VC Likens Google Bus Backlash To Nazi Rampage 683
theodp writes "Valleywag reports on legendary Silicon Valley venture capitalist Tom Perkins' WSJ op-ed on class tensions, in which the KPCB founder and former HP and News Corp. board member likens criticism of the techno-affluent and their transformation of San Francisco to one of the most horrific events in Western history. 'I would call attention to the parallels of Nazi Germany to its war on its "one percent," namely its Jews, to the progressive war on the American one percent, namely the "rich,"' Perkins writes. 'There is outraged public reaction to the Google buses carrying technology workers from the city to the peninsula high-tech companies which employ them. We have outrage over the rising real-estate prices which these "techno geeks" can pay...This is a very dangerous drift in our American thinking. Kristallnacht was unthinkable in 1930; is its descendent 'progressive' radicalism unthinkable now?"'"
Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
People like that will use any "argument" to justify what they are doing, no matter how remote or unrelated. They will not care whether they cheapen other things that have happened. The only goal is to pull the discussion on an emotional level, because they know the facts are not on their side...
Godwin's law (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe someone should have told him about Godwin's law.
By invoking a Nazi comparison, he already lost.
It's called perspective (Score:3, Insightful)
What actually led to the third reich's rise to power? Economic imbalance.
What actually fueled the war? Economic benefit to the very richest people. You can't make war without materials. They didn't have all the materials they needed, and they were able to buy them from other countries. The US government knew that an american was making fuel sales to the reich, but permitted them to continue for quite some time, then later seized the profits. Mitsubishi Zeroes were made out of ALCOA aluminum.
What's leading to any possible progrom-like activity against the rich? The actions of the rich.
Can't feel sorry for the wealthy. Share your wealth with us, or we will share our poverty with you. Signed, the world.
P.S. If you have a job, a roof over your head, and lighting and refrigeration, you are a member of the eight percent.
Uh right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Theres a big difference between the Nazis arguments on the Jews and the OWS argument on the 1%.
The OWS believe the ultra rich are ultra rich because they are ultra rich
The nazis thought the jews where ultra rich because the nazis where racist fanatics.
Kind of a difference.
Wild exaggeration (Score:5, Insightful)
The comparison is inappropriate.
At the same time, I do understand the disgust with the neo-luddites of SF and their alarming witch hunt - it is a mob.
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
A better comparison would have been the French revolution. A corrupt overclass that has little regard for the suffering happening beneath them, and actively working against the common good for their own benefit. Of course, that might not have supported his point so well since those guys mostly ended up at the guillotine.
Re:It's called perspective (Score:2, Insightful)
At first I thought he was an idiot.....but after reading that rant I can't help but think he might have a point.
One Percent (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all, I'm sure Google/Apple/etc. get to pull some of the cream of the crop, but these guys still don't make the kind of money the Wall St. Assholes make - they are hardly One-percenters.
The dude is truly out of touch with the rest of society.
A short list of things that are like the Holocaust (Score:5, Insightful)
1. The Holocaust
I also have a list of things that are like slavery if anyone is interested.
Re:Pathetic (Score:3, Insightful)
A better comparison would have been the French revolution. A corrupt overclass that has little regard for the suffering happening beneath them, and actively working against the common good for their own benefit. Of course, that might not have supported his point so well since those guys mostly ended up at the guillotine.
I fail to see how this would be a better comparison, would you be so kind to enlighten me?
Specifically, how are the "technology workers" a "corrupt overclass"? Again, how come working for Google is "working against the common good"?
A bit more: is "working for their own benefit" imoral now? ('cause illegal is not)
Like... what?... they don't pay for their groceries enough/at all? Or are they able to avoid sale taxes on those groceries?
Who are you talking about? (Score:5, Insightful)
There, fixed that for ya.
People like that will use any "argument" to justify what they are doing, no matter how illogical. They will not care whether theyworked for what they have. The only goal is to pull everyone down to their level, because they know they are too lazy too succeed on their own.
Are you talking about the Op-Ed author or the protestors?
Everyone works hard. This myth that the top of the socio-economic pyramid is there because they worked harder than everyone else and that the poor just sit around and do nothing is just complete and utter non-sense. Well, maybe not. There are the folks who inherited their money and just collect rents and dividends and hang out on their yachts.
I work very hard, but could I ever enter the World of this VC?
No. Because I do not know the right people to get there.
I have no doubt that among the protestors there are very hard working smart people that could do a better job than this guy can - any day. But they don't have the contacts and may even be considered someone who is the "wrong sort" and won't "fit in" to their "corporate culture".
Perkins [wikipedia.org] is very smart - I have no doubt - and lucky for him that he had parents who gave him great genes and the nurturing to bring out his god given talents.
But look how he was at the right place at the right time to ride on the coat tails of Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard at the beginnings of Silicon Valley. He was lucky enough to get in at the start of the "gold rush".
No sir. This guy had some wonderful opportunities given to him and like most successful people, delude themselves into thinking it was 100% their hard work.
War on the American one percent? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not war until weapons come out and people start dying.
Re:Brazil (Score:5, Insightful)
The sad thing is that the erosion of the middle class in the 1st world countries means that they soon might resemble Brazil, and this is not good, even if you are rich.
Which is exactly why it is so shortsighted to cut on welfare programs and generally treat the poor as the enemy, as is the trend in the US and many european countries nowadays. When the poor start to starve, they will not die quietly, they will get violent. Keeping the masses reasonably well off is a good investment, even for the most psychopathic rich.
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
A better comparison would have been the French revolution
No. Just no.
Come on people, this is not the government trying to take action against a group it doesn't like. These "bus riders" are in danger of being rounded up and put in prison, put in camps, or put to death.
If we as a society can't deal with the fact that a company provides transportation for its employees as a perk then we are a lost cause. These "bus riders" are probably all working while in the bus. Less traffic for everyone, less stress for the employees and more productivity for the company.
These "bus riders" are not forced to ride the bus, and are not in danger of being burned at the stake or facing a guillotine, or being shoved into ovens or gas chambers.
Just get a fucking grip. Your hyperbole is utterly wrong and ridiculous!
The old-time capitalists were smarter than today's (Score:5, Insightful)
Today's capitalists are so all-consumed with greed that it's hard to imagine somebody like Henry Ford actually raising wages to his workers could buy mor stuff. Mister Super-Genius Tom Perkins probably can't even imagine an act like that, or imagine reducing the national workweek to 36 hours to force employers to broaden income distribution, which is really how the Great Depression was fixed (48-hour workweek reduced to 40).
Cry me a river when the government takes your obscene wealth away, Tom.
Re:Oy (Score:2, Insightful)
We need a lot _less_ programmers than we have now. What we need is the ones with actual aptitude and skill. True, that will reduce short-term profits for a lot of greedy scum, but it will actually make the world a bit better. Not that Google and others have any more interest in that. That was just the lie the managed to sell convincingly in the beginning.
Also one additional point: Since when does "immoral" have any relation to "illegal"? The law and morality/ethics are not correlated at all. That is just the pretext used to justify laws which are not in the public interest.
Re:Uh right. (Score:3, Insightful)
I am pretty sure the Nazis thought the Jews were rich, because they were rich. They hated them and thought they were trying to take over the world because they were bat-shit crazy, and needed someone to blame for all their problems.
Re:Pathetic (Score:3, Insightful)
Google is like Microsoft now. They can do whatever they want. Nobody wants Windows 8. But Microsoft sells a lot of Windows 8 licenses, because that's what PCs come with. People don't have any choice.
While it is an interesting technology with cool potential, a lot of folks don't want to be constantly filmed by Google Glass wearers for privacy issues. Like, the thought that all that Google Glass data will belong to the NSA on a whim of a secret court judge. Google doesn't give a rat's ass about people's privacy. They just want to sell their glasses, and they'll do it. And it's their right to do so, but don't expect people to love them for it.
In the case of the Google buses, Google has the money and the right to provide that privileged service to their employees. However, to the common folks, the Google folks seem to be flaunting and taunting their wealth. So don't expect the commoners to kneel and bow down when the Google buses go by.
I'm actually really surprised that Google hasn't hired any PR muscle to handle some of these issues. But again, like Microsoft, too much success leads to arrogance.
Patents and RF spectrum (Score:4, Insightful)
Technology is one of those fields when you can still innovate without government/union restrictions.
Patents and long-term exclusive leases to radio frequency spectrum are government restrictions.
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
A better comparison would have been the French revolution. A corrupt overclass that has little regard for the suffering happening beneath them, and actively working against the common good for their own benefit. Of course, that might not have supported his point so well since those guys mostly ended up at the guillotine.
I fail to see how this would be a better comparison, would you be so kind to enlighten me?
Specifically, how are the "technology workers" a "corrupt overclass"? Again, how come working for Google is "working against the common good"?
A bit more: is "working for their own benefit" imoral now? ('cause illegal is not) Like... what?... they don't pay for their groceries enough/at all? Or are they able to avoid sale taxes on those groceries?
Not the tech workers themselves, who are just people working for the 1%.
The 1% who are the majority owners of the corporations that run America today would be the 'corrupt overclass'.
So... on what moral ground are the tech workers being attacked? How is this more likely with the French revolution than it is with Kristallnacht? (what makes the comparison with the French Revolution a better one?)
Re:Brazil (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wrong left-wing extreme (Score:5, Insightful)
Why the fuck anybody would have a problem with companies providing middle-class workers with traffic-reducing, environmentally friendly transport to work us utterly beyond me. But, oh please, successful people: lay off the victimhood schtick. It's silly and unbecoming.
Re:Oy (Score:5, Insightful)
is for having an educated electorate and not about creating worker drones.
You really really need to look at the history of public education. What you're stating is more like what existed before the 20th century. Government based public education was built by the industrialists specifically to train workers.
Its very well documented.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P... [wikipedia.org]
http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/ne... [stgeorgeutah.com]
What happens in the future (Score:5, Insightful)
When you train and educate for current technology and current needs of business, they will be unqualified when things change.
Companies' needs are for the short term. Technology, business and the markets change very quickly and if we train people to be one trick ponies they will have to be retrained again anyway.
And we're not talking about ancient Babylonian or Greek here - we're talking about reading, writing, math, basic science and critical thinking here - as well as civics; which I think has been completely forgotten by everyone. Those are basic things and more important than the programming language du jour; which after going out of style, those people will be unemployable - even if they do retrain inanother language du jour - because they have no on the job experience and the companies will just go and hire some CHEAP new grads who were trained in the language/tech du jour.. The system is gamed to screw the people and enrich the rich even more.
If a company needs a worker they SHOULD train that person to do the job that THEY need. TO demand that my taxes go to pay for vocational training for some high tech company that off shores their profit so that they don't have to pay taxes is a complete ripp-off.
These companies want it all their way: the public pays for their worker training while they keep all the profits and pay little or no taxes. [forbes.com]
Google and the rest of Silicon Valley is actually harming our country. They are importing poor people to work for less, not paying taxes, ripping off the system, and all the while keeping the money for themselves.
Perkins is dead right (Score:2, Insightful)
The people who bullied us when we were kids are back, in angry new roles appropriate to the Bay Area: street thugs, homeless crazies, political satraps who buddy up with anyone who will project the power they always craved. All it takes now is for some charismatic leader-on-horseback to come galloping out of Berkeley to pass out the brown shirts, and it's game on.
Re:Godwin's law (Score:4, Insightful)
Coincidence: Hollywood’s only conservative group is getting close IRS nonprofit scrutiny
Another Coincidence: James O’Keefe Group Being Audited by NY. Again.
Yet Another Coincidence: Dinesh D’Souza Indicted For Election Fraud
Still Another Coincidence: IRS Proposes New 501(c)(4) Rules That Just Happen to Cover Most Tea Party Groups
Judge Strikes Down Wisconsin’s ‘John Doe’ Subpoenas
Secret investigations targeted coincidentally at most prominent conservative groups in WI who can only now legally talk about their harassment. If you want to see what American fascism would look like, well this is it.
quote source: Here, with more links. [ace.mu.nu]
The power of the federal goverment, and some state governments, is being turned against those who oppose the powerful. If you don't have a problem with that, you're no better than a Nazi, regardless of Godwin's law.
Re:Pathetic (Score:1, Insightful)
> Perkins is disingenuously attempting to draw the technology workers onto his side by calling them 1%ers,
Oh no. The stupid protesters beat him to it. It's these stupid "townies" (or whatever you want to call them) that are lumping in mere workers with the 1%.
It's the "townies" that are attacking workers with decent jobs. It's the "townies" that are making this a class war focusing on "their own kind". The main difference is that Google employees were just slightly better at preparing for their futures.
These are probably the morons that blew off school or didn't bother to determine whether their student loans would be a good investment. HELL, some of these idiots might even be the sort that had "mummy and daddy" pay for their education. They might even be RICHER families than the people they're attacking.
Re: It's called perspective, anger is misdirected (Score:4, Insightful)
> You have your neighborhood back.
and you find yourself living in New Detroit.
That's OK. You can chase away all of the employers. I am sure there are other cities that would be happy to have them.
Come east and leave those eurotrash wannabes behind.
Re:Perkins is dead right (Score:4, Insightful)
They don't seem particularly comparable to Kristallnacht to me, either. Kristallnacht was a widespread pogrom, in which an entire population's stores, homes, etc. were smashed, urged on and assisted by the state. A comparable event would be if the San Francisco city government collected a list of which Mission and SoMa apartments were occupied by tech employees, which office buildings housed tech offices, etc., quietly distributed this list to its armed followers in preparation, and then called for an all-out attack on all these places of residence and business. I would say that, so far, this has... not happened.
Re:Brazil (Score:5, Insightful)
Arsenic is an effective treatment for leukemia [alphamedpress.org].
Empirical econometric studies of direct government transfers, "welfare," are generally favorable, at least compared to other popular alternatives, such as "nothing." Critics generally don't attack welfare with "scientific evidence," they attack it on moral and anecdotal grounds.
Re:Pathetic (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oy (Score:5, Insightful)
What you are describing is training.
training is not Education.
Education makes it easier to train someone, but training is not - and should not be - the sole point of Education.
Re:Brazil (Score:2, Insightful)
I think a scientific study might show that welfare, truly, solves poverty in the same way that arsenic solves cancer.
Then the evidence suggests you may be American: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare's_effect_on_poverty [wikipedia.org].
And there are plenty of scientific studies [google.com]
That said, you may be right... after all, arsenic trioxide is used to treat some forms of cancer [wikipedia.org].
He's trying to shut down debate (Score:4, Insightful)
If you think there is something wrong with historically unprecedented income and wealth inequality, if you fear for the future of democracy when 85 individuals control more wealth than 3.5 billion people [latimes.com], if you are alarmed at the influence of this wealth on politics (to the point where a single individual can bankroll an entire presidential campaign [slashdot.org], then you are a Nazi.
No further discussion necessary.
A few individuals have vandalized buses, therefore an entire subject is off limits.
Re:It's called perspective, anger is misdirected (Score:3, Insightful)
Because I would rather not work and bitch and moan about those who have a good job, than have a good job based on my ability.
That's not how it works. Hard work is the worst predictor of success. The best is who your parents are. Even luck is more relevant. That's not to say you don't have to work hard, only that it's not a relevant differentiating factor. Many of the most successful people (by typical metrics) have never really worked in their lives.
what the fuck happened to this country when working hard and making money became a bad thing?
Worker productivity has increased by orders of magnitude but worker pay has decreased. That's what happened. It's called lack of incentive. The worker is actually getting a worse deal today than at any other point during the democracy experiment.
Re: Oy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:That's not what was said. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Oy (Score:5, Insightful)
OP pointed out that the situation is more similar to the French Revolution than to the Kristallnacht/disenfranchisement of Jews in 30s Germany. I agree with you that most of the tech workers are scape-goats (I have been part of this very group in the past, for the record), but I agree with OP that the situation is closer to that in the French revolution:
(a) The targetted group holds considerable power and is connected to an apparatus that is seen with approval and benevolence `all the way up'
(b) The targetted group lives in a `bubble' that separates its concerns from those of the `lower' classes
(c) Targetting is driven by public disapproval, rather than by governmental machinations (sort of a fall-out of (a)).
Now, are the Googlers etc. to blame for the situation? Most of them aren't of course, they're just innocent participants `in the system' and can't be blamed for not wanting to not participate. But I'm confident that most of the French aristocracy had little intent of stomping on the common man either-- they just didn't deal with them much. Didn't do their necks much good, in the end.
So yes. This looks way more French revolution, `to the barricades, comrades! We shall throw off our shackles, and then guilloutine everyone who was or might have been sympathetic to these oppressors!' than Nazi `you really want to be there tonight to throw stones at the Jews, dude, or the Gauleiter will want to have a word with you, and you do remember that you have a wife and kids to feed, right?' Reichskristallnacht.
Except modulo the guilloutines. Please.
Re:Pathetic Example (Score:4, Insightful)
Try Democratic People's Republic of Korea, more commonly known as North Korea for a much more "how stupid are you to take things at face value" impact.
Re:Oy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pathetic (Score:3, Insightful)
that would be the pension funds then :-)
And since it would be the pension funds, that would mean this whole occupy movement is against pension fund members. You know, people like middle-class teachers, middle-class union members, state and federal government employees, etc.
This whole "war on the 1%" is such BS, for several reasons:
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
This is one part I hate about socialism and communism, these centralized economic systems allow for people (or committees of people) no smarter and often less intelligent than the common individual to make arbitrary decisions for the greater good.
The beauty of capitalism (and why the US should work to get back to a pure capitalist society) is that each of us as individuals can decide for ourselves, vote with our money, with our goods, with our services and support things we like and ignore things we do not.
Re:Pathetic (Score:2, Insightful)
>
These are probably the morons that blew off school or didn't bother to determine whether their student loans would be a good investment.
Disgusting. You know nothing about them, but you are rationalizing that they must deserve their poverty. You'll join them soon enough, as outsourcing and automation make more and more labor redundant. In the meantime, tell me, how does it taste to lick the shit off your masters' boots? Have you yet convinced yourself that it tastes like chocolate?
Re:Pathetic (Score:4, Insightful)
What you're missing is that these private buses are using public stops. It's a very minor thing, yes. But it's also a perfect symbol of what's been happening in America: Private companies enrich a tiny fraction of the population, while moving as much of the costs of their personal enrichment onto the public, often damaging the public interest in some way or another while enriching themselves.
Again, this is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, and in a country that did not have levels of wealth inequality comparably to Imperial Rome it would never be an issue. But it represents the problems of 21st Century America so perfectly, I'm not surprised it has ignited something of a firestorm.
Re:Pathetic Example (Score:5, Insightful)
You seem to have eaten the propaganda wholesale. Yes, they were opposed to capitalism, but for entirely different reasons: They basically wanted the whole population to be one kind of unified army, and capitalism is chaos. Calling this "socialism" was just good for their propaganda efforts.
Re:First post. (Score:3, Insightful)
I think Perkins is mistaking Versailles in 1789 for Berlin in 1933.
Re:Pathetic Example (Score:2, Insightful)
So you're taking nazi propaganda at face value and using the opportunistic treaty with the nation Hitler was building up his strength to crush as evidence, and you're not doing it ironically?
I'm impressed. Not in the sense you intended, I'm sure, but I am.
Re:Pathetic (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow. The hate meter just pegged.
Lets try another tack. How about "don't be the victim?" Education and training is an investment. Skipping the hard classes has a tendency to bite back over time. Don't be surprised when society doesn't need yet another liberal arts person, because LA has low barriers and there is a surplus.
Instead of hating, why not try learning? Ask yourself, "How did those people get on the Google bus and how can I join them?" There are still empty seats, if you can prepare yourself. (Note: Google is merely an example, I don't work for Google and most likely never will).
Of course, if you don't believe in hard work and education... well... perhaps you will have to settle for ineffective protest.
There isn't much "boot licking" in software these days. Tyrants have a difficult time hiring worker bees who tolerate abuse. So dial back the hyperbole because it doesn't help your cause. Unless (of course) your "cause" is to simply be provocative. Then by all means crank it up and see how long you have listeners.
Re:Who are you talking about? (Score:4, Insightful)
While there are such people as you described, Perkins isn't one of them. He was a middle manager, an employee. He was as much a peon working for a wage as the people who ride the Google buses. He didn't take any risks at all. He just rode HP's success. I'm sure he contributed to that success, but he was hardly going out on a limb to achieve it. And he got rich.
Tens of thousands of people try the startup route. The vast majority of them fail. Just because he got lucky and found a fairy godmother, he thinks everyone else should too. As if it was a choice. As if he planned it. He acts like he's unaware that you can make all the right decisions in a startup and still fail. Because you can only make those decisions with the information you had at the time, and no one has perfect information. If you're lucky, you have access to the information you need to make decisions that result in success. If you're not, you follow the route of the other 9/10 startups. As a venture capitalist, he knows this, at some level. He just can't acknowledge it, so he indulges in hyperbolic thinking like comparing a few toothless meaningless protests to Nazi Germany. It's intellectually dishonest, but he wouldn't be allowed into all the right clubs if he didn't toe the party line, so he does.
Re:Who are you talking about? (Score:2, Insightful)
Ok, so you didnt work hard enough to meet the people you need to meet.
Hard work is the worst predictor of success. Whose vagina you came out of, and who put you in there, is the best. Period, the end, go home and stop blaming the victim.
Re:Pathetic (Score:4, Insightful)
Or, it may simply be that existing places where public buses stop to load and disgorge passengers -- happen to be someone's crazy idea of good places for private buses to do the same.
I've seen places where bus stops have a pullout area so as to be out of a traffic lane while stopped. Don't know if that applies here, but think about it... what sense would it make to deliberately stop somewhere other than a bus stop, for the express purpose of avoiding bus stops?
If you think the private companies should put in their own bus stops, grand. But they can't just go out and tear up streets without permission from city and/or state governments, which may or may not ever accomplish anything anyway.
We put up public infrastructure for people to use. I'm reasonably certain we can't discriminate against people with too much money.