheaper workforce. By nature of not having a capitalist society, they are able to provide cheaper costs for the capitalists. Go figure.
Really, I don't know what people expect the American worker to do. Are we expected to just start working for 20% of our current salaries, give up our health benefits, 401ks and stock options? If so, when do we get this offer? I've seen PLENTY of people laid off from their tech jobs in favor of foreign labor and none of them were given the option of "cut your salary our lose your job".
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to cut up your post too much, but the above should read "WANT (or even demand) a certain wage" instead of need.
If people were forced to work 90 hours a week at a $7 hourly job to feed themselves they would. If you disagree, well, go without food for a wekk then get back to me.
So what if China wants to dominate anything? What have they EVER done right along these lines? The success they are currently having is because they emulate the West. If they are going to do what they intend, they need to innovate, not imitate.
Since China is primarily a society of followers, I doubt very seriously they'll be able to do anything more than make themselves a player, and then only because of the volume they can introduce.
India, on the other hand, well, I see them as a force. Which is probably why China is so eager to steal from... ahem work with them.
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
According to every stat I've seen Americans are some of the hardest working people on earth. Maybe we work too hard based on our lack of vacations, crazed schedules, and heart disease.
Re:Good. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's more like most-working rather than hardest-working. If you compare productivity on an hourly basis, the EU is on par with America. They just take month-long summer vacations and have a lot more time off during the rest of the year. I think the numbers were around ~70% of the hours worked and ~68% of the producitivity per capita of the USA.
We do have a lot more stuff and bigger houses than the people on the
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
Max
Great (Score:4, Funny)
Not so far from the truth (Score:5, Insightful)
It's all about cheap labor, and if you think it's "Us" (the US and the West) vs. "Them" (China, India, etc.) then you have bought into the lie that the ruling class uses to keep control.
Good on them (Score:3, Insightful)
India has gained global repute as a hub of software professionals while China is strong on computer hardware. Both countries' cheap and plentiful labor has undercut the tech industry in America and other Western countries through outsourcing.
Seems as if they're trading on the principle of 'comparative' advantage, something that makes perfect sense. Software in India, hardware in China. Now, I understand that we're going to see some misguided anti-Globalisation backlash on this site. Overall, firms will then get lower prices for their tech products. Everybody will win from this.
Re:Good on them (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you are emloyed in America, making software or hardware for a living.
Please inform the masses on Slashdot how lowering the standard of living for those in say - America, Britain and elsewhere - is a winning situation.
Re:Good on them (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard, on Slashdot no less, of Americans outsourcing their own work to India, pocketing the difference and spending their time at the desk learning. Specialization of labor has always worked, and may even be the reason we are where we are now [economist.com].
Re:Good on them (Score:3, Insightful)
Than what countries? Let me remind you that India has got one of the best IT University degrees in the world. Was this really an educated comment?
As such, their occupational mobility is higher.
How is the educational level linked to the occupational mobility?
Re:Good on them (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally I am just waiting for the US to announce that some such alliance poses a threa
Re:Good on them (Score:3)
Then the whole human race has got it coming. There's nothing that can't ultimately be automated, particularly not given the present improvement rate in technology. Writing fiction will probably be the last to go.
China and India are competitive now because they have skilled but dirt-cheap labor. When their labor is no longer dirt-cheap, they won't be so competitive. But that's going to re
What happened in the auto industry (Score:4, Informative)
The US manufacturers have steadily lost market share [detnews.com]. Toyota passed Ford to become the #2 automaker (based on worldwide sales) and is steadily gaining on GM for #1. Further Toyota is about to pass Chrysler in the US market (~11% vs ~12% market share respectively) Chrysler nearly went bankrupt and was eventually bought by Daimler-Benz. Lexus (Toyota again) passed Cadillac and Lincoln to become the #1 selling luxury car brand in the US. US automakers sell nearly every small/compact car for a loss because of inefficient manufacuturing and high labor/pension costs. Toyota and Honda are leading the charge into hybrid automobiles, well ahead of US auto firms. Hybrids are very likely to be the next dominant technology in autos. The light auto segment the US manufacturers have held onto is pickups/SUVs that have accounted for the majority of their profits in recent years, and they are starting to lose their death grip on that segment too. Recent gas prices won't help SUV sales [bloomberg.com] either.
While I'm painting a bit more bleak picture than it actually is for Ford and GM but if you think nothing happened in the industry due to the Japanese, you simply don't understand the industry. I wouldn't say the Japanese or US manufacturers dominate (no one does) but I can say that Japanese automakers have had a HUGE impact on the industry, largely at the expense of the US manufacturers. Most of the recent innovations in manufacturing processes (Just-in-time, lean manufacuturing, etc) were pioneered by Japanese manufacturers. I'm a manufacturing operations engineer and I've been to and conducted statstical analysis of plants for most of the big auto companies and the Japanese simply are better manufacturers overall. You don't even have to take my word for it, there is plenty of evidence out there to support me. But I've been there and I can tell you that Ford & GM are playing catch up. The reason they haven't lost (read gone-bankrupt/aquired) is that auto manufacuturing isn't strictly a price game. Styling, dealer/sales networks, and historical buying preferences matter. And the US manufacturers aren't complete incompetents. But if it were strictly a matter of price/performance GM and Ford would already be gone.
Re:Good on them (Score:5, Insightful)
Please inform the masses on Slashdot how lowering the standard of living for those in say - America, Britain and elsewhere - is a winning situation.
As slashdotters are so fond of saying in P2P stories - your business plan is flawed and its not up to us to sustain it for you. You arent entitled to that higher standard of living, and if someone can undercut you then you need to compete in different ways, add value to YOUR version of the product, entice customers to buy from you rather than the cheaper alternative.
Thats all fine and dandy but (Score:3, Informative)
I have no problems competing with industries half way around the world if its fair. IMHO tariffs should be place on any goods coming in from other countries that don't meet our same standards. If at the end their products are still cheaper then i'll agree we have to revise our business practices.
Re:Thats all fine and dandy but (Score:3)
This is why most of the EU, Britian, Canada, USA, etc have labour laws. Essentially to prevent a form of slavery. Even so, it doesn't work very well, as you will notice if you look at the division of money in most countries.
Make no mistake, it is not YOUR quality of living that is going up by having these companies in your country. It's just that the higher ups make more money than they do now. You
Re:Thats all fine and dandy but (Score:3)
The environmental laws exist because it was determined they were necessary. The fact that other countries don't follow them is a failure of policy by the government, and the fact that we CONTINUE to do business with such countries an even bigger failure.
The US is perfectly within it's rights to insist on a certain amount of equity when trading with other countries. Failing this allows them to keep prices down, and hurts competit
Re:Thats all fine and dandy but (Score:3, Insightful)
If they are necessary then, by definition, everyone will follow suit or die.
The US is perfectly within it's rights to insist on a certain amount of equity when trading with other countries.
You have equity. If you don't want shoes made by semi-slave labour in environmentally destructive factories, then don't buy them. Buy shoes from US factories at the price you'd be paying for the imported ones if the exporting country ran to
Re:Thats all fine and dandy but (Score:3, Insightful)
>>determined they were necessary.
>If they are necessary then, by definition,
>everyone will follow suit or die.
What a silly idea! There is obviously a cost to exploiting or degrading (pollution) the environment. It may manifest itself in flooding (deforestation), decreased productivity from health problems (pollution), liability from lax controls resulting in damages (see: Bhopal), etc. At the same time, none of these things are going to caus
Re:Good on them (Score:4, Insightful)
If you imagine you can live high off the hog just because people will pay you a great deal of money to do what can be done as well and cheaper by someone else, then you doomed, whether `you' are an individual worker or a corporation.
"Everybody" my ass! (Score:3, Insightful)
* Good jobs for those displaced by cheaper nations
* Vibrant middle class
If it by chance worked out that way in the PAST, we were lucky. But the theory does not mathematically guarentee the above. If you say otherwise, please show me the study.
It may mean better averages, but averages don't mean much for those stepped on. Do we cut the legs off of one in ten so that nine can have bigger cars? That seems to be what we are doing, figuratively.
Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, the border agreement India and China announced today seems like a terrific step forward. I'm surprised it's not getting more attention. The two biggest countries in the world have been banging heads over that border for decades.
Inevitable (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether or not they succeed at dominating the tech industry is redundant. If they cooperate, even economically, they'd have a lot more say in the world than the either the US or the EU, over time.
Re:Inevitable (Score:5, Insightful)
China and India may pretend to get along as newlyweds but China's support of Pakistan's military is the porn stash in the closet.
Re:Inevitable (Score:3, Informative)
I wish people would stop presenting this as a mutual tiff. The feud stems from the Chinese _invasion_ of India -- large chunks of which they still hold.
First they have to get off the reservations (Score:4, Funny)
Who writes the docs? (Score:5, Funny)
Step 1: You should be opening the box now.
Step 2: Complete assembly is easy for you.
Step C: Begin use Very Fine Device.
Re:Who writes the docs? (Score:3, Funny)
I'm not making this up. Wish I could remember the brand.
Say China , what do you want to do tommorow night? (Score:5, Funny)
they're no dummies (Score:5, Insightful)
China, knowing that by 2030 india is predicted to pass them in population, knows they have to act. Most of China's land mass is worthless, after all (why do you think Tiawan is so important to them?) so they have to position themselves as a solid consumer front.
The problem India/China will face: they'll be *consumers*. Being the biggest consumers has been a major harm to the US economy (trade deficits, etc). For our substantially smaller work force (1/5th-ish), we still produce twice as much as China does (see above CIA link). They need to seriously work on their production per-capita. That, and feeding those folks is already a serious problem. Production, on their end, is not just an industrial issue - its a natural resource issue.
The Western Hemisphere controls the food, and with it...we'll still control the wealth. If the US made some strong ties with South America, we'd retain power with even just 2% of the global population...put 3 billion people in an area that can only make food for 1 billion, and what does supply/demand dictate? It dictates that food prices will skyrocket, and non-food goods will plummet. Watches and games will become trivial, throw-away items (already are), but an apple...an apple will be valuable.
Re:they're no dummies (Score:5, Insightful)
put 3 billion people in an area that can only make food for 1 billion, and what does supply/demand dictate?
War.
Re:they're no dummies (Score:5, Informative)
Think I should point this out. Both India and China are food surplus nations.
Re:they're no dummies (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:they're no dummies (Score:3, Interesting)
Why is their land worthless? Too rocky? They do have a pretty huge amount of coal for energy supplies but I don't know if you mean value of land for farming. Apparently they have enough farmland to be able to export food to the US, given how much pressure some sectors of farming are getting from Chinese imports.
Re:they're no dummies (Score:3, Insightful)
Those food prices are going to skyrocket for people in the food-producing regions just as much as for anyone else. And who will own most of the farms? Not the people working on them, certainly. Why not a corporation based in China?
Someone else here commented that capital is now completely mobile across national boundaries, but labor is not. That's the essence of the situation with which we're now faced.
Brave New World (Score:3, Funny)
Welcome to a Brave New World of Tech Support Hell.
So basically... (Score:4, Interesting)
Am I the only one finding this to be a problem?
You know, there was once an old joke on a comparison of Heaven and Hell based on which nationality did your food, car, laws, lovers, etc. I think we're headed towards the same in IT.
I wonder what the South American FOSS contingent will have to say as time goes by or what influence the hacker high thing will have.
Probably just nationalistic chest beating but it is weird news.
Re:So basically... (Score:3, Funny)
The French are the chefs,
the Italians are the lovers,
the Swiss are the bankers,
the Germans are the mechanics,
and the British are the police.
In Hell:
The British are the chefs,
the Swiss are the lovers,
the Italians are the bankers,
the French are the mechanics,
and the Germans are the police.
Bet this surprises most /.ers (Score:5, Interesting)
About the topic
Could Chinese Hardware & Indian Software be married to produce the World dominating Tech Industry? Is it a mere whimsical dream of the Chinese Premiere or is it a real workable proposition to tilt the balance of the World's technological power base? As the wise sage said "Time will tell"!
Curretly though, the traditional rivals are ready to bury the hatchet over the common border [yahoo.com] they share and also have set a target to raise the bilateral trade to $30bn by 2010 [yahoo.com] from the $13.6bn in the last fiscal. The two countried have signed a dozen agreements [yahoo.com] today, ranging from phytosanitary protocols to more open skies, and China is backing India's bid to the UN Security Council [yahoo.com].
So for the time being, they do seem to be working together to the mutual benefit of the two Asian behemoths. Also, if the friction is diffused the world has one pair of nuclear neighbours to worry about!
Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers (Score:3, Insightful)
You may consider this troll or flamebait, but it's still completely true, and that's what really pisses you off.
Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers (Score:3, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_Carter#Ear
He didn't seem to have used his B.S. in technology all that much. But Carter was by definition one of the finest men in politics. Too bad, thats not the kind of men you want in politics.
sri
Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers (Score:4, Interesting)
People will generally not like a president who presided during bad times, and like a president who presided over good times, regardless of fact or party affiliation.
How long their advantage ? (Score:5, Insightful)
But how long will that last ? Once their workforces see the wealth that they are generating they are going to want a share of it, that is going to lead to demands for higher wages. This has happened before (see Eastern Europe).
Part of the West's wealth relies on an imbalance of income -- ie the West relies on low wages in Africa/Asia to supply them with cheap food/goods/holidays/... This is not to say that things won't change: they will -- there will be an averaging of standards of living; we in the West are going to have to accept a reduction in our standards of living or work much harder for it. This is good in global terms.
Where will the world's workhouse be ? Africa ?
BTW: Anyone remember 20-30 years ago the golden future that was painted for us -- that automation would mean that no one would have to work more than one day a week (or something like that). Whatever happened to that dream ?
Re:How long their advantage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Automation puts people out of work, hell if you are unemployed you don't work any days per week. Not that I'm saying automation is bad, but if you want stuff, you need to work for it. If automation put you out, you change careers.
Re:How long their advantage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
It came true. You can work 1 day a week and have a roof over your head and food on the table. What's that? You don't want to eat cold beans and rice while living in someone else's basement? You want your own house in the suburbs with 2.5 SUVs in the driveway, lots of fancy furnitur
Tibet (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems money is all that matters in the world. So much for the hindus living up to the Srimad-Bhagavad Ghita. =\
Re:Tibet (Score:3, Interesting)
China may not be exploiting the riches, but people have been driven out of their homes, murdered, and tortured. So they should be glad to be part of China? Your vision of what consitutes happiness seems to be very shallow given these people lived in probably more happiness than most of us might ever realise.
Please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood a
In the US, we have some problems... (Score:5, Insightful)
Where I think we really have problems is in our educational system. In the 1970s, most articles in ACM journals were written by Americans. Now relatively few articles are. In the US, we have the top end of the IT food chain covered - by this I mean super creativity, capital for investments, etc. Anyway, it bothers me how few young people that I talk with have any desire what so ever to pursue careers in science and engineering.
-Mark
Re:In the US, we have some problems... (Score:3, Insightful)
China is too top down for this to work (Score:5, Interesting)
is there a market (Score:3, Funny)
Oh no!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
Incoming: 300 alarmist responses about how India and China and the rest of the Asian Tigers are going to own everything / run everything in 10 or 50 years, because they work so much harder than us.
Funny thing. 20 years ago it was the Japanese who were going to "own everything". It's actually funny (in a tragic sort of way) to watch movies from the 80's and early 90's, with their dire predictions of our impending Japanese Overlords. For a good laugh, go rent "Rising Sun" or even the Micheal Keaton comedy "Gung Ho".
In reality, Japan is slowly dragging itself out of a recession which has spanned decades due to the inept bungling of the bureaucratic masterminds who were supposedly going to guide Japan to a peaceful takeover of the world's economy. Heck, I even drive a Honda: it was made in Kentucky.
If you honestly think that China and India are going to surpass the West through the magical power of Central Planning, you haven't been paid much attention for the past 100 years or so.
Incoming: Hundreds of slashdotters raving about how hard Indians and Chinese work in school (quietly ignoring the vast majority who live in rural areas). Big deal. It didn't help the Soviets, did it?
China isn't going to be a frist-world country as long as their central government insists on tightly controlling the most important aspects of their economy. India is better off in this regard, but as an imperfect democracy I see them as a potential ally, not a rival. Indeed, the Bush administration is cozying up to democratic India specifically as a foil to totalitarian China. Smart move.
Most people even on slashdot are profoundly igrnorant of economics. For example, they routinely assume that economics is a zero-sum game. If that were true, we'd still be living in caves.
Flank them (Score:3, Insightful)
#2 Tries Harder (Score:3, Insightful)
The only time to be truly scared (Score:4, Insightful)
There's always going to be people who won't want to buy cheap knock offs - for example, when wrenching on the (old) Harley (the one made in the USA) I want tools that are well made, not some Harbor Freight well at least they're cheap things.
But when Ling Liong Wen Hung Flung Wuong Chang Inc. comes up with the next killer app in conjunction with RamaChandraChakraGuru Enterprises, that's when to upgrade to brown alert.
We may not be cheap, but we are usually the engines of creation. Asia does it cheap, Europe does it with style (or at least with government subsidy) - we tend to do it first and forge ahead...
I should probably elaborate... (Score:5, Interesting)
China's management of the internet ought to give us some idea of what they would do with a monopoly on internet tech.
Re:One word. (Score:5, Interesting)
In the very short term it's great for consumers because prices are low. However, in the medium term, a slew of jobs will be deprecated in non-Indo-Chinese nations as the industries relocate. This will cause all sorts of economic and political headache as people will fight the change with tariffs, stressing the system which will then snap nastily when all local demand will vanish and companies go belly-up. Those folks who have enough foresight will work to develop new industries that provide the higher value required to support "western" wages. So, eventually things will shift again.
This is simply the economic cycle on a global scale instead of many small local ones; when any area gets an advantage, wealth shifts there for a while, but it will eventually shift somewhere else again (maybe South America? who knows...)
Savings are only great, also, if people use those savings to save and hedge against disruptions, not if they use it to buy more expensive luxury items and to improve education to better cope with change.
3 words: "Eat The Rich" (Score:3, Funny)
Sentence 'em all to death by hanging, and then eat their bodies. That way we can all be "consumers" again!
Of course, they would have to be tried in a court of law before being tried. And we may have to change a couple of laws to let us do this.
But it is gonna be SO MUCH FUN to...EAT THE RICH!
Re:new Asian century (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't help but think that it is no coincidence that this is going on at the same time as anti-japanese riots [independent.co.uk] in Japan. Seems like China is pulling out the stops to truly become the dominant Asian power.
Re:It's true (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see if we're all still laughing in 18 months.
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:3, Interesting)
Educational Spending? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see if we're all still laughing in 18 months.
Meanwhile, the US has spent itself into such a massive hole that it can't keep up spending for education. Even colleges have had to turn away students because they've laid off so many staff.
An economy isn't so much based upon money, but on ideas and when there's poor education then the flow of ideas is stunted.
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:3, Insightful)
As you can see, barely half of India is literate. Even in urban areas, it's only 78%. Obviously you don't need an incredibly well-educated general population to be competitive.
They've done something really forward-thinking, which a lot of people deride them for -- they've favor
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sounds like you understand very little of the reasons and methods of educ
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a farce that Toyota while classified as an "import" could boasted that their cars (manufactured in the United States) contained MORE American manufactured components than American branded cars.
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:3)
be glad it is not the other way around.
Just Maybe (Score:3, Insightful)
Is what is good for the USA also good for Microsoft? is what is good for Microsoft good for the USA? Is Microsoft the last great hope for Planet Earth?
;-)
Re:Just Maybe (Score:3, Interesting)
Once that happens Uncle Bill and IBM have them!
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:5, Funny)
Yes there is: in 2010...
Chinese businessman: I'll never buy from Ching Computers again!
Indian businessman: Why not?
Chinese: I called their customer support yesterday, and some guy with a heavy accent starts saying: "Howdy y'all, wassssuuup?"
Indian: No way! They're outsourcing to Americans?? Wow, how low can you go?
Re:Chinese hardware with Indian software? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why do democracies kowtow to a dictatorship? (Score:5, Insightful)
For the same reason that the US is supporting Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - both of which are fundamentalist dictatorships, and the latter a military dictatorship.
Kinda ironic, don't you think?
Ultimately, what goes around comes around.
Re:There is simply no way... (Score:3, Insightful)
Our education system has been screwed over by a mindset in this country that says don't do anything that might make someone feel bad. If a kid is slow at math, it's not because they're slow...the math program must be too difficult! Dumb it down! The SAT scores are low...it's not because the people taking it don't know anything..it must be too difficult. Dumb it down! We te