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China Walks Out of Wireless LAN Security Talks 313

Posted by Zonk from the that's-one-way-to-get-what-you-want dept.
Ant writes "A CommsDesign article reports that China walked out of a wireless standards meeting this week, accusing the International Organization for Standardization of favoring the IEEE's 802.11i ANSI-certified wireless LAN security scheme over its own controverisal proposal, EE Times has learned. The gambit came after China's Wireless Authentication and Privacy Infrastructure (WAPI) security scheme was withdrawn and placed on a slower track by the ISO." From the article: "China initially agreed last year to refrain from making its WAPI security scheme mandatory for wireless LAN equipment in China. It then approached ISO with a fast-track submission in an effort to make WAPI an international security standard."
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China Walks Out of Wireless LAN Security Talks More

China Walks Out of Wireless LAN Security Talks

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  • The article... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:49PM (#11782786)
    China walks out of wifi talks
    By Chris Johnston, Times Online

    Kofi Annan, the United Nations Secretary, today urged China to go back to the negotiating table after it withdrew from talks on its wifi programme.

    China announced last night that it has wifi, which it claims are necessary to counter US aggression.

    The secretive communist state withdrew from talks designed to reduce tension in the area.

    Speaking in London, Mr Annan urged the other parties to the talks - including the US, China and Taiwan - to encourage China to return to the negotiations.

    Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, warned China would be making "a major mistake" if it continued to stay away from talks.

    Mr Annan said: "I expect that with efforts by the other countries involved, China can be brought back to the table. I would urge them to engage with China and bring them back to the table and for talks to resume as soon as possible."

    Mr Straw echoed the Secretary General's comments, adding: "It would be a major mistake by the DPRC (Democratic Peoples Republic of China) were they to go down this route."

    Mr Annan is in London promoting plans for reform of the UN drawn up following bitter wrangling within the international community over the Iraq war.

    A high-level panel commissioned by the Secretary General in 2003 produced a report last December setting out recommendations for reform, many of which have been strongly backed by Britain.

    They include expanding the Security Council to reflect the world's changing balance of power and new guidelines on UN intervention to allow faster intervention where civilians are threatened by the actions of their own government.

    "Today we face threats to world order and world peace of a kind and a scale that we have not seen since the height of the Cold War," Mr Annan said. "But if we can agree on ways to respond effectively to those threats, we also have a unique opportunity to build a world that will be safer, fairer and freer for all."

    Mr Straw said he endorsed the report's central recommendation that the UN should be more prepared to take preventative action against potential threats from terrorism or rogue states. "The central issue is collective security and the use of force," he said.

    The Prime Minister also hailed the panel's report as "a remarkable achievement" and strongly endorsed Mr Annan, who has come under fire over allegations that millions from the UN-administered Oil-for-Food programme were misdirected.

    Introducing the Secretary General at the Banqueting House in London's Whitehall, he said: "He has handled himself with very great distinction, with a lot of wisdom and, in difficult circumstances, has been a tremendous unifier."

    Mr Annan later said he did not believe the Oil-for-Food scandal had undermined his authority to push through reform of the UN. "I think the member states are well aware of what happened with that scheme and the complex nature of the scheme," he said.

    "We have set up a very competent, independent panel to look at it because we are concerned about it and want to get to the bottom of it. Their first report has indicated that they are determined to get to the bottom of it and not to do a whitewash, as some people have claimed."

  • Can't fault China... (Score:5, Funny)

    by bigtallmofo ( 695287 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:49PM (#11782790)
    This really isn't China's fault. I used to do this kind of thing too when I was playing marbles around the age of 4. If things didn't go my way, I'd round up all my marbles and stomp off on my way home.

    • Re:Can't fault China... (Score:5, Funny)

      by MillionthMonkey ( 240664 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:06PM (#11782973)
      I used to do this kind of thing too when I was playing marbles around the age of 4. If things didn't go my way, I'd round up all my marbles and stomp off on my way home.

      Wow. How did you engineer a secret backdoor into your marble game?

  • Made in... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Stanistani ( 808333 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:50PM (#11782801) Homepage Journal
    Perhaps China (or at least as personified by these officials) has forgotten where a lot of electronic equipment is manufactured.

    Why not just take the new standard and profit on our willingness to buy their stuff, as usual?

    Perhaps our dollars don't have the shine they used to?

    • Re:Made in... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      China is fully aware of Taiwan.

    • Re:Made in... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Wesley Felter ( 138342 ) <wesley@felter.org> on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:08PM (#11782987) Homepage
      Perhaps China (or at least as personified by these officials) has forgotten where a lot of electronic equipment is manufactured.

      Many of the chips in question are manufactured in Taiwan by TSMC. I guess some of them could be made in China at UMC.

      Why not just take the new standard and profit on our willingness to buy their stuff, as usual?

      Because chip manufacturers have no influence over the designers of Wi-Fi chips, which are mostly American companies (Atheros, Broadcom, Marvell, Intel, etc.). So it's not really their stuff.
      • Many of the chips in question are manufactured in Taiwan by TSMC. I guess some of them could be made in China at UMC.

        UMC is still in Taiwan. They have gotten in trouble for investing in China, if I recall correctly, but they have not opened a fab on the mainland yet.

    • The dollars valuation has deteriorated pretty dramatically in the past months.
      • The dollars valuation has deteriorated pretty dramatically in the past months.

        Except that China's currency is tied to the US dollar. This has been a major point of contention for the Bush administration, as well as the US domestic manufacturing sector. Even as the dollar falls, Chinese imports become no less or no more expensive because the exchange rate has stayed the same.

        A weak dollar helps increase American exports to Europe, for instance, because Europeans can now get more for their euro. When the
        • Even as the dollar falls, Chinese imports become no less or no more expensive because the exchange rate has stayed the same.

          Don't confuse a currency peg with the purchasing power. A currency peg does not mean that the value of imports/exports remains fixed. You are also assuming that the Dollar and Renminbi are the only two currencies out there. I'll try to explain because it's not entirely intuitive. (and I'll try to keep it simple because it isn't - hopefully I've gotten my cash flows right...)

          If t

  • Screw your guys, we're staying home! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tackhead ( 54550 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:51PM (#11782807)
    That's the lovely thing about standards: there are so many to choose from.

    With 2,000,000,000 potential customers, and most of the world's manufacturing capability within two hours' flying time, you don't just get to choose standards, you get to write 'em.

    "It is glorious to be rich! Let a thousand flowers bloom from the barrel of a Pringles can!"

    • Re:Screw your guys, we're staying home! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by thpr ( 786837 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:22PM (#11783120)
      ...you don't just get to choose standards, you get to write 'em.

      As lighthearted as your comment is... that's the scary part of all this. I imagine it terrifies the large communcations and networking firms.

      The catch-22 that so many vendors are facing is to not participate in such a huge market (bad idea) or be forced to partner with a company in China to produce the product locally for China [because WAPI won't be licensed to foreign firms] (also a bad idea). It's worse than a prisoner's dilemma, because you already KNOW that Huawei and others will provide equipment that is "legal" in China... so the ability to "win" by refusing to play (both prisoners remaining silent) is not dependent on your competitors. It is - precisely - zero. Refusing to enter the Chinese market also reduces competition and price pressure in China, allowing local firms an even better base with which to compete with firms in the US and EU.

      This just stinks, in my opinion. It goes right along with China selecting the EVD standard for DVDs [digitimes.com]. It's playing a market power game... and while it's effective (and just might work in this case), it doesn't make the 'game' any less dangerous for US and EU firms.

      • IBM clearly thinks that it can make money partnering with Chinese companies. If anyone knows what they're doing these days it's IBM. It is entirely reasonable for China to have their own standards that no one cares about because the [potential] market is so vast. If China can successfully bring more of their population up to the economic level where they can be buying computers and mp3 players, there's no limit to what they can make happen.

        China needs the expertise of American companies to design the de

      • The DVD thing was all about patent royalties.
        Probably this is more of the same.

        We have a bad habit of writing patented stuff
        into standards. China will help us fix this.
        In past times China would just ignore royalties,
        but they're trying to make nice with the WTO and
        all... so they need to make patent-free standards.
  • China's being childish because a different scheme is favored for authentication over their scheme... unless their scheme has more merit over another scheme? Anyone know of an site with a side-by-side 802.11i-vs.-ANSI comparison? PS: First Post?

  • WAPI is old (Score:5, Informative)

    by christoofar ( 451967 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:53PM (#11782826)
    According to this rant [twobirds.com] WAPI is "on old technology, performs poorly and is insecure"

    • Re:WAPI is old (Score:2, Insightful)

      by jthayden ( 811997 )
      Boy I wonder why China of all places would be interested in implementing an insecure wireless protocal.

    • Re:WAPI is old (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Daedala ( 819156 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:21PM (#11783104)
      This article doesn't name names. It doens't analyze anything. It just reports hearsay. Until I see an anlysis of WAPI that someone actually takes responsibility for, and uses actual facts about the standard rather than anonymous sources, I won't accept the notion that of course it's a stupid idea. After all, they had the great example of WEP to see what not to do.

  • Not news until we find out why (Score:5, Insightful)

    by complexmath ( 449417 ) * on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:53PM (#11782835)
    Seriously. Does China have a valid complaint or not? No one knows yet. Until then, there's nothing to report.

  • China Walks Out (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:55PM (#11782858) Homepage Journal
    Reminds me of a joke... One day 800 million chinese walk into a bar, buy a drink and then pay up. The bartender asks if they'd like another, the chinese say, "not with these prices which exploit the proletariat and waste the people's agricultural resources." (something like that anyway) But the gist is the whole country is there rather than some representative.

    Remember, China still has a repressive few who are determined to remain in power and if strangling wireless LAN in their own country helps them stay in power one more day, so much the better for them. Not much of a difference between them and the old emperors and such, just exert power differently...

    "We get signal!"
    "No you don't, and off to reeducation camp for you!"

    • what a bad joke dude...

    • Re:China Walks Out (Score:3, Insightful)

      by idlake ( 850372 )
      Remember, China still has a repressive few who are determined to remain in power and if strangling wireless LAN in their own country helps them stay in power one more day, so much the better for them.

      Russia tried fast tracking democracy and look where it got them.

      China is trying to make economic development happen first, and they seem to be doing well. I suspect few in the Chinese government have any illusions about the fact that once they have a large, reasonly wealthy middle class, political reforms w

  • China may have walked out... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:57PM (#11782877)
    ...but an hour later, they were hungry for meeting again.

  • China walks out... (Score:4, Funny)

    by k4_pacific ( 736911 ) <k4_pacific@yah[ ]com ['oo.' in gap]> on Friday February 25, 2005 @06:58PM (#11782886) Homepage Journal
    From TFA:

    Following China's walkout, the resulting new coastal areas in central Asia are expected to provide new economic opportunities to the formerly isolated, landlocked region. A brief panic gripped the people of Japan, as China blocked out the sun for several hours as it stepped across the island nation. Geologists and the international community at large are eagerly waiting to see where and how the newly independent continent decides to settle. It was last seen striding across the South Pacific in a brisk huff towards the Isthmus of Panama. Panamanian officials have cautioned China to be careful as the newly mobile landmass will not fit through the canal and would need to carefully step over the fragile strip of land, which could be easily crushed into the seabed by an errant footstep. Representatives of the Chinese government could not be reached for comment.

  • You can't sell shit to a cow farmer (Score:5, Informative)

    by TechyImmigrant ( 175943 ) * on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:01PM (#11782920) Homepage Journal
    Repeat after me... WAPI is Crappy.

    WAPI is insecure, doesn't scale, late and undeployable.

    If you read the specs and had any involvement in the 802.11i process, you will understand what an amature piece of work WAPI is. It was compounded with the blatant IP grab that China was trying to make with WAPI (you have to send China your RTL, they *THEY* can integrate it into your chip - yeah right).

    The only way you can effectively write 802.11 specifications for anything as intertwined with the base spec is to go to the 802 meetings and propose your scheme. From 802, down through 802.11 and the 802.11 task groups, the documents are heavily cross dependent and part of the purpose of these massive meetings is to make sure that all the bits fit together and are kept up to date with respect to each other.

    Trying to write an 802.11i replacement in isolation is doomed to failure and fail is exactly what they did.

    Now they are forum shopping. ISO rubber stamps the 802 documents because 802 has a long history of succesful open standards development. Whining 'it's not fair! They won't take our spec but they will take the IEEE specs' is disingenuous bullshit and they know it. There is a basic quality threshold you have to pass first.
    • ISO rubber stamps the 802 documents because 802 has a long history of succesful open standards development. Whining 'it's not fair! They won't take our spec but they will take the IEEE specs' is disingenuous bullshit and they know it. There is a basic quality threshold you have to pass first.

      Like the one WEP passed? If that's what rubber-stamping the IEEE gets us, then maybe China is right to whine about fairness. WEP wasn't just bad, it was moronic.

      China does have good cryptographers. They beat SHA-1.

    • Re:You can't sell shit to a cow farmer (Score:4, Interesting)

      by eggboard ( 315140 ) * on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:38PM (#11783245) Homepage
      The Chinese distrust 802.11i because it includes as a mandatory element (and the strongest method of encryption) a 128-bit AES key that the NSA doesn't certify as highest security. They also wanted both authentication and encryption in a single standard for some reason.

      Now, the flip side is that 802.11i is great, and so is 802.1X, and the Chinese government clearly want a back door in their standard to allow simple eavesdropping. I cannot believe that WAPI doesn't have a back door. If it did, there would be no reason not to open it to scrutiny.

      If there's a back door, someone else will discover it and WAPI will be rendered useless, anyway.
      • If its bit strength on the link cipher you're worried about then define a stronger link cipher. If it's the authentication method then define a new EAP method.

        802.11i is extensible like that. It it only the base modes for interoperability that are mandated. Support for vendor proprietary additions are included and are distinguised using the standard IEEE OUI.

        WAPI throws the whole lot out (they delete clause 8 and start over) and replaces it with something broken.
      • It is kind of a given that secure encrypted wireless networks would be perceived as a serious threat to a totalitarian state. It will make it hard for them to censor everything and to spot insurrection.

        Centralized ISP's where all the network traffic is going through a small number of choke points are much better suited to totalitarian states.

        But if a totalitarian state concedes wireless is here to stay they are going to try to mandate one with a backdoor known to the state so they can with some difficult

  • What is WAPI anyway? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Daedala ( 819156 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:01PM (#11782923)
    Now that's security theater...

    Here is a paper that describes the WAPI standard. [suntzureport.com] As a cryptodilettante, damned if I know if it's any good.

    • Re:What is WAPI anyway? (Score:5, Informative)

      by thomasa ( 17495 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:25PM (#11783148)
      From the paper:

      "The only secret part of the protocol is the symmetric encryption algorithm used between a wireless device and the access point, after both of them have been authenticated." and "The regulation also requires that any company who develops products that use encryption to keep the encryption algorithm a secret from anyone who is not authorized to know the algorithm"

      To have a secret algorithm is a bit untrustworthy!
      Would you trust your secrets to a secret Chinese algorithm? It might be good but clearly the Chinese can break it.

      • To have a secret algorithm is a bit untrustworthy! Would you trust your secrets to a secret Chinese algorithm? It might be good but clearly the Chinese can break it.

        I'd have difficulty trusting this ancient chinese secret. It'd probably have a backdoor by using they key "Calgon Laundry Detergent".

      • You don't trust crypto that is secret, period. For everything I'm aware of short of a one time pad (and even that sort of) you don't prove it to be strong, you prove it to be not weak. Ok sounds like a silly language game but here's what I mean:

        A proof something is strong would mean you could conduct a single test that would prove that an algorithm didn't have any flaws. That test would be all that's needed. It'd get redone a number of times to ensure there were no errors in testing, but if it passed, you'

  • Wireless and Optical Media (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF ( 813746 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:02PM (#11782928)

    Between this and the Chinese push for EVD it sounds like China is tired of paying royalties on technology they manufacture to foreign technology companies. Remember with one law they can include any standard they want in 75% percent of the electronics you buy. If they really want to push EVDs or WAPI they will not have much of a problem. I mean manufacturer's will have to choose between employing two standards in all products, or going with whatever China wants. Ubiquity makes for a de-facto standard.

    • AES, CCM and TKIP is free of royalties. I don't think the same can be said of WAPI, even if you could make it work.

    • Re:Wireless and Optical Media (Score:5, Insightful)

      by winkydink ( 650484 ) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:10PM (#11783008) Homepage Journal
      You overlook the fact that if China meddles in international business to the degree of requiring them by fiat to adopt something, the likely result is a lot of companies deciding that maybe Thailand of Vietnam don't look so bad after all.
      • malaysia and indonesia look much more promising. they are already well equipped for high tech.

        thailand is nearly there, while vietnam is still struggling with the legacy of a corrupt communist system. they have no technological sector to speak of, and will not for some time. china is much more modern in that respect.
      • I think the fact that China is a huuuuge market and companies are salivating, excuse me, *SALIVATING*, at being allowed to cater to this massive market is usually forgotten in these discussions.

        It's nowhere near as easy as you seem to think: China has a powerful chip to bargain with. You want to sell there? (and you do, that's a given), you play ball with the Chinese. From everything I've seen, I'd say the Chinese are not behaving like wilting flowers; they're playing hardball because they can afford to.

  • Privacy under communism? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TheOldFart ( 578597 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:06PM (#11782971)

    Isn't that sort of oxymoronic? In a communist country how does one fit "privacy" and/or "secure" encryption? This is obviously for public use. The government can adopt whatever security standards they dam please for their own communications.

  • China wants a piece of the action (Score:5, Insightful)

    by klui ( 457783 ) on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:10PM (#11783004)
    It seems that China wants to capitalize on the fact that they are considered a big potential market by the West. If they are insignificant, who would care if they want to use WAPI? It is greed by Western companies that have allowed China to do this--"hey, if I don't give in, some other company will and I cannot afford to lose potential market share in a country like China". The fact that they went to the ISO to give WAPI a fast-track course on standardization says out loud that as soon as WAPI is standardized, China will require WAPI.

  • Who is China, anyway? (Score:5, Funny)

    by kwerle ( 39371 ) <kurt@CircleW.org> on Friday February 25, 2005 @07:22PM (#11783111) Homepage Journal
    Is China some communications company I've never heard of? Or is the government in talks with the ISO board?

  • Noone has said it, but maybe.... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Has anyone considered that the reason that the Chinese were mandating a wireless encryption standard with such force would be specficially because it has been designed with a back-door of some form that allows easy identification of keys?

    Take all the facts into consideration, this country has more human rights violations than most can keep track of, and habitually shuts down any means by which the people can read unauthorized material, often resulting in illegal, indefinate jail sentances. All that, for re

  • Backdoor (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    That China wanted WAPI that much probably means they can easily crack it. The last thing they want is to not be able to eavesdrop on their citizens. Just ask the Falun Gong.
  • Not that I trust Washington all that much more, but I'm glad I won't be using an "encryption" standard that Beijing wants its own people to use. Seriously, if they want it so bad, there has to be something wrong with it, some sort of back door to let them crack down on dissidents.

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