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Mars Space Politics

Russian Official Implies Foul Play In Mars Probe Failure 451

Posted by Soulskill
from the stop-launching-space-junk dept.
Back in November, Russia launched the Phobos-Grunt probe on a mission to return a soil sample from Mars' largest moon. Sadly, the probe malfunctioned, and never left orbit. It's due to crash into the Indian Ocean this weekend. An anonymous reader points out some interesting comments from a Russian official, Vladimir Popovkin, who obliquely suggested that interference from other countries was a possible cause of the failure. Quoting: "Mr. Popovkin’s remarks to the newspaper Izvestia were the first high-level suggestion of nefarious interference. A retired commander of Russia’s missile warning system had speculated in November that strong radar signals from installations in Alaska might have damaged the spacecraft. 'We don’t want to accuse anybody, but there are very powerful devices that can influence spacecraft now,' Mr. Popovkin said in the interview. 'The possibility they were used cannot be ruled out.' ... Mr. Popovkin did not directly implicate the United States in the interview. But he said 'the frequent failure of our space launches, which occur at a time when they are flying over the part of Earth not visible from Russia, where we do not see the spacecraft and do not receive telemetric information, are not clear to us,' an apparent reference to the Americas."
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Russian Official Implies Foul Play In Mars Probe Failure

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  • by elrous0 (869638) * on Thursday January 12, 2012 @11:54AM (#38674102)

    You want to fuck with us, fine. Build your own rocket, yankees.

    • by alphatel (1450715) * on Thursday January 12, 2012 @11:57AM (#38674138)
      We are talking about Russia where a significant portion of the residents still believe the moon landing was a fake [huffingtonpost.com] 40 years later.

      Of course it would be remiss for anyone to rule out the US doing nasty things with technology, since they refuse to comment on anything but always turn up red-handed.
      • by Dexter Herbivore (1322345) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:02PM (#38674196) Journal
        And 6% of the American poulation [gallup.com] too.
      • by ColdWetDog (752185) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:03PM (#38674204) Homepage

        Basically the guy is blaming HAARP (it happened over Alaska when we couldn't see it).

        Right. Now, how did we manage to get the satellite to point it's solar panels away from the sun [theregister.co.uk]? It's just the standard post Vodka blame game. I don't think anyone is really worried about it.

        • by Baloroth (2370816) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:14PM (#38674388)

          Wait, Alaska is pretty damn close to Russian territory. How would they not not be able to see their satellite while it was over HAARP? An honest question, adblock doesn't seem to be letting me get past the paywall like it usually does, so I can't read TFA.

          • by The Grim Reefer (1162755) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:24PM (#38674520)
            Vladimir Putin (takes his shirt off and shakes fist at the sky): "DAMN YOU PALIN!!!"
            • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

              by Anonymous Coward

              Vladimir Putin (takes his shirt off and shakes fist at the sky): "DAMN YOU PALIN!!!"

              Thats not the end of it either; Sarah Palin saw that from her house, and Todd got pretty upset at Putin's peacocking. Now Todd is eyeing Russia for a possible takeover by snowmobile. Their satellites don't stand a chance, they should just give them up now.

          • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:13PM (#38675204)

            Worth noting there are almost two dozen HAARP-like, top secret and classified installations all over the world. All projecting massive eneergy levels into the atmosphere for "research". These are owned and operated by a handful of countries, including Russia.

            What is know about these projects is that both the US DoD and USAF have been directly associated with all US installations and leaked + FOI documents indicate both the DoD and USAF histofically planned to use these facilities for climate/weather influence and/or control. Its also known since these early days they have branched out into various other types of "atmospheric research", which is currently classified. To put it bluntly, this in no way sounds like the typical Russian hot-air. Chances are reasonable, intentional or otherwise, one of these stations may have unduly influenced the operation of their rocket.

            Now if we take very reasonable assumptions based on established facts and combine a little paranoia, we can come up with an interesting theory. NASA is basically defunct and there are powerful interests in the US who absolutely do not want to rely on Russia for space access. It wasn't until NASA' immediate space access was drawn into question that Russia's rockets suddenly started having problem; despite a long history of relatively high reliability. Worse yet, this easily falls well into the US' dirty tricks+plausable deniabilty combination it loves so much.

            Tin foil hat? Maybe. But it doesn't mean its wrong either.

            • by Nutria (679911) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @02:02PM (#38675936)

              this in no way sounds like the typical Russian hot-air.

              Why in fuck's sake would we (a) sabotage a scientific mission, and (b) piss off the people who carry us to the ISS?

              Chances are reasonable, intentional or otherwise, one of these stations may have unduly influenced the operation of their rocket.

              Do you have *any* rational evidence to support this hooch-addled paranoia?

              • Why in fuck's sake would we (a) sabotage a scientific mission, and (b) piss off the people who carry us to the ISS?

                Indeed. It's quite obvious this is all the doing of SPECTRE; but government officials never listen!

            • by mbkennel (97636) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @02:12PM (#38676072)

              "Chances are reasonable, intentional or otherwise, one of these stations may have unduly influenced the operation of their rocket."

              Actually that's insane. What is the (a) physics of doing so? (Heating the atmosphere over a wide patch is what they do to study ionosphere) What's the cross section of power applied directly on the satellite? Notice that when you want to aim something precisely (and hitting a satellite in orbit requires LOTS of precision) you need to use short wavelengths, like say an optical laser, and then you have to precisely compensate for atmospheric aberrations. The radio research facilities instead use wavelengths of a number of meters long, which of course diffracts and spreads out just a wee bit more.

              And then what is (b) the motivation for doing so? In detail. Screwing with a scientific probe going to Mars? Dr Strangelove types aren't particularly impressed or care about some nerd spacecraft. What's in it for The Conspirators?

              c) "there are powerful interests in the US who absolutely do not want to rely on Russia for space access" -- but are apparently insufficiently powerful to get the USA to spend the money to fund ongoing operations and develop the next generation simultaneously. Well, since in your conspiracy theory the US *is* in fact dependent on Russia, then why sabotage Russian rockets? Why not sabotage Russian rockets only after the US gets its space access back?

              And besides, the US is is not dependent on Russia for space access overall: the military and intelligence communities happily continue to buy launches on expensive Boeing/Lockheed ULA rockets, it's just that NASA can't afford (isn't given funding for) these ones and will have to hitch rides on bargain basement SpaceX hardware in a few years.

            • by iggymanz (596061) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @03:07PM (#38676762)

              utter bullshit, the research at HAARP is open, scientists come from around the world to conduct experiments there with no security clearance, public tours are given, you can go tour the HAARP facilities.

        • by Artraze (600366) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:25PM (#38674542)

          > It's just the standard post Vodka blame game. I don't think anyone is really worried about it.

          The problem is, tossing blame like this is the first refuge of incompetent government. The next is constructing enemies, and then finally war. Redirect the rage of the people you ruined to someone else, and rather then remove you from power they will grant you even more.

          Given how Russia has been behaving recently this is very worrying. If they have to blame America because their probe is backwards, then what about when something bigger fails? How long before the people have a (renewed) hate of the USA?

          It's not a step to a new cold war, but it disconcertingly similar to the behavior we saw then.

          • by TapeCutter (624760) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @08:39PM (#38680388) Journal

            The problem is, tossing blame like this is the first refuge of incompetent government.

            Except it's not the government, it's one politician. Surely whatever country you come from has a few politicians that make similarly ridiculous statements for domestic consumption. I know if you live in the US you will be under a constant barrage of such bullshit in the form of political attack ads. Similarly, what we have here is an obscure blow-hard trying to look appealing to Russian nationalists.

            How long before the people have a (renewed) hate of the USA?

            Any Russian who swallows this guy's story was already anti-US, just like the 'birthers' were anti-Obama long before they started denying his citizenship, or like 'truthers' were anti-Bush long before they started banging on about 'building 7'. In other words what we are looking at is common garden variety propaganda aimed directly at 'useful idiots', and Russia certainly doesn't have a monopoly on propaganda or idiots. None of this means I condone politicians spreading lies and half truths about anything, anywhere, but it's an unfortunate fact of life that propaganda has, and always will be, a primary tool of politics.

            Now IF this was Putin making official speeches with this sort of crap in it, THEN your scenario might have legs. As it stands the GP's "post vodka blame game" is where I'd put my money.

        • by fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:30PM (#38674604) Journal
          I wonder if he knows what he is getting into.

          HAARP is the pet villain of practically every flavor of fun conspiracy lore there is. Weather control? Check. Mind Rays? Check. Communications with the Greys? Check. Interfering with Orgone flows to ensure the success of the fluoridation conspiracy? Check. Guiding black helicopters back to their spawning grounds to mate and reproduce? Check.

          If he thinks that he can just waltz in and grab some time out of HAARP's very busy schedule to have it sabotaging his spacecraft, he has another thing coming. He'll have to fight for HAARP time with practically every conspiracy theorist out there...
        • by Remus Shepherd (32833) <remus@panix.com> on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:45PM (#38674812) Homepage

          point it's solar panels away from the sun?

          Well, theoretically, a very strong radar pulse could cause ionization around the star sensors, which would make the spacecraft unable to tell which way was up and which was down. That would screw up the solar cell deployment pretty badly.

          That's a crazy scenario, about on par with believing that reptiloids control Switzerland, but like all crazy theories there's a tenuous path of logic behind it.

          • by Tiroth (95112) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:08PM (#38675136) Homepage

            Why is this so crazy? Now, I don't actually believe that HAARP has anything to do with this, but HAARP has 3.6 million watts at its disposal, and can concentrate that to achieve an ERP of 5.1 billion watts. If you concentrate enough RF on an electronic device you can screw it up in an almost infinite number of ways.

            • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 12, 2012 @02:07PM (#38676020)

              HAARP is not a directional antenna that can point and "shoot down" a satellite. HAARP is an ionoshphere research program, that's why it only points straight up.

              Secondly, if you can screw up a satellite with radar, then the said satellite will be completely fucked during the next major solar flare.

              Thirdly, the OP idea is crazy because you can still see the sun and at least point the spacecraft in the right direction to the sun!!.

              The bottom line is, there was major spacecraft malfunction. And it is not unique to this satellite. Russians have had malfunctions with Soyuz too, and that is something that is vital to ISS and US has contracted Russians to use Soyuz. Of course you could be for conspiracy theories that US destroyed its own space shuttles like Challenger.

          • ...reptiloids control Switzerland

            Silence John Smallberries! That's top sekrit!

        • Drag (Score:5, Informative)

          by Dan East (318230) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:58PM (#38674974) Homepage Journal

          Right. Now, how did we manage to get the satellite to point it's solar panels away from the sun?

          I thought the theory as to why the spacecraft is in a stable, albeit backwards, orientation was simple: there are enough air molecules in that orbit to apply pressure to the large solar panels, which causes drag and thus rotates the craft so the panels are towards the back. Just like a shuttlecock in badminton.

      • by shoehornjob (1632387) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:38PM (#38674698)
        Think about this for a moment. What possible interest could the United States government have in a probe heading to Mars. We are not in a space race with Russia anymore. If anything we should be sabotaging China's space program. Then again if their space program is anything like their high speed rail program I think they can manage for themselves.
      • We are talking about Russia where a significant portion of the residents still believe the moon landing was a fake [huffingtonpost.com] 40 years later.

        Because Russians know that a significant portion of US residents still believe that fossils are fake and can't imagine people like these landing on the Moon any time soon, not to mention minus fourty years from now. :).

    • by scosco62 (864264)
      And throw away a big piece of revenue? Doubtful.............
  • by DC2088 (2343764) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @11:57AM (#38674148)
    ... Phobos Grunt? We all know what happens on Phobos when you get a grunt up there. IDDQD, Russia, IDDQD!
  • Malice? (Score:5, Informative)

    by nospam007 (722110) * on Thursday January 12, 2012 @11:59AM (#38674160)

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

    • Re:Malice? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Nick Fel (1320709) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:02PM (#38674198)
      Yes, but the question is where does the stupidity lie? Is it in naively blasting out radar signals, or in not properly shielding your sensitive spacecraft? Probably both, but I'd favour the latter, since they know such possibilities exist.
      • Re:Malice? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by iggymanz (596061) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:41PM (#38674742)

        Since HAARP has HF, VHF and UHF, and not satellite microwave systems, the stupidity is clearly on a Russian looking for a scapegoat, who has joined the ranks of scientifically ignorant wingnuts who blame HAARP for everything that was blamed on Satan and Witchcraft 400 years ago

        • Re:Malice? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by ihatewinXP (638000) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:57PM (#38674970)

          I have seen discussions on HARP on Slashdot before - and some interesting comments relating to it that have always stuck with me.

          One story was about a grandfather who worked on HARP - said he told stories of having to be taken to the dentist by armed guard and watched while he went under gas in case he started to talk. Then about 3 posts down someone basically tells the same story and ends with his grandfather telling him: "I dont know exactly what we are building, but it ain't for watching the weather, thats for sure."

          So before we all go "tin foil hat alert!" this may be more than a case of 'whipping up enemies' and 'passing the buck' - this might be a little glimpse into a world we are rarely told of...

          • Re:Malice? (Score:5, Funny)

            by YesIAmAScript (886271) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @02:18PM (#38676164)

            So because HAARP is secret and isn't for watching the weather, that means it is the cause of a Russian Mars probe failure?

            How does logic work in your world?

    • Re:Malice? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by hedwards (940851) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:12PM (#38675186)

      This is one of the reasons why Russia is still best considered a second world nation. And will be for some time.

    • Re:Malice? (Score:4, Informative)

      by k6mfw (1182893) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:39PM (#38675612)

      Yep, exactly. Going to Mars is really hard, heck even getting to orbit is tough. So many things have to work or else the whole thing fails. This spacecraft failure is most likely one particular item that was not thoroughly tested (my personal speculation). It does remind me of a mention in the book "Korolev" by James Harford where it describes when Soviets launched a satellite that could have been the first to detect Van Allen radiation belts. However the tape recorder onboard failed because engineer responsible said no more ground testing is needed (I may have forgot some of the details, don't have the book handy right now). My impression is some of the spacecraft people wanted to do some more tests or add some backup circuitry but the engineer insisted the tape recorder will work (I guess it records signal data for later transmission back to ground stations). Tape recorder failed or the data was out of calibration. But I'm thinking this was very ambitious as those early years was a steep learning curve for both US and USSR.

      If you have not, read the book. It is very detailed, almost have to indulge yourself into "thinking Russian" (i.e. like reading Anna Karenina) since it is a different culture for engineers. http://www.amazon.com/Korolev-Masterminded-Soviet-Drive-America/dp/0471327212 [amazon.com]

      Alrighty I see we have "In Soviet Russia" comments, how about a car analogy? This is /. afterall.

  • Failure... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by QuietLagoon (813062) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:00PM (#38674172)
    Russia should just admit to its failures, and move on. From what I've read, Russia's high-technology infrastructure is held together with band-aids® and chewing gum. They should concentrate upon repairing their space exploration foundation, then make the attempts to explore Mars.
    • by Viol8 (599362) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:04PM (#38674222)

      And with that goes blaming everyone except yourself for your public failures.

    • Re:Failure... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Droog57 (2516452) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:09PM (#38674300) Journal
      Yeah, you are probably right, but remember, the US is still reduced to renting a ride from the Russians to get a man into LEO now that we (stupidly) killed off the STS. Which one is the real failure? What an embarrassment, from "The Country that put a Man on the Moon" to equality with most developing nations..
      • And getting people to LEO is great because... oh yeah...

        • 1) Get to LEO
        • 2) ???
        • 3) profit!
      • Re:Failure... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by khallow (566160) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:54PM (#38674920)

        Yeah, you are probably right, but remember, the US is still reduced to renting a ride from the Russians to get a man into LEO now that we (stupidly) killed off the STS. Which one is the real failure?

        The real failure would have been to keep flying the Shuttle. Even if you ignore that the NASA budget isn't increasing after inflation, you still have to explain why it's better to chuck billions on a few really expensive launches rather than spend that money on actual somewhat useful space activities. You'd also have to explain why we're relying on a vehicle that would be an accident away from ending the program.

        • by hedwards (940851)

          You make it sound like there wasn't good science coming out of the space program. The real problem is that this shutdown is coming at the time when a significant number of astronauts are retiring and it means that we're dependent upon the Russians to provide us with access to space.

          To some extent the same goes for NASA in general I'd wager, you've got this point where all the folks who were hired on in the 60s and 70s are either retired or in the process of retiring and you have nothing for the new hires to

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:00PM (#38674180)
    Most likely, someone came back in a time machine to sabotage the launch to prevent the return of samples to Earth that are contaminated with Martian Hemmorhagic Fever and save billions of people.
  • 'the frequent failure of our space launches, which occur at a time when they are flying over the part of Earth not visible from Russia, where we do not see the spacecraft and do not receive telemetric information, are not clear to us,'

    We are to believe that the Russians are completely blind when the spacecraft are on the other side of the Earth? They have no satellites relaying telemetry? Laughable. (Apparently, so is their space program).

    • by elrous0 (869638) * on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:10PM (#38674318)

      Laughable. (Apparently, so is their space program)

      Well it's not like their joke of a space program put up the first satellite in orbit, the first man (and woman) in space, the first person to orbit the earth, the first moon probe, the first Mars probe, the first Venus probe, or the first space station--or are currently the only country in the world with the capability of launching humans into space. They're SUCH a joke! Let's all laugh at their weak-ass space program. Ha ha ha.

      • by phayes (202222)

        It is not their past achievements that are laughable but the depths of stupidity they are digging into now. Much like their subs, long the pride of their fleet that ended up rusting on the Kola peninsula & then sinking themselves, the Russian space program now has idiots in charge that look for scapegoats instead of seeking to correct their problems.

      • by sxltrex (198448) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:27PM (#38675452)

        Let's take a closer look at this list:

        1) Sputnik 1 (first satellite): 1957
        2) Yuri Gagarin (first man in space, first orbit): 1961
        3) Valentina Tereshkova (first woman in space): 1963
        4) Luna 2 (first [successful] moon probe): 1959
        5) According to Wikipedia, every Soviet Mars mission prior to Mariner 4 (first Mars fly-by [US]) failed.
        6) According to Wikipedia, every Soviet Venus mission prior to Mariner 2 (first Venus fly-by [US]) failed.
        7) Salyut 1 (first space station): 1971

        So other than their currently operating Soyuz craft, the most recent entry on your list is over 40 years old. I understand the point you were trying to make, but you have to keep in mind that things change, and the current Soviet space program is not nearly as noteworthy as the space program you described.

        • by tgd (2822)

          So other than their currently operating Soyuz craft, the most recent entry on your list is over 40 years old. I understand the point you were trying to make, but you have to keep in mind that things change, and the current Soviet space program is not nearly as noteworthy as the space program you described.

          You actually hit on the real difference there, in the mistake you made.

          The current Russian space program is not nearly as noteworthy as the Soviet space program.

          They're operating in a vastly different world now, and a vastly different political and economic climate. Its not the same space program. There's a continuity of people and facilities, to some extent, but its a total fallacy to pretend the current Russian space program has ANYTHING in common in that regard with the Soviet one. Its just fading echoes

  • No (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sandytaru (1158959) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:05PM (#38674236) Journal
    When science from another country fails, it is still a tragedy to the US. We are not in a cold war any more - the loss of a sattelite, or a probe, is a huge loss for everyone. Russia may be upset but unfortunately it would not be in US interests to intentionally destroy a probe that we cannot ourselves replicate (due to lack of funds or lack of interest.)
    • by esocid (946821)
      There's also the possibility that it was our fault, and completely unintentional. If the signals from Alaska did in fact have any responsibility for the damage, I doubt anyone would come out and say "our bad."
      • by tkrotchko (124118)

        So if you think your rocket is crashing because the Eskimos are shooting HF beams at it, then don't fly rockets over Alaska.

  • HAARP (Score:4, Funny)

    by na1led (1030470) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:06PM (#38674250)
    Maybe this also account for the 20 feet of snow Alaska is getting too.
  • by tkrotchko (124118) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:08PM (#38674276) Homepage

    Whenever one is dealing with sending rockets to Mars, particularly Phobos, once has to take into account some pretty basic facts about Phobos:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather_Goddesses_of_Phobos [wikipedia.org]

    Once you deal with that, then you can start blaming Eskimos in North America for downing your rocket.

  • "It's a feature of space launch trajectories that orbital adjustments must be made halfway around the first orbit to circularize and stabilize subsequent orbits," the article [foxnews.com]
  • That submarine? Pipelines? The military planes which crash and burn at every air show in the world?

    Russia still can't get over the fact that, in terms of being some sort of global player they're about as important as Spain. They didn't have any problems when they were sealing dogs in rockets and bunging them into orbit - that's about their level.

  • by timholman (71886) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:11PM (#38674326)

    One of my co-workers is Russian, and he still keeps in touch with friends and family back home. We've been discussing the recent anti-government protests in Moscow, and he says that the government-controlled media (which includes all of TV and radio, and many of the newspapers) has gone into overdrive accusing the U.S. for being behind almost everything that's currently going wrong in Russia. In his words, "Blaming America is all they have left."

    Implying that the U.S. is responsible for their spacecraft failure is just part of that game. Russia has been launching spacecraft for decades, and it is silly to think that they didn't learn how to deal with contingencies such as deliberate jamming long ago.

    • I too have some Russian friends, and by virtue of where I live, they are all part of or work for companies that support the space industry.

      This is why I'm constantly bothered by all of the comments about Russian abilities, and how they are inept and somehow backwards when it comes to high technology.

      Just because the Russians don't spend millions to develop some whiz-bang technology to do something in space a certain way that can already be accomplished by other means doesn't make them backwards. The whole a

  • by Morty (32057) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:14PM (#38674368) Journal

    Russian President Medvedev threatened to prosecute those responsible for the space failures [msn.com]. No surprise that the individuals in question are now looking to blame someone else.

  • Interference among the RF spectrum occurs all the time. I don't doubt that something some country or another has done could interfere with it. Now whether it was the US, China, or some other organization, it still might be accidental.

  • by dmesg0 (1342071) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:14PM (#38674382)

    On Nov 9, 2011 I unintentionally pointed my new 5mw green laser pen into the sky.
    Sorry Phobos-Grunt, I didn't see you there.
  • by Maimun (631984) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:17PM (#38674420)
    During the Cold War, every single failure of the USSR was due to some external enemy (or internal enemy, being an agent of some external enemy).

    Regrettably, the russians have gone back to that silly Cold War mentality. Their own propaganda tells them constantly that they are unique, superior to the others, and surrounded by vile enemies that miss no chance to do harm to russia. Recall that when their submarine Kursk exploded and sank, the first instinctive reaction of the regime and its propaganda was to blame a US sub for colliding with, and thus sinking, Kursk.

    • by unity100 (970058) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @12:36PM (#38674678) Homepage Journal

      Their own propaganda tells them constantly that they are unique, superior to the others, and surrounded by vile enemies that miss no chance to do harm to russia

      that was exactly the case. the moment revolution happened in russia, the leader of the FREE world, great britain, landed with 18 other 'free' countries to suppress the 'rebellion' of the people and reinstate tzar and aristocracy in russia.

      when they failed, they withdrew their military forces, and this time started to fund the white russians (Royalists) with arms and gold. to kill their own countrymen. when they were beaten too, they started to set up alliances and surround the country, leading to the cold war. the only intermediate pause was in between 2 world wars, and that was thanks to nazis.

      • by Maimun (631984) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:48PM (#38675736)
        Nonsense. The so called "revolution" was in fact the coming to power of the red monsters -- the most efficient mass murderers of the XX century. This mad cult had VERY LITTLE popular support at the moment and got the power for two reasons only: 1) they were ruthless fanatics, well disciplined and devoid of human doubts and compassion 2) they were well supported by Germany (try searching online for "Parvus" to find out who organized the transport of Lenin and the other madmen to St Petersburg; without the German assistance, those madmen would have achieved nothing).

        The Western powers were quite right in the attempt to remove the madmen from power and restore civilization. Regrettably, they acted without firm determination and let the red monsters establish their empire of evil.

        • by Pecisk (688001)

          Wow. No one can deny madness that ruled Russia in 1917, but so overwhelmingly one side argument doesn't do history a justice. Sorry, but truth is much more complex.

          First of all, let's get some facts straight - there were universal support for Soviets in nation. First of all, look up what that word means - there were committees of workers and peasants. In nutshell, that was good idea because Russia went trough serious existential and political crisis and these organizations where only things that kept societ

    • by mike449 (238450)

      Regrettably, the russians have gone back to that silly Cold War mentality. Their own propaganda tells them constantly that they are unique, superior to the others, and surrounded by vile enemies that miss no chance to do harm to russia.

      Don't speak for all russians. Hysterical propaganda is usually the sign that the population becomes difficult to control and has opinions that the propaganda is desperately trying to change.

    • This verses the USA, where we blame the 'internal enemy': The other political party.

      Yeah... It works just as well for us as it works for Russia.

  • by orphiuchus (1146483) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:25PM (#38675402)

    Something not working out at home? Blame either the US, Israel, or Islam if you're one of the first two.

  • by Karmashock (2415832) on Thursday January 12, 2012 @01:25PM (#38675404)

    Fail at anything = Blame America.

    Offer up some kind of evidence or we'll just respond that actually it was your mother.

    That's right... your mom. There's just as much evidence backing that... eg none.

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