Immigration Bill Passes the Senate, Includes More H-1B Visas 274
An anonymous reader writes "While the landmark immigration bill (full text PDF), which recently passed the U.S. Senate, is being hailed as bringing crucial reforms that will vastly improve the state of immigration in this country, there is a provision in it that is seeing relatively little discussion: section 4101, a 'market-based' increase in the amount of H-1B visas for skilled workers. 'The pitched arguments of both sides, which are likely to resurface in the House when it takes up its version of an immigration overhaul, cloud a complicated reality. There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole. If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.'"
Oh Sure. More Supply == More Demand (Score:5, Insightful)
> If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers
Of course. Isn't that a basic law of economic theory? As the supply of labor increases so do salaries.
I have some doubts.
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Re:Oh Sure. More Supply == More Demand (Score:4, Interesting)
"If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers"
Not only do I find that claim dubious, it's completely beside the point. At least one recent study discussed here on Slashdot, possibly more, said THEIR IS NO SHORTAGE of qualified technical workers in the United States. Some corporations just want more H1-Bs because they're cheaper.
HAH (Score:5, Insightful)
There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
Written by someone that obviously has never worked in the tech industry.
Fact: H1-Bs are abused to artificially suppress wages in sponsoring countries. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a program to help immigration, but the way it has been implemented, enforced, and maintained is causing serious harm to the U.S. economy.
If you need citations for this, you're at least as clueless as the bought and paid for government approving expansion of this legitimized abuse.
Re:HAH (Score:5, Insightful)
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Actually, if you need citations for this, you're thinking critically.
If you don't think many citations have been posted here in the past, you're being deliberately obtuse. For starters Google "Norman Matloff" - hours of fun reading. I used to post specific links and quotes, but at this point it's ridiculous. "Prove it" is a zombie line, killed a thousand times and still coming back.
Re:HAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Slashdot alone has been collecting anecdotal evidence for... 15 years now...? I think it's been 15 anyways...
There have also been videos of presentations by firms who work in this area that teach companies how not to hire americans (You can google that). If their really was no advantage to hiring H1-B over a US worker, then why would companies go out of their way to disqualify US workers...?
I think they real factor in "recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers" is that the few who do get in as US workers are the top of the crop and the rest simply are left to pick there way through other fields after getting their expensive degrees.
If you need citations for this (Score:3)
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Perhaps if you wish to argue agains that statement you could provide some empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
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Redundant. See responses to above SirGarlon above.
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I can say with certainty that the H1Bs are not displacing anyone in NYC. We are all desperately trying to hire competent engineers.
Throw more dead presidents at them - people will do almost anything for enough money. Surely a city full of self-described capitalists should understand that concept, or does that only apply when the market favors them? Like the bankers who were all for capitalism and rugged individualism until they asked the government to bail their sorry asses out, employers facing rising tech salaries go running to nanny government to help them. Wah, we don't wanna pay more for the hired help, it might cut into our multi
have an H-1B min wage and or open job swtiching (Score:3)
have an H-1B min wage and or open job switching aka the (worker owns the H-1B).
The min wage can be like 50k+ forced overtime pay maybe at the 100k+ level no forced OT pay.
Some H-1B are abused with low pay and or lots of foreced OT.
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I agree if you double or triple those numbers.
For type H1B tech jobs $50k is basically a pittance.
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Well at least 50K + ot is an min and under that it opens room for US workers to have a good starting wage.
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Depends on the job. It might quickly mean lots of jobs now only pay $50k when they used to pay more.
Simply make them pay some multiple of the current labor board numbers for that job avoid this. Index it to inflation and compare 5 years down the road. Any slip in wage would mean reducing the number of H1Bs.
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just saying 50K + forced OT pay as a base line some areas may need cost of living add ones and inflation add ons. Maybe even move the base line to 75K.
But that will stop the H-1B's working for say $11-$13 hr under the staffing firms.
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It's a lot easier than that.
Make the visa permanent. Allow the worker to work for any employer.
If there really is an IT shortage and we need to import labor, we should actually import labor instead of renting it.
Evidence cuts both ways (Score:2)
There is no evidence that there is a general "shortage" of tech workers either. Sure, there are spot shortages, but those are necessary to give the flooded niches room to move. If you plug the spot shortages with "guest" workers, then citizens in flooded niches can't get them.
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Care to mention which study? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
Apparently the author is unfamiliar with Internet search engines and/or the name Norman Matloff. You'll find plenty of empirical evidence.
If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.
Would the author care to mention the name of the study, who it was performed by, or even (*gasp*) provide a link? Otherwise a reference to "one recent study" has no credibility whatsoever.
If you're going to shove a line of bull at people, at least have the respect to make it seem a little credible. Propaganda like this is just plain insulting. I'd rather have somebody be honest enough to say "Screw you, the tech billionaires won, courtesy of the propaganda they pay for and the bribes they give their sycophants in congress. If you don't like it you can eat sh*t."
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Would the author care to mention the name of the study, who it was performed by, or even (*gasp*) provide a link? Otherwise a reference to "one recent study" has no credibility whatsoever.
The OP was quoting from the NY Times article that was linked to in the post. There are even quote marks in the post to indicate that. The times article gives a link to the study: http://www.people.hbs.edu/wkerr/Kerr_Kerr_Lincoln%20Feb2013.pdf [hbs.edu] .
One could blame the OP for not providing some personal commentary on the article that he or she quoted, but you can't blame the OP for not citing the study. On the other hand, one can and should blame the reporter who wrote the Times article for not summarizing the st
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One more thing,
The study says that "there is a higher departure rate of older workers in STEM occupations with greater young skilled immigration into the firm. This heightened old/young differential is especially pronounced for workers earning over $75,000 a year."
Why didn't the NY Times reporter mention that?
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He did mention it - he just got it wrong. FTA:
If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.
I doubt reporters read these studies they cite in any detail, probably just getting a brief summary from somebody who supposedly has. In all fairness though the article does begin and end with a discussion of age discrimination, albeit in that anecdotal human interest style beloved of most reporters. All in all it's not a bad article. There are certainly many points I'd refute, but it's hardly mindless cheerleading for H-1B's.
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"If anything, one recent study suggests"
This makes it sound like they had to dig through a lot of studies to find one that supported their belief.
I doubt they bother. It's so much easier to pull a study from one's posterior, or call up your favorite lobbyists paid by tech billionaires. 2+2=5? No problem. How many studies and experts do you want?
What difference does it make? (Score:3)
The number of CS undergraduates closely mirrors the demand for workers. Hiring H1-Bs just reduces the number of young Americans who study CS. In the end, it doesn't really effect people already working in the field.
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It is *very* clear that there aren't enough American workers to supply demand, which is why they quickly become too expensive.
H1B solves this for companies, because talented foreign workers will do their jobs for less money, but in the end that only helps a little and the rest goes to outsourcing.
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It is *very* clear that there aren't enough American workers to supply demand
How is it clear? What is your evidence?
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To be clear, the "demand" is on the business side, and it's for IT workers that only make $8-10 an hour so the CEO can shave a few million off the personnel budget and buy himself another yacht. The evidence for that is crystal clear: wages are down, unemployment is up, and companies are still importing cheap labor because they "can't find qualified people".
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Wait, what? (Score:4, Insightful)
If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.'"
Those same people seem to think that NAFTA really helps American's as well, but our economy in shambles for well over a decade seems to prove them wrong. And no, I will not bend logic to suit their purposes as they do to suit themselves.
Providing lower paying jobs for non citizens while taking away jobs from US Citizens does not increase pay for US Citizens. The fact is that it reduces US jobs and harms the economy. The Henry Ford model was right and we have Detroit and Flint's economy and collapses to show he was correct. These people are just idiots, and it's too bad that so many suckers actually believe their bullspit.
Karma, it hurts. (Score:2, Insightful)
Too bad there aren't even more (unlimited) H1-Bs.
Then all the left wing techies who are all happy and gang-ho about a bunch of low-skilled immigrants flooding USA (because they don't hurt their precious white collar jobs) would suddenly realize that Yes, People Get Hurt when you import a bunch of cheap workforce in a bad economy.
At a time when we need it most, we're sold out (Score:4, Insightful)
This isn't even so much about "individual" needs of individuals. This is about the health of a nation's economy. People who understand that money is more about flow than about hoarding (accumulating wealth) also understand that when people are not working and are not making enough money, they aren't spending money. This causes a reactive affect which radiates out everywhere in every direction.
Now we're opening the doors even wider to bring in more people which will put more locals out of work, raising unemployment and underemployment and those people reacting with the rest of the economy. Additionally, this brings a much larger number of people who will require social/government programs to survive.
This feels "intentional" and if feels planned. But one part isn't planned -- it's corporate greed and short-sightedness. They have no sense of responsibiity for what they are doing to the economy -- an economy in which those very businesses cannot exist for long without. That's a kind of given natural law. The real decision makers, the same ones who spend orders of magnitude more money than they collect in taxes on weapons we don't need, have decided they would rather help a small few at the expense of the nation's economy.
Meanwhile? The people who are the most affected? They're bitching about what's on "reality TV" and the news of the latest xbox. Sheeple.
It can't be stopped because not enough people are going to actually do anything about it. A person writes "shame on [the banks]" in chalk and getting charged with a crime that could end up with years in prison. We're in a real problem situation and the leadership of the country is unable to stop the train wreck that is happening all around us.
Have a nice weekend.
Green Card (Score:5, Interesting)
If they still don't make it easier for people who go there LEGALLY to work to eventually get a green card (no tons of money, no company sponsorship or getting married, no years of waiting) then fuck it, it still isn't worth going there to work. I worked there for six years and moved back to Canada because it would have taken forever to get a green card and being indentured to a company for the duration. Fuck that. If they can give green cards to illegal immigrants and not those there legally, fuck them.
Most countries will give you a landed immigrant status (same as a green card) if you work there LEGALLY more than a set time (usually four or five years), keep your nose clean, and don't mooch off the government for anything. If that isn't the case, even though I get recruiters calling me from there regularly because of my good reputation in the city I worked in, I won't go back there to work ever. The odd vacation maybe but that's it. Not worth the stress of worrying about having to relocate your family out of the country within a month if the contract ends suddenly. Nor the stress of companies feeling like the fuck you because they think you are captive for the same reason. A big three letter telecom convinced me of all this because of the last statement.
Re:Green Card (Score:4, Insightful)
Thats kind of the issue I have with these bills. You have millions of people who fully ignored laws they knew existed, in many cases living underground or at least off the map to some extent...but then they make friends, build a family, then everyone starts crying if you threaten to kick them out for what they did once they're caught.
During that time, people who did everything right, go through the appropriate processes and so on and so forth, have to dish out enormous amount of money and wait wait wait wait wait.
I do have a green card, but I "married" into it. And even with that, its taking forever and the process is annoying and expensive.
I know these people don't have it nearly as good as I do, and smuggling yourself in the country is far from fun, but they're basically being rewarded for having done it. And what about all the foreign people who stayed in their countries because they KNEW it was illegal to come here without appropriate visa? You're basically sending them a clear message: "You followed our laws. Thank you and screw you!"
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And why exactly should immigration be available to everyone? if you are unskilled and don't have family, what exactly are you bringing? And its not cultural diversity, because there are plenty of people with in demand skills that quality for visas, and even more that have (legal) families here. Same for a lot of other countries.
So what else?
bs (Score:4, Insightful)
There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
If this were true, they'd be given green cards instead H1B. With H1B, they are indentured servants. Getting fired means getting deported for them. Stop forcing Americans to compete with indentured servants in technology and then you'll see more Americans going into those fields. Even if you accept that they don't compete on salary, they still compete on work conditions.
Nothing to see here. Move along... move along... (Score:2)
And in other news, the bill has been declared DOA on arrival at the House of Representatives, where the Speaker of the House has announced that they intend to do their own thing, perhaps later this year, or possibly next year where a bill can be used as fodder for the 2014 campaigns.
Meh.
Multiply by 3 (Score:3)
Tech workers need lobbying organization (Score:3)
Many industries have a lobbying group:
1) Doctors have the American Medical Association
2) Teachers have the National Education Association
3) Realtors have the National Association of Realtors
4) Senior citizens have the AARP
And so on and so forth. [opensecrets.org]
The employing companies certainly are represented in Washington DC. Which is why we get the system we have. There's the IEEE [opensecrets.org] which gave a whopping 70-80 thousand dollars a year to politicians. The ACM - I couldn't even find them as a lobbying organization at all.
We can whine about it. But tech workers need a lobbying organization. Politicians do what's in their own personal best interests. And you can't expect them to vote against big donors. They won't even talk to you if you're not a sizable contributor or don't have some block of votes to present to them.
The whole idea is to "displace American engineers" (Score:2)
Think about it.
If American engineers are good enough, why import anyone?
If they're not good enough, what are they saying -- foreign engineers are better? For what reason?
The point is that other nations have less developed economies and so it's cheaper to import these people and then drop them when they hit 40.
Either way however, an American job is displaced and you're worth less as a result.
Re:There are three kinds of lies. (Score:5, Interesting)
Precisely, I'm curious as to how they explain all the people that give up on the IT sector because they can't get a job due to the ridiculously narrow job requirements that even entry level positions have.
I'd be fine with a lift on the H-1B visa limits if it required them to actually demonstrate that they had made real efforts to hire Americans first. And that the requirements they were posting were reasonable for the job they were hiring for.
As it is, the job requirements seem more there to show that they're "trying" to hire Americans while ensuring that as few Americans as possible are actually qualified for the job.
Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffing f (Score:2)
Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffing firms that seem to only do keywords or say take down a list of things that IT does even if it's a one off or just helping out and put it on the need 5 years list.
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Like the HR person after confirming more than five years of experience with C# asking if I have any .net experience...
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At least they didn't ask you for 10 years of hands on .NET experience in 2005....
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HR folks have always been this clueless. Years ago I was applying for a job as a VMS system manager and they wanted to know if I knew anything about DCL. About on par with the recent job ads I've seen for Sr. UNIX administrators that need to know shell.
Re:Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffin (Score:5, Insightful)
people that companies REALLY want to hire talk to the group who needs the help, THEN they get sent to HR for a nice rubber stamp. HR is for the cattle.
Re:Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffin (Score:5, Insightful)
HR is for the cattle.
Indeed. Most of our people were hired either through referrals, or through our internship program. Less than 10% were hired by submitting a resume to HR. Instead of shotgunning resumes, you should be using your network. If you don't have a network, you need to start building one: go to meetups, volunteer for a FOSS project, etc.
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Re:There are three kinds of lies. (Score:5, Insightful)
The ridiculously narrow job requirements are specifically designed so they *don't* find Americans to fill their jobs. They want an excuse to hire H1-B indentured servants, and to go to Congress claiming that there are no Americans to fill them.
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I have friends who worked on H1Bs at plenty of Silicon Valley companies, where a lot of the workforce were not Americans. Their salaries were not that of slave workforce at all, but still allowed the companies to reduce cost a lot in their intial stages, then they grew
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When CEO's of failing companies are nailing down in excess of 7 digits of income no one wants to hear about how the IT guys making 100 grand are paid too much. All the money they save by hiring H1B's goes into the salaries of the high execs at the company.
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Re:There are three kinds of lies. (Score:5, Insightful)
My issues with the H-1B visa program is that it doesn't fix any of the problems that it tries to address and probably creates new issues.
The basic problem H-1B visa tries to address: "There are not enough mediocre engineers for our current business needs." The H-1B visa brings in some temporary employees to fix the short term shortage. But when the visa expires they go home and the company has to hire a new H-1B employee to replace him (remember there is a shortage of qualified applicants) and probably has increased their need of mediocre engineers during the past few years. There is no incentive for the company to fix the problem but instead to just apply the H-1B bandaid to it.
If the company hiring a H-1B visa holder was forced to train workers that would take over the position then the H-1B visa program would probably be rarely used and only when there was an actual need. Or if the company could only use H-1B visa employees/contractors every 2 years out of 5 so that they knew that they were ineligible for the H-1B bandaid when the current employees leave. Or even make the visa permanent, the visa holder isn't forced to leave the country and is free to find other employers whenever they wish; broader immigration issues this would fix the short term problem by just importing more people.
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I've personally switched jobs twice while under H1-B, getting something like 10%+ raise each time. The visa is transferable under 2 weeks for an extra fee, and transfers are not subjected to quotas. There is a theoretical limit of 6 years (3 years times 2) with H1-B but it definitely does not mean you have to be tied to any specific company. At least that's how it was for me 6 years ago. While a H1-B is tied to employment, you have 'reasonable time' to leave the country, or get an other job. I've seen someo
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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A system with too many H1-B's will implode onto itself when communication becomes unmanageable. Same thing as outsourcing being brought back on shore after a massive exodus and a plethora of unmanageable code.
Want job security? Support that code, the $5 an hour savings translate into a $40-$50 support person later.
Also, managing Mickey D's sounds pretty easy... if it paid more... hmmm.
No it won't (Score:3, Informative)
Plus code written by slaves is cheap. So Cheap I can throw out your old code and start from scratch and still come out ahead. The last piece to the puzzle is to remember that for the top 1% who are pushing these things through they own a piece of just about every major
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Also, managing Mickey D's sounds pretty easy
That is an *awful* job. Think of people wanting 5 star service for 2 bucks. All day every day. Then you have a set of employees that you are lucky will show to work today. You dont dare fire them as you have to have *someone* to call when the previous 3 guys said they are 'sick'. You think IT guys have it bad with overtime and crazy requirements? Go work for a mc'ds for a few months as salary.
The real issue is the gov has created an artificial scarcity. Thu
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drag their sorry asses through middle America to see the seeds they have sown
It is really, Really, REALLY hard to convince the people who believe in Free Trade. They were taught the theory in school. Often they were taught it or had it reinforced in Comm school while getting an MBA. I had an argument about this with somebody taking Comm school while I was an undergrad. This was back in the 90s, when Perot was running. It was all "why should I listen to an undergrad. What do you know?" and I was like
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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"trying" to hire Americans sounds unenforceable, thus it got removed.
Here's my view on the disconnect in skills though... we're trying to hire an ERP person, we had a home grown person who's gone. We've been unable to do so... why? ERP systems are popular and common at large organizations, but who thinks of listing ERP on their resume? SAP sure, ERP no. There is so much crap floating around that after a job I've gone back to my notes to figure out all the little things I've done that can land me somewhere
There are law firms (Score:3)
Saying "I'd be fine with a lift on the H-1B visa limits if it required them to actually demonstrate that they had made real efforts to hire Americans first." is pointless. It's not just wishful thinking, its fundamentally ignoring the purpose of the system...
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My company just underwent some major changes. We had open positions before, but we recently had a number of people hit their 1-year cliffs and leave, so we now have a lot of open positions and I'm one of the people that's been designated as a hiring manager. I can tell you that we have zero intention of hiring H1-Bs. If someone already has the paperwork from a previous job, we'll consider them, but we need people now and aren't willing to sponsor.
And yet HR still insists on writing the overly-narrow job des
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That's right! (Score:3, Funny)
How's that BA in English working out for you?
You tell 'em!
There's only 3 degrees universities should offer:
1.Engineering - ONLY Electrical, chemical and petroleum.
2. Computer science.
3. Nursing.
And there's only 3 universities worth going to: Harvard, Yale and MIT. Everyone else should just close down.
Other than that, college is just a waste of time and money.
We need a society of technologists and people to clean the bedpans of the old people.
For all the stupid people who couldn't get into those programs, well, there's always Walmart. And if you spea
IT needs apprenticeships / trades schools as CS (Score:2)
CS is not IT and going to school for Computer science will give you skill gaps.
It has lot's of hands on stuff that is a good fit for an apprenticeships.
OK, man, You got me ranting! (Score:3, Interesting)
CS is not IT and going to school for Computer science will give you skill gaps.
It has lot's of hands on stuff that is a good fit for an apprenticeships.
Ok, I posed the GP and it was meant to be satire.
You're right, Actually, back in the old days, college WASN'T for career training. It was for an education to better and refine oneself.
Engineer? You apprenticed or went to a TRADE school because engineering is a trade.
So is medicine.
Law? Read about the founding fathers. If they went to college, they would get some liberal arts degree and then apprentice with a lawyer and "read law" - no law school. See. Bio of John Q. Adams.
CS? I'm on the fence on that one
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Hear, hear. One of my college professors told me that of of the purposes of a college education -- perhaps the task -- was to teach you to learn on your own, i.e., to embrace life-long learning. Nowadays... nobody in HR believes that you were actually able to learn something without attending an expensive class -- more and more on your dime -- and taking a test to get an
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IT's not racist by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Stop forcing things to fit into you narrow, preconceived, notions.
Re:Discrimination... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think Mexico has only people of one race in it. I am pretty sure there are Mexican citizens of many races.
I oppose that program as well, but I am not sure it is racist. I think those who implemented it were trying to be racist, but were too racist to know that Mexico has other races.
Sorry, but you're wrong about discrimination. (Score:4, Informative)
The U.S. government runs a lottery that gives out an additional 50,000 VISA's per year beyond the level playing field of normal immigration, but people from Mexico arent allowed to win any of them, and you are there claiming its not racist by any stretch of the imagination?
Really?
What fucking distortion field do you live in?
He's probably living in the distortion field perpetuated by both the CIA World Fact Book and Wikipedia, in which it is well known that Mexico isn't comprised of a single race any more than Los Angeles is comprised of a single race, thus making it impossible to discriminate against a particular, single race by discriminating against all of Mexico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_people#Today [wikipedia.org]
Or maybe it was the one where, under NAFTA, there's already an economic agreement in place for non-professional workers, and professional workers get TN-1 visa rather than H-1B visa?
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1274.html [state.gov]
You know what? Those TN-1 visas discriminate against Europeans, who are require to return to their own countries after a period of time, whereas a TN-1 can be renewed again and again, indefinitely, without ever actually leaving the US. Those bastards! Favoring Mexico and Canada over Germany and New Zealand!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status [wikipedia.org]
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That's okay, we're making them Americans. Problem solved. In fact, I think we should make everyone in Mexico American citizens then we can tax them and hunt down the drug cartel people without silly things like Mexican laws getting in the way. No more need for a stupid fence along the Southern border, we can tax the fuck out of all the US corps that have built factories there, not to mention sicking OSHA, the EPA, the FLRA and a few other Federal agencies on them. The new border at the Southern end of M
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It's not 'racist' to try and diversify your immigration policy. If 90% of your immigrants are from one or two countries it's not racist to put a cap on any one country's applications in order to give others a chance as well.
"Racist" would be negatively discriminating against a race. Mexico and China aren't being discriminated against in the slightest, if anything they are getting preferential treatment. In exchange for the status quo which is preferential, they save a few spots for everyone else.
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Mexico and China aren't being discriminated against in the slightest, if anything they are getting preferential treatment.
What preferential treatment is that?
Surely you dont mean how these same people are also limited by the 7% cap?
When did treating each personal equally start being called preferential treatment?
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I used to tell people computers, tech, programing were the way to go when they told me they were starting college now if they ask I tell them to find something that can't be outsourced.
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i wonder if there is a degree to get unemployment benefits. you won't get a job after graduating might as well use the tax dollars the h1b will generate to sit on your ass and get unemployment. /facetious
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Actually, they are required to pay the H-1B visa holders the prevailing wages, the real advantage is that they don't have to give them raises or as many perks to get them into the job. And can use those workers to then hold back the prevailing wage, since they're unlikely to demand a raise, even if they would normally have earned a raise for their work.
Re:WHAT?!?!?! (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, they are required to pay the H-1B visa holders the prevailing wages
Laws are meaningless if they're not enforced, and that one isn't.
Re:No Worries (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean there's an opposition party? Wow. Normally I side more with the D's than the R's (not that I have much faith in either), but this time I'm damn glad there's an R majority in the House.
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You mean there's an opposition party
When it comes to 'hot-button' issues like immigration and gun control, yes.
I know, I find it surprising as well.
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I find Gridlock to be a good thing. The best Congress is the one that doesn't do a fucking thing.
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You have a good point. Instead of a protest sign or a bumper sticker that demands congress do something, I should get one that demands they do nothing. I'd probably be able to sell a lot of them too.
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Ah, if there's a shortage of skilled workers requiring an increase in H-1Bs, we must be seeing huge increases in salaries to fill all the openings.
Shhh, economic principles should only be applied when they benefit the top 0.01%. In all other cases they may be ignored.
Re:Not going to pass the House (Score:5, Insightful)
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America is a nation built by immigrants.
If you had any understanding of what's being discussed here, you'd know that people are complaining about guest worker programs, not immigration programs.
I guess Canada will lead the way
Lead the way in what, Ph.D.'s driving cabs?
America devolves into a cesspool of stupid white inbreds
News flash: America is not a "white" country. The fastest growing "racial" group is Hispanics. Even without any immigration it won't be long before "white" people are not a majority in this country, and anybody with half a brain doesn't give a damn one way or the other.
I also find this obsession with artificial co
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This shows a poor understanding of the problem.
The issue is that we have >7.5% unemployment and it's worse if you consider other factors like labor force participation, number of people on food stamps, underemployment and wages have remained flat. It also has been said that the student loan business might be the next bubble that pops.
Because of the raw data, why do we need to let millions of more people into the country, while we already have millions of people on the sidelines ready to work that ar
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What field and what location are we talking about? Lack of willingness (or simply not being able to for various reason) to relocate is definitely the only reason a qualified IT worker would have trouble getting a job.
Even if you were out of the market for 10+ years (I had a male friend who decided to raise his daughters at home instead of the stereotypical mother doing it...and he was able to come straight back in. It took a few months to get back into the interviewing groove, but not all that long compared
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Even if you were out of the market for 10+ years (I had a male friend who decided to raise his daughters at home instead of the stereotypical mother doing it...and he was able to come straight back in.
What year was that?
In the big tech centers
Specifically which big tech centers are you talking about?
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One should be able to telecommute for IT-type work, especially for jobs that don't need hands on work.
I passed on a job in NYC because once I crunched the numbers, I wouldn't be much better off in the long run. Plus, I am getting married in 3 months so my fiance would have to quit and find a new job as well. So, that makes it a little less cut and dry.
If telecommuting was an option, I would have happily taken a significant raise, but still would have been way under their budget - everybody wins.
Re:H-1B have much lower school cost (Score:4, Insightful)
and they are not loaded down student loands
And therefore what? Shun foreigners to help perpetuate wildly excessive [wikimedia.org] education cost growth? Or ...and here comes a new thought... change domestic education to stop the relentless growth of costs.
We flail about trying to pin the costs of healthcare and education on each other while the costs of these products annually balloon to record breaking levels. Educated people somehow elide any thought about why the costs of these things compound themselves while honing ever more hate filled arguments about who is supposed to pay to a fine point.
That relentless growth (Score:2)
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Here's how you know you're a moron:
The H-1B visa lasts for 3 or 6 years. And you have to leave the country when it's done.
Your story might make sense if it was a permanent visa. But it's not.
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H1Bs are not good for the US, they are good for a segment of the US population at least in the short term, those who own companies. H1Bs are used because they're cheaper and work longer hours and hence cut my company's overheads. I should no longer have to pay the overheads associated with training them so I pay fewer taxes to support training institutions such as Universities as most are trained overseas anyway. It really depends upon your perspective.
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This is why your government is pushing for this, so stop being paranoid.
Our government is pushing for this because our corporations (which control our government) are pushing for this, because it will help them make money. It wouldn't help them make money unless they could pay the employees less, because there's no shortage of potential employees who are already citizens, unless you refuse to pay them decently. Who needs to be paranoid? It's not a secret that legislation is written and then sponsored (economically) by corporations in the USA.
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America does really not have enough Electrical, Mechanical and Civil (maybe more disciplines, but these are the ones I have close friends in) engineers.
Evidence?