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Indonesian Politicians Plan To Quiz Snowden Following Visit By Russians 121

Posted by Unknown Lamer
from the good-luck-with-that dept.
cold fjord writes "Yahoo reports, 'Indonesian politicians plan to quiz former US National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden in Russia about revelations Australia tapped the phone of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. The move came as Indonesian protesters again laid siege to the Australian Embassy in Jakarta, burning images of Tony Abbott, throwing eggs and calling for a hard line against Australia. More than 1600 police were deployed to the Australian and US embassies and at several other potential targets in the capital after reports that hardline group the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) planned to hold the rallies ... Indonesian media reported MPs had 'permission' from Moscow to go to Russia to meet with Snowden ... The Jakarta Post said a delegation of Russian politicians was in Indonesia this week to discuss the Australian phone tapping revelations. Indonesia also launched an investigation into local telecommunications companies to see what role they may have played.'"
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Indonesian Politicians Plan To Quiz Snowden Following Visit By Russians

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  • the end of an Empire or a WW soon? Russia must be loving this as the US keep inching towards their own noose and their allies looking quite guitly.

    • by girlintraining (1395911) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @02:57AM (#45505587)

      the end of an Empire or a WW soon? Russia must be loving this as the US keep inching towards their own noose and their allies looking quite guitly.

      Oh hardly. This is a tempest in a teapot. Every country spies, but they have the good sense not to get caught out on it. Now these NSA "revelations" have just become cannon fodder for anyone with an agenda. To suggest it'll lead to military action though is far-fetched to say the least. This is how international politics play out. It's nothing of any real import.

      Many people gain by seeing the US cock-blocked in certain economies. Cisco was on track to grow 12% this quarter and instead shrunk by 6% -- as a major telecommunications provider, Snowden and this NSA business have cost them billions. And those billions have gone to its competitors.

      All this talk isn't about the military, but about the economy. Anything that can be used to give other countries an edge against the largest country's economy is going to be leveraged to its fullest.

      • by future assassin (639396) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @03:15AM (#45505621) Homepage

        And once the rest of the word locks down those holes all the US will have is intelectual property which no one will give a flying fuck about. Thats why they're so desperate to get TPP finalized in secrecy. You'd be a fool to think a major "stay relevant" conflict in not going to happen on the next 10-20 years as the US becomes less important and its citizens want their American Pie culture back. By then they'll just be straight consumers with verry little to offer to the rest of the world.

      • by AHuxley (892839)
        Re any real import?
        The telco codes are weak for any group/country to use as the NSA and friends did.
        The global competitors will have to do a better job than the existing US products and prove they are not equally compromized.
        US telco/networking brands will never be trusted again but US web 2.0 will be enjoyed.
        The quality of use of US brands is over. Its products are still fun just not useful to many nations anymore.
        Its not so much leveraged as people wanting their phone networks back, their banking ba
      • by G3ckoG33k (647276) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @04:14AM (#45505759)

        "All this talk isn't about the military, but about the economy. Anything that can be used to give other countries an edge against the largest country's economy is going to be leveraged to its fullest".

        There some problems with "largest country's economy" (or "largest country's economy"). From Wikipedia:

        China is the world's second largest economy by nominal GDP and by purchasing power parity after the United States. It is the world's fastest-growing major economy, with growth rates averaging 10% over the past 30 years. China is also the largest exporter and second largest importer of goods in the world. China is the largest manufacturing economy in the world, outpacing its world rival in this category, the service-driven economy of the United States of America.

        The relevant part here is that the US economy may be larger but much of is becoming people scratching other peoples backs; think of hair dressers, restaurants, banking etc.

        CH: GDP by sector agriculture: 10.1%, industry: 45.3%, services: 44.6%% (2012 est.)
        US: GDP by sector agriculture: 1.2%, industry: 19%, services: 80% (2011 est.)

        Oh, there is ample of oomph left:

        The US has abundant natural resources, a well-developed infrastructure, and high productivity.[24] It has the world's sixth-highest per capita GDP (PPP).[2] The U.S. is the world's third-largest producer of oil and second-largest producer of natural gas. It is the second-largest trading nation in the world behind China.[25] It has been the world's largest national economy (not including colonial empires) since at least the 1890s.[26] As of 2010, the country remains the world's largest manufacturer, representing a fifth of the global manufacturing output.[27] Of the world's 500 largest companies, 132 are headquartered in the US, twice that of any other country.[28] The country is one of the world's largest and most influential financial markets. About 60% of the global currency reserves have been invested in the US dollar, while 24% have been invested in the euro. The New York Stock Exchange is the world's largest stock exchange by market capitalization.[29] Foreign investments made in the US total almost $2.4 trillion, which is more than twice that of any other country.[30] American investments in foreign countries total over $3.3 trillion, which is almost twice that of any other country.[31] Consumer spending comprises 71% of the US economy in 2013

        Note that consumers spending comprises 71% of the US economy in 2013 and put that in relation to

        US Exports: $1.56 trillion (2012)
        US Imports: $2.3 trillion (2012)

        Ouch.

        This is a tempest in a teapot? Oh hardly.

        .

        .

        Sources
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China [wikipedia.org]
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_US [wikipedia.org]

        • by onyxruby (118189)

          It's a tempest in a teapot because /every/ nation spies on every other nation to the greatest extent that their technology, budget and legal system allows. It has been this way since pre-biblical times (hell even the old Testament in the Bible records nations spying on nations amongst other ancient stories). I don't know if you noticed or not but while a lot of people became upset, and certainly a number of companies became upset about the Snowden revelations almost no governments became upset.

          Think about i

        • I have to speak up here on the agriculture thing. I own about 500 acres of row crops raising wheat, soybeans, and rice primarily. Every now and then there is 20 acres of corn on one field. At any rate I monitor global agriculture trends pretty closes. For instance the growing seasons in S. America are the single biggest factor these days on what the price of Soybeans will be come harvest time in the US.

          I'm not sure where this 1.2% GDP comes from exactly. Because right now food and food stuffs are one o

        • There some problems with "largest country's economy" (or "largest country's economy"). From Wikipedia:

          ... And then there was a very long collection of wikipedia quotes, confirming that, indeed, America is still numero uno. One. Top dog. Best in class. Aced it. Nailed it. America - Fuck Yeah.

          This is a tempest in a teapot? Oh hardly.

          As far as the OP claiming this would result in military action, yes. We're not only the biggest economy on the planet, we also have the biggest military. Nobody's gonna fuck with us over some punk kid making public what every country on the planet already knew in private: We all spy on each other.

          This is a tempest in a t

      • by dbIII (701233)
        In the case of Cisco their prices are inflated more than their competition since they could sell at that value due to their reputation. When they do that instead of major quality or technical excellence differences at this point of time, just relying on perceptions of their being a gap in the past, it's no wonder they take a hit when their reputation drops and they don't drop prices to keep sales.
      • All this talk isn't about the military, but about the economy. Anything that can be used to give other countries an edge against the largest country's economy is going to be leveraged to its fullest.

        I live in Indonesia.

        In this case it's not about the economy, it's about politics. Indonesia will have parliamentary elections in May 2014 and politicians of all stripes are looking for ways to distinguish them from their competitors. Since none have any platforms to speak of, and all are disgustingly corrupt, they use chest-thumping nationalism as one way to garner attention and hopefully votes. This has just given them a great opportunity and all are trying to out chest-thump the other parties. Mostly

  • Douches (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @01:34AM (#45505361)

    All these aggrieved politicians who wouldn't have anything to talk about were it not for Snowden, but not a single one of them is talking about offering him asylum.

    Indonesia's got its problems (seems to be on the 2-steps forward, 1-step back path to social modernity) but it is hard to think of a better place to live your life in exile than Bali. Beats the hell out of those russian winters.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      The Indonesians apparently can't stop the Australians from spying on their politicians and wouldn't have known about it even without the Snowden disclosures. I'd expect the CIA two weeks tops to either capture or double-tap strike Snowden if he were to start living in Bali, and if it takes them any longer than that someone's getting a fail on their annual employee review.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by AHuxley (892839)
        Indonesia knew exactly what Australia signals intelligence could do during Timor ~1999.
        Regional radio traffic was well understood by Australia. Indonesia knew of Australia having both NSA help and its own internal radio tracking efforts with teams of skilled linguists.
        The Snowden news added nothing new to the mil history aspect.
        • Re:Douches (Score:5, Informative)

          by erikkemperman (252014) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @05:32AM (#45506017)

          Indonesia knew exactly what Australia signals intelligence could do during Timor ~1999.

          I'd guess they might have known way earlier. After all the near-genocidal Indonesian invasion [wikipedia.org] (1975) and prolonged occupation [wikipedia.org] (1975-1999) of East Timor enjoyed the sustained support of Australia and the US... Despite massive torture, extrajudicial executions and deliberate starvation.

          It wasn't until some Western journalists (the tireless Amy Goodman among others) managed to get video footage of the 1991 Dili massacre [wikipedia.org] out of the area that those accomplices had to answer questions by their electorate about why such a brutal and sustained onslaught on human rights was being supported and partially facilitated by their governments.

          • by Pav (4298)
            I've heard it cynically said that this happened because it allows western oil companies wanted better deals on offshore oil fields - there was certainly a public outcry when the Howard government wanted to practically shove East Timor off the fields very soon after they became a nation. The boundaries are disputed [crikey.com.au], and I'd imagine negotiating with East Timor as a separate entity is much easier than with Indonesia.
        • by dbIII (701233)
          The difference here is a Powerpoint presentation on how to hack the President of Indonesia's phone ending up in the hands of a US contractor. That's pretty insulting.
          It's like the difference between knowing someone can urinate and watching them urinate on your countries flag.

          Or maybe not, but I like that analogy.
        • The Snowden news added nothing new to the mil history aspect.

          On the other hand we now see Russia deploying political action teams to stir the pot and exploit the ensuing political chaos to their favor. A textbook example of political warfare 101 by Russia courtesy of its Soviet roots, almost as if they planned it [aim.org].

          I'm a little surprised you didn't pick up on that given your nose for conspiracy.

          • by AHuxley (892839)
            LOL Cold, the US helped Indonesia clear out most of its "Russian" influence back in during the Cold War.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Indonesia [wikipedia.org]
            China in the region is doing what China always did - longterm investment, aid, trade and gov friendship.
            Russia is learning to follow China in the region with - longterm investment, aid, trade and gov friendship.
            Snowden adds nothing new to what Indonesia or any other country knows of the Australian Signals Directorate (ASD was Defence Signals Di
    • Any time there is outrage in another country about NSA spying, goons here come out of the woodwork to say "those politicians are all talk!".. as if the politicians were the ones upset. No, it's the people of those countries who were wronged, and they are angry. Who cares about the fuxking politicians? That's a distraction.
      • No, it's the people of those countries who were wronged, and they are angry. Who cares about the fuxking politicians? That's a distraction.

        OK, just for you:

        All these aggrieved citizens who wouldn't have anything to talk about were it not for Snowden, but not a single one of them is talking about offering him asylum.

        • Why would citizens be talking about granting political figures asylum when citizens don't have the power to grant asylum? Governments do, and many South American governments HAVE expressed the will to give him asylum.
          http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/07/13/s-american-leaders-back-asylum-amid-snowden-row/ [foxnews.com]

          You also talk about other countries' concerns in a manner, frankly, that makes you sound like an unlikeable prick.

          How about when Britain and France cowtowed to the US in denying Bolivia's presiden
          • Why would citizens be talking about granting political figures asylum when citizens don't have the power to grant asylum?

            Lol. You were the one bitchin about me ignoring the citizens. The questions you ask me would be better directed at yourself. You certainly are terribly careless. Probably a little mental illness there too.

            • This is very simple, and it's unfortunate that you're getting confused. You're wrong in implying that this solely a matter of politicians "acting" outraged, and you're wrong in implying that they wouldn't have anything to justifiably be mad about.. This is a matter of the public being justifiably outraged. What anyone can do about it is a concern of your own construction.
              • You're wrong in implying that this solely a matter of politicians "acting" outraged,

                This is very simple, and it's unfortunate that you're getting confused. You're wrong in assuming I'm implying that this is solely a matter of politicians.

  • by Art Challenor (2621733) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @01:37AM (#45505381)
    I don't condone the violence, but it's interesting that you'll get headlines blaming the violence on Snowden and his release of the documents - not on the real source of the problem which was the covert activities of the US, and it seems now also the Australians.
    • by sumdumass (711423)

      Well, the two are actually separate. The protests only happened after the revelation which wouldn't have happened if the secrets were actually secret.

      Its like telling a kid he was adopted. As long as he doesn't know and is a part of a loving family, he is happy or as happy as he was until he found out that his parents aren't really his parents. So it might not be the secret but the revelation of the secret that is the problem that causes the protests.

      That is not to say the problem wasn't real until then, it

    • by AHuxley (892839) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @02:18AM (#45505499) Homepage Journal
      Yes the UK and US sell weak encryption, give the keys to Australia and Australia goes and 'plays' spy in the region.
      The problem for Australia is they where very nice to Indonesia in public pre Timor, over oil, gas, during and after Timor, with unique security agreements, generations of military training and lots of aid.
      Now the usual sock puppets try and spin 'blame' Snowden on the release :)
      Australia could have been more diplomatic over the issue but selected the classic Dutch, cold war CIA/Moscow 'talking to' Indonesia approach.
      Decades of hard diplomatic work by Australian govs is now been lost over wanting spy gossip. Russia and China will be back in the region offering their tech help, trade deals, friendship and regional expertise.
      Indonesian experts have learned not to trust crypto offered and will work harder to protect their networks.
      Australia is left looking a bit lost. The UK and US trusted Australia with the keys to crypto, Indonesia was on good trade terms.
      The main problem for Australia is they only had one good trick - the NSA magic and deep reach for all regional signals. Now the region knows and Australia is back to been seen as a colonial outpost, a listening station for the UK and USA.
      • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

        by sd4f (1891894)

        The problem is, not that long ago, the Indonesians didn't consider Australia, a 'colonial outpost, a listening station for the UK and USA' but rather 'South Irian'.

      • Australia could have been more diplomatic over the issue ...
        Decades of hard diplomatic work by Australian govs is now been lost ....

        A., you may recall that Indonesia's former head of their national intelligence has admitted to tapping the phones of Australian politicians in the recent past. This is the pot calling the kettle black, and politicians overreacting, .... at least in public.

        You also mention "weak encryption," I believe that is the one thing that hasn't been shown and that Snowden directly said still was OK when properly used.

        It is also worth pointing out that Snowden admits his actions. Those are actions that will have many

        • by AHuxley (892839)
          Cold the NSA and GCHQ put that junk encryption in place, sold it to the world. Australia, contractors, ex staff are all using the 'keys' for their own ends.
          All Snowden did was tell the world so more skilled people can fix the junk sold to them by US brands.
    • blaming the violence on Snowden and his release of the documents - not on the real source of the problem which was the covert activities of the US, and it seems now also the Australians.

      Maybe this will end up like software patents. All the countries on the planet will agree to cross-license their hatred. We could avoid a lot of conflicts that way.

    • I don't condone the violence, but it's interesting that you'll get headlines blaming the violence on Snowden and his release of the documents - not on the real source of the problem which was the covert activities of the US, and it seems now also the Australians.

      It isn't even that. The problem is the asymmetric nature of the release. Indonesia is riddled with spies, at least some of whom are there to spy on the many terrorists and terrorist supporting groups in Indonesia. Unfortunately only the activities of a couple of nations have been revealed, and the others haven't. That allows people to pretend that the problem is the US or Australia, that other nations aren't involved, and that there is no reason for intelligence gathering in Indonesia. The article docu

      • I also note that you apparently have nothing to say about Russia stirring the pot on this with their political delegation.

        Not a thing. If you cheat on your spouse and your buddy posts it on Facebook, they may be an asshole, but you still cheated on your spouse.

        And just because everyone else is doing it and not being discovered (asymmetry) doesn't mean that you should.

        For they US you really have to stretch the analogy. They didn't just cheat on their spouse, they went to everyone of their friends houses and cheated on someone there also.

        • Indonesia hardly has grounds to complain since the former head of its national intelligence agency has admitted to tapping the phones of Australian politicians in the past, and that Indonesia taps the phones of many nations.

          Besides that, relationships between nations aren't similar to marriages, and Russia's actions aren't the equivalent of just posting on Facebook. And where do you get the idea that nations either don't or "shouldn't" spy on each other? In a perfect world, maybe, but then the world would

          • I answered that already. Your basic premise is that everyone is doing it. That still doesn't make the action morally acceptable. If it were, there would be no reason to keep it secret. We could just have a list of who's phone is being tapped on the NSA website.

            That they don't have it there tells you that they have something to hide, that they are doing something that the population would find unacceptable. And yes, there are legitmate reasons to gather intelligence secretly, but these should have cl
            • Your previous answer and this one are largely nonsense. Nations aren't people, and the ethics that guide us individually aren't necessarily appropriate guidance for the use of the power of a state. Do you personally imprison people? Or tax them? Why not, the state does it? Could it be that you don't have the power to do that, and it isn't appropriate for you to do so? The same thing goes with spying on foreign powers. The state has to do things that you don't.

              You hide intelligence operations so they

  • Failing to see how Australia spying on Indonesia protects my 4th amendment rights.
    • by AHuxley (892839)
      The more people around the world study crypto, the more malware that is found in the telco systems the better.
      Think of it as a global clean up of useless encryption and codes, expensive telco systems and junk gov set international standards.
      Everything the Australians use is for sale on the global market to any wealthy corporation, individual, faith, cult, criminal group, contractor or other random govs.
      Ex staff and former staff who used this tech are selling it globally - so better to get it fixed global
    • by gl4ss (559668)

      well, do "men" count as everyone or just non-felon citizens of usa. soon enough "men" will be just military personnel an politicians.

      anyways, if you have that attitude, that it's right to piss on privacy rights of members of other nations to gain competitive advantage in trade politics, then I guess you might see why so many people are pissed off at USA pissing on their international contracts because domestically they have made it legal to piss on them and to help nations they choose to piss on them.

  • by EdIII (1114411) on Sunday November 24, 2013 @02:08AM (#45505467)

    Indonesia also launched an investigation into local telecommunications companies to see what role they may have played

    Wake me when telco officials physically spend some time in prison like they should be doing in the US. That would be rather impressive and satisfying.

    In the US there is zero accountability at this point so the only justice I can enjoy is vicariously through other countries not yet as far gone.

  • While he may not be 100% clean, the activities that the Indonesians, Labor, Rudd, and Julia Gillard are all hyperventilating about, occurred under the previous Government. Let me see, who may have been responsible? Oh, that's right, Gillard, Rudd, Labor!

    • by dbIII (701233)
      Spot on, but the current leader is showing he can't even deflect the blame off him to where it belongs. Personally I think Turnbull or someone else should stand up and take the reins from someone that has been demanding to be Prime Minister for three years but is still not ready. Get rid of this loser and we may still get the NBN instead of rotting copper.
  • by Tablizer (95088)

    Snowden will officially change his name to Pandoreno.

    • Yes. The pity is that most people mistake Pandora's box for a music box and are dancing around it in ecstasy. Little do they suspect that the box has barely started to reveal its contents even if no more revelations from Snowden's stolen cache are published.

      I wonder what the offspring of Pandora and the Pied Piper would look like?

  • Spying on the Indonesian President (by Australians) or German Chancellor (by NSA and GCHQ) raises serious questions:
    - Under terrorism and national security threat you can ask yourself:
    - Are they on a terrorist watchlist?
    - Implying that they are linked to terrorist organisations?
    - Implying that they are behind terror activities and murders?
    -If not under terrorism surveillance, then this raises even more sinister and darker questions:
    - To get insider knowledge so those involved in this spying can
    • None of the above. The German Chancellor and the Brazillian president were simply on General Alexander's private Hot Chick Voyeur list. The Indonesian president must have been on the Australian prime minister's Toy Boy list I suppose.
      • by sd4f (1891894)
        You mean ex-prime minister Kevin Rudd's toy boy list. Abbott has only been PM since September. This is a problem he inherited.
  • I thought the Russians promised that Snowden could stay there as long as he discontinued his revelations.

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