The Stranger has learned that last month the $37-billion Redmond-based software behemoth quietly withdrew its support for House bill 1515, the anti-gay-discrimination bill currently under consideration by the Washington State legislature, after being pressured by the Evangelical Christian pastor of a suburban megachurch.
You mean it's that easy? I got an idea...Let's all march on Redmond and threaten to boycott Microsoft...unless they fix all of these unnecessary s
Maybe. Just Maybe. The pastor was heard and M$ decided he made a good point.
I don't know the guy. So I can't say how bad he is. But you certainly sound very negative.
There is no national gay agenda. I'm sure we could find gay people on both sides of the issue. Are we so desperate to split up our society into little small pieces to fight one another? Does it have to be the bible-crusaders against human rights for gays? I would imagine there are a lot of bible-thumpers who would never hurt another human bei
I would imagine there are a lot of bible-thumpers who would never hurt another human being, gay or not. And until told otherwise, I'd assume this pastor is one of them.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but here's a quote from the good Pastor, during the Senate Hearing on HB1515, on March 22nd:
"Homosexuals have never been considered one-fifth of a human being,"
(He then went on to say that homosexuals want to molest young boys.)
Sorry, but with that sort of intolerance, this man has no right to call him
why don't real christians band together and have fuckers like him excommunicated and arrested?
I suspect it's because more people that call themselves "christian" agree with him than you think they do.
In my mind, just being a christian is endorsement of this guy and Fred Phelps and George W. Bush and all of the other fundamentalist cocksuckers out there that want to throw out the constitution and replace it with the bible.
While I am not Christian myself, I think I find the statement: In my mind, just being a christian is endorsement of this guy: wholly offensive. Just because there are a bunch of rotten apples in the position of power/leadership in the Christian community does not mean the entire community (or the faith) is bad.
For your convenience, I am Jewish.
Other then that, a good lynchin of bastards who want to take away the rights of others because they are different (and pose no real threat to anyone else) wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Unfortunately the reasonable middle isn't the ones out picketing the funerals of gay people. (Fred Phelps) They're not the one's on TV saying that a gay couple adopting a kid is "violence against the child." (The late Pope) They're not the ones that are saying gay people should be put in jail. (2004 Texas GOP platform)
The reasonable middle is fairly silent on these issues, and so it is the whackjob-fringe groups that get all the press and the air time.
The same is true on the other side of the fence. The most passionate are out marching, protesting, lobbying for equal treatment. Your average gay man or woman is pretty normal, and I bet many heteros would never be able to pick them out.
then why aren't you doing something about all these people that are giving you a bad name? is it that "the meek shall inherit the earth" horseshit that's keeping you from taking action?
Just because someone disagrees with homosexuality on principle, doesn't mean they hate anyone.
What principle would that be? The principle of meddling in others' affairs? The principle that two men can't be romantically involved because oh gross which one's the girl!?
Now the homosexuals are saying they are the "good" and that Christians are evil.
Here's a deal: you can both be good. I'll let you out of wearing the shoe on the other foot, being as I'm a soft touch.
When the Phelps clan goes to some poor guy's funeral and loudly pickets in front of his family, holding signs and chanting "God Hates Fags," that's hate.
When the same people want to put up a monument in a public park celebrating the date "Matthew Shepard entered Hell," that's hate.
When parents kick their teenage children out of their home, as happened to more than one friend of mine, that's hate.
The reasonable middle is fairly silent on these issues, and so it is the whackjob-fringe groups that get all the press and the air time.
It's been my experience that, first, the reasonable middle isn't aware that there are perfectly valid interpretations of the Bible that do not excoriate homosexuality (it helps if you learn enough Koine Greek to read Romans and know enough about first century culture to understand Paul's worldview). Consequently, they're afraid to take on the anti-gay groups on a Biblica
But then why do no mainstream christian groups ever take action against people like this? Kick him out of the church, make sure that his voice is never heard again? It's not like that can't be done. Look at how atheists are treated.
If christians really thought this guy was wrong this story wouldn't even exist. They all agree with him, whether they know it or not.
Personally, I find the slander of Christians on this board no different from the slander of gays that you hear from some supposed Christians. It's disgusting and pathetic - -from whoever does it to whoever is the target. I'll stop if you stop:)
Oh wait, saying that homosexuality is a mortal sin and that this "pastor" isn't slander in your world, is it?
Religion is just an excuse for bigotry. Some also require groupthink or the forsaking of intellectual pursuits. Others don't, but that doesn't make them a
They all agree with him, whether they know it or not.
You gotta really stop with the "they all" comments. Not every Christian person has a problem with gays. There might be a legitimate poll out there that gives rough numbers - but I would bet that you couldn't legitmately say "most". It tends to be that the bigots who don't want gays to get equal rights are the loudest voices - while most of us are like "Hey I hope the best for gays...now let me go back to watching Enterprise." Don't let a bunch of loud mouths make you think all of Christiandom is a bad thing.
Don't let a bunch of loud mouths make you think all of Christiandom is a bad thing.
I'm not. I'm letting a bunch of loudmouths and almost 30 years of living in the bible belt, where every single person I've met that describes themselves as a christian has also been a hardcore bigot, make me think that.
My opinion might be harsh and heavily biased, but it's not just based on what I see in the news. I've lived around this shit all my life and I've been discriminated against myself for being a non-christian
Hate may breed hate, but you can't justify hate with any creed, especially one which is marketed as a path towards inner peace. The only thing churches do is teach you reasons for hating other people and pumping up your own self-esteem.
Furthermore, the concept of "sin" is a construct created by ruling priests to induce guilt and thus obedience in followers. That's so obvious to me that I don't understand how otherwise logical people can fall for it.
He's got a point, though. It's true that Christians aren't all against the teaching of evolution nor against homosexual behaviors, however the truth is that the leaders of most protestant Christian churches teach and believe in creation. And all of the major Christian church denominations (including Catholicism) denounce homosexuality. Oh, yes they say they love the sinner but hate the sin. But the number of family disownments and suicides of homosexuals who grew up in a Christian family tell a differen
I believe part of the problem is that the question is framed in an inflammatory manner. By saying that gays want "gay marriage" then conservatives can say gays are trying to undermine the institution of marriage. However, if you REMOVE the word "marriage" and instead just start calling it civil rights (which is really what it is), then most people would shrug and say, "Oh sure. Gays deserve civil rights".
So, let's be clear on this. Gays are not interested in someone being able to declare their partnerships
Don't let a bunch of loud mouths make you think all of Christiandom is a bad thing.
True, but on the flip side, Christians need to understand that unless they speak up, the loudmouths will speak for them. I'm not saying you have to be loud, but silence itself is a position.
You mean excommunication? I'm not up to speed on the details of Christianity, but I don't know of anyone but the Catholic Church who has a mechanism for excommunicating members. Christianity is a fragmented religion with no corporeal governing body with that power.
As for athiests, they're frequently treated like anyone else. I should know, because I was one for a while.
It is impossible to "kick him out" of the Christian church, because there is no central authority to define who is or who is not part of the church. If he believes in the trinity, he's a Christian. In fact, even if he doesn't believe this, he can still call himself a Christian because there's nobody to stop him (nobody owns a trademark on the name).
What can happen, however, is that he can be kicked out of one specific Christian organization. For example, it is possible for someone to be kicked out of th
People often talk about "Christians" as if they were all of one mind. That's as silly as saying "all Americans believe this" or "all black people think that". People interpret the bible and the teachings of respected elders differently, so it is very common for people who all believe they are following the teachings of Christ to have very different opinions on some matters. This is one of those matters. Then stop placing yourself in the same group as this guy. Stop calling yourself Christian. Call yoursel
Stop putting undue pressure on him. christians don't organize their thoughts, the hebrews and early christians did that for them 4000 years ago and 2000 years ago, respectively.
Then stop placing yourself in the same group as this guy. Stop calling yourself Christian. Call yourself Anglican, or a follower of Christ, but do everything you can to distance yourself from these types of people.
I will certainly not.
Consider this: You can ask two people of a particular political leaning [republical|democrat|etc] their views on a subject and get different answers... that does not mean either one should stop saying they are aligned with that political group [republican|democrat|etc].
Over the years I have come to realize that we really needs the weirdos on the far right fighting the weirdos on the far left - the constant turmoil prevents complacency, and lets us adapt to new situations more quickly.
It is a real pain sometimes, agreed. (Although of course you and I would differ on which group does more damage...)
Other then that, a good lynchin of bastards who want to take away the rights of others because they are different (and pose no real threat to anyone else) wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Oh the irony.
Well, what's a little extrajudicial terror against unpopular groups? Anyone for the formation of the GayGayGay*?
lynchin a group of oppressors is not, imho, a bad thing. Imagine if someone went out and lynched a few nazi's back in the day - would you cry for them? Imagine if someone lynched a few KKK members, would you cry for them? Hurting a group who likes to oppress people is not the same thing the group does. The group is oppressing people for nonsensical reasons - my desire to oppress them is because they are hurting innocents - thusly not being innocents themselves.
lynchin a group of oppressors is not, imho, a bad thing.
Extrajudicial lynching is a bad thing, a very bad thing. That is the way of lawlessness. When society devolves into lawlessness, everybody suffers. If, on the other hand, said individuals committed a crime, are tried, found guilty and executed, then OK.
Imagine if someone went out and lynched a few nazi's back in the day - would you cry for them?
That would have been a war crime. See the answer above. It is a bad thing.
Just because there are a bunch of rotten apples in the position of power/leadership in the Christian community does not mean the entire community (or the faith) is bad.
When you have as many bad apples as Christianity does, it might be time to take a good hard look and wonder if maybe it's the barrel that's rotten, and it's the good apples that are the exception...
"In my mind, just being a christian is endorsement of this guy"
It is an endorsement to state you are a Christian without immediately distancing yourself from the unpleasant kind of Christian, since that is the perception of many outsiders to the religion. It doesn't mean you're a bad person if you go around announcing your religious beliefs in an ambiguous way, but you certainly are doing a bad thing. People should be precise about religion as it's a subject with a lot of strong emotions attached.
Do not underestimate the value of print statements for debugging.
Don't have aesthetic convulsions when using them, either.
What does he have on you, Bill? (Score:4, Interesting)
You mean it's that easy? I got an idea...Let's all march on Redmond and threaten to boycott Microsoft...unless they fix all of these unnecessary s
Re:What does he have on you, Bill? (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't know the guy. So I can't say how bad he is. But you certainly sound very negative.
There is no national gay agenda. I'm sure we could find gay people on both sides of the issue. Are we so desperate to split up our society into little small pieces to fight one another? Does it have to be the bible-crusaders against human rights for gays? I would imagine there are a lot of bible-thumpers who would never hurt another human bei
Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but here's a quote from the good Pastor, during the Senate Hearing on HB1515, on March 22nd:
(He then went on to say that homosexuals want to molest young boys.)
Sorry, but with that sort of intolerance, this man has no right to call him
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2, Insightful)
I suspect it's because more people that call themselves "christian" agree with him than you think they do.
In my mind, just being a christian is endorsement of this guy and Fred Phelps and George W. Bush and all of the other fundamentalist cocksuckers out there that want to throw out the constitution and replace it with the bible.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:5, Insightful)
For your convenience, I am Jewish.
Other then that, a good lynchin of bastards who want to take away the rights of others because they are different (and pose no real threat to anyone else) wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately the reasonable middle isn't the ones out picketing the funerals of gay people. (Fred Phelps) They're not the one's on TV saying that a gay couple adopting a kid is "violence against the child." (The late Pope) They're not the ones that are saying gay people should be put in jail. (2004 Texas GOP platform)
The reasonable middle is fairly silent on these issues, and so it is the whackjob-fringe groups that get all the press and the air time.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
What principle would that be? The principle of meddling in others' affairs? The principle that two men can't be romantically involved because oh gross which one's the girl! ?
Here's a deal: you can both be good. I'll let you out of wearing the shoe on the other foot, being as I'm a soft touch.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Oh please, you don't know hate from hinola.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1)
It's been my experience that, first, the reasonable middle isn't aware that there are perfectly valid interpretations of the Bible that do not excoriate homosexuality (it helps if you learn enough Koine Greek to read Romans and know enough about first century culture to understand Paul's worldview). Consequently, they're afraid to take on the anti-gay groups on a Biblica
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
But then why do no mainstream christian groups ever take action against people like this? Kick him out of the church, make sure that his voice is never heard again? It's not like that can't be done. Look at how atheists are treated.
If christians really thought this guy was wrong this story wouldn't even exist. They all agree with him, whether they know it or not.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
I'll stop if you stop
Oh wait, saying that homosexuality is a mortal sin and that this "pastor" isn't slander in your world, is it?
Religion is just an excuse for bigotry. Some also require groupthink or the forsaking of intellectual pursuits. Others don't, but that doesn't make them a
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:5, Insightful)
You gotta really stop with the "they all" comments. Not every Christian person has a problem with gays. There might be a legitimate poll out there that gives rough numbers - but I would bet that you couldn't legitmately say "most". It tends to be that the bigots who don't want gays to get equal rights are the loudest voices - while most of us are like "Hey I hope the best for gays...now let me go back to watching Enterprise." Don't let a bunch of loud mouths make you think all of Christiandom is a bad thing.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
I'm not. I'm letting a bunch of loudmouths and almost 30 years of living in the bible belt, where every single person I've met that describes themselves as a christian has also been a hardcore bigot, make me think that.
My opinion might be harsh and heavily biased, but it's not just based on what I see in the news. I've lived around this shit all my life and I've been discriminated against myself for being a non-christian
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Hate may breed hate, but you can't justify hate with any creed, especially one which is marketed as a path towards inner peace. The only thing churches do is teach you reasons for hating other people and pumping up your own self-esteem.
Furthermore, the concept of "sin" is a construct created by ruling priests to induce guilt and thus obedience in followers. That's so obvious to me that I don't understand how otherwise logical people can fall for it.
Thank you
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1)
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1)
So, let's be clear on this. Gays are not interested in someone being able to declare their partnerships
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
True, but on the flip side, Christians need to understand that unless they speak up, the loudmouths will speak for them. I'm not saying you have to be loud, but silence itself is a position.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1)
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1)
As for athiests, they're frequently treated like anyone else. I should know, because I was one for a while.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1)
What can happen, however, is that he can be kicked out of one specific Christian organization. For example, it is possible for someone to be kicked out of th
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1, Flamebait)
Then stop placing yourself in the same group as this guy. Stop calling yourself Christian. Call yoursel
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
It would help if you were to quote a correct definition of Guilt by Association [reference.com].
And in case one refutation of your BS isn't enough, here's another [die.net].
Nice try, though.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
You said:...
Um...no I didn't.
Scroll up, Einstein...the quote you're attributing to me was actually posted by kin_korn_karn.
For God's sake, organize your thoughts.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
For God's sake, organize your thoughts.
Stop putting undue pressure on him. christians don't organize their thoughts, the hebrews and early christians did that for them 4000 years ago and 2000 years ago, respectively.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
I will certainly not.
Consider this: You can ask two people of a particular political leaning [republical|democrat|etc] their views on a subject and get different answers... that does not mean either one should stop saying they are aligned with that political group [republican|democrat|etc].
Als
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:5, Interesting)
Over the years I have come to realize that we really needs the weirdos on the far right fighting the weirdos on the far left - the constant turmoil prevents complacency, and lets us adapt to new situations more quickly.
It is a real pain sometimes, agreed. (Although of course you and I would differ on which group does more damage...)
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Oh the irony.
Well, what's a little extrajudicial terror against unpopular groups? Anyone for the formation of the GayGayGay*?
*Say it fast.
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
Extrajudicial lynching is a bad thing, a very bad thing. That is the way of lawlessness. When society devolves into lawlessness, everybody suffers. If, on the other hand, said individuals committed a crime, are tried, found guilty and executed, then OK.
Imagine if someone went out and lynched a few nazi's back in the day - would you cry for them?
That would have been a war crime. See the answer above. It is a bad thing.
Imagine if someone lynch
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:2)
When you have as many bad apples as Christianity does, it might be time to take a good hard look and wonder if maybe it's the barrel that's rotten, and it's the good apples that are the exception...
Re:Quote from Pastor Ken Hutcherson (Score:1)
It is an endorsement to state you are a Christian without immediately distancing yourself from the unpleasant kind of Christian, since that is the perception of many outsiders to the religion.
It doesn't mean you're a bad person if you go around announcing your religious beliefs in an ambiguous way, but you certainly are doing a bad thing.
People should be precise about religion as it's a subject with a lot of strong emotions attached.