Would-Be Tesla Owners Jump Through Hoops To Skirt Wacky Texas Rules 470
cartechboy writes "Texas is known for having the nation's most draconian anti-Tesla rules, based on intense and cash-rich lobbying and political donations by Texas car dealers. What's amazing is what would-be Tesla owners still have to do to get their hands on--and maintain--a Tesla Model S. How do you buy a car the laws try to stop you from owning? By jumping through wacky hoops, it turns out. Tesla store staff, for example, can't tell visitors how much a Model S costs. They can't give test drives, and they can't discuss financing options. Tesla service centers are banned from showing the company logo — or advertising that they do Tesla warranty work or service at all. So how have 1,000 Model S cars been sold? That would be sheer persistence."
Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, those individual-freedom-loving Texans.
Re:Red state (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd love to see the Tesla sales numbers from Austin vs the rest of the state. Austin residents have long been at odds w/the rest of the state and their politics and as such I have a feeling we'd see a pretty high correlation with Austin vs Tesla ownership when compared w/the rest of the state.
Re:Red state (Score:4, Insightful)
You think any Texans except the oil companies actually want this Tesla sales ban?
This isn't Austin vs. the rest of the state, this is oil companies vs the rest of the state.
Re:Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
This one's about the car dealerships, not the oil companies. General Motors has been one of the key electric car pushers, but their dealers were far from hands-off on this one.
For the oil companies, sticking it to Tesla is just a fringe benefit.
Re:Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
This has absolutely nothing to do with oil companies. This is all about the car dealership lobby.
The car dealership lobby tends to have a lot of power in state politics - especially in states with large rural and suburban populations.
Re:Red state (Score:4, Interesting)
"I'd love to see the Tesla sales numbers from big cities vs the rest of the state."
Fixed.
In all those itty bitty northeastern states, where you can spit from one state to another, having charging stations plentiful enough is easy. But in Texas, once you get out of the big cities, even for gas you need to at least think a bit ahead.
"libertarians" against fair competition (Score:5, Informative)
the GOP in Texas is a criminal organization like the mafia....Tesla wouldn't pay the 'protection' fee...
any equivocation belies ignorance...if you are a "libertarian" you must criticize this and oppose the Republicans who did it
from TFA:
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...except selling electric cars, apparently.
Re:"libertarians" against fair competition (Score:5, Insightful)
Interstate commerce. Normally I'm all for state's rights, but this is one area where there's actually a Constitutional basis to tell the State to get bent.
Re:Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Red state (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, these dealers have more money, so they get more freedom.
Oh, so in other words, exactly the same as every other state government in the nation, as well as the national government itself.
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Re:Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what giving regulatory power to your government brings you.
I thought this was what bringing regulatory power to your local businessmen brings you...
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What is amazing is the people who love regulation so much just hate this. You know, the ones who want everybody to be forced to drive an electric skateboard, or have no choice besides a bus or a bile. This is what giving regulatory power to your government brings you.
Well, I'm sure your choice would be the bile, from the tone of your post.
Seriously, who wants regulation for its own sake? There's usually some other goal in mind, and regulations are seen as a means for achieving it.
(Also, buses are okay for feeder routes, and if you have to have any sort of automobile, an electric is often going to be the best option. But electrified rail is the best motorized transportation out there AFAIK)
Re:Red state (Score:5, Interesting)
Regulations that protect the public from profiteering corporations == good.
Regulations that protect profiteering corporations from competition to maintain profits == bad.
Seems easy enough to understand. The problem is not regulations, but what it achieves (and how it does it). Spend too much time thinking about the means and you'll lose sight of the ends.
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Most people that support universal healthcare don't believe that the ACA is the end-state. It's not the ideal system, but more of a first-step in getting there.
Wouldn't have hurt Diet Mtn Dew (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Wouldn't have hurt Diet Mtn Dew (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad example. If you're thinking of the New York City soft drink size limit, that would have applied to soft drinks with caloric sweeteners, not diet soft drinks.
Indeed; if OP really wanted to point out an example of how New York State can be just as draconian and anti-freedom as the Texas example above, he'd have been better off to cite the 4 NY Senators [thetechherald.com] who, back in 2011, insisted that the First Amendment be relegated from a right to a privilege.
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Other than the fact that a suggestion is not an enforceable law...
It has that effect though. Unless a person has the resources to defend themselves, laws are what law enforcement says they are. Try to cite Bill of Rights protections to law enforcement and they either assume you're a nut or part of a militia.
Even if defendants ultimately prevail, the damage has been done and a chilling effect is almost always created.
What diet soda ban other than NYC? (Score:2)
Where did he even specify "diet soft drinks"?
AC specified that a Democratic state banned large sodas, appearing to have made an attempt at a tu quoque argument [wikipedia.org]. The only such ban that I'm aware of is the New York proposal, and Wikipedia's article about this ban cites sources stating that this proposal would not have applied to diet sodas. Thus the argument is weak even as a tu quoque. If you're aware of another example of a ban on large sodas in another Democratic state, I'm willing to discuss it.
Re:Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't even say red states allow more flexibility for companies and "economic freedom." (Points to current article.)
If you're uncomfortable with how close that sounds to (gasp) taking a political position, you can give yourself the following out: it's not political or ideological differences so much as it is culture. This isn't a conservative/liberal difference. This is morons allowing their government to be run by the highest bidder, and maybe a little bit of misplaced hate at environmentalism (electric cars and all). Conservatives should be angry at government meddling here, it's clearly the exact opposite of free market economics. Texas here isn't being conservative, Texas is being dumb, ignorant, and lazy.
Anyway, the point isn't to say "Ha ha, blue states are better than red." Or shouldn't be. The point should be to highlight stupidity in government no matter where it happens. And I'd argue that there's a lot more egregious stupidity in Texas than in some blue states. Perhaps I'm still just pissed off at the dry county thing where I was stuck for New Years that one time. Fuck you, Texas.
Re:Red state (Score:5, Informative)
Only because of the courts... NY, D.C., and others, basically outlawed guns, until the courts overturned the rules.
I'm a registered Democrat, who has never owned or fired a gun, yet I'm disgusted at the faith-based gun control laws being advocated, despite all evidence EVER, showing they only have the opposite effects. And worse, exploiting dead children to push for gun control laws that undeniably wouldn't have saved any of those children. Universal background checks are a great idea, but all other gun control laws currently suggested are pure idiocy.
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Oh and Australia has a much more populated Indonesia next door (on the global map it is almost touching) as the Mexican equivalent
There's a slight problem: there's a big body of water separating the two. You can't exactly walk between Indonesia and Australia (and it's too far to swim while carrying a bunch of contraband on your back). Yes, you can use boats, but the Australian Navy is very active in patrolling their EEZ waters, largely to discourage illegal fishers (usually from other neighboring countrie
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Re:Red state (Score:4, Insightful)
There are no "Conservatives" any more who matter. There exist religious fanatics and pimps for big business, and between the two there is plenty of overlap.
It's time to stop regarding "Conservatism" as having any sort of positive contribution to the US beyond the preservation of the Second Amendment, and if Democrats would embrace that Amendment they'd gain massively in the polls. The Cold War is over, the US and China won, and the US has no effective enemies left. "Defense" now only means "perpetual globalist wars" but the Democrats are down with those too so not even the globalists need "Conservatives" as they own both Parties.
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and if Democrats would embrace that Amendment they'd gain massively in the polls.
The NRA, being the most effecitve lobby in the US, DOES actually push a good number of democrats to be pro second amendment. Doesn't help their national image.
I think there are still real conservatives out there, they're just massively out-spent by the unholy alliance you mentioned, the Norquist tea party group. Small government conservatism isn't extinct. Deport the tea party and jail the lobbyists pushing to cut taxes to the breaking point (without cutting spending), and republican can become a pa
Re:Red state (Score:4, Informative)
if you were too stupid to figure out where the nearest county line was so you could buy booze, then I have zero sympathy for your rant.
I didn't live there and this was before the era of smartphones. It was new years, and my relatives there don't drink much. Anyway, "There are ways around it" make a bad law become not bad.
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True, but dry and very restrictive counties/municipalities aren't unique to the bible belt - plenty of that in blue states as well.
agreed (Score:3)
Agreed. I tend conservative myself, as in "don't tthrow the baby out with the bathwater", and I think this particular law needs to be reviewed. I would want to hear arguments pro and con before saying it should definitely be repealed , but it looks suspiciously like a bad law.
Ps - look up Draco, who Draconian refers to.
That's a lot like calling Obama "Hitler".
Obama is more like Elmo than he is Hitler, and that law, while it may be bad, is in no way Draconian.
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To cite a Fox News site as you hurl the acusation that the other party is ignorant and needs to be educated implies you are the one with deficiencies that will not be remedied by any call to reason or logic. Only a true true believer can give Fox News as a source that delivers unvarished truth . Thus, cease with the name calling unless and until you are willing tol stand behind your words with a real identity, even then do not expect rapture to follow.
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You are correct that Fox is not a source for truth, you wouldn't cite it as an affirmation of any positive claim, but it's perfectly good for this purpose.
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Basically, the Tesla side is losing because they didn't pay the appropriate bribes.
Re:Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
(And I hate to break it to you, but it's Senate Democrats who voted down the budget for two weeks.)
You're either an idiot or an asshole. Or both. So let me explain based on the assumption you're simply ignorant. Here's how politics works:
1. Submit a bill titled "The most wonderful bill in the history of mankind which everybody loves excepts evil fucking bastards."
2. Add something in this bill which says that everybody must abduct, kill, and eat 1 dozen babies per week.
3. Watch opponents vote against bill because it is sick and wrong.
4. Proceed to loudly proclaim that your opponent just voted against the most wonderful bill in the history of mankind and thus has proven himself to be an evil fucking bastard.
Rinse and repeat. They all do it. You can claim Senate Democrats "voted down the budget" which is not even close to the whole story. Or you can say that House GOP pushed a pile of pigshit up to the Senate. Most revealing is how you use the phrase "THE budget". There is no budget until it's voted into law, what was sent was A proposed budget.
Quit getting your information from the bullshit on TV, it's mostly a bunch of partisan crap. Go read the actual bill, look at the riders attached to it. Often a bill which looks great up front contains a whole bunch of really stupid bullshit. Ask your elected rep why he/she voted for/against a bill, don't just take the title and start screaming "OMG Senator DickWiggle just voted against the Save the Children bill, so he must be in favor of murdering the children!"
Re:Red state (Score:5, Insightful)
"...but it's Senate Democrats who voted down the budget for two weeks"
becasue pubs were adding stuff that shouldn't be part of it.
If the rolls were reversed and the Dems added a rider that outlawed guns, would you blame the pubs for not agreeing to the budget?
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"I'll kill us all unless I get what I want."
No.
"Okay, I'll kill us all unless I get some of what I want."
No.
"But I compromised! You're not being fair!"
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The point is that there shouldn't be any laws about having to have independent car dealerships.
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Then change that law. Bitch about that law. Don't go around spouting bullshit about Tesla being some singled out victim.
If GM wanted to adopt the same sales model as Tesla, they'd have the same problem.
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But they don't want to sell it the same way as everyone else! Why should there be a middleman franchise dealer in the mix?
And they ARE trying to change the laws to allow sales, it's just that they're not paying out the bribes to the lawmakers in the same way that the Texas auto dealer association is doing.
Might not have the effect they want (Score:3)
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This might be good for Tesla sales.
The car's "status symbol" status will be better for sales than if it weren't a status symbol, but I think that the difficulty in acquiring and maintaining one more than balances that out. I'm positive that they'd have stronger sales if buying one weren't such a pain in the ass.
Republicans love the free market! (Score:3)
Oh wait... that would mean... err... *head explodes*
Relevant link: http://www.rootstrikers.org/ [rootstrikers.org]
Texas means oil (Score:5, Insightful)
Is that how free market is supposed to work? Corrupted government?
Re:Texas means oil (Score:5, Insightful)
ya. It is really cute when the article flat out states that things wont change for Tesla until they buy more politicians. Sensibility, reasonableness, will of the people... all of these and more get left out in the cold until you pony up the big bucks.
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ya. It is really cute when the article flat out states that things wont change for Tesla until they buy more politicians.
OK, so just sell off a couple of the CA politicians already in the stable, and use the money from that to purchase a TX Senator or two.
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Absolutely. Adam Smith was adamant about the necessity of regulating business and preventing collusion among businessmen, but you'd never know it from the fulminations of the Libertardians. They pick and choose those sections of his work that they approve of and pretend the rest doesn't exist, rather like Christians who ignore Leviticus.
Re:Texas means oil (Score:4, Informative)
You can't have it. (Score:5, Funny)
A Violation of the Sherman Act? (Score:2)
Or the Interstate Commerce Clause? (Score:3)
What gives Texas the authority to prevent any manufacturer -- of cars or otherwise -- from selling their products in the state? Couldn't this be construed as an illegal restraint of trade against the State of California?
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Ostensibly, this is to prevent monopolies.
It's why Sony and MGM don't have theaters in Texas, but instead have to lease their films to movie houses. Sorry, you can only see the Disney movie at the Disney theater, at Disney prices.
In reality, it's to make sure that a middle-man gets a juicy cut of the sales.
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Sorry, you can only see the Disney movie at the Disney theater, at Disney prices.
Awesome, I could just boycott the whole theatre while enjoying movies at the other theatre without having to read the poster to see who the distributor is.
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What gives Texas the authority to prevent any manufacturer -- of cars or otherwise -- from selling their products in the state? Couldn't this be construed as an illegal restraint of trade against the State of California?
That... doesn't seem right.
By the same logic, California has an illegal restraint of trade against any state that manufactures certain firearms and firearm accessories, and most states would have an illegal restraint of trade against Colorado by not allowing CO pot growers to sell there.
Mini-Streisand effect... (Score:5, Insightful)
I live about 2-3 miles from the Tesla service depot in Austin. One thing that seems to sell the vehicles is the fact that they are "so good, they had to be banned." Even with all the hoops one has to jump through, if one wants a runabout vehicle, a Tesla is hard to beat (assuming one can afford the ticket to entry.)
So, the prohibition on Tesla vehicles in Texas just makes people seem to want them more. Especially with the fact that in Austin, charging stations are popping up in odd but useful places, such as credit union parking lots.
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As the owner of a Leaf, with a ~90 mile range (my range is about 90 anyway, YMWV), I can say that a Tesla is a bit more than a "runabout vehicle." We thought we'd have to make SERIOUS adjustments driving a Leaf in the far suburbs of Phoenix (we're 3+ miles to a gas station, and 10 miles from the nearest Freeway), but a few MINOR tweaks and we're golden -- and that's on half of the Tesla's range.
Yes, Texas is a big state, and it's not suitable for driving 100+ miles one way and then driving back unless you
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The nice thing with the charging stations is usually I just avoid them with my model S. It's cheaper to charge at home. For driving around the Bay Area it's been great. I've used a few of the supercharger stations which have also been great. My only complaint is that they need more of them in more places. There aren't any heading north from the Bay Area and they need them in some more out of the way places like on the way to Yosemite or near Big Sur. The public charging stations are not all that useful when
1000 new medals please (Score:5, Funny)
So how have 1,000 Model S cars been sold? That would be sheer persistence.
Can I buy one just to drive it through the doors of their capitol and park it on top of the assholes who passed all these laws while screaming "ASSHOLES ARE BIGGER IN TEXAS TOO!" I know I'd probably be riddled full of bullets and called a terrorist, but for those 30 glorious seconds, I think I would be a working class hero. :(
In other news; We should start putting warning labels on everything that comes from Texas, including the people: "Warning: This product is known to cause stupidity in every other state but Texas." (with a tip of the hat to another state, whose stupidity created similarily named labels). And now, moderators who live in those two states... fire up the 'overrated' and 'troll' buttons, and I apologize I kept you waiting so long. :P
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I think you have a great idea for a T-Shirt or Bumper Sticker there.
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Perhaps with a picture of the goatse.cx guy on the front.
Re:1000 new medals please (Score:5, Funny)
Warning: The State of Texas is known to the State of Californian to contain regular unleaded.
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In other news; We should start putting warning labels on everything that comes from Texas, including the people: "Warning: This product is known to cause stupidity in every other state but Texas."
Funny, I feel the same way about products from California, due to their unreasonable hatred for the Constitutional right to self-protection.
Aye, the street! She runs both ways!
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Yeah, really, what's with people these days? Can't even murder civilians for political purposes without getting labeled a terrorist.
Once again, my sarcasm has become so advanced that it stupifies people. First, you could never get a car through the door. I know Texas lawmakers are pretty fat, but even at that, a car is still wider by a small margin. Second, and I only half-joke on this... politicans aren't civilians. While I don't advocate violence, killing politicians or agents of the government doesn't meet the actual definition of terrorism (not the current political definition which is basically "anything we disagree with"): They ar
MYOB (Score:2)
Re:MYOB (Score:5, Insightful)
How we chose to run our state is our business. Period. If you don't like it, go start an oil company and run our state for us.
FTFY.
So how have 1,000 Model S cars been sold? (Score:2)
The Internet? Going to another state?
Really it's an expensive car. You could fly to Ca. order it and have it delivered.
Just a guess.
Republican party (Score:2)
This is what you get from the Republican party's pro-business, minimal government policies... pro-entrenched business that is.
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Recalibrate your sarcasm detector, bro.
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It would probably be more useful if someone explained sarcasm instead.
Oh, america (Score:3)
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... the country that legalized bribery.
Most American law is based on English common law, so... not so much.
The Brits came up with the concept, we just streamlined the process :)
Legislature (Score:2)
Buying a Tesla S (Score:2, Funny)
- Hey man, what's the deal?
- We have a little bit of everything... weed, meth, heroin... what do ya want?
- What about a Tesla S?
- Shhhhhh! Don't speak so loudly... come with me...
why can't tesla set up dealerships? (Score:2, Interesting)
lots of new automakers set up dealerships in the USA in the last 30 years?
its a $80,000 car, not a blu ray player. this is something you want to buy in person
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Their business model is sell direct to the customer. I suppose they could set up a "dealership" model where the salescritters are Tesla employees and the dealership marks the price up $1, but then the Texas Dealership Association (or whatever its called) would probably make membership in their club mandatory, or set a minimum limit for markup, or some other obstruction. Essentially a small group of dealers own all the dealerships in the state, they don't want anyone trespassing on 'their' territory.
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Because Texas law states that auto dealerships must be independently owned and operated from the auto manufacturer-- (a dealer franchise just has an agreement to sell a particular car... but they still have no ties to the manufacturer.)
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a mockery of the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
this kind of criminal behavior from our gov makes us look like fools.
how can we bomb the shit out of people around the world to bring them freedom when we don't even have it at home?
NOLA (Score:2)
They aren't jumping through hoops... (Score:4, Funny)
Tesla's in Texas (Score:5, Interesting)
I like Texas, but they have some of the worst legislature and blue laws in the nation. Two taht come to mind frmo my days living in San Antonio:
Burger King came into San Antonio back in the early 80's, but there was already a burger chain in San Antonio called Whopper Burger which was locally owned. During the ensuing 2 year legal battle by BK, they had stores but they had no signs. It looked like a BK, but it couldn't say Burger King anywhere because the local chains big burger was called the King Whopper. You'd go to the unmarked BK drive through and order a Whopper and they would say "sir, we don't have them, we call them a Deluxe"! THey even had to wrap it in clear plactic because the BK wrapper had Whopper or Bruger or King onit! Talk about stupid. BK finally won and bought out the other chain.
Then there were the blue laws, where you could go to the store on Sunday but not buy certain things. You could by a hammer at Home Depot, but you couldn't buy the nails on Sunday. Batteries! You could buy a battery opreated device, but not the batteries, on Sunday. My car died and I needed to buy a new battery but could not becasue it was sunday, I hade to jump start or leave it running until midnight, then go to the 24 autoparts place and get one at 12:01 in th morning! You could buy baby formula, but not diapers. Insane! The would even rope of the sections in the stores with hanners that read "never on a Sunday". I once picked up a small package of nails at a 7=11 and the cleark told me taht he could sell them to me and if I persitied he would have to call the cops, but you could buy beer!
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Classic hypocrisy (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a perfect example of America's hypocrisy (Score:4, Interesting)
Get from another state? (Score:3)
Wouldn't just going to another state to buy one be faster?
Heck, couldn't you have it shipped to your state from another state? (or if not technically shipped, pay someone to drive it there for you.)
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That's the great thing about electric motors: max torque is at zero Km/h.
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Let do 100 miles and see who crosses the finish line first.
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That's a company store. A dealership is an "independent" third party that also takes a cut of the sale. I don't know how they rationalize requiring car manufacturers to sell through a dealer. If it continues to happen, it will become a big election issue because the model S is one of the most highly reviewed cars and they're trying to stop Texans from buying them.
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They can't inhibit speech protected by the first amendment, however they CAN legislate trade and commerce. For example, we already have laws that prohibit false advertising without first amendment issues. If the companies display the logo, they will be fined under the law.
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Oh ans sir, I almost forgot, but it might interest you to know that someone may have neglected to remove the keys from the ignition of that car over there, and it is our policy not to press charges for people who, should they steal it, return it in a timely manner...
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Seems to me it doesn't matter who the person is that lobbied, they AND the Texas legislature have removed a basic part of the free market in order to protect a segment of rich businessmen. Same old same old. Republicans say they are against big government but they act otherwise.
I think there are ignorant people screaming on
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Progress often means the status quo becomes outdated.
Who the fuck likes a car salesman anyway? I can't imagine there is a lot of support to retain those jobs.