Unions do have a place and need in certain industries... it's just that tech isn't one of them. Anyone sufficiently competent in the tech industry can improve him/herself and get a better income over time - far faster than the typical Union could ever get you. There is a sufficient amount of work to be had out there for those who know what they're doing and can prove it... I think that only a brief 2-3 year period during the dot-bust was the main exception, in a field that has technica
Unions do have a place and need in certain industries... it's just that tech isn't one of them.
Tech is special, because we're tech workers and we're special.
Tech jobs are being outsourced faster than shit through a goose. Working conditions are suffering, job satisfaction is suffering, their work week is getting longer, pay is lagging, and we don't need to organize, dammit! Because we're special.
We're not "special" - our circumstances and mechanisms just happen to be unique. Just the way it is.
Yup - there's outsourcing, but 9/10 times, it comes back to bite the corporations that do it, and bites them right in the ass... usually in a spectacularly expensive way. Outsourcing is often touted as a big, bad boogeyman, but it has been around for what, 10-15 years now? Given that amount of time, you'd think that the entire global tech industry would be based in Mumbai or Hyderabad by now - yet it isn't. T
But the modern CEO very rarely stays at any company long enough to feel those effects. They come in, cut and slash, make their bonus...and their off to ruin the next company. Of course I might just be biased; I was recently "work force reduced" at HPE lol...but I got a severance package, so this time I didn't mind as much hahaha.
And if they suck out too much of the money, they go bankrupt and get replaced by someone who wasn't so dumb.
I don't fear outsourcing, I fear falling behind the curve.
Unions aren't going to help that, they just give you another boss. If I was low-skill and in an industry where becoming better wouldn't matter that much, like factory work (which I have done), I'd understand the union's place. In tech? The unions can forget about it. Half the people advocating them are only doing so because they're clueless
Its a Darwinist world. HP chose to infect itself with MBA. Now they will die off in a matter of years.
Also, America chose to infect itself with NY. Maybe Trump can keep NY in check. They certainly scream like Greek Sirens because that is their core capability. If Trump does not suceed, well, too bad. Darwin.
... you'd think that the entire global tech industry would be based in Mumbai or Hyderabad by now - yet it isn't. That's why I'm not too worried that the next 20 years would somehow magically drain all the available work to India (or wherever).
See, here's the thing: It's the wages at the bottom that set a floor for the wages the "high skill tech jobs" are paid. If there's a race to the bottom, you're on the short bus, boyo.
See, here's the thing: It's the wages at the bottom that set a floor for the wages the "high skill tech jobs" are paid. If there's a race to the bottom, you're on the short bus, boyo.
Haha, you wish. Like the wages of workers at fast food places set a floor for the wages of executive chefs at four star restaurants? Get real.
Wages at the bottom set wages at the bottom, nothing more, because there's a vast oversupply of folks with only basic skills. At the top, there's very inadequate supply and booming demand, so it's still a sellers' market if you've got the skills people need.
Like the wages of workers at fast food places set a floor for the wages of executive chefs at four star restaurants?
Tech workers see themselves as the "executive chefs at four star restaurants", when they're really just the bus boys. Even the best of them are just workers. You're not going to be on the cover of any magazine or get a reality TV show of you writing code.
Tech workers see themselves as the "executive chefs at four star restaurants", when they're really just the bus boys. Even the best of them are just workers. You're not going to be on the cover of any magazine or get a reality TV show of you writing code.
Nope, I sure won't. Instead I address technical conferences and write patents. As kids these days would say, "W00T!"
Anyway, have fun with your sour grapes. I'm off to help my fellow "just workers" build some more world changing products.
One problem is that people don't jump from low-skill to high-skill instantaneously. We're building a situation that there are few entry-level jobs for new-grads which allow them to start developing the skills they need to get those "high-skill" jobs. In 20 years when we're all retired, who's going to replace us?
So you'd rather have US technology sector look like Detroit. Union jobs ensure that the union bosses live well and the workers still get screwed as the jobs move overseas anyways. Only difference is the risk of taking the entire company down to foreign competition instead of individual roles within the company because the company gets locked-in to whatever staffing model existed when times were good.
If your job can be done cheaper elsewhere, it will be. It's only a matter of time, and protectionism and unio
So you'd rather have US technology sector look like Detroit.
No, I'd rather have US workers in a system more like Germany's. a country of 80 million people that exports about as much as the United States w/ 350 million.
Don't let right-wing media delude you regarding organized labor. It's the main reason workers anywhere have a decent standard of living.
That's a bit misleading. German trade to Austria and Denmark is export. Microsoft sales from Washington to California are domestic. Germany is exporting so much *because* it's smaller !
That said, German labor relations are a lot healthier than most. Not a European thing, though: French unions are even worse than US unions, and don't shun violence. Ask Air France; strikers (with union backing) physically attacked managers.
Germany consumes its nation in high-speed hamster wheels. Women are consumed in offices and factories; have no time to raise kids. Germans are now replaced by 1 million Arabs just this year.
Similarly, Japan and Korea transform their flesh into massive amounts of consumer goods. In 100 years, there will be neither Germany, nor Korea nor Japan.
Another gem, in the place I live the auto factor workers earn more than the supporting software engineers. It's a shitplace and the smart people move somewhere else. I
COMPASS [for the CDC-6000 series] is the sort of assembler one expects from
a corporation whose president codes in octal.
-- J.N. Gray
Aaaaand.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Corporate shills claiming victory and deriding unions as evil in 3.. 2..
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, it's a wash.
Unions do have a place and need in certain industries... it's just that tech isn't one of them. Anyone sufficiently competent in the tech industry can improve him/herself and get a better income over time - far faster than the typical Union could ever get you. There is a sufficient amount of work to be had out there for those who know what they're doing and can prove it... I think that only a brief 2-3 year period during the dot-bust was the main exception, in a field that has technica
Re:Aaaaand.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Tech is special, because we're tech workers and we're special.
Tech jobs are being outsourced faster than shit through a goose. Working conditions are suffering, job satisfaction is suffering, their work week is getting longer, pay is lagging, and we don't need to organize, dammit! Because we're special.
Re: (Score:-1)
If you "organize" the jobs will move offshore even faster.
But go right ahead, make yourselves even less competitive.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
We're not "special" - our circumstances and mechanisms just happen to be unique. Just the way it is.
Yup - there's outsourcing, but 9/10 times, it comes back to bite the corporations that do it, and bites them right in the ass... usually in a spectacularly expensive way. Outsourcing is often touted as a big, bad boogeyman, but it has been around for what, 10-15 years now? Given that amount of time, you'd think that the entire global tech industry would be based in Mumbai or Hyderabad by now - yet it isn't. T
Re:Aaaaand.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:0)
And if they suck out too much of the money, they go bankrupt and get replaced by someone who wasn't so dumb.
I don't fear outsourcing, I fear falling behind the curve.
Unions aren't going to help that, they just give you another boss. If I was low-skill and in an industry where becoming better wouldn't matter that much, like factory work (which I have done), I'd understand the union's place. In tech? The unions can forget about it. Half the people advocating them are only doing so because they're clueless
Re: (Score:0)
Its a Darwinist world. HP chose to infect itself with MBA. Now they will die off in a matter of years.
Also, America chose to infect itself with NY. Maybe Trump can keep NY in check. They certainly scream like Greek Sirens because that is their core capability. If Trump does not suceed, well, too bad. Darwin.
Re: (Score:0)
... you'd think that the entire global tech industry would be based in Mumbai or Hyderabad by now - yet it isn't. That's why I'm not too worried that the next 20 years would somehow magically drain all the available work to India (or wherever).
*cough* china *cough*
Re: (Score:0)
Tech jobs are being outsourced faster than shit through a goose.
Only low skill tech jobs are being outsourced. If the bottom of the barrel wants to unionize, fine by me.
As for the high skill tech jobs, get good or get out.
Re: (Score:2)
See, here's the thing: It's the wages at the bottom that set a floor for the wages the "high skill tech jobs" are paid. If there's a race to the bottom, you're on the short bus, boyo.
Re: (Score:0)
See, here's the thing: It's the wages at the bottom that set a floor for the wages the "high skill tech jobs" are paid. If there's a race to the bottom, you're on the short bus, boyo.
Haha, you wish. Like the wages of workers at fast food places set a floor for the wages of executive chefs at four star restaurants? Get real.
Wages at the bottom set wages at the bottom, nothing more, because there's a vast oversupply of folks with only basic skills. At the top, there's very inadequate supply and booming demand, so it's still a sellers' market if you've got the skills people need.
Re: (Score:2)
Tech workers see themselves as the "executive chefs at four star restaurants", when they're really just the bus boys. Even the best of them are just workers. You're not going to be on the cover of any magazine or get a reality TV show of you writing code.
Some people are still living in the '90s.
Re: (Score:0)
Tech workers see themselves as the "executive chefs at four star restaurants", when they're really just the bus boys. Even the best of them are just workers. You're not going to be on the cover of any magazine or get a reality TV show of you writing code.
Nope, I sure won't. Instead I address technical conferences and write patents. As kids these days would say, "W00T!"
Anyway, have fun with your sour grapes. I'm off to help my fellow "just workers" build some more world changing products.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:0)
Working conditions are suffering, job satisfaction is suffering, their work week is getting longer, pay is lagging
All of these trends are exactly opposite for me and other people in the industry whom I know personally.
I guess we're special, after all.
Re: (Score:2)
So you'd rather have US technology sector look like Detroit. Union jobs ensure that the union bosses live well and the workers still get screwed as the jobs move overseas anyways. Only difference is the risk of taking the entire company down to foreign competition instead of individual roles within the company because the company gets locked-in to whatever staffing model existed when times were good.
If your job can be done cheaper elsewhere, it will be. It's only a matter of time, and protectionism and unio
Re:Aaaaand.. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I'd rather have US workers in a system more like Germany's. a country of 80 million people that exports about as much as the United States w/ 350 million.
Don't let right-wing media delude you regarding organized labor. It's the main reason workers anywhere have a decent standard of living.
Re: (Score:1)
That's a bit misleading. German trade to Austria and Denmark is export. Microsoft sales from Washington to California are domestic. Germany is exporting so much *because* it's smaller !
That said, German labor relations are a lot healthier than most. Not a European thing, though: French unions are even worse than US unions, and don't shun violence. Ask Air France; strikers (with union backing) physically attacked managers.
Re: (Score:3)
And the US's exports are from an entire continent-sized country, not just a relatively-small country the size of Germany...
Wirklich ? (Score:0)
Germany consumes its nation in high-speed hamster wheels. Women are consumed in offices and factories; have no time to raise kids. Germans are now replaced by 1 million Arabs just this year.
Similarly, Japan and Korea transform their flesh into massive amounts of consumer goods. In 100 years, there will be neither Germany, nor Korea nor Japan.
Another gem, in the place I live the auto factor workers earn more than the supporting software engineers. It's a shitplace and the smart people move somewhere else. I