Ask Slashdot: How Do You View the Wall Street Protests? 1799
__roo writes "The New York Times reports that the Occupy Wall Street movement has inspired hundreds of Facebook pages, Twitter posts, and Meetup events, and that 'blog posts and photographs from all over the country are popping up on the WeArethe99Percent blog on Tumblr from people who see themselves as victims of not just a sagging economy but also economic injustice.' What do Slashdotters think? Do you relate to the 99% stories? Do they make you angry — either at the system, or at the protesters? If it's at the protesters, is it rational or a just-world effect?"
The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if you're screaming right outside their door, they're just going to call the cops and crank up the volume on the TV. I don't seriously believe that the Occupy campaign are going to do that much to change what is going on. The 1% already control everything. Everything that you buy, everything that you watch and everything that you do is controlled completely by this 1% group. Just about the only way I can think of to wrest power away from these folks is if the 99% were to stop buying everything for more than 90 days. Once the corporations see their income statements go to zilch then you would see real change.
It's mostly a problem of identification. The real power-brokers love to be behind the scenes. They aren't the ones who are out there, on TV, participating in campaigns, issuing press releases, etc. That's all a puppet show for public consumption, to put it simply.
The real aristocracy does everything by proxy, by funding, by corporations, and by front organizations. The single most effective thing they ever did was to replace real state-issued money with bank-issued monetized debt. That's how you grab a nation by the balls without ever using physical force.
I doubt these protestors have the sophistication or the awareness to see through the bullshit and understand what they're actually opposing. Unfortunately, they are likely to be useful idiots, pawns on someone's great chessboard. That's generally the problem when you have blind, stupid, unfocused rage that lacks understanding and a strong sense of constructive purpose. That's why (in terms of Establishment priorities) it's okay to give them so much media attention. It's little more than a way to get the "troublemakers" to identify themselves and be arrested or otherwised put through the system.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
That's how you grab a nation by the balls without ever using physical force.
Sure you do, if the powerless ever get too uppity: Kent State is the most extreme example in the US, but there are plenty of more recent examples. You don't get involved yourself, of course, but you get your pals in government to organize riot police protection whenever you're having a major gathering that might attract the attention of the rabble. And here's the best part: You can use your control of government to convince the police to buy all sorts of weapons from the corporations you control, so that you're effectively using the protester's own tax money to fund beating them.
And in the Third World countries they care about, they don't bother with the niceties of limiting themselves to non-lethal force. Sometimes they use the US military for that, sometimes the poor nation's own military and police, sometimes private security forces, but the effect is always the same. It's not all that uncommon, for instance, for sweatshop workers who dare to talk about organizing to be killed by private companies.
I doubt these protestors have the sophistication or the awareness to see through the bullshit and understand what they're actually opposing.
Well, for starters, they had the sense to target Wall Street rather than Washington DC and government. That suggests that they're seeing through at least one of the illusions put forward by the real power brokers.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:4, Insightful)
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Sure, they have power, armies of private security, full control of the government, etc. But that's no match for the protestors' mighty drum circles!
Once the corporations see their income ... (Score:3)
reduced to zero, they'd lay off all their workers, who would then be *really pissed* at the elitist bastard protesters.
Then the workers would mostly vote Republican since the Republicans would say, "You had a job until those elitist left-wing bastards destroyed your jobs."
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:4, Interesting)
So start your own business. I did.
I can't, nor can many of Slashdot's audience. Why? Because of a law IBM bought in 1986 prohibiting programmers and software engineers from working as self-employed individuals. (Citation: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/us/19tax.html [nytimes.com] ). So, once again we see regulations bought by corporations to steer things in their favor. Which is kind of the whole point of the protest.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Informative)
You need to contact an actual tax attorney and/or accountant, and try again, rather than listen to people putting you down. The law does nothing of the sort; there are, in fact, tens of thousands of self-employed programmers and software engineers in the US, and there are dozens of ways to set oneself up in the business.
Just keep in mind that it's more likely you will run afoul of your state's Professional Engineer statues if you call yourself an "Engineer" and do not have a P. E. license. But this, too, is easy to avoid; usually just by not using the word "engineer" in your business name or as a title on your business cards. Or, by actually sitting for the exam(s) and getting the license. . . .
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Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
set up a corporation, The corp bills as a contracting firm and then pays them minimum wadge. The Corporation buys there house, car, boat, land, etc, etc. Most of it is expended off the corporate taxes. There wadge goes to pay for things they want. I am told that when all is said and down they make a killing at it.
And they're stupid. The point of an LLC is to prevent things like losing your house et al when someone sues the company. If the house is owned by the company (not the person), then isn't it fair game? Pay yourself a good salary and use that to buy the stuff you want to keep for yourself. Everything else can be LLC owned.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
So your solution is for the 200million+ American workers to all start their own businesses? THAT'S your solution? Really? "You don't like that patent trolls are gonna sue you into the ground if you bring something to market? Well, you just get your own patents and SUE THEM BACK!"
Do you really believe that being a "consultant" is the same as "bringing something to market"? Come on. "Consultant" is just an invention of big business which allows them to underpay workers and not give them any benefits. I get a kick out of people who think that "consultant" is some sort of elevated status when in fact it's just a sign on your head that you have been bent over a desk and well and truly fucked.
So you believe that the fact that you have to do all that just to survive, while probably seldom seeing your wife and kids and having extra pressure on your family life and needing to work until you drop just to make ends meet is a good thing?
That's about as ridiculous a notion as this new talking point going around "conservative" media that the solution to our economic woes is to have everyone work longer and retire later. Think about this: Forty years of a computer revolution with everything being automated and the productivity levels of workers going up 200-300% and corporate profits at all time record levels and you still have to work harder and longer. Don't you see anything at all wrong with this picture? You're being asked to give up another decade of your life to work even though you're more productive than your grandparents were. And why? Because the corporations you work for have decided that they don't want to give you pensions any more, that you shouldn't have benefits and you need to put in more hours, more work, more productivity so the shareholders profits can keep accelerating. Think about that. The solution to the equation of wealth, for some reason, is that you should work harder for less even though you're a lot more productive.
But...but...if the workers have less, that means that they'll have less to spend on the products and services the corporations sell! What now? Well, we'll give you a credit card! And then another. And then another that you can use to transfer your balance so it seems like you're not doing so badly. And when there's just no room left on the cards there's that pittance you've got in equity on that house you've been paying on for 15 years, so you should just borrow against that. Yeah, that's the ticket, that's how we'll keep it all going. And when all the equity's been scraped from the houses and the foreclosures are at record levels, then what?
Well, that's where we're at today. There is a global economic downturn because every last shred of accumulated wealth has been scraped from the majority of people who are seen as nothing but lambs to the slaughter for corporations and there's even an economic downturn in China. So every drop of work, every drop of wealth has been had we find ourselves where we are today.
The world did not just become less valuable. There is not suddenly a shortage of money all over the world. The entire world economic downturn can be seen as what happens when all the wealth gets siphoned off by small percentage of people.
I retired back on 2006 on my 50
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
The French Revolution was more about one group of powerful thugs overthrowing another group of powerful thugs (some have made the same case about the American Revolution too). It was only CLOAKED as a grass-roots revolution. REAL grass-roots revolutions are very rare.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you were an Iroquois. Then your towns were burned to the ground by George Washington's troops because your people supported the British. And plenty of Canadians trace their ancestry to American loyalists who fled their homes to avoid potentially fatal persecution.
All that said, yes, it was still a lot better than France.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Informative)
And plenty of Canadians trace their ancestry to American loyalists who fled their homes to avoid potentially fatal persecution.
This is something I learned at age 29 when traveling in Canada, and it totally blew my mind. Nobody in any history class had ever mentioned, nor had I ever thought to ponder, what happened to the people who didn't agree politically with the Revolution. Up there in Canadia [sic], they have Loyalist Highway and Loyalist High School other landmarks named for Loyalists.
They aren't so loyal now, though, are they! Now Canadia is it's own country, since way back in the 1980s. Good for you, guys!
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:4, Insightful)
.
Quis Custodiet, ipsos custodes.
Re: (Score:3)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't that sort of adding an additional layer of complexity? You're saying "we shouldn't blame the corporations for engaging illegal and destructive behavior because its the government's fault for not stopping them".
So, if an arsonist sets fire to your house, we shouldn't prosecute him, but rather we should punish the fire department and
Re:To me, the one side means the most (Score:5, Interesting)
To summarize, bullshit.
The lender is responsible for ensure they borrower is capable of paying back the loan, especially when they are lending someone elses money, especially MINE.
Yes, the borrower is responsible for paying back the loan, and when an otherwise good borrower suddenly fucks up and doesn't pay back a loan for whatever reason, you understand that is part of the risk of lending.
However, when the bank makes loans like they did for my wife. $180k loan to a woman in college (3rd year vet student at the time) with absolutely no job and no time for one anytime in the next 2 years, then its is entirely justified to blame them when it goes South. The bank was fucking utterly retarded to loan my wife the money. Her only 'income' was student loans, which ... they fucking counted as income.
Fortunately for them, we actually do have the money to pay for it.
The point however is that there are times when its just part of the lending business, and then there is what has been going on over the last decade where bankers were giving money to anyone anywhere regardless of if they actually qualified for it or not ...
Theres absolutely no way you can claim its not the banks fault when they were giving loans to people who claimed other loans as 'income'.
Few people are blaming the banks because the banks legitimately took someones house who hadn't been paying for it, and those people are just nutjobs. What people ARE bitching about is the fact that the banks are foreclosing on homes they don't even fucking have loans for, and GETTING THE DAMN HOMES. They're foreclosing on homes with no paperwork showing they even loaned any money or bought a loan from someone else. They are calling up offering MUCH better financing now and asking existing customers to refinance because they don't have anything to PROVE they actually own the lean on the home!
No one feels sorry for the guy who lost his half million dollar house because he couldn't pay for it working at McDonalds. We are pissed off because the fucking bank GAME HIM A HALF MILLION DOLLARS WHILE WORKING AT MCDONALDS. We're pissed off because all the assholes that caused this shit are still rich as fuck and the government gives them money so they don't get hurt any more, while those of us who didn't fuck up are paying for it. I don't mind helping out when I'm helping someone worse off than me, but here its the poor and middle class bailing out the rich because THEY FUCKED UP.
Don't try to shift the blame. I any many other people did our part and paid our bills, and we'll be glade to help out the guy who can't feed himself, but forcing me to bail out the fuckwads who have 4 or 5 extra digits on their bank accounts than me ... when they fucked up and are still currently raping others like me?
We are responsible for our position in life, and what you're seeing in these protests is people who are getting more and more tired of being fucked over even though they've done everything they were supposed to, because the rich guy in the office on the top floor, Southwest corner, who will make more in the next 15 seconds than most of us will in the next 3 years, pays off the right politician.
They are becoming more responsible for their direct position in life, hopefully the guy in the building and the politicians will start listening, in the last year, several countries have fallen for smaller reasons.
You can keep blaming the little guy, but he's getting a lot closer to just whipping your ass rather than bitching.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:5, Insightful)
There should not be *any* voice in government for corporations until they can have the exact penalties enacted against them that individuals can. If a corporation is convicted of fraud, they can't do business for 3-5 years...until the CEO gets out of jail himself.
The fact that any corporate money is allowed in politics is nothing but pure bribery.
Re: (Score:3)
I already have started. I grow a lot of veggies (you should see my food bill in late summer/early autumn - I save a fortune). Next year we're going to start keeping chickens, which will help cut down on the cost of basic meat and of course eggs.
Personally I'd love to have solar power/wind generation, as that's another big bill, but the start up costs are rather extreme. I've seen one quote for $20k CDN for a 2.2kW system. That would barely touch what I use because we have an electric water heater, etc. But
Not just we, but you too, are the 99%. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been around here long enough to know that top posting unrelated to the prior comment is bad etiquette, but again, I've been around here long enough to know when it is appropriate. I also know the magic formula for getting modded up is to say "I'll probably get modded down for this but.."
I'll probably get modded down for this but it is important enough to risk it.
The Occupy Wall Street movement does not have any leaders or stated goals or structure on purpose. This is an action deliberately taken in order to have broad populist appeal. The same instant they take a side on any issue, the established political system will immediately use that as a wedge issue to label, then divide and conquer the scraps of popular sentiment and kill any interest. Once a leader is selected, they will find one thing that guy/gal has said publicly, label him as a partisan for it and kill the movement. The parties have been doing this for years and have more experience, skill and money to deflate populist action than can be competed against. The only way to win that game is not to play.
The movement does have a goal and that is to take back our democracy. Get people talking about the issues again without having predetermined party lines or agendas. Once those lines are drawn, almost everyone stops listening or thinking and just go like lemmings how they have always done. The only thing this movement wants is an equal shake at a fair government. They want their representatives to actually represent them instead of representing the highest bidder: usually the rich and the corporations.
The purpose here is not to take any specific issue to congress, it's to overturn congress with people who actually listen to their electorate. If that means voting incumbents out, great, or at least put the fear of the people back into them, good too.
What is their stand on abortion? None. But once we have fair representation, we can talk about it democratically.
What is their stand on gay rights? The environment? Housing? Taxation? Big Government? None. But once we have fair representation, we can talk about it democratically.
What is their stand on any issue? TBD but we'll talk about it democratically once we have fair representation.
You don't have to agree with this movement on any specific issue and you don't have to hold off on support because they don't have talking points or take stands on your personal hot-button issue. For now it's enough to say that all the issues are TBD until such time as we have fair representation and can figure it all out democratically.
There is a sentiment of discontent in everyone I talk to. Everyone knows the system is broken but nobody has the power to change that. Voting is supposed to solve these problems but voting either way is a vote for the same thing.
Slashdot is typically an open minded place, I think this movement should speak to each of you. The only thing they want is more democracy. I don't blame anyone for thinking there is a hidden agenda, because there almost always is. But this movement has reached enough of a mass with the cause of having no purpose that it would be hard to argue that there is one. When the only underlying cause visible in their message is "More democracy!", I don't see how anyone can be against that. Want to change something about that platform, get out there and discuss it democratically instead of sniping at it from the comfort of slashdot.
This is a movement that is outside of and has rejected the established political system. And it's the only one I've seen in my lifetime that has rejected playing the two-party game. I am very excited that it has even gained some traction and has people talking!!! To me it is a moral imperative that we support this. Even if all it means is getting some people you know to talk out the issue.... even that alone is progress.
And it's not the liberal Tea Party!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
And one more thing: It's not the liberal version of the Tea Party. Both sides would **LOVE** for that to be the big soundbyte for precisely the same reason: Divide and conquer. The right will discredit it to their base as more liberal whack jobs and the left will attempt to co-opt whoever remains with the movement. It's important to reject that notion outright. The movement has NO POLITICAL STAND. The only way to win the game is not to play.
Re:The 1% are insulated (Score:4, Insightful)
I am not asking for ever-increasing control of the economy. I am asking for some social justice, some equity, some defense for the common man against the abuse of those in power. What I want is a well regulated capitalist economy where the government is of the people and for the people. That isn't communism, it isn't fascism, and it isn't a Laissez-faire anarchy or feudal plutocracy that libertarian ideals inevitably lead to. It is capitalist with a stabilizing influence of socialism where you are never punished for getting rich, nor are you punished for being poor or middle class.
Bitcoin (Score:5, Funny)
Want to do something about the current failure of money? Start using Bitcoins. It'll be the biggest protest with the biggest impact in history.
http://www.weusecoins.com/ [weusecoins.com]
The problem isn't the currency (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is a financial system built on making enormous amounts of money without contributing to society.
Re: (Score:3)
The financial system does contribute to society by proving risk-willing capital, that is why it was too big to fail.
The excessive gambling going on inside the system might not be to our benefit however, but all investments are fundamentally speaking gambles, so there is no way to prevent gambling in finance. We can only hope to find mechanisms that will make it safer for the rest of society.
Percentages (Score:3)
From what I've seen, it's actually 80% arguing with 19% about 1%
Protests (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
The 99% needs to learn to not be asleep at the wheel half the time
The 99% needs to stop wanting to be numbed into oblivion by Bud Light and the Vast Wasteland (more now than just television).
But then... maybe 99% of the population wants to be numb because they are -- to one degree or another -- followers. After all, we are social animals, and social animals organize themselves into hierarchies.
What is the goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What is the goal? (Score:5, Informative)
End the Wars
Tax the Rich
This isn't Rocket Science
Courtesy of Tom Tomorrow:
http://thismodernworld.com/archives/6027 [thismodernworld.com]
Re: (Score:3)
The goal seems to be to get enough people riled up to join the protests and finally to annoy the wealthy enough so that they call in the government guns on a large scale - inciting a revolution ala Egypt. I do not know how I feel about this.
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I thought it was fairly obvious that the core was about a broken democracy where corporations can lobby "people's representatives" into representing their own interests instead.
If your vote doesn't count unless you have a lot of money to back it up... And those who do can prey off those who don't...
Yeah, they're protesting an effective plutocracy.
Re:What is the goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of them seem to be protesting against Wall Street, investors, and capitalism in general, however it was the *anti-capitalism* actions of the TARP bailout that a lot of them are citing.
They really should be focusing on protesting Congress and the White House. The people on Wall Street are there to make as much money as they can. They don't mince words about it. If congress gives them a break that is not fair to the 99%, you really can't expect them to not accept it.
Our Country's leaders are the ones who need to be protested on this issue for directly allowing the top 1% to have additional tax breaks, bail-outs, 0% interest loans on federal monies that they turn around and charge 28% on, etc., etc., etc.
For example: by setting up shop (even on paper) in Ireland, the Bahamas or where ever else, US companies can get out of paying federal tax. Legally.
Not so with an individual. As an American citizen, if I go live and work in Ireland, or anywhere else, without ANY ties to the US at all, I still am required to pay US Federal income tax on the money I earn(in addition to that countries taxes.)
Are you really going to blame GE for, essentially, following the rules?
Protest Washington...you won't get any better results, but at least you'll be barking up the right tree.
That's my big issue with them (Score:5, Insightful)
I want to know two things:
1) What are your problems? Not some random vague laundry list like "Wall street is bad," or "The rich suck." A short, specific, list of the things you believe are big enough problems that they warrant protesting over.
2) What shall we do about them? Just whining that there are problems is not useful. Propose solutions. Real, workable, solutions. Understand what the tradeoffs for those solutions are (all actions have cost) and be ok with that.
If you can't identify what it is your goals are and how you might go about achieving them, then I can't really support you because I don't know what I'd be supporting. Also I don't think there is much chance of success.
If you look at the successful stuff along these lines. Like, say, the civil rights movement they had precisely what I was talking about. They could clearly define the problem (that minorities were not treated the same as whites) and the solution (require the same treatment under the law) they desired. There was a goal being worked towards. It was something people could rally behind, and did.
So these people need to figure out what they want and how it should be done, and be able to state that in a cohesive fashion. Until then, I can't be supportive because I won't support something unless I understand what it is I'm supporting.
Re:That's my big issue with them (Score:5, Insightful)
What are your problems?
Banking should be a service to industry that facilitates socially useful capital and equity, not be an industry in its own right. The social good derived from (say) derivatives shorting is vanishingly close to zero.
1) What shall we do about them?
(I think this has been articulated rather clearly by the movement to anyone wishing to ask). Re-introduce the Glass-Steagall Act, impose a transaction tax (eg 0.01%) on every trade of any kind performed on the stock markets, and re-balance shareholders' interests against equity build using suitable regulatory legislation.
So - what say you?
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Yes, the protests are mostly ineffectual. Most news stories seem to be "what are they about?"
From the Wild One: "Hey Johnny, What are you rebelling against?" "What do you got?"
The funny thing I think was the a Wall Street worker who pointed out that they were all using Apple products and said that Apple had the largest market capitalization. So there is a bit of irony in protesting against corporate greed while blogging about it on the most expensive and fashionable laptops.
Mindless dupes of a well financed astroturf outfit (Score:3)
Oh, wait, sorry . . . I was thinking about last year's protestors.
The protesters need to refocus their anger. (Score:3)
They need to instead focus on financial crimes, the fact that many of the people in the so-called 1% who are responsible for the subprime lending crisis, etc. aren't sitting in jail despite the fact that it's these white-collar crimes which bankrupted many innocent people. If they focus on the tax evasion, insider trading, blatant abuse of trust, and so forth, then they would have a more convincing case.
Re:The protesters need to refocus their anger. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The protesters need to refocus their anger. (Score:5, Informative)
The Wilpons allegedly lost as much as $700 million [nytimes.com], so maybe you want to substantiate that claim with something.
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Turns out the payments only just started. Apologies on my part.
Re:The protesters need to refocus their anger. (Score:5, Informative)
Thats strictly a paper loss, the Wilpons profited from their relationship with Madoff. They deposited about $700 million and withdrew about a billion over the course of 5 years, their only losses were the ficticious profits they hadn't yet withdrawn. A recent ruling limited their liability to only what was invested in the last 2 years, and likely only the profit they made of about $83 million.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/29/business/mets-ruling-may-reduce-payout-to-madoff-victims.html [nytimes.com]
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/madoff-ruling-a-big-win-for-mets-owners-2011-09-28 [marketwatch.com]
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What exact crime is it to give someone a loan? Please, who exactly do we arrest and for what? In fact, if they had been as tight as a duck's ass about handing out loans people would be whining that the American dream is dead because "normal people" can't afford a house.
If you're going to throw some banker in jail for loaning $300k to someone for a house, make sure you throw the asshole who thought he could afford a $300k house so he could keep up with his neighbors.
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Yes, these guys do indeed deserve to be put down for violating both the trust of the people who got the loans and the trust of the financial industry. The problem is that there's just too many of them.
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It's a crime when the people doing the lending know ahead of time that you cannot afford to repay it, yet give it to you anyway. They're supposed to lend responsibly, yet instead they loaned a lot of money they knew was extremely risky, and then traded that debt.
So the positions on the spectrum are not just "tight as a duck's ass" or "criminally irresponsible" - there's a middle ground there.
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What makes you think they're not after handouts?
It seems to me the crux of the problem is that a few tens of millions of people in the US spent 10-15 years living on credit WELL beyond their means. Tens of millions of people who weren't middle class leading middle class lifestyles. Tens of millions of middle class pretending they were upper class.
The greed of the banks was a second order greed. They took advantage of a pool of people who knew *perfectly well* they were living beyond their means.
So the real
Bitterness (Score:5, Insightful)
I see a lot of bitterness on Slashdot about the U.S. political system: the sentiment that all the politicians are bought by moneyed interests and are at best indifferent, at worst actively hostile, to the needs of the person in the street or the country as a whole. I see the "Occupy<Location>" protests as expressing the same sentiment.
At this point I think it's more important to build consensus about the need for action, than to determine a specific course of action.
No, it really isn't (Score:3)
That reminds me of one of my many favourite lines from Canadian Bacon "There's a time to think, and a time to act. And this, gentlemen, is no time to think."
Just going out and "building consensus for action" is not useful unless what the action is is defined. I will NOT stand behind any movement who's purpose is not defined. I have to know what you and I have to agree with it before I can support you.
What's more, if you look at successful protests, well that is what they have. They have a list of what they
Re:Bitterness (Score:5, Insightful)
To determine a course of action, first we need to diagnose the problem. My take is this:
1. Both parties in Congress have become largely unresponsive, over the past decade at least, to the will of the people.
2. They have become less responsive because they have gerrymandered district lines to an insane level. The popularity of Congress has been hovering around a mere 20% for years, yet the last 3 elections (2006, 2008, 2010), heralded as huge sweeps, saw roughly 85% of incumbents keep their seats. The voters are no longer picking their politicians, the politicians are picking their voters.
3. Because of this dilution in voter power, the power of moneyed interests has increased (certainly in relative terms, maybe in absolute terms too). We see both parties increasingly enmeshed in cronyism, in which they attempt to give subsidies to allies while levying taxes or regulations against opponents. Even after the biggest financial disaster since the Great Depression, on a bipartisan basis Congress proved unable or unwilling to tackle Too Big To Fail. If that's not a sign that Congress has freed itself from the will of the voters, I don't know what is.
Doing something about gerrymandering would seem to be a step in the right direction. An example would be to put responsibility for district lines into a nonpartisan commission's hands, perhaps aided by algorithms to help maximize competitiveness. That has the advantage of being something that folks from across the political spectrum could get behind.
An additional response to Congressional misdeeds is to stop allowing Congress to meddle in as much as it does, thus limiting the damage. But that has several downsides: 1) the left in the US seems reluctant to constrain the power of Congress, and 2) the right in the US, despite its rhetoric, has been extremely ineffective in electing members who actually would limit Congress, perhaps because 3) there is currently very little incentive for Congress to constrain itself.
Unequivocal support (Score:5, Insightful)
These people are the best chance we've had to turn around a country that's been headed in the wrong direction for at least the past 30 years. We live in a country where Goldman Sachs can commit thousands of acts of felony perjury, and not one person stands trial. They create fraudulent financial instruments, and pay back a small portion of their ill gotten gains as "fines" (bribes). Yet if I were to write a bad check to cover some groceries, I'd be going straight to jail. There's no way to describe this but tyranny.
Barack Obama, the greatest hope in a generation, is either unable or unwilling to do anything about this. If he's unwilling we have a severe political problem. He was elected to bring us change he refuses to deliver, and we have no way to hold him accountable.
On the other hand, if he's unable, we have a much more serious problem. That means democracy is well and truly dead in this country. The corporations have a complete stranglehold on our government. Unfortunately, this is more likely to be the truth.
Re: (Score:3)
attacking Wall St. business
Fraud is not legitimate business. Wall Street is nothing more than organized crime, and should be treated as such. Obama could file criminal charges against the board of Goldman Sachs under RICO today. The fact that he hasn't only highlights the corruption in his government.
The protests are.... odd. (Score:3)
They finally made it to San Francisco. But they either moved away from their initial location on Market Street, or were completely forced out of the city. What little I saw of them made me think that
* the local homeless and drifters finally found something to do with their free time
* they have no chance in hell of accomplishing anything
Specifically, they won't accomplish anything beyond getting attention. They have hundreds of different, sometimes opposing goals. They're all upset with the status quo, but have no workable solutions. They're largely made up of young, idealistic people with little corporate or political experience. They cannot tap into any networks that carry any weight. They're doomed to be nothing but friendly protesters who will at some point run out of steam.
To some extent, I can understand them. The system we're in is set up to benefit a very small minority (0.5%, from what I've seen actually). There's less and less economic mobility. Profits are privatized, losses are socialized. But they're not the equivalent of the Arab Spring, because they have no solution. Worse, they're pointing at the wrong people when they're asked to point at the culprits of the current situation.
Winter is coming. It's going to be cold. Tthe tent cities will disappear. And with them, the movement. Maybe it will be reborn into something different, something with more teeth, simpler goals, and a better understanding of politics and economics behind it. That is their only real hope. I wish them well.
If I were not 2000+ miles away... (Score:3)
I'd be there with them.
Though I think protesting on the Capitol Mall might be more effective - I'm pretty fed up with the GOP bending over backward for Wall Street and weeping about poor Bankers and Wall Street when the call for better regulation was made after the banking crisis. Also rather sore about the bonuses being paid, right after the bailouts. A lot of the rhetoric regarding "we have to leave these people alone because they enable our economy" fell on my deaf ears - the economy took a right battering thanks to their blind pursuit of margins and percentages on return, never mind the risk.
Many ways; here's one (Score:5, Insightful)
I see it (hopefully) within the context of similar protests that have occured throughout US history.
For example, the Pullman Strike [wikipedia.org]. That, and other labor unrest during the later part of the "robber barron" era lead to things we now take for granted such as minimum wage and the 40 hour week.
There were also grass roots leftist movements during the Great Depression.
When you read these histories, some of the things said by actors on both sides are eerily similar.
The hope is that these actions will reform and perfect our republic; but not destroy it. "Revolution" is a word that gets tossed around a lot; but I think there are very few people who want a true revolution (which I would define as a new constitutional convention that unseats all currently elected officials in one fell swoop and replaces them with something else).
The US has been flexible over its history, and that's a strength. We don't need a revolution because it's built into the Constitution in the form of elections and even the ability to ammend the Constitution itself. For example, some have proposed an ammendment that would overturn Citizens United and strip corporations of personhood. I'm not arguing for or against such an ammendment. I'm just citing it as an example of how change can occur within the framework of the Constitution without destroying the nation.
In other words, we have the rights of speech and assembly, and they are being used. I just hope they don't get abused and destroyed.
7 Core Demands of Occupy Wall Street (Score:5, Interesting)
1) End the Collusion Between Government and Large Corporations/Banks, So That Our Elected Leaders Are Actually Representing the Interests of the People (the 99%) and Not Just Their Rich Donors (the 1%).
2) Investigate Wall Street and Hold Senior Executives Accountable for the Destruction in Wealth that has Devastated Millions of People.
3) Return the Power of Coining Money to the U.S. Treasury and Return to Sound Money
4) Limit the Size, Scope and Power of Banks so that None are Ever Again âoeToo Big to Failâ and in Need to Taxpayer Bailouts
5) Eliminate âoePersonhoodâ Legal Status for Corporations
6) Repeal the Patriot Act, End the War on Drugs and Protect Civil Liberties
7) End All Imperial Wars of Aggression, Bring the Troops Home from All Countries, Cut the Military Budget and Limit The Military Role to Protection of the Homeland
Not sure where this came from, but it was making the rounds on Facebook. Numbers 6 and 7 seem rather "wishlist"-y, but other than that this looks roughly accurate.
Re:7 Core Demands of Occupy Wall Street (Score:4, Informative)
These demands are in reasonable sync with the Ron Paul school of Tea Partiers:
1) End the Collusion Between Government and Large Corporations/Banks, So That Our Elected Leaders Are Actually Representing the Interests of the People (the 99%) and Not Just Their Rich Donors (the 1%).
Ron Paul has consistently been against any kind of bail-outs. He was dead-set against the $700 billion bank bailout, for one example.
2) Investigate Wall Street and Hold Senior Executives Accountable for the Destruction in Wealth that has Devastated Millions of People.
Ron Paul hasn't (to my knowledge) advocated this kind of thing. But in a similar vein, he has been an outspoken critic of the Fed - he wants full exposure of all Fed policies. These policies have been used for decades to pick industry winners - so this is an example of collusion between govt. and business. Maybe this really goes along more with point 1, above.
3) Return the Power of Coining Money to the U.S. Treasury and Return to Sound Money
This has Ron Paul written all over it!
4) Limit the Size, Scope and Power of Banks so that None are Ever Again âoeToo Big to Failâ and in Need to Taxpayer Bailouts
See above comments on bank bail-outs. Ron Paul has consistently advocated that banks must be left to fend for themselves - no bank bailouts. He's really been the more forceful advocate of this stance, for the longest time - among elected representatives.
5) Eliminate âoePersonhoodâ Legal Status for Corporations
Not sure about this one.
6) Repeal the Patriot Act, End the War on Drugs and Protect Civil Liberties
Ron Paul has been a long-time advocate of drug legalization.
7) End All Imperial Wars of Aggression, Bring the Troops Home from All Countries, Cut the Military Budget and Limit The Military Role to Protection of the Homeland
Again - Ron Paul has consistently argued for de-imperialization for years/decades. He is one of the few in Congress who have voted against all foreign wars, and to bring troops back from pretty much all foreign deployments.
So, if the above list does, in fact, reflect the desires of the Occupy Wall Street-ers, then there is at least a strong theoretical connection between them and the Tea Partiers. That is, if you buy the idea that Ron Paul is the true standard-bearer of the Tea Party. Unfortunately, that isn't necessarily the case...
Small (Score:4, Interesting)
I went to the park Sunday and got a first-hand look at the 'protest', and what struck me was how small the protest is. The park is slightly smaller than a half city block (size of a football field), and there were two or three tourists/observers for each sign-carrying/slogan spouting/sleeping protester.
The lack of a central them or focus allows anyone to identify with theprotesters: against the Fed? Fractional banking? Standardized testing in schools? Tax the rich? End the wars? Against student loans? Out ofwork? Then you can find a kindred spirit in the protesters. If they focused on one thing, the majority of protesters would bolt - they sacrificed any chance of actually effecting change (in my opinion) for the appearance of larger numbers.
The protest will implode on Oct. 15th, when they maximize their numbers, their lack of focus will undermine any advances people imagine they have made.
Slashdotters unite to attack whoever dares to act? (Score:3)
Sadly, I've learned most Slashdot users will talk from self-perceived position of superiority and mock any and all attempts from people to improve things, exercise their right to free speech or just try to do whatever they can to fight for their rights.
They will gladly complain about the Evil Xs, Ys and Zs until a common person dares to do something about it and ends up being noteworthy. That's when the hate machine will come down upon him. Meanwhile, I wonder what WE do to change anything.
Our level of constructiveness seems to be approx 1 % :/
Re: (Score:3)
"Sadly, I've learned most Slashdot users will talk from self-perceived position of superiority and mock any and all attempts from people to improve things, exercise their right to free speech or just try to do whatever they can to fight for their rights."
If the protesters themselves didn't try so hard to invite ridicule and instead focused squarely on getting their message out, we'd have a reason to take them more seriously.
Weather (Score:4, Informative)
The protests started when the weather changed from Hot to Pleasant. They'll end when the weather changes from Pleasant to Cold.
Revolution is easy - No Debt. (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't speak to the "entire" 99%. However, there's a large number who fall in this category: Middle class, busting their ass, struggling with credit cards, student loans, car payments, mortgages. Just making it. They're angry at the right people - but they have the wrong idea. The middle class are more than happy to keep signing up for credit - this is how the rich have become the new Monarchy. You don't kill that power with signs and cries to the government: you do it by choosing to stop giving them all your keys to personal power.
Teach your children: Debt is bad. Go to college on grants and scholarship, bust your ass working to pay for the rest. (Make 70% of a Harvard salary, but with $100,000+ less debt) (You'll have to teach your kids to get past the fantasy they've been sold that college is foremost about the social experience - work your ass off, study your ass off, and if you have any left over time, that's for socializing)
No credit cards. If you don't have the cash (yes, I mean debit card, silly) to buy the latest iPhone/clothes/Christmas present, then plan better. Or accept that you simply can't afford it.
No car loans. No car leases. First car will be garbage. Pay yourself what you'd pay in a car payment - every 3-5 years you'll have a pretty nice car and no debt ever. New cars - never. Horrible loss of value. Always buy something 2-5 years old.
Mortgage: This is the hard one. Most people can't save up $150,000-$300,000. Actually they can.. but let's assume you need to rely on the bank. Never get into a house with less than 20% down. Then attack that mortgage. Don't pay the minimum and keep the rest so you can have the latest shiny beepy and your kids can have the latest plastic happy. Live crazy cheap for 7 years - most people can pay off their house in this time. If you start off early, and have a decent job (and aren't strangling yourself with debt), it's possible to save up and just write a check.
Obviously all this is a bit insane, but let's stop believing the lies: we have to go to the best school, the only safe car is a new car, that credit card payments are a way of life. Your best tools aren't your picket signs and your Tumblog: it's your income. Take it back, and make it the force behind changing your life.
For those already in the hole, there are some sacrifices to be made, but it's possible.
An average person, 100% debt free by age 35, will be a multi-millionnaire by the time they are 70 (assuming they aren't a total idiot about how they spend their $ after debt).
Mod parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
Very solid advice. I'd add a few more:
- If you get married, learn to live on one income.
- If you do have a second income, use it to pay down debt as aggressively as you can, then to save up for big-ticket items such as a down-payment on a house, a used car, retirement, etc.
- If you plan to have children, don't count on a second income until the youngest is of school age. It's a full-time job to care for very young children. It makes sense to maintain business contacts, go to professional events, and do short contract work to keep your resume current, just don't count on the income. Take care of the kids first, then ease back into work -- and apply that extra income to getting debt-free.
- Don't spend a lot of money on "premiere" vacations while kids are very young. They won't remember any of it when they get older, and it's incredibly stressful on the whole family. Take the kids to the great outdoors instead. National and state parks are amazingly good vacations, and cheap, too.
- Invest early. It takes decades to build up a nest egg. The goal is to have a big enough nest egg so you can live 2/3 off the interest income when you retire, the other 1/3 from retirement insurance plans such as Social Security.
Protesting Wall Street... (Score:3)
... is not a bad idea. There's a lot to protest for sure. The protests currently going on though? Well from what I've seen they don't know what they're protesting, or why. They're there simply to be there. Which is hardly going to change anything or even cause much of anyone to bat an eye.
Strange Penalties (Score:3)
Steal a dollar, get probation
Steal a thousand dollars, get a fine
Steal a million dollars, get home detention
Steal a billion dollars, get a long jail term
Steal a trillion dollars, get a free swag of taxpayer money and become a consultant
less anger; more education (Score:3)
The protesters are drawing some attention and venting some anger, but that's about it right now.
There is however a huge opportunity for public education.
Instead of angry faces, and moronic signs like "y u not angry?", it would be nice to see some calm & rational folks down there with signs like:
"Bank Locally"
"Manage Your Own Retirement Funds"
"Reinstate Glass-Steagall"
"End the Federal Reserve Banking Cartel"
And if you talked to these people, they would make suggestions like:
1) Move all of your accounts and loans to a transparent, non-profit, local credit union. Or at least to a trusted small local bank.
2) Withdraw all money from your 401K, 403B, IRA, etc and manage it yourself. (The banks and government have lied to you about the long-term benefits of these accounts...which you will see when your retirement funds, which probably were already reduced by poor money management, are hit with the double-whammy of higher capital gains tax plus hyper-inflation).
3) Lobby your local senators and representative to reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, cap usurious interest rates, institute clawback laws for insane compensation of bank execs, place the Federal Reserve under ~government~ control (haha! you thought it was under government control?), etc. Call your elected representatives. Write them. Collect signatures of other constituents who will not re-elect them unless they push for these changes.
Etc.
Re: (Score:3)
I'd love to have the requisite time and knowledge to be able to manage my own retirement account, but I don't. And neither do a lot of people.
I went to OWS in New York (Score:5, Informative)
I went to Occupy Wall Street in New York, in Liberty Plaza on Thursday night.
You hear in the news media about how the park is not clean. I stood and watched the General Assembly go on for some time - while I was standing there, people with brooms came by every 15 minutes or so. The OWS people are almost overdoing the cleaning in response to the criticism, I've never seen more sweeping and cleaning than I did in the park. So if you hear on Fox News that OWS is not cleaning up after itself - it is just not true. I've never seen a place cleaned so frequently.
When I was there, most of the people were young people - in their late teens and twenties. They were winding down for the night so they were relaxing more. On one end of the park musicians were playing drums and other instruments, and the young people were dancing. Past them were a lot of sleeping bags. Past that people were being fed by a kitchen. They have a media center being run by a portable generator I believe. Past that is the general assembly where they make decisions. There is no loudspeaker so people repeat what the speaker says for those too far away - kind of like in the Life of Brian, but hopefully with more faithful repetition.
I've followed the internal political discussions about the effectiveness of these kinds of things for a long time. One point is it's a demonstration, in the sense of an example. Food is handed out freely, decisions are made through direct democracy in a general assembly, there's a DIY esthetic for everything, in a spirit of cooperation. So a community is created in OWS that is an antithesis to say the Wall Street financial companies - which are in buildings surrounded by semi-conspicuous barriers, behind which are tall office buildings whose entrances have security cameras, security guards and locked security gates, and up the elevator you have people wearing suits (or as fashions change, business casual) in a high-pressure, competitive, cutthroat hierarchy, run for profit. It's creating the new society in the shell of the old, as it's sometimes put
Then there's the other political considerations. Obviously this is inspired by the demonstrations in Tunisia and Egypt and the Arab spring on one level, and perhaps in some dialectical way the Tea Party as well. In the US in the 1930s there were student organizations, labor organizations, labor political parties and parties courting labor for people to get involved in. Nowadays less than 7% of private workers in the US are in a union. But things have changed in the US as well - in the 1930s Detroit going on strike would be shutting down America's economic engine - nowadays if Detroit went on strike, it would be much more minor of a ripple in the national economy. The UAW threatening to go on strike is much less threatening to the powers that be.
One of the biggest laughs is OWS has not come out with a clear program for the ordinary 99% of us not born with a silver spoon in our mouths, to get us into a better position. Well who out there actually is doing that? The corporate media is completely controlled by billionaires, Congressmen collectively get billions of dollars in campaign contributions, Bill Gates and others are trying to privatize all schools into charter schools. These rich heirs control the media, the government, increasingly the schools, and even churches really. Most importantly of all they control enough capital to effectively control all capital, they control who works, who doesn't, and the offices we go into every day, where our labor is kicked up to these heirs in one form or another by way of a quarterly dividend check. And then the real kicker is these people also effectively control or co-opt the organizations made to check their power - labor-oriented political parties and labor unions. That's why I feel that the OWS general assembly gives voice to my concerns in a way that all the other controlled and coopted organizations out there do not. People generally don't think about these things, but as the unemployment rate drags on at 9%, as the housing market stays sluggish and so on, more people dwell on these things.
Re: (Score:4, Interesting)
Very interesting. As a poll worker, however, I am amazed that people feel they have to sleep in the streets to effect change. The number of people who vote in local elections is just a tiny fraction of those who vote in the big national elections. But it's in the local elections where the slate is chosen -- who gets on the big ballot, and who does not. If just 5% more people turned out to vote, we'd have radically different politicians to choose from.
Justifiable rage, but no clear goals (Score:3)
That's not to say that their anger is misguided. Those who got us into this mess have done less time in the slammer than the protesters who were unlucky enough to get arrested. Our political system is not so much broken as already bought. And the wealthy in this country, by and large, have every reason to regard themselves as America's upper caste, since they're effectively immune from poverty, or even the rule of law for that matter.
But if there is a message here, it's getting lost in the noise.
Agenda??? (Score:3)
I think many of us realize something is wrong... that whatever is supposed to be working is no longer working. Bankers seem to have undermined some basic things in our culture but haven't had to answer for it. Politicians and corporations think they own votes and manipulate both the media and political boundaries to keep it that way.
Maybe it's all coming to a climax of some sort. Corruption on the massive scale that we've had for the past two decades may have reached the breaking point. At some point politicians can no longer do favors for every competing special interest and ignore popular opinion.
Have we reached that point. Are we at an "American Spring"?
It's a *very* interesting situation (Score:3)
This Wall Street protest is one of the most interesting phenomena that's happened in a long time.
We like to think that we know the general pulse and mood of society and that the outcomes are predictable, or at least reasonable.
If Apple comes out with the iPad, it may bomb or it may be popular - both outcomes seem to be likely given the current state of the world. If a cop is videotaped beating a suspect, it will likely go viral. If the president gives a speech, it will have little lasting importance.
The Wall Street protests are different because they are completely inexplicable. Masses of people don't protest without a reason, without a rallying point, or without a charismatic leader. There's always *something* that starts them off, that prompts people to take action. The recent London riots were precipitated by a cop shooting a civilian.
If these protests truly are just a manifestation of general popular mood, then the country could be in serious big trouble, for the following reasons:
1) If this is general popular mood, then the protests are emblematic of the mood of the *entire* population, and
2) These sorts of situations are fertile ground to grow new, charismatic leaders.
Not to Godwin the discussion or anything, but this sort of unrest has similarities to the environment that allowed Hitler to rise to power. Theoretically, potential charismatic leaders exist in our society but never become popular due to social circumstance. If the people are content, it's hard to get a following.
The protests are interesting because of all the unlikely things that have happened: it was unlikely that they would start, it was unlikely that they would grow, it was unlikely that they would spread to other cities, and it was unlikely that they would be sustained for so long.
So many unlikely outcomes are a clear indication that we can't predict the next outcome.
Hence, it's interesting.
A leader is needed (Score:3)
I think all these people at these occupy protests shows there is lots of anger and frustration out there and that the fear and attachment to the status quo are diminishing.
This is a ripe time for a charismatic leader to tell them what to think, and gin up some will to act decisively. Its also notable that heading into presidential elections none of the candidates are that person. Obama is out there trying to be and its not working. These people even if most would be unwilling to say it actually want the current political system gone.
There does need to be a leader though. A friend of mine lives next to a Cleveland Federal Reserve employee, who went down to the street to see what the Occupy Cleveland folks wanted. What he tells us is that he told them look, I am one of these guys, I will be getting on airplanes and talking to Congressmen, Senators, Federal Reserve Board members, some European and World Banks reps and others all next month. What would you like me to tell them?
They protesters were not able to come up with an answer. The group could not come up with a single actionable statement. He was not looking for anything real specific, he just wanted something a little clearer than "JOBS!"
From a hippie to the hipsters... (Score:4, Interesting)
Disclaimer: I'm a social liberal. Hippie, even. My passion is education and my occupation is sustainable transportation. I can't wait for gay marriage to be legal everywhere, I happily pay my taxes to redistribute wealth (I live within my means) and pay for socialized services, dream of the day of fiscally sustainable socialized medicine, and believe that all tax loop holes should be closed (in a perfect world, etc.). I like to donate my time to help other people. I'm a humanist preference utilitarian.
Statement: I think a good deal of the Occupy protesters are as bad as the Tea Party-ers. Few understand the implications of their assertions and demands. Few understand the futility of sit-ins, hunger strikes, and walk-abouts. They have no singular cause... no three points of demands and a plan to achieve them. Instead, they're so very grass-roots, that it's attracted a bunch of people who just feel like they need to yell at someone who's listening.
But no one's listening.
They're angry, they're let down, their parents' generation milked American credit for all it was worth and now they've been told go to fix it. Instead of creating meaningful action and initiative, they're chanting.
Further disclaimer: I marched against the war in Iraq with millions upon millions world-wide. The effect? America still invaded Iraq.
Statement: People have forgotten that the only way for protests to work is for the protestors to be pitiable. What are the memorable photographs of the 1960s? Here's a hint: they didn't involve hyperbolic signs or masked faces. They are of dead people-- having been shot unjustly by the national guard. They are of those being sprayed with fire-hoses and being attacked by police dogs. These protesters aren't allowing themselves to be pitied. They seem too well off for the middle class to care.
Where's your $50,000? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's the beginning of the end. (Score:4, Interesting)
Pure capitalism, just like pure communism is full of fail, and we are about to see the reason why. But not before we do a hell of a lot of damage with it, it will go down swinging in one of the bloodiest civil wars in the history of the Earth. It's far better that it happens than the alternative; we swing full into fascism and start paying our bills through outright global domination.
If you compare and contrast the history of the rise of Nazi Germany with our current events, especially how far our Rightwing has gone to the right, you will be startled, amazed and frightened. Few really do understand the terminology of fascism and it's history. It's tailored like a glove to our times though. I have often wondered how the good people of Pre-Nazi Germany could have been duped into becoming the evil empire that they became. Now I have seen with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears the effects of carefully cultivated propaganda.
Where we have failed: Our democracy has been hijacked by corporate interests. We have allowed bribery to not only become legalized, but its an art form. You can't have representative government if the moneyed few can influence the politicians. Our current economic situation is due to our trade policies. "Free Trade" is the biggest lie to be imposed upon the American people in our entire history. "Free Trade" is an oxymoron, business is war, and trade is the mother of all wars. Our founding fathers understood this, and that is why they limited the federal government to collecting funds only through trade tariffs. They understood the need to protect the ecology of the nation's economy.
What we have now are trade policies that are dictated by multinational corporations that call this rape "globalization". It means they can have goods manufactured in countries that pay only pennies for labor, then come flood our markets with these products. This kills kills our industry. It kills our job market. New ideas and innovations can't draw upon our work force, they have been cut out of the loop, and those in power have the markets sewn up. These corporations in power, not only stack the deck in their favor with bought and paid for politicians writing them laws, they also fix the markets for themselves, and get huge stacks of "welfare" from our tax payers.
The first step to correct this is to get control of our politicians back into the hands of the people, and out of the hands of the mega rich and the multinational corporations. This involves campaign finance reform, but that hasn't happened, in fact its went the other direction. It's now even easier to buy politicians with the changes to PACs.
The second step is to correct all of the crooked trade policies and laws that stack the deck in favor of specific corporations and industries, allowing them effective monopolies.
But this isn't going to happen. Those in power have seen this coming for a long time. They have been buying both political parties for decades now. They have been systematically disarming the public as well. They have been building the worlds biggest prison industry, and police state. They own the laws, the politicians, and the law enforcement. They have now the ability to use the military on our civilian population if we decide to have armed revolution. They also control the media, which has proven to be an effective propaganda tool.
The media has done a great job of indoctrinating Americans into believing this corrupt system is "the American way" and to fight to the death to defend it from "liberals, commies, socialists, etc" We have proven how well they control us when they can send our children off to wars that have lasted longer than WW2, and for reasons that are not clearly explainable, we just "have to trust them". We are fighting a "war on terror". This is such a lie. One can't fight a war on an "emotion." It's nonsensical double speak, set to confuse and befuddle the undereducated masses.
The Tea Party was a contrived movement, started by billionaires in an attempt to guide the obvious
Re:Sick of it... (Score:5, Insightful)
About time the losing side in the class war started fighting back, I say...
Re:Sick of it... (Score:4, Insightful)
The simple fact that you're mentioning a class war makes me think you have little useful to say. What's going on right now has nothing to do with class warfare, and all to do with people being sick of bailing out private institutions when their bets failed.
Re:perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
So, you're saying that unless they are the one person on earth living in the worst possible conditions without actually dieing, they should cheerfully accept their regular ass-raping and just be thrilled that they're not that guy? That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Re:perspective (Score:5, Interesting)
To what ends? How far down the drain must things slide before they become worth fighting for?
Bingo. Myself coming from the second poorest country in the Western hemisphere, I find it appalling that Americans criticize other Americans because they are fighting for greater equality, accountability and the preservation of the standard of living which is what makes living in the developed world great.
Like yourself, I'm not exactly sure what the hell these holier-than-though-we-have-it-good morons expect. Should things slide till things degrade to the point the average standard of living is no longer what it should be in a developed country?
The total student loan debt in the country is now surpassing credit card debt. When you used to be able to get a college degree with no more than $15K in debt, now you have to acquire debt 2-3 times that amount at least!. Social mobility is decreasing. There are 14 million people unemployed. People who worked hard for years, decades, are now unemployed because their jobs moved to China, and these same people get derided because they never got additional skills - with what money, with what education system, and if you are over 50, with what opportunities to get hired in a new field again?
You can finish college owing $50K and still not have a chance to get a job. And you have no other educational alternative since we do not have a state-funded post-HS vocational education system. Unemployed are being derided for not being entrepreneur and small business owners, but those who deride them conveniently ignore the little fact that capitalism (or any economic model for that manner) cannot absorb a population entirely made of entrepreneurs.
It is a sad indictment that it is cheaper for someone to travel to a third world country to get basic medical care than here. One would imagine that a country with the highest living standards would provide affordable health care for people making the minimum or close to the minimum. You need to make at least 2.5 or more of minimum wage just to afford medical and dental for yourself, let alone your family if you have one.
This might be a country with a very high standard of living, but you can still be poor and live a shitty live. It is an arrogant thing to say the poor in this country that they still have it better. They do, but just marginally with respect to the cost of living in this country. This from someone (myself) that comes from a country (Nicaragua) where there is still people looking for food and recyclables in garbage fields.
I would dare to say that in my old country, so long as you live within walking/commuting distance to a medical center (that is, you don't live in a remote village up in a mountain), you get a better chance to get basic medical care on a regular basis than a poor person in this country.
And that is the saddest indictment of all. People who deride the protesters, claiming that they have nothing to complain, they really don't know what the f* they are talking about.
Re:It's the left version of the Tea Party (Score:4, Insightful)
Populist rage of the disaffected, only these are unemployed college grads instead of moderately racist suburbanites. And while this group lacks coherent talking points, at least they are angry at the right people.
Really? Then why aren't the protesting their University for putting them tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for a degree that isn't worth a tenth of that? You know, the universities sitting on multi-billion dollar endowments yet are raising tuition many times the rate of inflation? In an age where information is vastly cheaper and easier to acquire, they are making it much harder and more expensive.
The fact they are blaming Wall St, which has absolutely nothing to do with their degrees' cost, shows their university did not provide them with the necessary critical thinking skills to make it in the world.
Re:It's the left version of the Tea Party (Score:5, Interesting)
Clearly you have little understanding of how a university works.
Just because you have a giant endowment doesn't necessarily mean you can write checks off of it. They're likely tied to stipulations regarding their use.
It's becoming more expensive because costs have gone up, more people are attending (in general due to population increases, more people are "college age" than before but also enrollment goes up when the economy goes down).
Second, the economic depression has been on for a while now and wiped out emergency funds and other savings they'd accrued. There was a lot of money lost in investments that are now worthless, largely thanks to the gambling by our financial industry, but not exclusively.
To be clear, I'm not saying there aren't areas where universities can do better to reduce costs. For example, the one I worked at for years was quite heavy on the administrative level, and could likely shed some of that to save money.
Finally, just because information is easier to come by doesn't mean it's all valuable. The more information there is, the more work involved in organizing the useful bits from the shit.
Our economy is a web of interconnections. It's not at all as simple as you make it sound.
Re:It's the left version of the Tea Party (Score:4, Insightful)
They have cogent talking points, tax equity for individuals and corporations. One person, one vote ( minimize the power of money from the top to influence elections and elected officials). There message is simple and close to the message of the original Tea Party which came out against Wall Street before the Koch brothers and Fox took over that group and steered them to be anti-government instead of anti-wall street.
Re:It's the left version of the Tea Party (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:It's the left version of the Tea Party (Score:5, Insightful)
The three aspects of Occupy Wall St that are like the Tea Party are:
1. It's without question a populist movement.
2. It's emphasizing peaceful protest as a way of getting what you want.
3. It's not coming from either major party's political apparatus.
That's about where the similarities end. Some of the more significant differences:
1. Police have generally been favorable to or at least tolerant of Tea Party protests. They have been hostile and violent towards Occupy Wall St.
2. As of yet, there have been no indications that Occupy Wall St will turn into "elect Democrats" in a way that the Tea Party turned into "elect Republicans". There are also indications that attempts to turn it into an effort to elect Democrats would likely end in failure.
3. There are no wealthy donors and no major corporations giving money to Occupy Wall St, in the way that the Tea Party was financially supported by News Corp.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Police have generally been favorable to or at least tolerant of Tea Party protests. They have been hostile and violent towards Occupy Wall St.
That's because the Tea Party doesn't defecate on their cars. Daily Mail [dailymail.co.uk]
Re: (Score:3)
I think the protests have got a little too big to be simply dismissed as merely a bunch of professional protesters.
My problem is that I still have absolutely no idea what they want. Even the Tea Party, as malign and foul a movement as it is, at least has a basic common set of demands. I gather the protesters are against income disparity, but other than that it's all mishmash and mumbo jumbo.
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"I owe $70K in tuition fees to a high end college. My parents are ultra liberals with six figure salaries apiece. I'm in the 99% boo hoo." Well, I guess that (being not in the 1%) is probably true from a strictly technical standpoint, but I have a hard time FEELING SORRY FOR YOU.
Where ever did you get such a broad brush? I must purchase one!
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Re:Completely valid (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry... no.
Sad as it may seem, the federal government (as screwed up as it is) is the only body that could possibly keep these fuckers in check. Your proposal would make the federal government weaker which would in turn make the Wall St. asshats stronger which in turn screws us all.
Instead of drowning the federal government in a bathtub (ala Grover Norquist), I suggest we take our government back from the greedy pigs and use that power to set things straight.
Simply getting rid of the sheep dogs because they've sold out to the wolves is not the way to go. If you leave the sheep to fend for themselves, we'll all end up as wolf poop.
What we need is new sheep dogs.
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If I was close to where the large areas are I'd be there tearing up my $900/month student loan bills too.
sorry but that smacks of self interest more than anything else. you borrowed the money. why don't you think you need to pay it back? if the answer is something like "corps borrow money and don't pay it back / get bailed out", your thinking is wrong. the solution is for everyone (corps and individuals) to pay their debts and act financially responsible. the answer is NOT the opposite, for everyone to refuse to pay their debts and act financially irresponsible (as you are did / are doing, respectively).
two wr
Re: (Score:3)
Re:The whole concept of 1%/wealth is ... irrelevan (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm 32 years old. I'm probably a bit below that 10% personally but growing up I lived in a household of 6 where the total assets were probably closer to 8k. We got by. Now when college came I chose one that I knew I could afford and had some luck finding a decent job (after a year of unemployment). Now I make an income that is greater than my entire family put together due to that good luck and I am getting better. I was careful and recovered from bad debt management (and that year of unemployment). I consider myself AMAZINGLY lucky as I have moved from below poverty to probably between middle and upper middle class. It was alot of work, skill, and luck. But I'm here.
These people are mostly younger than me college age students. They are carrying iPads and drinking Starbucks. At their age I actually wouldn't have dreamed of paying $5 for a beverage. Hell I didn't even pay that much for alcohol for getting drunk during college (quarter drafts were the best invention I have ever experienced). I have trouble identifying with them as it doesn't seem like they want to go through the struggle I did. I don't know where they want money from. I also don't know why they feel they deserve to be more prosperous than they are without struggling for it.
You can't find a job straight out of college? I had to relocate pretty damn far from home after a year of searching to find a job in a field that had a high hiring rate. Did you pick a good career path?
You can't afford to buy a home or rent your own place right out of college? Maybe you shouldn't be trying to do that in one of the most expensive housing markets in the country.
If they put out a message that spoke about a specific issue or a set of issues like corporations being too involved with the government I could get behind that. But right now it feels like they are whining about sour grapes. Yes the division of wealth in this country sucks and it isn't getting better, but instead of whining about it and hoping someone fixes it for you or the problem magically goes away come up with real ideas about how to fix it or try to protest about specific causes. Heck it doesn't have to be one, but a little more focus would make them sound a lot less whiny.