Ask Slashdot: What's the Best Place To Relocate? 999
New submitter tsakas writes: "I am an IT researcher from southern Europe looking for a good place to relocate. Markets are pulling the teeth out of the strong European countries by destroying the south. The U.S. is in debt and there is no way of telling how long this can go on. China and India are on the rise. Brazil and Australia are looking good. The question: Which city would you choose to go and start a family if you were to stay there for a) 5, b) 10 and c) 20 years?"
Mars (Score:5, Funny)
Earth is screwed
Re:Mars (Score:5, Funny)
Dude, I'm not saying Earth is all that, but post-industrial Mars is a wasteland. Until they get the manufacturing sector working again, you're better off at home.
Re:Mars (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Mars (Score:5, Funny)
Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids.
Actually, raising your kids on Mars is 2.66 times easier than on Earth.
Re:Mars (Score:5, Funny)
Can you imagine the seven-month journey with your kids, and the whole time they're screaming, "Are we there yet?"
No, and if you don't quit your whining, I'm going to turn this spaceship around.
Re:Mars (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, you have room, but the TSA won't let you take more than a few ounces.
Kansas (Score:5, Informative)
Google Fiber
Oh Canada! (Score:5, Insightful)
Canada is the place to be IMHO. With the stable economy, the speedy rise of the IT sector and easy Permanent Residence options, it should be your best bet, both in the short and the long run.
Re: (Score:3)
Canada is the place to be IMHO. With the stable economy, the speedy rise of the IT sector and easy Permanent Residence options, it should be your best bet, both in the short and the long run.
Canada is teetering right now, and banks are being warned to prepare for a housing collapse much like what happened in the US. A few other things, housing prices are sliding across the country, generally down 5-30% depending on where you are. Vancouver is down around 15%, Toronto is down around 10% on prices from last year. Houses that are on the market, stay on the market for a long time. I live in the SWON(South-western Ontario), and places here are sticking around for 6-9 months before selling. I'm
Re:Oh Canada! (Score:5, Funny)
Vancouver: 19 degrees
Jesus! Didn't expect 100 miles to make that much of a difference. We sure drew that border at the right place.
Re: (Score:3)
Look at the climate in Vancouver.
Look at the wages and house prices in Vancouver.
Re: (Score:3)
Look at the climate in Vancouver.
Look at the wages and house prices in Vancouver.
Look at the gang violence in Vancouver. I like the city, but let's not pretend it's all peaches and cream.
Re:Oh Canada! (Score:4, Informative)
It depends on which way you go about it. The usual one, where you apply for permanent residency from outside the country... yeah, good luck with waiting for the backlog there. On the other hand, the provincial nominee program (PNP), where you get in the country on a regular work visa, work for a year, and then apply for PR, is still a reasonably fast and simple way to get PR and then citizenship. Less problem with "oversubscribing" there because there are far fewer people who can get a work visa to begin with, and once you're in, you go on a priority track. And you don't have to worry about visa terms, since, once you've applied for PNP, if your work visa expires you can extend it essentially indefinitely and make it open (i.e. not tied to a particular employer) until you get a final judgment on your PR.
Case in point: it took me ~2 years to get PR, starting from early 2010. This is for BC, so I don't know how other provinces fare in comparison - I'd expect the backlog to be somewhat bigger in Ontario and Quebec, and about the same in Alberta.
Stay where you are (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I actually agree right now. A few years back I'd have said move to somewhere like Australia, or Canada, or similar. But frankly, both these countries have taken political turns for the worse. Honestly, if the problems in southern Europe are really problematic for you, just move further North in Europe for now - Germany, France, the UK, or one of the Scandinavian nations.
Canada needs to kick the Conservatives back into the long grass with a massive electoral defeat that means they'll be un-electable for at l
Check Out this place: (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Check Out this place: (Score:5, Insightful)
What benefits would that provide to the submitter?
Re: (Score:3)
No, that's the country that will be underwater in 25 years.
Dont belong anywhere (Score:5, Insightful)
As a person who was born in one country, brought up in a second, did college in a third, married a woman in a fourth, and when back to live in the country I did college in, I do not belong anywhere. I would move to any country that provided me with an opportunity I was interested in. There are stupid immigration hurdles and such you have to deal with, and those are artificial constructs that we have created to slow the movement of people like me.
There is a saying in my parent's tongue. I am a pigeon, I fly wherever the seeds are. You should do that too.
Re:Dont belong anywhere (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dont belong anywhere (Score:5, Funny)
My fellow Earthicans,
We need to take a stand against all the illegal aliens coming to our fair planet to probe for jobs. To this end, we will build a Dyson fence around the southern border of the solar system...
Re: (Score:3)
So long as GP pays his taxes and performs his civic duties while residing in any particular country, how is it "crapping all over them"?
Too little info (Score:5, Insightful)
China and India are on the rise. Brazil and Australia are looking good.
Can you speak the language? What are the immigration policies of these countries?
Re:Too little info (Score:5, Informative)
It's funny how people from Western countries with ridiculously lax immigration procedures go abroad, expecting every country to be just like their own. They are shocked, shocked to find out that a visa is a sovereign act of a nation and it is that country's choice to set the rules.
Re:Too little info (Score:4, Informative)
India and Australia speak English.
Re:Too little info (Score:4, Insightful)
Note that Australia is pretty hostile to immigration and it can be tough even for white people to get in.
Confirmed - if you don't find an employer to sponsor you [immi.gov.au], the wait period is forever-and-a-day.
Some other things: most livable cities [wikipedia.org] + Melbourne still on top [abc.net.au]
However, don't forget most expensive cities for expats [wikipedia.org]
If you have kids, no matter where you immigrate, good chances to be a nightmare for a period of 1-4 years - a no-no if your kids are past the primary school age.
Southern Europe may mean: Italy, Spain, Greece - Italian and Greek expats communities are pretty common, Spaniards not that much in English speaking countries.
Anyway, European countries have rather high population densities and good public transport coverage. US, Australia (and Canada??) are countries with huge suburban sprawls, owning a car is almost survival level (don't expect a shopping centre just as you exist your place and don't expect frequent buses in suburbs). Of course, if you are lucky (and find a good paid job) you may be able to afford to rent in central areas, but don't bet on it.
India - hmmmm... if you can think of a very busy market day (or a festival day) but forget about the fun, you'd have a pretty good idea on how the everyday streets in India look like (at least the case in major IT centres).
The car traffic is insane, a continuous rush hours except 4-5 hours during the night. Nobody seems to follow any other rule but "I want to go where I need" and nobody seems to care about incessant honking - I was under continuous stress my week in India, my brain interpreted the honking as "you are in immediate danger" (until I get adjusted to the idea they are using it just to signal their presence). Frequently, cars and motorcycles will even use footpaths to overtake. Malaria is a risk; one may (or may not) get adjusted with the food.
Power outages (of smaller scale than the recent major ones) are frequent - my experience: almost daily, of 3-15 minutes duration. If you have kids, I would strongly advice you against... otherwise, if you have a big adventurous spirit, why not?
China? Do you speak mandarin (for the mainland China)? What about Cantonese (for Honk Kong)? If neither, maybe it's not such a good idea
Re:Too little info (Score:4, Insightful)
That's going to vary tremendously (Score:5, Insightful)
It depends on what you value. You're from "Southern Europe". That's semi-specific. What sort of place are you looking for? Good schools? What kind of community do you want? What kind of language skills do you have and/or are willing to acquire? What sort of culture are you looking for?
Plus, your economic analysis is overly simplistic:
The U.S. is in debt and there is no way of telling how long this can go on.
If the US experiences a major economic collapse, there is no place in the world where you won't feel the effects of that. Or at least, no place in the world where you can hold a job as an "IT researcher".
Re:That's going to vary tremendously (Score:4, Insightful)
His nic is "Tsakas". Now think, which semi-bankrupt Southern European country could he be from. Given that he is looking to exit one country which was living beyond its means and was called on it, the US looks too familiar. One day China is going to call in the debts. From here it looks as though the US is trying to reduce immigration anyway, not the best option.
Only 20 years? (Score:4, Insightful)
But you said raising a family.
This means "where would you go so your kids will have the best opportunities in their lifetimes."
Unless money to travel and attend college abroad is no object, this requires a much longer time horizon than 20 years.
Unfortunately, any reasonably precise prediction of where the world - or any part of it - will be politically and socially 20+ years from now has a high margin of uncertainty.
The US. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think you actual understand the economic issue.
I suspect you don't understand the EU's issue on a big scale either.
The grass is not always greener.... (Score:5, Insightful)
No matter where you look, each location will have its own fair share of problems. Rather then picking a location based on economics and political issues, pick a location where you will be happy.
Now obviously, being happy is contingent on being employed and being able to live where you choose, but I guarantee you one thing, following the money does not always work.
Australia (Score:5, Interesting)
Good weather. Anglophone. Fun people. Healthy culture. Melbourne was just voted the most livable city in the world again. Economy booming because of natural resources being mined out of the ground and sent to China. All you really need to adapt to is driving on the left.
I hear what others say about Scandinavia, and those countries truly have their shit together, but I'd find the long dark winters to be very depressing.
Re:Australia (Score:4, Interesting)
The way I'd like to do it is alternate between the summer in Norway and the summer in Chile. I love mountains and seaside.
"On the rise" (Score:5, Insightful)
One thing you have to keep in mind that China and India "on the rise" are still far worse off than US and Europe. There's no guarantee they'll be better in 20 years even if they sustain that rise, which they won't necessarily do - China in particular has a pretty nasty bubble ready to burst.
I'd stick to developed countries for the simple reason that you get some basic guarantees there that you don't in the third world should things go very wrong. For the same reasons I'd avoid US long-term - it's a good place to earn money during the productive period of your career, but not so good to retire in. If you're already in Europe, it's probably easier to go for one of the better developed countries there as they're more likely to weather the storms - Germany or France are two obvious destinations. Then there's Scandinavia - Finland looks surprisingly decent on many counts if you're willing to live with the weather.
If you are really bent on seeking something outside of Europe, consider Canada - a saner version of US on so many counts, especially economy wise. And you still have US nearby, which is convenient for shopping and some other things. Very easy to immigrate to, as well. Australia is also a very decent option, and if you're a believer in China long-term, you should consider them for the simple reason that it's in the same region and China is their major trade partner.
What's ... (Score:5, Funny)
What's the Best Place To Relocate?
That's a tough question. Most areas are heavily acclimated to their current location. Anything non-trivial would have to swapped with something else, rather than simply relocated. Swapping even geographic close regions like North and South Dakota could have drastic unforeseen consequences; certainly swapping larger areas like France and Spain are right out. Perhaps a building or ballpark would be a good candidate for relocation, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
Any ideas /. ?
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
One word.... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:One word.... (Score:4, Informative)
Singapore. I worked there for two weeks at the Marina Bay Sands project. English is the primary language, the area is beautiful and clean. Hated coming home. I'd still move my wife and kids there in a second.
Singapore is nice, just be ware of the various laws and lack of freedoms. They still have caning in Singapore, and the death penalty. No idea what the safety net's like if you get laid off either -- Healthcare, schooling etc.
that's quite ambitious (Score:5, Funny)
Sweden (Score:3, Informative)
The economy here isn't bad at all and it's quite peaceful, even in the capital Stockholm. :)
Sweden's definitely a great place to start a family as the society do a lot for the parents (compared to many countries).
I moved there a year ago and I have no regret at all
Oh, and Swedish isn't that difficult to learn at all, you'll be just fine speaking English until you learn it!
Bonus: if you haven't found a spouse yet, I can say that there are some really beautiful girls here too ;)
Reading too much into the cover of The Economist (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds like you are basing your decisions on a glance at the financial section of a magazine rack...
"Trouble in Europe"? Oh no! Better get out of here!
"Trouble in The US"! Oh no! Better not move there!
"Indonesia at a crossroads" Hmm, sounds promising!
Try opening the thing up next time and actually read what's going on. Then take the "am I ready to live in am emerging market?" quiz:
Do you like to have to bribe your way around the local bureaucracy?
Do you like to live within a mile of crushing poverty?
Do you like to endure social, natural, and economic crises?
If you answered yes to all of these, then yes an emerging market is for you (i.e. Brazil, China, India, etc). If you answered no to any of them, stay in a Western country. Keep your skills current and if the place goes downhill, just relocate again. Hell, you did it once, right?
Brazil (Score:4, Informative)
We are not. No education to speak of, a government which is making the same mistakes which resulted in the European crisis, lots of crime and violence. Also we are more and more becoming an exporter of commodities, because our tax system is totally regressive and cumulative, working against manufacturing and services by making everything very, very expensive — and we have lower salaries than those of the First World.
I lived in Europe. Only reason I did not stay was that I was not allowed to.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Look at Economics (Score:3, Interesting)
Oxymoron Question (Score:5, Interesting)
1st of all: If I would want to start a family I wouldn't plan to go anywhere for less than 20 years. Times are unruly enough as it is. With children you want a good school, a good community and - most important of all - a good wife and her our yours or both families near by. Everything else comes second!
If you want to start a family you should even consider a career change if that is required to provide for the other things mentioned above. The family will be your primary fullfillment, not the job, so you might as well work as a bricklayer, provided the income is enough. Also factor in: Free housing or easy real estate from your family or in-laws, quality of life, happiness of wife (where does she want to live and raise children) etc. All of these are *way* more important than monetary income. Especially in times like these.
If I'd start a family again, I'd move together with my girlfriend in the town she lives, simply because her career is way more solid than mine right now. And I wouldn't care if I were the main caregiver to children and would be driving a dump-truck on the side. Be prepared to do that aswell if your future wife turns out to be the vice-exec of some uprising company or having and wanting to keep a more stable career than you aparently have right now.
2.) If you want to earn money in IT and are prepared to leave everything behind, you do the full monty and should get prepared to move anywhere within a few weeks notice, at any time and occasion. Singapur, Silicon Valley, Moskow, Dubai perhaps and maybe some high-polpulation areas in china are where the partys at right now. Live out of the suitcase or in microapparments for the next 15 years, rake in some stable cash or real estate and buy/build a home for your old age.
3.) If you aren't prepared to go full-on cyberpunk and move around the globe for the rest of your working career you should stay put right where you are and adapt. If the Euro goes belly-up and the world finally notices that the US dollar isn't worth the paper its printed on then you'll be glad if you've got some contacts to a local farmer and some real-estate and a small shed on it somewhere in southern europe. And maybe some solar panels to power your computers. I'd be happy if I had that. I'm living in a single room sharing flat with 6 people in Germany and right now things aren't looking up, even for an expert like me. Living expenses are through the roof, the IT staff shortage is nothing but a legend to keep wages at the 2002 minimum and inflation is ramping up allready.
Bottom line: Move for the family you want to start, and *only* for that, go fully international and prepare to relocate to Timbuktu if the money and/or the benefits package is right or stay put, get by somehow and prepare for some elongated worldwide economic downtime.
My 2 cents.
Melbourne, Vienna, or Vancouver (Score:4, Informative)
source:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9475307/London-slips-down-list-of-best-cities-despite-glorious-Olympics.html [telegraph.co.uk]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_livable_cities [wikipedia.org]
Montreal, qc, Oh Canada (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking for my church.
We don't have the recession, we don't have the climate problem, we don't have gun, neither any strong social/cultural problem.
We do have a strong IT/software development infrastructure from aerospace to game field or financial institution.
We are a multilingual and multicultural city, you can find food and language from anywhere around the globe here.
We do have apartment or house that doesn't ask you a arm.
We do have nice commuting infrastructure, the metro (subway) are underground, some apartment building and office building have direct access to the metro... so you don't have to but your nose outside during the cold day of the winter or the hot day of the summer.
We have a unique family policy that put the children as a societal value (6-8 month of parental care for a new birth, cheap children gardening, real restaurant with children place...)
In the city of Montreal, you will find a lot of natural park and children park.
Park are big enough to do mountain bike, skying, and so on....
Lot of Europeans people work in the IT field in Montreal, you will not look that strange...
It's easy to have the canadien residence for a european
If you have a diploma from a know european university, you will have a job faster than the canadian residence.
Better question (Score:5, Insightful)
The better question is where can I relocate and survive outsourcing? Outsourcing is the number one threat to job stability no matter what country you are in. When I was younger I thought it was a problem with job being outsourced from more expensive northern states to cheaper southern states - it was. As I grew older I learned that was just the tip of the iceberg and that outsourcing meant you were competing against people all over the world. Outsourcing means that your job can be sent all over the world.
It doesn't matter where you go, you will face the same problems. Not only that you will also face all of the challenges of being an immigrant. Over the years I have talked with IT people from places like India and even there they outsource their jobs to other firms.
The bottom line is that you have to find a job that is difficult to outsource. There are ways to do this, for example find a job that can't be outsourced out of the country for national security reasons. Find a job that involves working directly with people and requires face to face interaction as a consultant. Find a job that requires your presence and not your skills.
You can be replaced, and companies will spend a fortune to do do it because in the long run they /perceive/ that they will save an even larger fortune by doing so.
Other places (Score:4, Interesting)
The US is still a great place to live, but assuming you are part of the new trend of US haters, I would recommend you look at the following places:
1) Vancouver, Canada
2) Japan (one of the non-irradiated sections)
3) Norway
4) New Zealand
5) Switzerland
But those would be my preferences, yours may differ.
There's nowhere left to hide... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think I've read stories about people from just about anywhere feeling the need to move in order to escape bad economic conditions. You hear a lot about people bringing up Australia or Germany. I don't see any long-term scenario in which other countries of the world are flailing but Germany and Australia are thriving. Economies are too interdependent these days.
One should choose a city where they have the strongest base of support from family and friends. If thinks get worse, you will need to rely on those people.
Germany ! - Welcome to Germany (Score:4, Interesting)
1.) very reasonable priced health care ! (contributions will be transfered by your employer to the insurance company from your salary)
- the health care insurance company is not allowed to pick, they have to take anybody
2.) good job market
3.) reasonable priced rent
4.) you can mostly get along with speaking english,
but learning german is not that hard,
Example: that iranian young women whose face pic was taken from facebook by western media due to a name glitch, she was prosecuted by the mullahs,
got asylum here and after only one and a half year she is fluent and speaks execelent, she was on radio last week.
If you want to learn german the national public radio (not npr) has a livestream,
http://www.dradio.de/ [dradio.de]
you can also find places on the internet where you can watch our exported tv series ("Der Tatort" which translates as "The Crime Scene" or "Derrek" these got even dubbed with japanese language for Japan of course!!)
5.) state forced sponsored pension (will be transfered by your employer as part of your salary) after your 67 birth day these insurance benefits will be paid
6.) disabled persons & families are last to be fired (workers rights)
7.) strong unions
8.) from north to south, funny speaking people
9.) reasonable wages
When you negotiate your salary keep taxes and other things in mind (~%43 will be subtracted from your salary) so just add it beforehand !
10.) IT, Tech & Engineering Jobs
I love my country so I'd like to present my country to people in this world, european, african, asian, indian.
Think of finding a job ?
-> Try Germany!
Scandanavia (Score:5, Informative)
If by "Europe" is doing badly you must surely mean the Eurozone. Unemployment in Norway/Sweden/even formerly bankrupt Iceland is very good. If you're having kids, the 2 months mandatory paternity leave in Sweden would be nice. You'd get to spend time with your kids and not have to work all the time and it allows your spouse to keep a career too. The governments themselves are very stable with the lowest levels of corruption in the world (if only Greece could say the same!), allowing the high tax rate to give you a decent rate of return on services you receive.
In short, it's the southern European welfare state on steroids but done responsibly.
From southern Europe? (Score:4, Informative)
Giorgo, is that you?
On a more serious tone, and as others pointed out above, you should have provided us with more clues. Relocating is an issue with lots of variables that vary strongly in each case. Having said that, all tips that one can give you can only be vague/anecdotal at best. Here are mine:
1. I am Greek working in Germany for 7 years now. Whether you can feel safe economically here strongly depends on who you work for. I work for a large chemical company (>15.000 employes worldwide) and can't complain. However, we now hire only if we explicitly need to fill a vacant place.
2. My Greek family and friends from my school/university years are all over the globe: Germany, Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Brazil, UK. Those that are still in Greece plan to go away. However, this should come as no surprise. Greeks always had the tendency to migrate (also for no apparent reason) and this can only be enhanced by an economic crisis.
3. Strangely, some friends that were in USA came back (before the crisis broke out). Personal reasons also came into play, but it seemed that the conditions in the USA were not overwhelmingly good so as to encourage their stay.
4. In Australia you first need to get a well paying job in order to qualify for a visa. You can't go there looking for a job as many would imagine. This is likely to be valid for other countries as well.
My 2 cents.
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
Umm.. no. If you are going to North America, go to Canada. Specifically Western Canada. Crime is very very low compared to the US, the economy is very strong compared to everywhere else in the world, and we don't expect you to shed your culture.
Re: (Score:3)
Come to San Antonio and see which culture is being shedded
Re:US (Score:4, Informative)
Re:US (Score:4, Informative)
Canada? In the west? No. The U.S. is still being used as the world's currency for trading the world's fuel: Oil. It has a massive debt but that debt is being propped-up by everyone else, so we still have many good years left.
I would locate to the Northeast along the I-95 corridor since there are tons & tons of jobs there. Also lots of cities so you'll never get bored. (And you can get Free TV because those same cities broadcast free entertainment on almost every channel (6 to 51).) The northeast also has cheap internet. I pay $15 a month for DSL, or have the option to pay $50 a month for highspeed FiOS or cable.
Re:US (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course if money is your primary choice, I would suggest Australia.
As someone who thought the same a few years back, I'd highly discourage this as a course of action. In Australia, I made far more money than in my native New Zealand, but it was all eaten up with the ridiculous cost of living. Sure, some places might be cheaper than Sydney, but good luck finding a well paying job outside of Sydney (if you do, grab it - it probably WILL be worth it).
Since moving to Hannover, Germany, my pay stayed around the same or increased slightly and my cost of living went down by more than 50%. I feel significantly better off here than I ever did in Sydney.
Re:US (Score:4, Insightful)
Nah, the Canuks are shitting the bed as fast as the other western nations. They just have further to fall, so they look better right now.
They've let a bunch of ultra-conservative wingnuts get hold that are trying their damn hardest to turn the place in to the 52nd state. If you want to see Canada in 10 years, see Australia.
Let me guess, you are either a teenaged Canadian who never lived under an NDP government and you get your news from American liberal media or you are an American Obama supporter who is completely clueless about Canadian politics.
The Canadian conservative party is "fiscally" conservative. Our prime minister is a boring economist with a masters degree and that is the way we like it. Americans have no clue what the conservative party stands for. Our economy is still doing better than the American and European countries and our Canadian dollar is currently on cent above the US dollar.
Re:US (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, Our 'fiscal conservative' govn't that blew through the liberal's surplus, and is creating the largest deficit in the history of the nation. Some fucking fiscal conservatism that is.
I'm old enough to have lived through provincial NDP governments, and they've been the most fiscally sound we've ever had, while at the same time increasing social programs.
tory times are tough times.
Re:US (Score:4, Insightful)
FYI, signs of China's economy slowing down since last year.
Also FYI, be good at what you do and no financial crisis can hurt you.
Re:US (Score:5, Informative)
Also FYI, be good at what you do and no financial crisis can hurt you.
History tells a different story.
Being good at what you do alone will not insulate you from financial crisis's, you also have to make good business decisions.
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
And not start from the bottom of the pile in the first place.
Hubris (Score:4, Interesting)
Also FYI, be good at what you do and no financial crisis can hurt you.
Deep, classical hubris.
FInancial crises promote societal upheavals. They crash stock markets. They wipe out real estate values. They destroy savings accounts. They turn cities into war zones. If you're rich enough, you get to learn all about the wonderful world of K&R insurance, and the wonder of placing full-time bodyguards with your children. You get to live behind more walls than most Supermax inmates. Your spouse begins to take their frustration out on you, as do your kids.
You become acutely aware of how far away the panic room is, and you push down any thoughts that someone might not come when you call for help from inside. You hire people to carry guns for you, and you have to worry as much about them as you do any bad guys. You become a family under seige. Even your kid's puppy love has to be fiercely vetted and worried about as a potential gold-digger.
Your whole world becomes as much about fear and survival as any plane crash victim lost in the wilderness. Your doctor recommends anti-anxiety drugs, and THAT becomes something to worry about.
So there you are, as grim as any soldier in a losing battle. Your food is exquisite and tasteless. Your insomnia is at least wrapped in silk sheets. Spend as much money on hookers as you want. You'll never get close to what a woman who loves you can do for you.
And remember, this is what happens when you have enough money to try to insulate yourself from the upheaval. "Being good at what you do," means you're just another working stiff, and the functional difference between $100K and homeless isn't nearly as much as you might like to think...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Choose US if you are ambitious and good at what you do. There is no country on Earth that will offer you the same opportunity to succeed and the same liberty to pursue your goals without excessive interference from the government, while at the same time offering strong rule of law and minimum corruption. Ignore the impression you might have from Hollywood movies. Apart from some inner city ghettos, the quality of life in the US is amazing. Chose Canada or Scandinavia if you are insecure about your ability
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm. I disagree, as someone who left the US and moved to Canada to start a business.
The process is actually exactly as easy here, overall, my taxes are comparable- maybe slightly lower (Washington vs Alberta), and the crime rate in this city is substantially lower, despite it being a very close approximation of the same place in the US (Seattle vs Calgary).
Canada's economy has a stronger growth outlook for the 5 year horizon than the US, the dollar is stronger than the greenback (though that's bad if you're exporting) and the housing market has been much more stable. Plus, I don't have to shell out $900 per month per employee for health coverage. I'm not sure I could afford to do that, I'd probably just go without... And that sucks, but it's the price of being an entrepreneur in the US, and that's pretty fuckin' lame if you ask me.
If you look at studies, the US has a lower economic mobility and a higher prevalance of "social class" being an indicator of future success than almost any country in the world (it rivals Russia in this way).
Having seriously lived in both places and having moved to Canada to start a business, I'm going to tell you that you have been fed a line of patriotic froth and while you're free to blather on with your opinion, it's pretty funny to watch from here.
Re:US (Score:4, Informative)
It's a myth that the US still has the highest social mobility. It used to, but it stalled. Europe is now the better place to make your ambitions come true, unless you are already rich and you want to become a millionaire. The US is still the millionaire's paradise.
The minimum of corruption is also false. Corruption is inherent in the US political system, which relies on corporate money. Corruption is much lower in northern Europe (but less so in the south).
The US is a great place to be for the haves. They control the money, the media, the politics, the government, the patents, etc. It can still be okay if you can get support from the haves: VCs, get bought by a major company, etc. But if you want to be your own man, do your own thing, and benefit from your own growth, Europe is the better place now.
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
US Bond Rates (US Debt) is currently under inflation. Really that means countries are buying US dollars at a loss to them. In a global recession like this, the whole world is screwed. The US is strong enough to endure this. The idea of China is going to cash in all at once is ludicrous because if the US economy is killed so is China's.
What people don't seem to realize, we are in a global recession, during these recessions most of the normal rules of economics are messed up.
Recession isn't a lack of money but the lack of moving it around. So...
1. The Rich will hoard all their money they make. They will not start investing it out (trickle down) until the economy improves, right now many investments are too risky so they will hold on to their profits, vs using it towards growth.
2. Putting money in Low Yield but Safe investments. (High US debt,) US Bonds are the safest place to put your money... Yes at the rates you will loose money, but you will loose it at a slower rate then other investments.
3. Increased Crime, People who do not have an income will get what they want at any costs, also the rich who do have what they want will try every trick in the book to prevent too much loss. So more crime happens and the victims (sometimes poor, sometime rich) loose what is theirs, thus making life harder for them.
4. Radical Political Stance. Things have gone wrong. the guys in charge seem to be moderates and doing too little too slowly. Lets try to get someone who will make the trains run on time, and punish the opposition who possibly caused the problem in the first time.
5. Less funding on infrastructure. Things go in disrepair and we cannot benefit as much from it.
What happened with this recession (A very basic explanation/my opinion) is that it was building up for a long time (I would say from the mid 90's) Because between the mid-late 90's-mid 2000's we had a decade of bubbles (false economic success) First we had the y2k fix/internet tech bubble, we had a need to upgrade or redo our infrastructure to handle Y2K, being that a lot of it is just get new stuff, we started to take advantage of the new stuff (Aka Internet) so we had a bubble there, with young kids with Economy 2.0 and sell at a loss and make it up by selling a lot of it. After 2001/2 the infrastructure had been upgraded, and the stupid business models couldn't hold on for that long. So the Tech bubble popped. But at the same time, of the tech bubble popped we got the housing bubble. Like the tech bubble, we got a lot of bad (illegal) business ideas accepted by well known companies. Democrats and Republicans didn't do much to stop it, because citizens are getting the American dream of their own home, and the growth seemed endless. We saw signs of trouble but were ignorant of it because the bubble was keeping us going. After the housing bubble popped, we didn't have a strong bubble to go onto the next step. Thus a Huge recession.
It is a perfect storm that causes a downward spiral, that feeds itself. Unfortunately the only thing that will really fix it, is time. At some point there will some new invention or idea that will spur more innovation. The rich will want to expand again, and things will improve. Having this recovery be slow, although it is very painful for a lot of people, is probably a good thing over all. We are building strong fundamentals (which Bush was incorrect when he said that) again, our core values are returning, get rich quick isn't the mantra anymore. So things will slowly get better.
The United States has actually weathered the recession over all a lot better then most other countries.
Re:US (Score:5, Informative)
The US - still the best place to live
That's simply not true. The best places to live are canada, australia or northern europe.
e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_livable_cities or http://money.msn.com/family-money/the-worlds-15-best-places-to-live/ etc.
For a southern european the best (and by far easiest) bet is simply northern europe, including germany, but preferably somewhere not in the euro zone. Even somewhere that is indexed to the euro, but not on the euro.
The US can be lucrative if you're in IT. But it has unnecessarily long work hours, bad health care, and a persistent civil rights and racism problem that aren't worth dealing with if you can avoid it. Not that europe doesn't have racism problems too, but they're different than in the US, so why deal with the US problem at all? If you go to the US and have kids you have to worry about the education they'll get, how you'll pay for post secondary etc. In a civilized country those are problems, but at 1/10th the magnitude, so why would you deal with it? Healthcare is the same sort of problem. If you're going to the US you may as well talk about brazil, russia, china, there are all very lucrative opportunities but you can also end up really screwed if the police or government or just some random local asshole decides they want rid of you.
If you're seriously worried about politics then the US and UK in particular are bad places to be. Both have political parties (the conservatives in the UK and the Republicans in the US) pushing thoroughly discredited economic policies on their own country, and that again, is just not worth dealing with. It's not that their problems aren't solvable, it's that the people in charge are deliberately not solving them. Germany is in the same boat, but their discredited policies are fucking over the rest of europe, rather than themselves.
Failing a european solution, which from an immigration perspective is by far the easiest, your second choice is probably canada. Australia is probably more lucrative, and you don't have to worry about being dragged down by the americans the way we do in canada, or buried in our own internal political stupidity (the french separatists in quebec, the Alberta-ontario split on oil vs manufacturing etc.) but canada is much closer to europe physically, which makes going home a lot less painful.
Then it's a matter of immigration. I'm not 100% sure on australia, but I would think they have the same thing as everywhere else, if you have paper IT skills it's easier to get immigration, at which point any of canada, australia, new zealand all work reasonably well.
The problem is the questioner is an "IT Researcher". It's hard to know what exactly that means. Is that a PhD in some IT field looking for a faculty position? Then basically anywhere you can find a job is the right answer, because faculty positions are decent everywhere. If you're looking for private sector research that's much harder, because it depends what you can do exactly.
It's not that there aren't great opportunities in second and 3rd world countries, there are, but if you don't know your way around the local system it's very hard to capitalize on those without a lot of money to start with. If you're just looking for a job to settle your life down with, then go somewhere with a high per capita income, decent vacation time, decent education and decent healthcare (on which the US gets 1/4, canada australia 3/4 and northern europe 4/4).
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
*High work hours are easy to fix -
http://squirrelers.com/2010/10/20/vacation-days-by-country-how-do-we-rate/
By moving to europe. US 25 days off a year. Just about everywhere else on the list, more than 30, with some over 40. Even working a shitty call centre job in ireland will get you 5 weeks vacation. Finding that in the US or canada if you're not a professor is basically impossible.
*Health care is not an issue with health insurance (salaried IT worker). US physician skill level, medical equipment, drugs, and access/availability of care are top notch.
False. Lose your job, lose your insurance. You also pay a lot for inferior care. Even those insured in the US get bad care. The problem in the US is that you actually get a lot of treatments (even covered ones) that aren't very good, and insurance providers are interested in reducing costs or attracting customers with flashy treatments, not trying to provide the best care for the minimum cost. This is why, for example, the poorest in the UK get better healthcare on average than the richest in the US. e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/03/world/europe/03health.html?_r=1 and the UK system provides better outcomes for everyone.
Lets not get into things like lifetime caps on insurance, or not getting preventative care covered, because Obamacare will theoretically help but it's still an enormously wasteful system.
I saw significantly more racism/hate of specific foreign cultures/immigrants when living in areas of Finland
Without a doubt. Europe has a racism problem. It's just a different racism problem than the one in the US. If you're used to the one in europe why bother getting used to the one in the US? The racism problem in europe is going to get worse before it gets better as it becomes 'blame the turk' 'blame the arab' 'blame the indian' 'blame the roma' etc. for all that ails them, and their lack of jobs.
but they're often expensive
Unnecessarily expensive. As an american you are in many cases likely to get a better education for less money by being a foreign student in Canada or europe (paying 20k a year in tuition) than by staying in the US. Some of the state schools in the US aren't bad and aren't soul crushingly expensive, but every school in canada australia or europe is 'not bad and not soul crushingly expensive'.
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
The US's major creditor is also its biggest trading partner. China can't wreck the US economy without destroying their own. And if you think the US needs Chinese stuff, China needs US markets more. The debt is not a big deal other than as a political flamebait; if it was, institutional money wouldn't still be using dollars as a reserve currency and running up US equity markets.
Re:US (Score:5, Informative)
The US's major creditor is itself [wikipedia.org]. Foreign investment accounts for only 32% of US debt. China just happens to be the largest single foreign owner, but their ownership of total US debt is only about $1.2 Trillion or about 11% of total debt.
You are correct though, China's economy is very dependent upon the US and they do not have enough control, power, influence, etc, to crash the US economy.
Re:US (Score:4, Informative)
Re:US (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:US (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh so the feds only have to take 100% of the economy and apply it to the debt. So easy. Good luck with that.
You know Greece has less debt per capita than the US, right? How happy are they?
Re:US (Score:5, Informative)
It is a huge Deal!
No, really, it's not. Saying it's a huge deal doesn't make it a huge deal.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/pages/textview.aspx?data=yield
Your debt is at negative interest rates for anything past 10 year notes. 16 trillion dollars is spread across 330 million people.
What matters isn't how much debt you have. That sounds strange, but hear me out. If you owed me 1 million dollars but I was charging you 1% interest a year (10k/year) you could probably manage. If you owed me 100k at 10% interest a year the net cost is the same. So then the issue with the US is whether or not your interest rates are going to magically spike (which despite all the predictions they haven't), and if they do whether or not you can still pay the debt off. Which you can.
The US debt problem is *entirely* an artificial political construction. Right now you should be borrowing several hundred billion dollars a year more to fund job creation (in this case in particular probably infrastructure rebuilding) so you can get the economy back to growing. Paying people unemployment when you could pay them to do work is simply stupid. Leaving people unemployed when there is work that needs to be done and you can borrow money at negative interest rates to pay them to do it is willful damage to the economy.
The way out of any debt problem for a government once the economy picks back up (which is different from a person) is to manage the money supply to keep interest rates low relative to nominal GDP growth (nominal GDP grows with inflation, productivity and population), and then make sure you have sensible tax revenue, especially when the economy is doing well. The US has a nominal GDP growth rate of 5% a year over the last 60 or so years (and remember the government can tweak that number itself with inflation and immigration), so even running a 4% of GDP deficit (which right now would be about 640 billion dollars) is still shrinking the relative size of the debt, which is all that matters.
Re:US (Score:4, Insightful)
But still...so far, we're still doing better than much of the EU which is going down the tubes...
And I can't imagine wanting to live in India or China...from the images I've seen of the general living conditions in each of those countries, I don't think I'd care to live there!! If nothing else, recent articles about India's problems with energy infrastructure.
I kinda go back to an old saying I hears..."...sure the US sucks, but it sucks a whole lot less than it sucks everywhere else in the world.
I'm quite pessimistic these days about the US economy...the printing of money and all as you've alluded to, but hell...I can't imagine it will be a lot better anywhere else in the world at the point in time.
I'm worried about the current administrations spending like a drunken sailor on shore leave....I hope it gets better next year, but I'm not sure of that. It would likely take a bunch of the politicians that cared about the US...to get in there, and not worry about re-election, and vote and do what has to be done.
Those steps would be unpopular with many, but to save the US economy in the long run, we're gonna have to cut a LOT of spending, and a lot of that is social programs, there's just no two ways about it. Medicare will likely go bankrupt in the near future if nothing is done.
And likely any thing seriously done to fix it...will not get you re-elected, but man...someone....actually a large group of folks need to get into office by whatever means....and sacrifice their political careers and fix things.
But, even with that diatribe....I can't see it being any better outside the US. Quality of life and all is still great here, better than what I've seen when I've been outside the country.
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
Er, there's a rather large country with lots of open spaces right next door, that someone might consider as a viable option to the US or Europe. You know, Canada, that place where we've weathered the downturn better, are on track (in 2-3 years or so, unless Europe implodes) to eliminate the temporary deficits we ran up to keep our heads above water during the financial crisis and go back to running surpluses, have universal, single payor health care (at half the price per capita of US health care), similar standard of living, stable democracy, and politicians who are saner than the US ones, even if I don't like anything our current government is doing.
Just sayin'.
(We've got our own problems here, no question, but we're in better shape than the US, for the foreseeable future)
Not Canada! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:US (Score:4, Informative)
1. The Average Canadian is now richer than the average American. [time.com]
2. Regarding Canada's federal debt. As of a year ago Canada's total Public Debt hit $1.1 Trillion [huffingtonpost.ca], but that was only 57.9 % debt to GDP ratio. That is regarded as low and is perfectly fine. Canada can handle that just fine and still sustain robust economic growth. The US recently exceeded a ratio of 100% debt to GDP ratio [zerohedge.com]. That is bad because when the debt ratio exceeds 85-90 % then economic growth is inhibited significantly.
Canada did the right thing running up the deficit during the recession so as to maintain economic growth. The U.S also had to do the same to keep the recession from expanding into a full blown depression. But Canada had good fundamentals -- a relatively low debt -- so it could run large deficits for a while without undue long term effects. It can lower spending later and bring the deficit down using expanded revenues from future GDP growth. The U.S was not in as good a shape having already run large deficits through out the Bush years. Now we are saddled with a huge debt burden that is sapping our growth dooming us to many years of low growth and high unemployment.
This is a list of the ten countries most in debt based on this percentage. [247wallst.com]
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
He knows exactly what exponential [youtube.com] means.
Re: (Score:3)
>>>we're gonna have to cut a LOT of spending, and a lot of that is social programs
You just have to sell it properly. I don't think anyone would complain if you changed them to needs-based programs like welfare and food stamps. And advertised it as: "No more medicare or social security for the rich!" I think there's near-universal agreement that the rich & well-off should not be receiving government assistance. They can live off their own personal savings.
Re:US (Score:5, Informative)
You've never been to Australia, mate. Better quality of life. EU style healthcare so you don't lose your life savings when some doctor surprises you with his out-of-network facility or lab fees. If you get cancer and are too weak to work you don't lose your health coverage, so there's at least some chance of continuing medical treatment undisrupted to possibly beat your disease or at least leave your kids an inheritance. Better work-life balance, longer vacations, less expensive to fly from Oz to hundreds of tropical destinations. A road trip could take you to any type of landscape you prefer (though mostly desert in the interior, but no worse than the American West).
Australia doesn't have as many "enemies" as America, so traveling with an Aussie passport is generally safer, and it isn't as likely to get nuked off the planet in WW3. Only problem is so many people want to move to Australia that immigration is tight. But if you're under 40 and have technical or trade skills you'll probably get in. It helps to speak English like a native speaker, as well as if you come from a Commonwealth country. The Aussies, due to geography, have an advantage trading with China, India, and other nations in the Pacific Rim. Very little national debt, so economy is great, but trying hard to get more immigrants with high-tech skills. Lots of land in the interior, though water is in short supply, so sustainable agriculture for a growing population could be an issue in the future. If China ever seeks military expansion like Japan in WW2 then Australia could be a target for invasion, but what are the odds, right? China on the warpath wouldn't be good for anybody in the way, and the USA is more of a threat to China than Australia. All said, thousands of miles of ocean separating Australia from the rest of the world means that military threats can only come from heavily industrialized nations with substantial military forces. There is illegal immigration, but limited to boat people, so no porous border issues to worry about. Little to no terrorist threat to Aussie soil, though occaissionally Aussies can be targeted in hot zones if the terrorists can't find any Americans. Australia tends to be more "out of sight - out of mind" and generally not considered a threat to any other nations. Aussies also benefit from being a Commonwealth country, making future travel or immigration easier. Better social safety net for people down on their luck (though some abusers too lazy to work, so taxes are higher than the US). Relationship with indigenous people can be touchy at times due to abuses in the past, and some present-day conflicts over sacred sites, but Australian aborigines tend to be easy to get along with. Much less racism compared to KKK and Black Panthers in America. Murder rate is lower as well (4.2 in US vs. 1.0 in Australia, per UNODC). All in all its hard to imagine a much better place.
Re:US (Score:4, Interesting)
Agreed. I'm in Seattle but if/when I move my list would be:
1) Wellington or Dunedin in NZ
2) Sydney
3) Vancouver, BC
4) Singapore
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Eliminate the mortgage interest deduction
That sounds like a cure that's worse than the disease. Unless there's a very careful plan to phase that in gradually, that'll produce a fat pile of foreclosures.
Re:US (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen some of the world, it's OK, I guess. (Score:5, Insightful)
Living in a foreign place can be pretty lonely. It's no surprise that people are of the opinion that their own country is one of the best places to live. It's not a uniquely American phenomena. The handful of Frenchmen I know hold the same view of their homeland (save one, who actually like the US better than France).
I think it takes a certain personality to enjoy travel and new places. Some of us are homebodies, and I think it is unreasonable to view us as backwards or ignorant of the world.
Re:A true American (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a naturalized American who spent 20 years living abroad, mostly in western Europe, there is nothing better than traveling abroad to convince even the most anti-American American (yes there are many, mostly of the 'grass is always greener on the other side' type) just how great the USA really is.
Re:A true American (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm from Canada too, but I disagree with you. (Score:4, Informative)
Have been to the UK, and most of Europe, have lived in the US and in the Congo.
While there are parts of the USA that are nice, on the whole I'll stick with Canada, thanks. Of course our current government really would like to turn Canada into the USA, while I think we'd be better off with a bit less of a gap between haves and have-nots.
Re:I'm from Canada too, but I disagree with you. (Score:5, Insightful)
You must have led a pretty sheltered life to say that.
Re: (Score:3)
It's expensive and time consuming with unpredictable returns.
"Time consuming"? This isn't the ocean liner era, this is the jet age! Leave Heathrow and 13 hours later you're in San Francisco.
When I left England I was excited as all hell about moving to California. The excitement has never 100% worn off, and I've been here 12 years now.
Re:Emigration Sucks (Score:4, Insightful)
Time consuming"? This isn't the ocean liner era, this is the jet age! Leave Heathrow and 13 hours later you're in San Francisco.
You seem to have skipped the part where you wait years for a residency visa/green card and then years more for citizenship so you can't be kicked out at any time. Some of my friends went to California on work permits in the late 90s and were back a few weeks later when their new employer laid them off.
Re:The MOON (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Aye. Imagine, being able to shave microseconds off your fr0st p1sst response times...
Re:Not sure what an IT "researcher" is and if it.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I moved to the San Francisco bay area last year and I'm loving it. Things to add to what AC said:
* Good weather.
* There is something here for everyone. If you like quiet, you can live in the suburbs. If you like more lively, you can live in one of the cities. You can go surfing and skiing on the same day.
* Yes, house and groceries are expensive. On the bright side, if you work for any of the tech companies, you will easily be able to afford things.
* Regarding visas: If you get a job with one of the larger tech companies, they will sponsor your visa. It may take a while before visas become available, though, as there is a quota.
* Companies here are definitely looking for more good people to hire, so if you have the skills they need, your chances of getting here are pretty good.
I don't know about the other places that have been mentioned, so I'll save the commenting on those to people who actually live there.
Re: (Score:3)
Estonia?
Climate is obviously a disadvantage (in winter) but it is very IT orientated and on its way up. No problems with immigration authorities. The cost of living is not *that* high but wages are not that high either - unless you work for Skype.
Re: (Score:3)
Please explain exactly why Europe has a worse future than, say, South America. It has serious problems, but it also has a highly educated population, an industrialized economy, relatively stable political systems (prime ministers come and go, but governments aren't getting overthrown by force like they would in many other places), long life expectancy, and quite a lot of wealth.
Also, I highly suspect you've never been there. If you had, you'd be pretty much crazy to prefer living in, say, the Congo.