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FTC Staff Discuss a Tax on Electronics To Support the News Business 381

dptalia links to this piece describing a staff discussion draft from the Federal Trade Commission, writing "The FTC is concerned about the death of the 'news.' Specifically newspapers. Rather than look to how old media models can be adapted to the Internet, they instead suggest taxing consumer electronics to support a huge newspaper bailout. Additionally, they suggest making facts 'proprietary' and allowing news organizations to copyright them." Note, though, "The good news in all this is that the FTC's bureaucrats try hard to recommend little. They just discuss. And much of what the agency staff ponders are political impossibilities."
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FTC Staff Discuss a Tax on Electronics To Support the News Business

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  • Let them Die (Score:5, Insightful)

    by airwedge1 ( 1768544 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:07PM (#32448090)
    Why are we always so concerned with keeping companies in business. We didn't try to artificially keep wagon wheel business alive when cars were invented. This is absurd, if a company can no longer sell something, sell something else, or die off.
  • Bail Me Out Please (Score:5, Insightful)

    by whisper_jeff ( 680366 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:10PM (#32448136)
    I am utterly blown away at hoe often the government is willing to step in and save failing business models. Car companies refusing to evolve, media companies failing to evolve, and more. Last time I checked, we live in a capitalist society where companies that succeed, in one way or another, are rewarded and companies that fail, for whatever reason, are supposed to go out of business. I can understand and be empathetic towards companies that have their business destroyed because of the actions of another, such as fishermen having their livelihoods wiped out because of BP's oil leak. Those businesses deserve some intervention to help them get through the rough time that is no fault of their own. Companies that fail to innovate, however, and end up watching their balance sheets shift more and more downwards? Nah. Sorry. You tried and failed. You don't have a right to be in business, just because. You have to work hard and succeed, just like the rest of us.

    Failing businesses should be allowed to fail. Someone will figure out a successful business model and will fill the void or a market that no longer needs to exist (hello buggy whips) will fade into the history books.
  • by d3ac0n ( 715594 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:11PM (#32448146)

    It's frightening just how much modern American government has become like the nightmare Statist government in Ayn Rand's novels, constantly meddling with and attempting to control market forces that it and it's members are incapable of understanding or wanting to understand.

    Regardless of what you may think of her personally, she was prescient.

  • by aztektum ( 170569 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:12PM (#32448154)

    Dear Washington,

    You're doing it wrong.

    Thanks,
    Everyone

    Seriously what the hell? Stop giving our money to greedy corporations. Want us to buy a house? Spend more on crap? Buy new cars? HOW CAN WE DO THAT WHEN YOU KEEP TAKING OUR $?

    OH wait. You'll just take it and give it to corps for free.

    Now, I am not a tax hater. I am fine with taxes for things like emergency services, libraries, roads, schools. The difference is those services provide for the public good. Forcing me to hand money over to your buddies at the "too big to fails" is bullshit. You crooked fucks.

  • Re:Let them Die (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Karganeth ( 1017580 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:14PM (#32448200)
    It really has nothing to do with capitalism. Even in communism they would remove companies and technologies that are obsolete. It's just stupid to think that newspapers have a right to exist and make a profit.
  • by natehoy ( 1608657 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:15PM (#32448220) Journal

    Yeah, and who's going to report it as the bad thing it is?

    The major news media? No, they'll just take their bailout and spin the news to all goodness and light and fluffy bunnies and fuzzy puppies.

    Other outlets? No, they'll get sued to oblivion because the news media will have copyrighted the facts, so anyone else who tries to report on it will get a DMCA Smackdown.

  • by blackraven14250 ( 902843 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:19PM (#32448270)
    All of the news outlets that don't get the bailout, perhaps?
  • Re:Let them Die (Score:3, Insightful)

    by i_ate_god ( 899684 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:21PM (#32448318)

    Forget letting them die; they should be killed. News should be shared, not sold.

    Right, because journalism doesn't cost a dime to the journalists.

  • by RobertLTux ( 260313 ) <robert AT laurencemartin DOT org> on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:29PM (#32448462)

    have they considered this bit of law??

    "Congress shall make no law ... or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    this fails on these grounds.

  • by garcia ( 6573 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:29PM (#32448480)

    Go ahead, "copyright" your investigated information.

    Oh fuck them and their investigated information. Asshole journalists steal the research done by bloggers, like myself, all the fucking time. While bloggers happily link to the information they are using for their work, journalists never do and cite how it's just not done in their industry.

    While I am happy to research, request, and even sometimes pay to make data public which may not have been before, I do expect that the journos will cite that work I did when they use my materials when they write their stories--just like I do for them. Using other people's work without citation is called plagiarism anywhere else in the world and I really and honestly believe that the entire journalism field needs to go back to college and learn how to do their jobs again. Perhaps at that point the industry will turn around for them.

  • No way (Score:3, Insightful)

    by thetoadwarrior ( 1268702 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:30PM (#32448498) Homepage
    The thought of that cunt Murdoch getting money from me when I used none of his services and despise his existence would be far too much.
  • by blair1q ( 305137 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:31PM (#32448506) Journal

    Put a tax on lying.

  • State Sponsored (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:32PM (#32448530)

    I'm against this, not because I think newspapers need to adapt to modern times (I think alot of them are trying now and I truly hope it works out for them) But I have a more serious problem with it.

    Wouldn't this make the newspaper industry state sponsored? Which I think is one of the biggest mistakes possible and I know in the past Americans have always cried out against state sponsored news in other countries. I would hope they would cry out against this one.

  • by rhaacke ( 1563489 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:33PM (#32448554)
    This combined with the "emergency powers" over the internet that are being given to the Department of Homeland Security mean that most of the media in this country can conceivably be taken over by the government. If they don't like what you have to say they aren't going to allow you to say it.
  • Re:Let them Die (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 0123456 ( 636235 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:33PM (#32448556)

    Right, because journalism doesn't cost a dime to the journalists.

    Modern 'journalism' mostly seems to involve reprinting press releases and rewriting information from Wikipedia, so surely it can't cost that much?

  • Libertarian alert! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by openfrog ( 897716 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:36PM (#32448592)

    It's frightening just how much modern American government has become like the nightmare Statist government in Ayn Rand's novels, constantly meddling with and attempting to control market forces that it and it's members are incapable of understanding or wanting to understand.

    Regardless of what you may think of her personally, she was prescient.

    Regardless of the merit of this case, don't you think it's just a bit early to come with this magic market libertarian stuff as we are still in the midst of a major financial crisis caused by massive deregulation?

    I am not bothered by the fact that you exist; I am seriously concerned, however, that there was one person to mod you insightful...

  • Re:Let them Die (Score:3, Insightful)

    by baxissimo ( 135512 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:39PM (#32448618)
    There is a market for news, so the "news industry" is not going to fail. What will die will be ways of monetizing the news that don't make sense any more. The more you prop up news organizations using bad revenue models, the harder you make it for new viable plans to compete.
  • by Shakrai ( 717556 ) * on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:41PM (#32448658) Journal

    No, the automakers are kind of strategic assets

    No, their plant and equipment are strategic assets. That equipment wouldn't have vanished if GM went out of business. It would have been bought up by more nimble competitors during the Chapter 7 proceedings.

  • by Shakrai ( 717556 ) * on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:43PM (#32448692) Journal

    There is good reason to worry about the loss of an independent source of information to an otherwise uninformed electorate. So all the comparisons to capitalism "we didn't bail out the wagon-wheel, buggy-whip, ...has-been technology" are a bit shoot from the hip.

    How is it an independent source of information if it needs to rely on money from the government to stay in operation?

  • Re:Let them Die (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Shakrai ( 717556 ) * on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:47PM (#32448754) Journal

    If the news agencies failed It would leave a huge information vacuum that the government could fill as it wished.

    And you don't think those same news agencies will be beholden to the government when the government is the one keeping them in business?

  • by rattaroaz ( 1491445 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:48PM (#32448772)
    Also on the upside, I can start printing facts like "I am a liar and a cheat." So if someone calls me that, I can sue for copyright infringement, which is worth millions, and I can also call the FBI to assist in prosecution!
  • by MalikyeMoon ( 1600085 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:49PM (#32448808)
    How about we create a tax on video games to support the failing board game industry? Or 20% tax on fuel injectors to subsidize the failing buggy whip market? Give me a friggin break people. It was NEVER the government's responsibility to support failing market initiatives, or outdated technology. The need creates the market. If the market isn't buying it, then the need has moved elsewhere. Imagine this: We let the newspapers die. There are no longer major news websites associated with those papers to provide material for pseudo news groups to link to for free. Other new sources will spring up, and the more legitimate and satisfying of those will flourish, and grow to become larger news sites. Those new sources of news will decide how best to be profitable, either by charging a fee for access to their service, or by using the free popularity model to drive the desirability for advertising space within their site. How do you think all these "Free" sites became popular, and then desirable, and finally powerful? (Google, Myspace, Facebook, Yahoo, etc.) Let the genre evolve how it will. Stop squeezing more money out of our @$$E$ by trying to reverse time and evolution already!
  • by Shakrai ( 717556 ) * on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:53PM (#32448878) Journal

    What do you mean, "without someone to sell to"? Do you think the demand for automobiles would have disappeared just because GM went under? Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc. would have had to expand their capacity to meet increased demand. The easiest way for them to do that would have been to start purchasing parts from GM's now idled suppliers. There was no reason to bail them out other than as a gift to labor. Look at the way the administration abused the bankruptcy code. The bankruptcy code said that the bondholders were secured creditors and should have been repaid first -- but they got screwed while the unions got most of what they asked for.

    Beware the Government that can't even be bothered to follow it's own laws.

  • Re:Let them Die (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Hatta ( 162192 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:55PM (#32448898) Journal

    Somehow I don't remember the DMCA or the Copyright Term Extension Act being passed during a recession.

  • by thisissilly ( 676875 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:57PM (#32448942)
    I would much rather see America turn to public funding for public domain news, instead of trying to let businesses copyright facts. One of the best news organizations [wikipedia.org] in the world is funding by a TV license fee.
  • by toooskies ( 1810002 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @02:57PM (#32448944)
    I never knew that. They don't want to take your money because the "adapt your business model or die" mentality. It's that anything on the Internet is disseminated only based on popularity and appeal, as opposed to basis in fact and research. If bloggers, etc. could demonstrate a commitment to fact and research that proper news media should have, then I'd be all for the papers dying. But when those papers die, so will all the reliable information. Because I'm not getting reliable information from TV news, I'm getting reliable spin.
  • by icebike ( 68054 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @03:09PM (#32449100)

    Never the less, we are already perilously close to "making facts 'proprietary' and allowing news organizations to copyright them."

    The first news organization to publish a story often has a monopoly on that story until another journalist (no bloggers need apply) gets there and files a report (usually after the fact).

    For that interval, the story is for all intents and purposes proprietary. Doesn't matter what Joe Citizen saw (unreliable eyewitness), or what Polly Pajama Blogger posts (unprofessional). The story is essentially OWNED by the first agency.

    It is not that hard to imagine our current copyright law being tweaked to extend this ownership for some period of time (weeks, then months) in the interest "protecting intellectual property" (aks propping up the current news infrastructure).

  • by Shakrai ( 717556 ) * on Thursday June 03, 2010 @03:09PM (#32449106) Journal

    Regardless of the merit of this case, don't you think it's just a bit early to come with this magic market libertarian stuff as we are still in the midst of a major financial crisis caused by massive deregulation?

    Has it occurred to you that government interventions in the marketplace helped to create the imbalances that contributed to the financial crisis? Government keeps interest rates artificially low, thus negating any real incentive to save, then wonders why we have high debt and low savings rate. Government favors large corporations at the expense of small ones and then wonders why large players dominate the financial/telecommunications/medical/etc industries.

    Ever heard of regulatory capture [wikipedia.org]? Ever wonder why established business lobbies in favor of regulations that make it harder for upstarts to enter the market?

  • by Qwavel ( 733416 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @03:17PM (#32449196)

    Yes, laughing at this proposal is appropriate, but there is a real problem.

    Unfortunately, I think that I am the problem.

    In spite of the fact that I understand and value the role that newspaper play, particularly in investigative journalism, I continue to increase the amount of news that I get online.

    I often visit the sites of the same newspapers that I have always trusted, but I know that the revenue they get from my online presense is much less then they got from the subscription that I have now cancelled (and its associated advertising revenue). Once they get good enough, I'll get a pad or a tablet and stop reading from paper completely.

    As well, I'm slipping into reading articles from scattered sites, probably because those scattered sites pander to my particular view of the world and don't have to uphold the journalistic standards that the newspaper did.

    To top it off, I don't believe in bail-outs, which usually don't work and are typically politically motivated anyway.

    So, I'm not sure what the solution is, but I know that there is a problem. Not much help am I.

  • by twoallbeefpatties ( 615632 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @03:23PM (#32449280)
    Do you think the demand for automobiles would have disappeared just because GM went under? Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc. would have had to expand their capacity to meet increased demand.

    And with the country going into a recession, a certain proportion of the workforce being laid off, and the sudden downturn in sales for their suppliers, all reducing the amount of available consumer resources - where is the increased demand supposed to come from?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 03, 2010 @03:25PM (#32449322)

    A business and an industry are not one and the same. A business fails, another rises... an industry fails and it could be anything from a minor inconvenience, to a major national security threat, to chaos in the streets.

  • by Shakrai ( 717556 ) * on Thursday June 03, 2010 @03:25PM (#32449324) Journal

    From the millions of people that would have otherwise bought GM automobiles? You can't have such a bad understanding of economics as to believe that GM's demand comes entirely from employees of GM and GM suppliers.

  • by kimvette ( 919543 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @03:26PM (#32449338) Homepage Journal

    This kind of bullshit is exactly why America needs to wake up and vote for people who are truly conservative. I do not mean "neocon" type conservatives who consider the Constitution an inconvenience, and certainly not "liberals" (as in the moonbat type) who consider it to be toilet paper, and I don't mean outright libertarians either; I mean people who actually read and understand the Constitution and who are grounded in common sense, and don't intend to legislate morality, prop up big business with pork legislation, not tell us what we can and can't eat, not legislating marriage (and in fact take marriage AWAY from government since interference in marriage is restricting freedom of worship as marriage is a religious construct), and certainly not tell us what we HAVE to buy (see: Obamascare, which is based on Massachusetts' failed RomneyCare), and not those who rack up insurmountable piles of deficit spending.

    Vote for people who want to preserve and protect the Constitution, that way the public good will truly be preserved for the generations to follow us. We need to stop voting based on who will protect or punish big business, but for those who consider the long term ramifications of such legislation. Vote for those who don't push for extended government micromanagement of our lives.

    We have only ourselves to think by turning it into a Red vs. Blue debate and allowing, no, demanding that government enforce those "values." Take back the country by voting for constitutionalists (regardless of party affiliation) and don't try to legislate what other people do. Want to affect change? LIVE the example; don't try to legislate it.

    Otherwise, the result will be exactly this kind of unconstitutional copyrighting of facts bullshit, and the perpetual "mickey mouse" and "sony bono" copyright laws. It really is a s;ippery slope because people see an opportunity to become a career politician than a true leader. The making of a good leader is a good servant. Constitutionally, our elected leaders report to us. In practice, politicians see it the other way and we need to send a very clear message to these stupid fucks in office that WE are in control and THEY are in place to SERVE.

  • by Machtyn ( 759119 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @04:01PM (#32449872) Homepage Journal
    Wow... a double whammy to free speech. News controlled by the government and news that can't be commented on. Granted, right now, most news outlets allow themselves to be controlled by the current administration, but they are slowly turning on the ineptitude.
  • by twoallbeefpatties ( 615632 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @04:07PM (#32449936)
    The repeal of Glass-Stegall, the lowering of capital ratios needed to maintain leverage, the deliberate understaffing of the SEC as seen as an unnecessary vehicle, the maintenance of fed interest rates near zero during the last decade, these are all notions of deregulation. If we were standing back and letting the banks support their own ratings boards and believing that mortgage brokers could police themselves and would be natually trustworthy, how is that an argument against government intervention in those cases? I'm not sure what you mean by lots of "bad regulation"** - what we had was weak regulation that was powerless to stop any issues that could have potentially occurred.

    Hell, you make Atlas Shrugged sound like an almost progressive book - it sounds like you're saying that the government should have been stronger than the corporations rather than the other way around. The idea that government should have no intervention in business whatsoever is a pipe dream, right up there with the idea that government should facilitate a society where everyone receives exactly equal pay and benefits. In a society where government stands back and allows profit-driven corporations to police themselves, then eventually you will have corruption as those corporations recognize the profit value in bribing and maintaining control of government, just as communist governments tend to become corrupt as officials recognize their special privileges. The "it was deregulation" rhetoric is a notion that government has a role to play in facilitating a free market, and that the extreme opposite of that is not a system in which the government goes completely hands-off - the extreme opposite is a government dictated by the whims of the corporations.

    ** "I don't give a damn about my bad regulation! You're living in the past, it's a new generation!" And now that will be stuck in my head all day.
  • by Chris Mattern ( 191822 ) on Thursday June 03, 2010 @04:16PM (#32450056)

    The collapse is easily traceable to media consolidation.

    You've got it backwards. Media consolidation was a consequence of the collapse; as circulations fell, newspapers had to merge to survive. This is easily seen by simply observing that the decrease in circulation started happening *before* the consolidations.

And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions. -- David Jones

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