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Politics Government

New Bin Laden Tape Surfaces 482

Posted by michael from the bullseye-on-his-back dept.
An anonymous submitter writes "Osama bin Laden delivered a new videotaped message in which he told Americans their security does not depend on the president they elect, but on U.S. policy. 'Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda.'"
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New Bin Laden Tape Surfaces More

New Bin Laden Tape Surfaces

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  • Ruh roh. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by numbski ( 515011 ) *
    Uh....

    I know there was no official announcement, but the generalized concensus was that this guy was dead. All of that bombing out in the moutains, they won't say he's dead because they didn't find a body, but then, all they could find were body *parts*, and no DNA to compare it against.

    This kinda screws up a WHOLE lotta thoughts of security in the middle east. Were not even going to talk about the good/bad/ugly that is Iraq.
    • the generalized concensus was that this guy was dead

      Do we know how long ago it was recorded? If he mentions Kerry, I suppose it's probably not that old. Are there any other clues, such as mention of recent events?

      Does anyone have a complete transcript? I'm kind of curious how skewed his version of reality is.

      -jim

      • Re: Ruh roh. (Score:4, Informative)

        by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @02:18AM (#10670639)


        > Do we know how long ago it was recorded? If he mentions Kerry, I suppose it's probably not that old. Are there any other clues, such as mention of recent events?

        Mention of 1000 US dead in Iraq puts it within the last couple of months.

    • Re:Ruh roh. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by tzanger ( 1575 )
      I don't think anyone outside of US/UK thought this guy was dead, and even with the US/UK that was just wishful thinking... you spend a pile of money to achieve something and surely you must have achieved it, right boys? Where are you getting your info?

    • Re:Ruh roh. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by EinarH ( 583836 )

      I know there was no official announcement, but the generalized concensus was that this guy was dead.

      Uhh.. no. That was only the generalized concensus in some conservative/republican circles. Like the Bush administration or The Weekly Standard or Little Green Footbaals.
      You see, when people want something reeeeaaalll bad that tends to screw their critical thinking on the subject. They read things out of events the way they see it so that everything fits into the picture of the world. Most people want bin

      • I certainly believed he was dead, and I am definatly not in the "conservative/republican circle". I'm pretty certain lots of people of all political persuasions believed he was dead.

        Though I'm starting to worry I was wrong as nobody has denounced this tape as fake. Still I feel he is gone. If he was around and wanted people to know it, he would prove it more conclusively.
    • but the generalized concensus was that this guy was dead

      Whoa there cowboy, generalized concensus of whom? Everyone I know thinks he is alive.

    • THe people I know always thought he survived. I figured he escaped over the Pakistani border. If he shaved and wore a burka, noone would look twice.
  • As illogical as it seems, this will scare USians into voting Bush/Cheney in this election. I think this is Karl Rove's October surprise and it will have a very distinct impact on the opinion polls across the nation. Unfortunately the impact will almost certainly benefit the Bushites.

    • Re:This is what Bush needed (Score:5, Interesting)

      by andreMA ( 643885 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @09:49PM (#10669436)
      Unfortunately the impact will almost certainly benefit the Bushites.
      Actually given the content of the message, I don't think it'll have much impact except to remind people that bin Laden is still alive in spite of Bush promising to 'get him dead or alive' then later saying 'I'm not that concerned with him'. Folks will naturally wonder if we would have gotten him if Bush didn't detour us into Iraq.
      • This would make sense for someone from outside looking in (ie. me). But I think the true masters of spin in this election is the Bush camp. Maybe the only impact this video is goint to have is to reinforce electorate's decisions and will make no difference to the undecideds.
      • What was detoured? There are more soldiers in the afghan area now than before the Iraq war...
        • The number of soldiers in Afghanistan has never approached the number we've had in Iraq. Had we not (needlessly, in my view) gone into Iraq before finishing what we (appropriately) started in Afghanistan, vastly more troops would have been available.

          Bush had started planning Iraq well before 9/11, as evidenced by some of the reports that leaked about Cheney's energy task force as well as PNAC's policy statements, which Jeb Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolowitz signed off on in the late 1990's. Apparently Geor


      • > Actually given the content of the message, I don't think it'll have much impact except to remind people that bin Laden is still alive in spite of Bush promising to 'get him dead or alive' then later saying 'I'm not that concerned with him'. Folks will naturally wonder if we would have gotten him if Bush didn't detour us into Iraq.

        Most likely it will just reinforce everyone's current political beliefs, and have no impact at all unless the media all spin it the same way.

    • Sure it won't be the other way around? Bush has had how many years to hunt down one man and has failed? He led us into war with a country that was not involved with 9/11 under the guise that a) wmd's and b) most people at the time of our invasion were led to believe that iraq was highly involved in the initial attack (so they didn't come out and say it, they were counting on the ignorance of the american public) instead of focusing on getting bin laden and all his minions.

      why won't voters see this and sa

    • Karl Rove? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I think this is Karl Rove's October surprise and it will have a very distinct impact on the opinion polls across the nation. Unfortunately the impact will almost certainly benefit the Bushites.

      As a part-time tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist, I too wonder about the timing here. CNN are suggesting this was a "Bin Laden October surprise" designed to tip the scales in favour of Kerry.

      Bin Laden talks about how US aggression in the Middle East (e.g., he refers to 1982 US Naval support to the Israeli off

  • Gee.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by GreyWolf3000 ( 468618 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @09:43PM (#10669411) Journal

    Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda.'"

    Let me be the first to breathe a huge sigh of relief.

    • Re:Gee.... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rthille ( 8526 )
      Well, statistically, your security is more in the hands of the idiots at the wheel around you on the road than it ever was in the hands of any terrorists.
      Not to mention that what you put in your mouth and how much exercise probably has much more to do with how long you live.

      Unless of course you are exceedingly unlucky.

      • Not to mention that what you put in your mouth and how much exercise probably has much more to do with how long you live.

        I was beginning to stuff my face with McDonalds as I read it.

  • so, who does Bin Ladin want elected? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Lord Bitman ( 95493 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @09:47PM (#10669429)
    Does he actually want to defeat Bush, or does he know that Bush's approval ratings go up whenever he(Bin Ladin) makes a threat, and so he actually wants Bush elected?
    OR does he know we know he knows, and he actually want Kerry elected?

    Or.. wait a second.. does he know we know he knows we know he knows, and he actually wants Bush elected? DIABOLICAL!
    • He seems to claim he doesn't care, but adds a few digs at Bush. He claims his gripe goes back to the US support of Israel against Lebanon in 1981(?) under Reagan, but seems to assert it's a matter of US support for Israel in general - something pretty bipartisan.

      Funny, I thought his big problem was US presence near holy sites in Saudi Arabia. Damned flip-flopper...

    • Re:so, who does Bin Ladin want elected? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by antv ( 1425 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @10:04PM (#10669502)
      I think bin Laden wants to appeal to, ahem, "undecided" in Middle East. His message is essentially "bad Americans are attacking you", and addressing it to Americans is a political stunt that would allow him to say "see, I tried to make peace with USA - it's all their fault".

      Of course it's easier for bin Laden to deal with the guy who isn't concerned about him, as opposed to the guy who busted BCCI. However, for Al-Quaida, we are a boogeyman that they use to recruit more people. It doesn't really matter who the president is, bin Laden would still call us "the great Satan".

      • Re:so, who does Bin Ladin want elected? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by EnronHaliburton2004 ( 815366 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @12:00PM (#10672703) Homepage Journal
        we are a boogeyman that they use to recruit more people.

        And ironically, Terrorism is the new Boogymam, and is used to support wars, suppress insurgencies and perform big brother actions all over the globe.

        Terrorism is the new Communism.
      • True, the US is his bitch boy so to speak.

        Despite the fact the vehemently disagree with his tactics (he will be caught and killed someday), he does have a point. The US has been doing all sorts of, how shall we say, less than humanitarian, things in the middle east for a few decades now.

        I mean, you saw how we reacted after 9/11. We had the resources and the military to strike back fast and hard.

        Then there's Iraq where we've caused thousands of civilian casualties and destroyed towns and cities. For no ju

    • Re:so, who does Bin Ladin want elected? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The terrorists who did the Spain bombings wrote a letter stating their support for Bush because having Bush's policies would make it easier for them to recruit. Google around for it.

      I don't think there is any point to trying to apply logic and reason to Bin Laden. The terrorists are past that point.

      Yes, USA made a lot of mistakes. We pissed off a 5,000-year-old culture. We let them fester. We let the Taliban grow and even paid them millions of dollars because they reduced drug use. We let them print anti-
      • We let them print anti-american garbage in their textbooks.
        I don't think the content of their textbooks is in our jurisdiction. Somehow, I don't think censoring their speech is going to win us any favors or help the situation at all. Textbooks are hardly the root of the problem.
        • Actually -what is in their "text books" is VERY important. It means the youth is being fed a steady diet of hate mongering - that everything bad in their lives is due to the great Satan. It's very much the same way that Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's ills. Bin Laden blames us for everything wrong in the Middle east instead of looking to their own societies for most of their ills.

      • It is pointless to analyze the political motives of Osama Bin Ladin. Perhaps his claim to end terrorist attacke if the West withdrew from Arab territories is sincere or perhaps it is just a political bluff. The truth of the matter is that neither side is going to admit they're at fault. Both Bush and Kerry are crying the war on terrorism will be won by the US. Osama bin Ladin is doing the same. Basically, leaders on both sides are planning and perpetrating the war and -surprise surprise- the general public
  • Bush had failed Americans with his Middle East policies, deceiving the nation and putting it at risk from further al Qaeda strikes, bin Laden said. The speech was his clearest claim yet of responsibility for the Sept. 11 strikes of 2001.

    Appearing in a video released from hiding to Al Jazeera television four days before the U.S. presidential poll and gesturing with a finger to stress points, he said the Sept. 11 attacks would not have been so severe if Bush had been alert.

    "Despite entering the fourth year

  • Let the candidates speak for themselves... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ConceptJunkie ( 24823 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @09:55PM (#10669461) Homepage Journal
    bin Laben, if it is really him, seems to be trying to set terms for ending the attacks against the U.S. This is irrelevant. At this point, we have no reason to consider anything but his and al Qaeda's total destruction. There is no other safe way to treat enemies so completely without honor. I would suggest that this is how both President Bush and Senator Kerry see it, too.

    From the CNN article:


    Bush told reporters as he was boarding Air Force One for Columbus, Ohio, "Americans will not be intimidated or influenced by an enemy of our country. I'm sure Senator Kerry agrees with this. ... We are at war with these terrorists, and I am confident we will prevail."

    Kerry told reporters in West Palm Beach, Florida: "Let me make it clear -- crystal clear: as Americans, we are absolutely united in our determination to hunt down and destroy Osama bin Laden and the terrorists."

    He added: "They are barbarians. And I will stop at absolutely nothing to hunt down, capture or kill the terrorists wherever they are, whatever it takes. Period."


    The terrorists will not scare the United States as it did Spain, the Phillippines and other countries. I do not believe Kerry would be as effective at this as Bush, but I do believe he will pursue and destroy al Qaeda should he become our President. Anything else sets the precedence to begin the destruction of America.

    I believe that all Americans should unite behind our President, whoever he is in January, to continue and win this war for our security and the security of free people everywhere.

    • Re:Let the candidates speak for themselves... (Score:5, Informative)

      by andreMA ( 643885 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @10:19PM (#10669585)
      The terrorists will not scare the United States as it did Spain
      This is a common misperception. The attack itself had far less impact on the Spanish election than the incumbent party - without evidence - attempting to pin it on the Basque seperatist ETA... to whom the opposition party was seen as somewhat sympathetic.

      The Spanish people were angered at being lied to for political purposes, and it backfired on the liars.

    • Re:Let the candidates speak for themselves... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Yes, but we should also be thinking "are we doing anything today that is planting the seed for the next al Queda?"

      Are we treating oil-rich african countries properly, like for instance Equatorial Guinea? Are the people there getting subverted by militant Islam while we stand by? Are rich multinationals choosing corrupt political leaders? Are we basically giving thousands-year-old culture a little respect AND keeping an eye on our interests?

      I sure hope so. The Iraq war was a terrible mistake but at least i

    • The terrorists will not scare the United States as it did Spain, the Phillippines and other countries

      Well said. Also remember that other countries' security services and spies are actively involved.
    • bin Laben, if it is really him

      it's not.

      (sorry. couldn't resist.)

    • Re:Let the candidates speak for themselves... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by merdark ( 550117 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @03:16AM (#10670796)
      You are already afraid. You are destroying yourself. The terrorrists won't bomb you out of existence, but they WILL frighten you into giving away all your civil liberties.

      Stand up for what America once meant: freedom.

      Vote for who will give you that. Don't believe the propaganda your politicians feed you.
    • I do not believe Kerry would be as effective at this as Bush, but I do believe he will pursue and destroy al Qaeda should he become our President. Anything else sets the precedence to begin the destruction of America.

      The important point here is that we must win the war on terror. 9/11 was an ill advised attack, much like Pearl Harbor - it awoke a sleeping giant. The giant cannot afford to go back to sleep now.

      I believe that all Americans should unite behind our President, whoever he is in January, to
    • The terrorists will not scare the United States as it did Spain, the Phillippines and other countries. I do not believe Kerry would be as effective at this as Bush, but I do believe he will pursue and destroy al Qaeda should he become our President. Anything else sets the precedence to begin the destruction of America.

      Your lack of understanding of the world, is what started the destruction of America.
    • At this point, we have no reason to consider anything but his and al Qaeda's total destruction.

      KILL THEM ALL is not a healthy mindset to have.

      There is no other safe way to treat enemies so completely without honor.

      Seeing as how Al Quaeda's enemy has killed over eleven thousand civilians in a country that had nothing to do with them, destroyed that country's hospitals, sewers, bridges, and museums. Tortured its citizens, etc. I'm curious to know what you consider to be honourable actions.

      Aside from,
  • Just read what the man said. He makes sense. I trust him more than Bush or Kerry. You may say that he murdered 3000 at WTC, but it strikes me that he was at war. Was his war more bogus than our own in Iraq. We have killed 15 THOUSAND innocent civilians in Iraq. Seems like we are the murderous sociopaths, not OBL.

    Here is a good transscipt of the tape:
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story &u=/ap/ 20041029/ap_on_re_mi_ea/bin_laden_tape_16

  • Al Jazeera did not translate one phrase properly (Score:5, Funny)

    by vandelais ( 164490 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @10:24PM (#10669614)
    "Ashlee Simpson and her band of infidels had failed Americans with her Saturday Night Live performance, deceiving the nation and putting it at risk from further al Qaeda strikes", bin Laden said. The speech was his clearest claim yet of responsibility for the Sept. 11 strikes of 2001.
  • Why haven't we caught this guy? Why is he still putting mix tapes out?

  • I wouldn't expect any meaningful media coverage (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 29, 2004 @11:02PM (#10669784)
    of this topic. His request is simple, he's asking the US public to do some self-reflection; to allow a bit of humility, to examine ourselves. It's a fantastic ploy, and I'm sure BL is sincere.

    However, I hardly think for a second that Joe-Six-Pack-Swing-Voter is going to even bother to humor that sort of thinking. This leaves both canidates to ignore the line of argumentation that he has put forth. More than that, no mainstream news paper will dare touch it, for fear of being bashed as "Liberal". This leaves the tabloids.

  • Rough transcript (Score:3, Informative)

    by cow_licker ( 172474 ) * on Friday October 29, 2004 @11:13PM (#10669825)
    "You American people, my speech to you is the best way to avoid another conflict about the war and its reasons and results. I am telling you security is an important pillar of human life. And free people don't let go of their security contrary to Bush's claims that we hate freedom. He should tell us why we didn't hit Sweden for instance. Its known that those who hate freedom don't have dignified souls, like the 19 who were blessed. But we fought you because we are free people, we don't sleep on our oppression. We want to regain the freedom of our Muslim nation as you spill our security, we spill your security.

    I am so surprised by you. Although we are in the fourth year after the events of sept 11, Bush is still practicing distortion and misleading on you, and obscuring the main reasons and therefore the reasons are still existing to repeat what happened before. I will tell you the reasons behind theses incidents.

    I will be honest with you on the moment when the decision was taken to understand. We never thought of hitting the towers. But after we were so fed up, and we saw the oppression of the American Israeli coalition on our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind and the incidents that really touched me directly goes back to 1982 and the following incidents. When the US permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon with the assistance of the 6th fleet. In these hard moments, it occurred to me so many meanings I cant explain but it resulted in a general feeling of rejecting oppression and gave me a hard determination to punish the oppressors. While I was looking at the destroyed towers in Lebanon, it came to my mind to punish the oppressor the same way and destroy towers in the US to get a taste of what they tasted, and quit killing our children and women.

    We didn't find difficulty dealing with Bush and his administration due to the similarity of his regime and the regims in our countries. Whish half of them are ruled by military and the other half by sons of kings and presidents and our experience with them is long. Both parties are arrogant and stubborn and the greediness and taking money without right and that similarity appeared during the visits of Bush to the region while people from our side were impressed by the US and hoped that these visits would influence our countries. Here he is being influenced by these regimes, Royal and military. And was feeling jealous they were staying for decades in power stealing the nations finances without anybody overseeing them. So he transferred the oppression of freedom and tyranny to his son and they call it the Patriot Law to fight terrorism. He was bright in putting his sons as governors in states and he didn't forget to transfer his experience from the rulers of our region to Florida to falsify elections to benefit from it in critical times.

    We agreed with Mohamed Atta, god bless him, to execute the whole operation in 20 minutes. Before Bush and his administration would pay attention and we never thought that the high commander of the US armies would leave 50 thousand of his citizens in both towers to face the horrors by themselves when they most needed him because it seemed to distract his attention from listening to the girl telling him about her goat butting was more important than paying attention to airplanes butting the towers which gave us three times the time to execute the operation thank god.

    Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or Al Qaeda. Your security is in your hands. Each state that doenst mess with our security has automatically secured their security."

    • The mafia is also very nice and friendly, as long as you pay them and don't go to the police or hinder their enforcers they will not put you at the bottom of the river in concrete overshoes. Nice guys ain't they?

      Same thing really with organisations like this. As long as the world lets them be, allows their members into their countries to convert citizens, allows them to build a super powerfull base then they won't harm you, promise, honestly.

      Every speech, every statement said by anyone must be tested agai

  • As much as I despise bin Laden... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Rolken ( 703064 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @11:13PM (#10669830)
    One thing I have to agree with him upon: the demonization that he's fighting America because he dislikes freedom is absurd. The only spin on that argument that is remotely plausible is that he's fighting against secularization and disrespect for Islamic law, and in that case why wouldn't he just come out and say it rather than beat around the Bush with proclamations that they're supporting those bad guys who hurt some of our guys?

    No, bin Laden truly believes that the US is meddling in affairs where it does not belong. The way he goes about acting upon his beliefs is somewhat less than proper, of course. But they are, at least in his twisted mind, well founded.
  • I mean, seriously. This is humongous news. I would call it the news of the year so far.

    Anyway, I think there will be two main responses to this tape:

    1. Osama bin Laden is still alive, which means Bush didn't do the job we asked him to do, instead taking us into another war for questionable reasons. Americans should vote for Kerry.

    2. Osama bin Laden knows about response #1, so the reason why he put out the tape now is so that Kerry will win the election. He wants Kerry to win the election because Ke

  • Osama bin Laden isn't an idiot (Score:3, Insightful)

    by stinerman ( 812158 ) on Friday October 29, 2004 @11:36PM (#10669908)
    Few people seem to understand Osama bin Laden is an educated and well-spoken man. He's not just some fundie psychopath that "hates us for our freedom". In his opinion, international terrorism is the only means to get to the end of percieved US imperalism. While I strongly disagree with his methods, he does have a well articulated position.

    I'm not a betting man, but I bet if we took an even handed approach to the Israel/Palestine problem as well as let the middle east be the middle east, we'd see a drastic decrease in worldwide terrorism.

    Of course, the mainstream would denounce such a change in policy as "letting the terrorists win". Here's a newsflash, kids ... just because the position is held by terrorists, doesn't mean that the position is false.

    Jill: "The terrorists say 2 + 2 = 4! What are they crazy?"
    Bob: "I've consulted my calculator, and it says 2 + 2 = 4 as well."
    Jill: "Quit siding with the terrorists, Bob. Why do you hate America?"

    This conversation is similar to any conversation I try to have with someone who is sure that America is Always Right.
    • Many mass murderes, child rapist, self-proclaimed messiahs have a high intelligence. Doesn't mean they are nice people.

      Certain religions, notably christians and muslims, have at their core the simple fact that everyone who is not one of them is evil. The christians have mostly managed to defeat themselves to the point that it is now a very different religion then the one that went on crusades to spread the fate.

      Spreading the fate meaning of course converting or killing everyone in their path.

      This has now

    • Re:Osama bin Laden isn't an idiot (Score:4, Insightful)

      by iwadasn ( 742362 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @01:33PM (#10673380)
      We should be somewhat careful about crafting radical public policy changes in response to terrorist attacks however. Whether they are right or wrong, changing our policies after an attack will be percieved as victory, then it's open season. Every nut job with some explosives thinks that all he has to do is kill enought people and he'll get official US sponsorship for his cause, not good.

      I'm not saying they're wrong about everything, I'm just saying that attempts at appeasement are probably going to be counterproductive. Especially considering that I think the actual friction between the middle east is more closely modeled as the friction between democracy and theocracy, rather than imperial power vs imperial subjects. If you think about it, a lot of places have been (and still are) dominated by imperialism, but there is only one middle east, what's different about the fundamentalist islamic countries as compared to, say, Colombia. It's probably not the degree of foreign domination, or the access to a simple (perhaps illicit) source of work free income, yet the outcome is different, the biggest difference I can see is national structure. Colombia is an oligarchy (nominally a democracy), and Iran (Afghanistan was) is a theocracy (give or take). Even N. Korea doesn't really directly sponsor terrorists, and they have it worse than anybody, in addition to having flat out more weapons than any of the middle eastern countries.

      I think the simplistic "we screwed them, now they try to kill us, lets be nice to them" view has some merit, but there is so much more complexity than that. Radically different world views cause extreme friction between the countries sponsoring them. Free market vs. Communism almost caused a world war, and Democracy (or even Atheism) vs Theocracy (or fundamentalism) is having the same effect.

      The good news is that eventually theocracy will simply sink into a sea of atheism (judging by history), and this problem will go away on its own, just as communism did. The bad news is that until that happens, if we appease one madman, we'll just have ten more jump up to take his place. You may think they'd be happy to just let us live our lives if we lefft them alone, but I don't think so. Witness the muslims eradicating the christians from Sudan, for instance.

      There are no simple answers, and this is the difference between the presidential canidates. Bush always thinks that things are black and white, and there is a simple answer for everything. Kerry sees nuance, and neither completely supports nor completely opposes most courses of action, and a small ammendment to a bill can change his mind either way. People see this as weakness, rather than as the wisdom that it is. Don't fall into the same trap. This is a genuinely hard problem, and "quick fixes" will leave us worse off than we were before.

      Now, I'm not going to get into whether the Iraq war was right or wrong, as that's really a small parrt of a pre-existing problem. Furthermore, despite the best efforts of Bush to make it into a disaster, it might just turn out OK in the end anyway, only time will tell. What is a little more certain is that it wouldn't have improved on its own, so it seems that not a whole lot was lost by our course of action, but Bush's insistence on using it as an exuse to rob the american public negates any actual (as opposed to fabricated) justification there may have been in the first place.

      Given that we are where we are, I don't think that just pulling the troops from Iraq would cause anything other than a bloody mess. Nor do I think that siding with one side or the other over Israel/Palestine would actually make anybody happy. In fact, I think that even complete detachment from the middle east for the US wouldn't help much (at this point), and might even start a few wars (civil or otherwise). Any of these simplistic courses of action are probably doomed to failure. I don't think hatred for us will be diminished if we leave the area and allow massive genocides and wars to occur. Much

  • I bet ... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 29, 2004 @11:49PM (#10669954)
    The total length of the tape received by the U.S. government is 18 minutes. Bin Laden spoke for 14 minutes and 39 seconds. U.S. officials would not comment on what else is on the tape.

    I bet the rest of the tape was:
    • The pwnage theme song
    • Footage of Osama reading "my pet terrorist" to some kids
    • Wild party and Osama performing his famous "the robot"
    • All your base is belong to us
    • Goatse
    • Osama doing the goatse


    Note to self; Dont attempt humour at 6 o'clock in the morning without sleep.

  • Transcipt? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bartok ( 111886 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @01:03AM (#10670343)
    Anyone notice how all the media are basically publishing the same words of the same text regarding this story? Isen't there any independant thinking journalists left?

    Also: Does anyone have a link to an english version of a transcript of what Bin Laden said in the video? I'd like to make up my own mind about what this guy has to say VS getting just choice quotes.

    • Re:Transcipt? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by BCW2 ( 168187 )
      "Isen't there any independant thinking journalists left?"

      Not since Chet Huntly left the NBC anchor with David Brinkley in the late 60's. When most newspapers put editorial crap on the front page instead of hard news (just the facts please, I really can think for myself), this is what it turns into. You get spoon fed what they want you to know.

      There is no news coverage anymore, just rumor, gossip, and bullshit.

  • Motive (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Simulant ( 528590 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @03:08AM (#10670762) Journal


    Is going to point out that according to the man himself, WE WERE ATTACKED BECAUSE OF OUR SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL? (and note that he cited direct military support for Israeli policy)

    Or shall we just continue to pretend this doesn't matter?

    Regardless of what you think may about Israel, you have to admit that this makes a helluvalot more sense than "they hate our freedom."

    It may be more productive to address this one issue than to run around invading whomever we like and justifying it by calling them terrorists no matter how tenuous the relationship is between them and Al Qaeda.

  • If you kill them, they will try to kill you. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Futurepower(R) ( 558542 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @07:29AM (#10671497) Homepage

    You should take bin Laden's statements with the greatest seriousness. In fact, the U.S. government has effectively declared war on Arabs and Muslims. Here is just one example: New York Governor Pataki's statements are equivalent to a declaration of war. [futurepower.org]

    To get votes from Jews in the United States, U.S. politicians go into the Jewish community and declare their "support for Israel". That's code for support for Israeli violence. Many politicians don't care about the morality of their actions. They don't care whether U.S. government support for Israeli violence is actually good for Jews. They just want the vote.

    Non-Jewish United States citizens never hear about this support for foreign wars. It isn't a secret; it's on Pataki's web site. But it is effectively a secret, because no one tells U.S. citizens that they are engaging in a war that will definitely cause them to be attacked.

    There is a one-sentence record in ancient Jewish texts, that are now part of the Christian Bible, that a Pharoah of Egypt had some complaint against the Jews about 3,200 years ago. Since then, at least every 200 years, the Jews have annoyed the surrounding cultures enough that they have been the targets of extreme violence. Certainly this is regrettable. Certainly something should be done about this. However, there is no evidence that anyone presently in power in the U.S. government has a sophisticated understanding of the problems, or any sensible ideas about how a nation thousands of miles from Israel could be helpful. In fact, it seems that U.S. government support for Jewish violence is like pouring "gasoline on a fire", as one Jewish leader said.

    The U.S. government, at present, fully supports the use of violence to achieve its goals. Under George W. Bush, the U.S. government believes that it is okay to kill people and destroy their property even when the U.S. is not directly or immediately threatened.

    Most U.S. citizens do not make the connection that a policy of violence supported by the U.S. government means that they will inevitably be attacked.

    Quoting from the CNN article [cnn.com], here are some of Osama bin Laden's words: "And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon [with U.S. government help], it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same" he says, "and that we had to destroy the towers in America, so that they taste what we tasted and they stop killing our women and children."

    If you live in Kalispell, Montana, USA, to pick a place at random, it is unlikely that you will be directly attacked by Arab terrorists. However, attacks on the U.S. affect you profoundly because they lower your quality of life, just as the U.S. attacks on Iraq lowered the quality of life there.

  • Ouch... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AlXtreme ( 223728 ) on Saturday October 30, 2004 @09:56AM (#10671944) Homepage Journal
    From the CNN transcribe [cnn.com]:
    We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them.

    [..] And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism. And Bush, the father, found it good to install his children as governors and leaders.

    As much as I despise his actions, he's got a point.

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