The FBI Feared Communist Infiltration of EPCOT (muckrock.com) 112
v3rgEz writes: In 1981, Walt Disney World was getting ready to unveil a new gem in its crown of amusement parks, the Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow, or EPCOT. Revolving around a massive sphere called "Spaceship Earth" and a lagoon that initially called for cultural installations from nine countries, EPCOT was intended to be the ultimate harmonious international village, a shining example of global unity. Naturally the FBI had a problem with it. FOIA'd documents recently released to MuckRock show that as early as December 1979, almost three full years before the October 1, 1982 opening of EPCOT, the bureau was concerned with possible Soviet involvement in the endeavor. And even after Soviet involvement was ruled out, the FBI began to worry about Chinese influences.
That explains a lot. (Score:5, Funny)
The only thing to fear... (Score:5, Insightful)
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You just made the list
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I don't know, maybe 1981 - height of the cold war, maximum million-fold-apocalypse MAD, Star Wars SDI fantasy that meant actual warfare, recent history of Vietnam and Cuban soldiers sponsored by the Soviets to fight in Angola, dozens of ongoing and major conflicts around the world between the super powers, active spy rings on both sides. Everything you could imagine and more.
Re: The only thing to fear... (Score:1)
Why the fuck were you poking around in all those places to start with? You can't use those as a reason when you first decided to involve yourselves. Get the hell out of the rest of the world. Go hide in your own mountains and deserts and leave the others alone.
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This posts, and most replies to this article in general, directly reflect the growing level of disconnect from the Cold-War era.
I won't say that the USA is "perfect" or even "good" by nature. As a "superpower", there is a general expectation from the world community that the country steps in to prevent genocide, render aid, and so on. There's also a strong desire for oil and the resources that go along with the mass of industry from manufacturing large capital goods and vast agriculture.
The cold war began a
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Right. They were so totally satisfied with the situation at the end of WW2 that they didn't try to starve Berlin into submission three years later. Prague spring? Hungary 1956? I must have imagined them.
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The Soviets were cautious in aggression, but they did do things that were either in their stated sphere of influence or had plausible deniability. They supported North Korea and North Vietnam, and other places. Granted that Khruschev's "We will bury you" was misunderstood, it's hard to misunderstand the Brezhnev doctrine that countries would go from capitalism to Communism but not back again.
The Soviet Union also liked to demonstrate its military might, which was probably exaggerated to make the Soviet
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Having lived in 1981 with a memory of the events of that era, I can say you are clueless about what ordinary Americans thought about such things. It certainly wasn't the "height of the Cold War", which could best be used to describe the events of the Cuban Missile Crisis some twenty years earlier. The Vietnam War was over. The Soviet Union was going through "Perestroika" and frankly was even seen as somewhat hopeful that perhaps the Soviet states would actually get some much needed freedoms they lacked
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Perestroika is 1981? I think not. As someone that remembers the time well, I never hear the word Perestroika until Gorbachev was President. That was sometime in 1985 IIRC. Most definitely the later half of the 80's, under Regan. Definitely not during the Carter era or early Reagan.
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Scared? no.
Scared? Yes.
We have politicians trying to eliminate cryptography while crying about brown people who haven't even used it. These politicians will be re-elected, because brown people.
We're sexually molested and divested of snowglobes if we try to fly. Because scary brown people.
We lose our shit over "assault rifles" in spite of the fact that they're the cause of an absolutely tiny fraction of gun deaths.
We scream and cry about dead soldiers when we lose less than we have in single battles in prior wars o
industrial espionage (Score:1)
Well, China has engaged in very extensive industrial espionage in western countries. I bet Russia's back in the industrial espionage game. Heck even Israel engages in industrial espionage against the United States.
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They know others through knowing themselves and what they'd do.
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The only thing to fear is fear itself.
Hence its supreme usefulness to government agencies.
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The US government uses the Boogey Man to scare it's people into going along with whatever laws they shove down our throats. First it was communists and now it is terrorists. Americans are far, far more likely to die falling in their bathtub than by terrorist attack.
So where is the war on bathtub slips? Sounds absurd doesn't it? So why let them take away all of our rights for something far less dangerous? We put up with massive risk in terms of getting into automobiles, yet people just ignore it totally
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Because we finally learned a lesson, after two world wars... And we've successfully avoided a third one. The US military acts as surrogate for numerous other nations with little or none. And the world has been far more peaceful for more than half a century, as a result.
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How about "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance", or "For evil to succeed, good men need only do nothing."
Seems you have forgotten those wise words as well.
Re:The only thing to fear... addendum... (Score:2)
Oh, guns are fetishized because for almost all of human existence they would have been considered magic... you point a stick and boom, something dies. While it's not really magic, it is really the power of life or death and many people can not resist owning that...
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a bit of trivia from Jim Butchers The Dresden Files
Karen Murphy (who is about 5 foot tall and lightly built) has a P90 that she uses as a goto weapon when dealing with the lesser Things That Go Bump In The Night.
as long as you can hold it and pull the trigger a Gun does not care who you are
Re:The only thing to fear... addendum... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's silly. When I use a gun, I point it, pull the trigger, and boom, a paper target gets a hole in it. Why would I want something to die? That wouldn't be very nice.
Claiming that "the power of life or death" is a fetish is ridiculous. Every driver on the road has that power. Every plumber, electrician, and Boy Scout has that power. Every airplane pilot has a lot of that power. The simple truth is that humans are fragile creatures, and the simple safety measures we follow daily can easily be bypassed if one has the motivation to do so. The realization of how close one comes to death every day is terrifying.
That's what scares people, not a magic boom-stick.
What distinguishes firearms, though, is that they are themselves an easy target. Politicians, pundits, and concerned citizens can reassign their fear, allowing themselves to think of cars as "safe", because the really scary thing is a tube that makes loud noises. By concentrating all of the fear into one scapegoat, the rest of society seems perfectly livable.
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Claiming that "the power of life or death" is a fetish is ridiculous. Every driver on the road has that power.
No one sells cars claiming, "The only thing that stops a bad driver with a car is a good driver with a car."
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...So you've never seen an ad boasting about how this particular vehicle's safety features will protect your children from the bad things on the road?
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That's silly. When I use a gun, I point it, pull the trigger, and boom, a paper target gets a hole in it. Why would I want something to die? That wouldn't be very nice.
If your fetish is limited to putting holes in paper targets, then why don't you use a BB gun? A blow-gun? A bow and some arrows? A pointy stick? Some well-thrown playing cards?
Oh, those would take significantly more skill, and that skill cannot easily be transferred to using the same device for easily killing people.
Note that I am not reasoning with you—That is impossible. I am pointing out your logical fallacies for everyone else.
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...is fear itself. Seems these wise words have been largely forgotten. As a nation, the USA is the most lily-livered scaredy cats out there. I'm not talking about individuals, just the national characteristic. Why else spend such vast sums on a military that has more or less nothing to do? (and for which idle hands the devil makes plenty of work, starting wars it can't finish and general meddling). Why else are guns so fetishised? Why else is so much effort being put into monitoring everyone's trivial business? Why else are fingers pointed at harmless scapegoats like ordinary muslims? My country, right or wrong? Think about it.
What sets apart the men from the boys is the cost of their toys. And once you have a toy budget, you have to spend it or lose it. War games does not consume battleships or submarines and very few aircraft. Now draw your conclusions.
What were they smoking? (Score:1)
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Your tax dollars at work.
Drooling idiocy.
So how much has the FBI changed since then? (Score:3)
They're much worse now.
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Exactly. Basically since its conception the FBI has been nothing more than America's version of the secret police. Throughout its history the FBI has been used to suppress dissent. It may have had noble goals at its creation, but hoover and his successors along with high-level govt officials from both parties, over the past ~100 years, have shaped it into an organization which is a fundamental threat to basic freedom.
Today its baiting ignorant people into "islamic terror plots" which they clearly have no ca
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Hoover wanted his personal army, nothing more.
So what? (Score:5, Interesting)
This doesn't indicate that the FBI listened in on any private conversations, blacklisted anyone, tried to get anyone fired, spread lies about anyone, or otherwise did the bad things that people usually think of when they complain about the FBI. And they feared the Soviets and Chinese would infiltrate because, you know, EPCOT has national pavilions run by those countries and staffed by their citizens. And when they found out that pavilions were not allowed to be political, they then decided the Soviets were not a threat. They don't seem to have thought the Chinese were a threat for very long, either.
Basically, this whole thing is just a complaint about the FBI doing their job.
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This doesn't indicate that the FBI listened in on any private conversations, blacklisted anyone, tried to get anyone fired, spread lies about anyone, or otherwise did the bad things that people usually think of when they complain about the FBI. And they feared the Soviets and Chinese would infiltrate because, you know, EPCOT has national pavilions run by those countries and staffed by their citizens. And when they found out that pavilions were not allowed to be political, they then decided the Soviets were not a threat. They don't seem to have thought the Chinese were a threat for very long, either.
Basically, this whole thing is just a complaint about the FBI doing their job.
Preventing political messages?
yep... they where doing their cold war job.
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Preventing political messages? yep... they where doing their cold war job.
Are you actually admitting that we no longer hold the FBI to working within the framework of the Constitution? If so, why do we incarcerate Americans for any crimes if we allow treason (as defined by the intentional undermining of our Constitution) to operate with impunity?
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Check out Amendment 1.
I'm very familiar with the document. In fact, I am very fond of it.
Now if the FBI was to say they were keeping an eye on these folks because they had intel they were up to nefarious purposes, then yes.
And yet, after all this time, we do know that they FBI routinely acted against people like Martin Luther King, Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger and John Lennon among many others without "intel" of any kind other than a gut feeling by Jedgar himself.
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And yet, after all this time, we do know that they FBI routinely acted against people like Martin Luther King, Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger and John Lennon among many others without "intel" of any kind other than a gut feeling by Jedgar himself.
And we know that Benjamin F read the mail of suspected Tories... I guess the Amendments may have been tongue in cheek?
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And we know that Benjamin F read the mail of suspected Tories... I guess the Amendments may have been tongue in cheek?
The FBI saw that these people were blacklisted and in MLK's case the FBI deliberately tried to drive him to commit suicide.
But even if we were to accept that Franklin did break what would eventually become our law of the land, the argument that two wrongs make a right is an absurd proposition.
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My cheeky comment was more to open a discussion on one aspect that always troubled me - the founders talked a good game, but they certainly didn't walk it. This well known violation seems at odds with their ideals.
As I mentioned previously, what Franklin did does not excuse anyone else from committing the same act. Yes, I agree with you. The founders touted the "All men are created equal" line but then ensured that slaves were not defined as men.
However, and let's be clear on this point, none of this has any relevance of the topic of the moment. We have laws in place which dictate how our government is allowed to operate. And if we can prosecute and then jail Americans for breaking many of our laws where no tangi
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The founders touted the "All men are created equal" line but then ensured that slaves were not defined as men.
It should be noted that while slaves were not defined as "men", neither were: women, anyone under 21, anyone not propertied and self-sufficient, and certainly no convicted felons, IIRC. You might also note that while many assume only white propertied males over 21, that was not exactly the case either.
...we can damn well prosecute and then incarcerate those who break our laws regardless of their claim that they were simply following orders.
I believe this is finally coming round, and we can only hope everyone is held to the same yardstick.
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Basically, this whole thing is just a complaint about the FBI doing their job.
Would you mind explaining exactly what you think the FBI is expected to do as part of their job?
Last I heard, having a political philosophy, of just about any kind, was protected by the Constitution. Can you imagine the uproar we would see if the FBI targeted the entire conservative bloc in this country? Conversely, when the FBI went after the left, no one seemed to care enough to do anything about restricting these actions.
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The FBI went after the KKK, and plenty of other far-right wing organizations.
Conversely, while right-wing terrorists are demonized, left-wing terrorists get hired as professors to spread their influence on the next generation:
http://theothermccain.com/2013... [theothermccain.com]
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The KKK is an extreme left-wing organization led by democrats, and has been since its inception. White democrat politicians from the south are almost universally racist even today.
There is an extreme level of willful ignorance shown in your comment that makes me wonder if you are trolling or actually that misinformed.
Fucking Poe's Law - How does it work?
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The FBI went after the KKK, and plenty of other far-right wing organizations.
Indeed. And in those cases, they went after violent assholes who lynched people, bombed churches and generally broke the law with impunity as no jury in their locations would ever convict them.
Conversely, while right-wing terrorists are demonized, left-wing terrorists get hired as professors to spread their influence on the next generation
Oh, you mean like when the FBI tried to force Martin Luther King to commit suicide? Or when they went after people like Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, or John Lennon?
No, you're talking about protesters from a time when the FBI routinely invented evidence against people. Of course, common sense should have told you th
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Sorry, but no. Most, if not all those named have admitted their guilt.
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Sorry, but no. Most, if not all those named have admitted their guilt.
Yes. I have no doubt that you believe what you posted given the level of credibility for the sources where you get your information.
I love the fact that it actually makes sense to you that people who were convicted of felony murder are walking around free in our country. If only Charles Manson had been a liberal, he'd undoubtedly be president of a university by now, right?
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By all means, provide your source that supports your ridiculous claims.
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By all means, provide your source that supports your ridiculous claims.
If I had made any ridiculous claims, I would be glad to supply sources. But since everything I brought to your attention is in the public record, maybe you should shun those moronic sites you have been reading and try reality for a while.
FBI's "Suicide Letter" to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and the Dangers of Unchecked Surveillance [eff.org]
Pete Seeger [timesunion.com]
Woody Guthrie [web.ncf.ca]
John Lennon [fbi.gov]
Even more black people were lynched in the U.S. than previously thought, study finds [washingtonpost.com]
The Murder of Emmett Till [loc.gov]
There's
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Your ranting still doesn't detract one bit from what I've said, and fails to disprove one single case I cited.
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Your ranting still doesn't detract one bit from what I've said, and fails to disprove one single case I cited.
Only in your own mind, only in yours.
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There is no Russian pavilion. There have been rumors and plans of one, but it has never been built.
I keep waiting for the SJWs to complain about the lack of an African pavilion. There's kind of a pit stop space that could house one, but it's never been built. I suppose the counter argument might be that they instead built an entire theme park for Africa, Animal Kingdom, but a fair amount of that park isn't specifically set in Africa although the Tree of Life and the safari part of it give it an African d
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Africa isn't a country
Then where do tigers come from smart guy?
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Africa isn't a country
Then where do tigers come from smart guy?
Tigers come from countries in Africa and Asia primarily. Africa is a continent. South Africa is a country in Africa.
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It might just be that the people you call SJWs are just normal, reasonable people who point out your glaring mistakes in reason and knowledge. A good example is you complaining that some people you made up are going to complain that a continent is not represented in a showcase of countries.
Hint: labelling people you don't like with some throwaway, nebulous term doesn't make you look particularly intellectually honest. It makes you look lazy, and relegates your argument to the same level of the people you
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It's funny how this same block of made-up people also pushes a made-up holiday called Kwanzaa that claims to represent a made up African culture. You might even argue I'm taking their pan-Africanism at face value.
Of course, we both know that it's perfectly logical to consider the Moroccan pavilion representative of "Africa" because, well, Morocco is in Africa, but we also know perfectly well that my made-up group of activists would object that Morocco is no more "African" than Africa-born Boer leader Paul
Re: So what? (Score:1, Insightful)
Doing what job? Making sure Americans aren't exposed to ideas from elsewhere? Especially ideas that might make them question the non-stop pro-capitalist propaganda we're all fed by our corporate media?
The FBI was a joke then and it's a very dangerous joke that isn't very funny now. They only know how to threaten dissent and dissenters, protect the rich and powerful, and of course how to manufacture terrorists so they can arrest them to justify their continued existence.
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Actually, it is an indication that they are paranoid and insane. You know, the kind of people that should be professionally evaluated whether they are a danger to society.
Who runs the country pavilions? (Score:2)
I've always wondered who runs the country pavilions. They have a slightly not-run-by-Disney feel them. Sure, you can use your magic band to pay for stuff in their food stalls and restaurants and gift shops and the employees have Disney nametags on, but it always seems sort of not quite Disney otherwise. The Chinese pavilion even more so. And AFAICT they are staffed almost entirely by nationals of the country.
I think the Chinese pavilion was there when the park opened (we went as a family in Christmas of
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Chinese pavilion surely used workers from Taiwan or Hong Kong.
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When we visited, a long time ago, the salespeople in the Chinese pavilion seemed somewhat lost and bemused at running a store in the US. They had some beautiful stuff for low prices, and seemed puzzled by the cavalier way customers tossed their way through it, apparently valuing it by the price tag rather than observing that it was well-made and very good.
National exposition (Score:2)
Interactive life size ads?
Most of the new cash went back to winning coveted US entertainment awards over the years and for more tv shows.
The internet protection was not active for a while and the wider internet wondered around... using ftp.
A lot is about staff from other nations selling food... and getting their students into the USA.
The millions of people moving past would be
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So ensure all embassy staff, trade missions and people sent to the USA can party to a US standard.
The ability of a nations staff to relate to new and popular music, hold witty conversation in English, have an understanding of alcoholic beverages and move quickly to participate in all social events seemed to be an interesting part of US co
mostly Chinese at EPCOT (Score:2)
Re: EPCOT is anything but harmonious (Score:5, Interesting)
It used to be very nice. It's the last park designed mostly by Walt's personally hired staff who remained with the company after he died. Sure, it's pro corporate but that was always one of Walt's minor character flaws. Then again, in his day American companies actually produced useful things and weren't necessarily run by sociopaths.
There were all kinds of interactive science exhibits, previews of new technologies, museum quality cultural displays, and it was bright, open, and you could hang out there all day and find stuff to see and do in every corner. It was a place to go to be very optimistic about the future.
Naturally something like that couldn't exist for long, so the people who mismanage the company these days took out most of the science stuff, most anything designed to make you think, remodeled educational things into character-laden sound byte style 'attractions' with no real meaning to them, closed or severely closed off parts of whole buildings and removed lots of the little things to do. Gotta appeal to the churro eating, Starbucks swilling masses who never want to use their brains ever.
Most of the sweeping vistas are cluttered with outdoor vending and kiosks trying to sell you garbage, and of course the optimism is gone just like the rest of the country. With metal detectors, bag searches, and the requisite fences involved in our national obsession with security theater the beautiful expansive plaza at the front entrance looks like a prison now.
I'd sarcastically say Epcot has been remade into a perfect representation of the US actually, but I do miss it from when it was really quite great.
And today... (Score:2)
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Since nobody listens to AM radio anyway, who would complain? And more important, why would anyone stop an opponent from wasting money?
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Weren't the Japanese supposed to take over then? (Score:2)
It's very strange to look back on the Cold War now -- Russia and the US wasted trillions of dollars and built a huge nuclear arsenal basically to stare each other down. If Epcot opened a few years later (mid to late 80s) I wonder if they would be targeting the Japanese pavilion as a possible hotbed of industrial espionage. When you walk through there today, you can feel a little bit of the ghost of the Japanese economic bubble. For those not old enough to remember, this was the time where there were breathl
Flip A Coin (Score:3)
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So, yeah, I wouldn't worry about those commies ... if there are any left.
Nice one :)
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I'd say the FBI are more dangerous because commies are easier to spot, due to their funny accents and pointy beards and all that.
EPCOT was scaled down form Disney's dream (Score:2)
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EPCOT as envisioned by Walt Disney was to be an actual city where people would live and work.
And coincidently, Walt was also worried that Communists may get into the city. He became a little paranoid about them after the animator's strike.
Soviets? Chinese? Oh my! (Score:1)
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Back then it wasn't so clear a free economy would decimate a communist one in productivity and producing health and wealth for the average person. And all that conveniently skips the meme aspect of how communism "sounds good" to people.